A reality check with the Leica M8

[MP Guy]

The long anticipated digital Leica M8 and it's rocky introduction into the market has been the hot topic of discussion on internet forums.

Bump 1.

The first batch of M8's were experiencing problems with banding and green blobs which appeared as ghosting. Any simple search on rangefinderforum.com (RFF) or other related site will yield many results regarding this issue. In addition to to this, there is the dreaded infra red sensitivity issues which renders blacks as purple. These issues have lead to a great level of frustration from consumers. Especially since none of the reviews prior to the release of the camera mentioned any of these flaws. People were asking how these flaws could have gone unnoticed by the reviewers who had the cameras for an extended period of time yet discovered within a few days by the consumer. The outcry began and Leica issued a statement indicating they have identified the issue and a fix was imminent. Shortly afterwards a recall/upgrade statement was issued by Leica. In addition to the recall of the camera for addressing the know issues, a set of two infrared cut filters would be provided for free to deal with the purple blacks due to the infrared sensitivity of the camera.

Bump 2 ?

It now appears that there could be a possible issue with the upgraded cameras. As reported on RFF and other sites, there is a vertical band which appears on images shot at high ISO. This band seems to appear on the same spot all the time and has been confirmed by various users posting sample images. For more details read the following: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=33137 Also, some are experiencing reflection issues with the B+W (486) IR cut filter which is used to address the purple blacks. When photographing bright objects, a reflection of the bright object appears in the image. People have suggested it is partially due to the anti reflective coating of the filter or a lack of. It appears that people using Heliopan filters do not have this issue. The bad news is that supposedly Leica will be issuing filters manufactured by B+W.

Reality Check and smooth sailing:

The reality of the matter is that Leica has produced and exceptional product that many have been waiting for. The Leica M8 is a dream come true for photographers wanting a digital camera that will yield unmatched results. The lens line up for the Leica M's are without question the best performing lenses for 35mm cameras in the world! Coupled to an M8 the resulting images are breath taking and soon become the envy of others. Also, there is no other camera that allows you to be engaged with the subject like an rangefinder. Try photographing an infant breast feeding with a big loud DSLR and huge lens. Then try it with the rangefinder. The experience could not be more different. It allows you to be in touch with your subject and move freely without intimidating them. In a word, you become part of the canvas as you wait for the right moment. A friend of mine had this exact experience last night and told me he realized why he loves the camera so much. He felt engaged rather than intruder.

I have seen the banding issue, I have seen the green blobs and I have seen the purple blacks. All these minor inconveniences are not enough for me to give up the camera. Let me emphasize "inconvenience" rather than a problem. The purple blacks are resolved with a good IR filter. The green blobs have been resolved. The vertical banding is hard to spot and other manufacturers have the same problem with digital backs costing over $20,000.00. I have to look really really hard to see a vertical band in the odd image.

Conclusion:

I for one will not forsake the shooting experience that only a rangefinder camera can offer. Too many of us are looking for problems that are not there rather than enjoying what is without doubt one of the best digital cameras available now. Why are so many professional photographers with thousands of dollars invested in high end Canon and Nikon DSLR's selling off their gear to buy the M8 and M lenses while knowing of the reported issues? Because there is no other 35mm camera in the world that will come close to the quality of an M8 with Leica lenses and resulting stunning images.

If you want to take pictures and produce the best image quality possible with a 35mm camera, stop looking for problems and enjoy the M8. You are but a few privileged to have such a camera that others envy and only dream of. I look forward to a second M8 body when more are available.

[Nachkebia]

I can not be bothered to read but reality is also very subjective, for me reality is very different, I think digital photography is not ready to be a reality

[rvaubel]

Originally Posted by Nachkebia

I can not be bothered to read but reality is also very subjective, for me reality is very different, I think digital photography is not ready to be a reality

It's ironic that even for die hard film shooters, the success of the M8 is critical. That is if they want to ever see a new lens release or continued Leica repair support.

The bell tolls for thee, Nachkebia

Rex

[HAnkg]

Shooting a Canon DSLR has been a much bigger compromise for me then slapping a filter on my M8 lens will be. The Canon did the job and I used it because that's what was available, no complaints there. But now that there is a digital M that can produce results comparable or superior to the 1Ds I was using? Count me in. Its a platform I much prefer working with and I will be very happy to get back to it.

Plus now I've got the choice of both Zeiss and Leica lens lines on an M -man I'm in heaven.

[gareth]

It's amusing to hear all the luddites moan about the coming of the M8.
At the end of the day, Leica had to come up with a digital M, and indeed other digital products to survive. Without them Leica Camera would soon die.

I love film, I shoot it when I can. But digital is here, it's reality, it's not going to go away, you can't hold back technology. But then more than anything I love photographs, good photographs, and I don't really care much about what camera or on what media the picture was taken.

[Sailor Ted]

Originally Posted by Nachkebia

I can not be bothered to read but reality is also very subjective, for me reality is very different, I think digital photography is not ready to be a reality

You need to start your own religion.

[Nachkebia]

You might be right, but M8 has enough lawyer`s already, the one who is in trouble is film

[rvaubel]

Originally Posted by Nachkebia

You might be right, but M8 has enough lawyer`s already, the one who is in trouble is film

If the M8 is not a marketing success, the demise of the "M" mount will be assured. For the film guys (and I'm one of them) there will be no more Leica lens releases, and probably no more from Zeiss. Perhaps, VC will have a few more products to service the dwindling film holdouts.

It's a pity that the rangefinder film diehards are to be the willing participants in their own marginalzation.


Rex
suicide is sooo romantic !

[rvaubel]

Originally Posted by endustry

Even if the M-mount dies with Leica and new lens design for the mount dies out, my questions is: how much better can M-mount lenses get? ......

Meanwhile all film will do is continue to become a more and more expensive hobby as digital takes over more and more market share but it's not going to die. .

I agree that film will be with us for a long time, as will used equipment. But if the M8 takes off, the market for "M" mount lenses and cameras to put them on will be a living, breathing thing. That is a lot different than being an antique collector. But your comment "how much better can M-mount lenses get" indicates a kind of thinking that may seal the doom of Leica.

It doesn't have to be that way. I also collect and enjoy mechanical watches. The Swiss watch industry is far healthier than if was before the advent of the digital watch. While it's true that the introduction of the digital movement almost killed the precision mechanical watch in the 1980's, enough people maintained and cultivated and interest in the tradition analog watch that the industry came roaring back in the late 90's and it is now bigger than ever. And the new mechanical movements are inovative, modern and are not hobbled by any design considerations except what works and is elegant.

In my opinion, there is a market for the same kind of traditional approach to digital cameras. And that is the road that Leica has taken. Even though their have been more than a few hiccuos, I think it serves no one to engage in persistent negitivity. Who or what does the demise of the m8 serve? Will the film fans "win" if the M8 tanks? Is Leica the Evil Empire?

I don't know about the you, but I would like to see healthy M8 sales, a new RD2, new B&W emulsions from Kodak, and a whole lot more.


Rex

[Marc-A.]

Originally Posted by Nachkebia

You might be right, but M8 has enough lawyer`s already, the one who is in trouble is film

Could not agree more with you!

[Topdog1]

Jorge,
Why is the M8 in your equipment list magenta?

/Ira

[MP Guy]

Oop, I better fix that now

[Topdog1]

Originally Posted by Jorge Torralba

Oop, I better fix that now

That's better!

/Ira

[jano]

Originally Posted by Jorge Torralba

Oop, I better fix that now

Shouldn't that be M8|8M ?

[AusDLK]

Jorge --

You sound convinced and a happy camper (or soon to be one) M8 owner.

I so wish that I could share your point of view. As I have written (and taken a lot of heat for), I was so disappointed even to the irrational point of feeling betrayed by Leica.

I envy you actually. I wish you many cool pictures... And thanks for managing the coolest camera forum that I am aware of.

[FrankS]

Jorge, a short while ago I saw that you posted an ad offering your M8 for sale. What up that that?

[MP Guy]

I was going to sell it to buy an upgraded one. Then I was told by my dealer that I could just swap it.

[Ben Z]

Originally Posted by Jorge Torralba

Why are so many professional photographers with thousands of dollars invested in high end Canon and Nikon DSLR's selling off their gear to buy the M8 and M lenses while knowing of the reported issues?

Where are you getting your facts? Can you define "so many" in actual numbers? Other than a handful on internet forums, the only ones I know doing this are amateurs who are tired of their 1Ds or 5D toys or can't afford to keep both.

If you want to take pictures and produce the best image quality possible with a 35mm camera, stop looking for problems and enjoy the M8.

I'm missing something here. The problems don't seem like it takes much looking to find, and I fail to see where any of them have been resolved in such a way that anyone can claim the M8 yet delivers "the best image quality possible with a 35mm camera".

You are but a few privileged to have such a camera that others envy and only dream of.

Again, I would love to know where you are getting these ideas from. I know hundreds of avid camera bugs and none of them are envious or dreaming of an M8 although a few are thanking their lucky stars they decided to wait.

I had every hope for it, and I still have hope the M8-MarkII or M9, whichever it's called, will be what I'd hoped the M8 would be: an M-Leica with a digital capture that works as transparently as my 20D. My M6 could never reproduce the quality of medium format and I don't care if the M8 can't, I just want respectable quality with no band-aid filters needed, and I think you would find a lot more people who hold that opinion than who are envious and dreaming of the M8 as it stands now...though for obvious reasons I doubt you'll find that the majority opinion if you limit your data to current M8 owners and internet Leica forums

[gareth]

Why are so many professional photographers with thousands of dollars invested in high end Canon and Nikon DSLR's selling off their gear to buy the M8 and M lenses while knowing of the reported issues?

Very few professional photographers can afford to use Leica kit.

[KM-25]

Originally Posted by gareth

Very few professional photographers can afford to use Leica kit.

How is it that you can speak for us?

Curious....

[KM-25]

I have to agree with this. Even if the M9 is full frame ( what it takes for me to buy any digital ) there is no way I would sell off my Canon digital or Nikon film kits.

I'm sure the M8 is great in many applications, but I can wait and see what it looks like in a year, I have plenty to do and shoot and plenty of great gear to do it with.

Having said all this, I love my M6 and two aspherics, prefer them quie often.

We all need the M8 to get Leica into the digital age, it really is silly to bag on it.

Originally Posted by Ben Z

Where are you getting your facts? Can you define "so many" in actual numbers? Other than a handful on internet forums, the only ones I know doing this are amateurs who are tired of their 1Ds or 5D toys or can't afford to keep both.



I'm missing something here. The problems don't seem like it takes much looking to find, and I fail to see where any of them have been resolved in such a way that anyone can claim the M8 yet delivers "the best image quality possible with a 35mm camera".



Again, I would love to know where you are getting these ideas from. I know hundreds of avid camera bugs and none of them are envious or dreaming of an M8 although a few are thanking their lucky stars they decided to wait.

I had every hope for it, and I still have hope the M8-MarkII or M9, whichever it's called, will be what I'd hoped the M8 would be: an M-Leica with a digital capture that works as transparently as my 20D. My M6 could never reproduce the quality of medium format and I don't care if the M8 can't, I just want respectable quality with no band-aid filters needed, and I think you would find a lot more people who hold that opinion than who are envious and dreaming of the M8 as it stands now...though for obvious reasons I doubt you'll find that the majority opinion if you limit your data to current M8 owners and internet Leica forums

[AusDLK]

BenZ --

Like I wrote on another forum to another --

Oh, brother, you raise the questions of a heretic. Non-believers are shunned and placed upon dreaded ignore lists for failing to fall to our knees and praise the dieties of Solms...

Just a word, you know, to the wise and (mostly) silent brotherhood.

[rvaubel]

Originally Posted by AusDLK

Oh, brother, you raise the questions of a heretic. Non-believers are shunned and placed upon dreaded ignore lists for failing to fall to our knees and praise the dieties of Solms...

Just a word, you know, to the wise and (mostly) silent brotherhood.

As a fellow RD1 user, I know the joys of digital rangefinder use. I agree that somehow, somebody at Epson understood the rangefinder concept and implimented it better (a little bit) than Leica. What I don't understand is your almost gleeful attitude towards the M8 teething problems. It's not like Epson has supported the RD1 . Once our darling Cinderella RD develops a serious electronic problem, its teats up.

I was hoping the M8 could fill the breach that will be created with the death of my beloved msRD. However, if you have your way, there will never be a successful M8, since, among other things, you believe the entire Leica organization is/was engaged in a plot to screw you out of your $5000. And anyone that continues to give Leica any slack is a fool that deserves whatever he gets.

Quite frankly, all I hope for is that most of the major bugs be worked out before I work my way up to the front of the waiting list. I'd even be willing to accept what some think to be a beta model in order to have the camera now.

I most definately do not want to see Leica forced into bankrupcy because of the problems they are facing now. I don't think you do either, but at times it seems you feel that it would be the only suitable punishment for your displeasure


Perhaps I'm overstating your anger. I'm sure you too would like to see new lenses, accessories, come out of Solm. But maybe not

Rex

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by AusDLK

BenZ --

Like I wrote on another forum to another --

Oh, brother, you raise the questions of a heretic. Non-believers are shunned and placed upon dreaded ignore lists for failing to fall to our knees and praise the dieties of Solms...

Just a word, you know, to the wise and (mostly) silent brotherhood.

My comment, sir, on your repetitive and increasingly tedious posts can only be this:


You are within your rights to return a product that did not meet your expectations, but continious bashing of those that have another opinion is, to say the least, rather unpleasant. Out of several dozens of M8 sold in our country, the number returned was zero. You are a minority, and an overly vocal one at that.

[Ben Z]

Originally Posted by jaapv

Out of several dozens of M8 sold in our country, the number returned was zero. You are a minority, and an overly vocal one at that.

In our country, USA, the situation is very different. The store manager where I shop in my city which is the third largest major metropolitan area after NYC and LA told me they received 30 of them in the first shipment, six were refused at the buyers' doors and 21 were returned, and 90% of their remaining 150+ orders were cancelled by phone or e-mail. That's just one dealer, and I'm inclined to believe this guy because a)he's a salaried manager not the owner or a commissioned sales clerk, and b)I've known him for 20 years and he's never pulled my leg. Things are not going well for the M8 or Leica, and the most alarming thing is that most of the cancellations came after Leica announced the fix would be the IR filters. He also told me the Leica rep said it's similar at other dealers in his territory and among the other reps as well there has been hollering from dealers to get Leica to put in a different sensor.