Mamiya 7II or Fuji GSW690III

[tomh2008]

Hi

I'm new to MF rangefinders, so I need some help deciding what's going to be my best option. I have a Canon 5d which I'd probably keep, but want to get a MF rangefinder for landscapes.

Mamiya 7II with either 43 or 50mm lens

Or

Fuji GSW690III

I prefer the format of the Fuji over the Mamiya as I like the shape/ratio of the 35mm frame.

The Mamiya isn't pretty is it! - but is much more compact that the Fuji - am I right? Anyone actually got a pic of the Fuji in hand for size comparison?

I'm renting a Mamiya 7ii with a 43mm lens this weekend to see if I like it - no real chance of doing that with the Fuji as they're much more rare.

What are the lenses like? Both are going to be pretty superb I guess, but the advantage of interchangeable lenses on the Mamiya shouldn't be ignored.

The Mamiya has the option of the panoramic adapter, but with the Fuji and a whole 6x9cm to play with one can just crop.

The Mamiya is also metered isn't it - the Fuji not? is the Fuji completely manual with no electronics whatsoever? This would be an attraction.

I'd mainly be using it for landscapes / city etc photography, so even though they're interchangeable, I'd stick with one wide angle lens if I got the Mamiya. 43 or 50mm? Which one's best and how do they compare to the Fuji's?

How's the build quality? Did I read somewhere the Mamiya was plastic? And the Fuji plastic but with a metal frame underneath? What about the Fuji's lens - is this plastic barrelled?

Then there's cost. Here in the UK, a good used Mamiya 7II with the 43mm lens will be at least £1500. The Fuji only about £600?, but only if I can find one! The less I spend on the camera the more I can spend on a decent scanner?!

They still make the Mamiya, so servicing and parts should be easy - what about the Fuji - I'm guessing long out of production, does anyone have any repair issues?



I'd be interested to hear your views - especially from people who have used/owned both.


Thanks in advance

[david b]

I currently own a GSW690III. I previously owned a Mamiya 7II with the 50mm lens.

The 43mm or the 50mm lens alone will cost more that the Fuji camera.

The mamiya is metered, the fuji is not.

Both are easily hand held and both are relatively light.

Both will produce very sharp negatives but the Fuji is a bit
more contrasty.

Mamiya will still service the 7 and 7II for a flat fee if memory serves me
right. Fuji will still service the 6x9 but I am unsure what they charge.

The Fuji is a very capable camera that is well built and very easy to use. It produces 8 negatives that will fit onto one 8x10 contact sheet. The mamiya produces 10 shots, of which only 9 will fit onto an 8x10 contact sheet.

The Fuji 65mm lens is about a 28mm on a 35mm camera.
The Mamiya 43 lens is about a 21mm on a 35mm camera.

How wide do you want your shots to be?

I don't think you could go wrong with either camera but for $1200, you can
buy the Fuji. The Mamiya 7II and 43mm will probably set you back somewhere
around $2200 to $2500.

Good luck.

[aizan]

i have the gsw690iii and tried out the mamiya 7ii with a 50mm.

do you have an enlarger and/or scanner that will handle both formats?

[tomh2008]

Thanks for the replies.

I think 28mm equiv on the Fuji is going to be sufficient, with 21mm equiv on the Mamiya almost being too wide... what is the 50mm on the Mamiya the equivalent to?

I dont have an enlarger for 6x9, but that doesn't bother me, as I'd be scanning mostly, and whatever scanner I do get will handle the 6x7 and 6x9 formats. Im thinking Coolscan 8000 or 9000??

[Doug]

Originally Posted by tomh2008

I think 28mm equiv on the Fuji is going to be sufficient, with 21mm equiv on the Mamiya almost being too wide... what is the 50mm on the Mamiya the equivalent to?

For 6x7 (56 x 69 or 70mm) you can use 2 or 2.1 as an "equivalency" multiplier. So the Mamiya's 50mm gives about the same field of view as a 24 or 25mm on the small format.

There's also the difference in lens speed to consider... may not be too important but the Fuji 65mm is f5.6

It may not matter, as you said, but FWIW my local pro lab will soup the 6x9 negs but can neither print nor scan them; 6x7 being their largest.

I have no experience with the Mamiya, but I do have the Fuji GS670III... pretty impressive bit of gear.

[dan denmark]

i have the gw690/65mm lens cam. wouldn't replace it and use it for studio work (currently photographing indigenous artwork for a book) with digital leica DL3 as backup. it has superb contrast tolerance and with fuji reala it has great ranges in the blacks. i shoot a half stop under as a rule and i can pull out as much shadow definition as i want and still have texture in my highlights. i find it more sensitive than my RB S pro and former Hass squares and the 6x9 offers plenty of room for movement even though i generally don't crop. and is hand-holdable at 1/60th in the field.

-dd

[aizan]

i take it your enlarger can handle 6x7. if you don't have other medium format cameras, i'd get the mamiya to make traditional wet prints with, even if only occasionally. that's probably less hassle than getting another enlarger.

[Tuolumne]

I own both the Fuji 690 (but not the wide-angle version) and a Mamiya 7II which I usually shoot with a 65mm lens (32mm equivalent on a 35mm camera). Although the Fuji takes awesome photos, I far prefer the Mamiya. The Fuji is a brick and weighs a ton. The Mamiya is far easier to carry. Also, since the Mamiya has its shutter in the lens it is incredibly silent and there is zero camera shake when it fires. The Mamiya is actually much easier to hand hold steady that my Leicas. When the Mamiya fires you barely have to touch the shutter button, despite which it is a very sure movement. I have never accidentally fired a shot, which is good because MF film costs alot and you don't get many photos with it.And I don't think this low weight is due to poor construction since I believe the Mamiya frame is made of titanium. Yes, the outside is plastic, but so is the Fuji.

I also really prefer cameras with built in meters, which the Mamiya has and the Fuji doesn't. The interchangeable lenses on the Mamiya may or may not be a big deal to you. It all depends on how much flexibility you want. I have the 65mm and 150mm lenses, although I use the 65mm mostly. I find the interchangeable lenses to be a plus, but not a huge one, since I mostly use the Mamiya as a landscape camera. However, having interchangeable lenses at least gives you a choice.

I don't think you will go wrong with either one, but the Mamiya to me is so much more fun and easy to shoot with that I always carry it now when I want to use MF. I should probably sell the Fuji 690.

/T

[tomh2008]

Thanks again for the replies.

I'm one day into my rental with the Mamiya 7II and the 43mm lens.

Things I'm noticing...

Bulk and weight of the Mamiya is really minimal. My Canon 5D and a decent wide angle weighs more and feels more bulky. The Mamiya is certainly easy on the shoulders and fine to carry around.

Body build quality seems ok - shame its plastic coated - the rental body I have is pretty scruffy - all sorts of dents and scratches showing through to the plastic underneath the pain. Lens build is much better though - nice chunk of metal and glass. Can see why the 43mm is expensive now!

But what about those additional viewfinders?! How plasticy and cheap does that feel? Cant beleive they cost around £300 to replace...

Main VF is OK - bright and easy to focus, but the LED lights for shutter speed seem a bit cheap and old-fashioned. I guess I'm just used to brand new DSLR viewfinder info...

And that shutter button - damn it's sensitive. Haven't had a film developed yet but my first ever shot will be of the sky as I pressed the button to activate the meter, and got a full click by accident. Oh well - had to make the 9 images left on that roll really special


I really cant decide between this or the Fuji though. Just how big and heavy is the Fuji? I'm thinking that I'd only use the Mamiya with the 43 or 50mm lens, so interchangability isnt really important to me. Hence the thinking about the Fuji....

[aizan]

i uploaded some pics comparing the size of a fuji and hexar rf. the gsw690iii weighs 1.51kg, 200g more than the mamiya w/43mm.

http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/s...ngefinder+size

i don't think you have to worry about the plastic covers on either camera.

[Turtle]

It comes down to flexibility or simplicity I think. Both will produce amazing prints, so the image area when comparing the two is fairly irrelevant unless you are printing to epic sizes. (If doing that use LF). I would personally go for the Mamiya 7 as you can change lenses. Having one lens might seem fun but for a while but when you are on that trip of a lifetime and that distant scene requires a long lens and the best you have is a 65 or 90 on the fuji you will be seriously p1ssed. They you end up cropping to somewhere smaller than 645 instead of enjoying that big neg. The Mamiya lenses are amongst the sharpest I have ever experienced, as in they floor you... I dont think there is a contest really, esp if price is not an issue. maiya 7 all the way. If you want to keep it simple, 50, 80, 150 is just that. I am on the brink of buying one myself, but every time I look at the images caugh on my RF645 I cannot sell them. Ergonomically and in terms of build, the RF645 is light years ahead IMO, but with Leica for the street stuff, I am now looking for more real estate for what I term 'posh travel photography'. Bet I end up hanging onto the RF645.... Of you can live without a long lens (I am not going to pay $800 for one) the RF645 is great with its 45 and 65 lenses. VERY sharp, bit of course smaller negs.

[thorirv]

imo, the fuji has the format over the m7, and that's the only thing.

i didn't read every word in the thread, but the mamiya shutters are practically silent, and i'm tempted to believe that they cause as little vibration as possible with moving mechanisms... the fuji shutter otoh is quite loud, whether or not it causes any/much unwanted vibrations i really can't say (i can say that i seem to squeeze a little sharper images out of the m7 but that probably has more to do with my improve tech, it's been some years since i sold the fuji)

like others have mentioned, both are capable of excellent img quality. perhaps the choice should be about 2:3 or 4:5 proportions??

[Arvay]

Vote for Fuji. Fujinons are marvellous

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Arvay

Vote for Fuji. Fujinons are marvellous

They are but according to those who have used both, they are no better and possibly slightly less sharp. Perez's tests on Hevanet bear this out. Apart from price, I just cannot see what the Fuji offers over the Mamiya. Ergonomically I feel the Mamiya is far better, it has a meter, is quieter etc. With prices for the Fuji Mk 3s having soared after their demise, the prices for fuji (used) is not dissimilar to the Mamiya 7II with 80 (used).

Regarding the lenses again, the Mamiya 7 lenses are not just 'yeah, well this is kinda sharp' bu more "wtf...er...I have never seen anything like this sharp". It really is not much of an issue though as both are plenty sharp enough. If you wanted to shoot full frame and mix up with 35mm images, the 1:1.5 ratio of the 6x9 might be handy but you can always crop the M7 negs to 47x70 or whatever it is.

I owned a used GSW690 3 for about a week until I found a long hairline crack in the plastic body and returned it. IMO the Mamiya is much less of a brick and better made. The RF645 shames them both in both regards, however. If only the M7 was built along the same lines.

[Abbazz]

Originally Posted by Turtle

Regarding the lenses again, the Mamiya 7 lenses are not just 'yeah, well this is kinda sharp' bu more "wtf...er...I have never seen anything like this sharp".

You seem to have a good knowledge of the Mamiya 7 lenses for someone who doesn't even own one. Having compared many 13"x19" prints from the Fuji 6x9 cameras and the Mamiya 7, I can tell you that there is absolutely no visible difference in sharpness between both cameras.

Originally Posted by Turtle

I owned a used GSW690 3 for about a week until I found a long hairline crack in the plastic body and returned it. IMO the Mamiya is much less of a brick and better made.

That's your opinion. Having no electronic parts, the Fuji cameras are very robust and reliable. Only the body covers are made of polycarbonates (high quality plastics), the rest of the camera being made of heavy brass and steel. These are serviceable in almost every country in the world and they will remain for many many years, as parts can be made from scratch should the need arise. When I dropped one of my Fujis in a small town in central Vietnam, I was happy to have it fixed by a local watchmaker. And if you are concerned about the plastic covers, buy an old G690, which has solid brass covers. Of course, it weights a lot more than the more recent MKIII version, but it also sports an interchangeable lens, with 50mm, 65mm, 100mm, 150mm and 180mm lenses available.

The Mamiya 7, which is of course a very attractive camera, is somewhat delicate because of the amount of electronics it contains. Try to have a Mamiya 7 repaired on the spot in Cambodia or Mongolia... When Mamiya will stop supplying the parts for the electromagnetic shutter or its command circuits, this camera will become unrepairable. I know this is not going to happen tomorrow, but I don't like the idea.

Cheers!

Abbazz

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by toyotadesigner

That's definitely a tell tale story and a notorious misbelief. The Fujis version III are made of the same steel as the previous models, but with an ergonomically shaped plastic cover for the grip.

Besides this, a tiny hairline crack in the plastic coating doesn't influence its function.

It most certainly is NOT a telltale story but a FACT.

I can hardly remember the exact location as I owned it in 1999. It was a Mk3 and the entire outer casing was plastic to my recollection with the grip having rubber inserts. The crack was somewhere near the winder I think (could be mistaken), about 3/4 inch long and hard to see, but there nonetheless. The crack had clearly originated on an edge as one would expect and I was concerned that it would get worse. I could not care less if the chassis was metal underneath because I had paid top dollar for a MINT as NEW camera. I told them about the crack, they offered a paltry rebate and so I returned it (I would not have a problem with owning one with a crack if it was market price). The same could happen to a Mamiya 7 and has happened to them (I have read as much on this forum or apug). The point I was making was that I had owned a GSW690III albeit for about 2 weeks so felt able to comment seeing as I now own a Mamiya 7.

The Fujinons are not a reason to own this camera over the Mamiya as those lenses are certainly not any better, but probably not meaningfully worse either - both are superb.

[Dibber]

If you plan to project slides you will need to cut up your 6X9 frames.

Both such good cameras. Love my 690 and ended my own internal debate when I wanted to start shooting already- almost got a 680.

[narsuitus]

I own and use the Fuji GW670 and the Fuji GSW690. These two rangefinders meet my needs for a dependable, quiet, reasonably priced, high-quality, medium format camera.

Even though I purchased them to replace my worn-out Mamiya TLR wedding cameras, I also use the GSW690 to shoot wide-angle scenic shots. There is enough detail in the 6x9cm image that I can crop it to 3.5 x 9cm to convert the wide-angle shot to a panoramic image. I also like to use the built-in spirit level to help me obtain an accurate camera alignment.

Even though they are large cameras, they are no more cumbersome to carry as travel cameras than two 35mm SLR cameras; plus, their image quality is so much better than 35mm. I was surprised to discover that they are actually 6 ounces lighter than my Nikon F4s equipped with a normal prime lens and they are only marginally bulkier than two of my 35mm SLR cameras equipped with zoom lenses.

Even though I am very satisfied with the performance of my medium format rangefinders, I must admit that they were second choice to the Mamiya 7ii rangefinder. My fixed-lens Fuji cameras do not give me the telephoto portrait lens that I need. The Mamiya 7ii with its interchangeable lenses would have given me that. However, I could not afford the Mamiya 7ii.

[Todd.Hanz]

Don't kow nuch about the Fuji's but the Mamiya 7II is a great kit, good luck!

Todd

[Benjamin Marks]

light meter. changeable lenses. if you want/need either the choice is easy.

[aizan]

it's been said on TOP several times, and it seems to apply here. the more similar two products are, the more people will pick over the details. let's not make the decision about who will pat you on the back after you've made your purchase.

[Timmy P]

They don't really seem too similar to me, since both are different formats and one can have it's lenses changed. TOP was more about comparing a 450D to a D60.

I think TOP would say the Fuji is like a good compact and the Mamiya is a DSLR. To be honest they're not similar beasts at all, the only thing they do share is a rangefinder.

I mean, extrapolating further, you could even say anything with a rangefinder is similar then.

And thats just crazy. I mean, then everyone knows, Leica would win. Right....? ;-)

At least thats the way I see it.

Adding to my opinion regarding Fuji v Mamiya, I would say it really comes down to price. If you see yourself ever using a lens other than what comes with the Fuji, you are in effect screwed. But when a Mamiya lens costs close to 1 fuji RF, you gotta think how many lenses are you going to buy anyway.

Cheers,

-Tim

[rich815]

You simply cannot go wrong with either. Cost and your own personal feeling about how the camera handles and how comfortable you are with each camera's ergonomics will be the most important issues.

Next of course is the need or desire for interchangeable lenses which is quite a bit offset by the expense difference. Some people actually prefer the simplicity of having only one lens and the need for more creative thinking using that one lens than having the ability to switch to a different focal length, but that too is very subjective.

FWIW, I lust over owning a nice Mamiya 7 or 7II with a couple of it's wonderful lenses but then again tell myself that a Fuji GW690III, a Hasselblad 500CM, Rollei SL66 and a few Rolleiflex TLRs should be enough for me (god dammit!).

[sanmich]

For me the decision was based on price, format and functionality.

I chose the fuji and I love it.
would I have the dough or would my MF photography be my primary business, I think I would have a hard time deciding against the ability of changing the lenses.

[Turtle]

Popflash has superb prices on Mamiya 7 kit in case people don't realise they can be had for vastly less than advertised with B&H etc. $1720 camera and 80mm. with Gw690IIIs going used for over $1000 new Mamiya 7IIs are looking better than ever.