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View Poll Results: Are you both a photographer and shooting enthusiast?
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Photographers and Marksmen
Old 11-29-2004   #1
Peter
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Photographers and Marksmen

I have this little theory that firearms shooters tends to be involved in photography. I have noticed it here in Singapore at the local shooting club.
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Old 11-29-2004   #2
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I've been a gun nut and hunter even longer than a photographer. Perhaps it has something to do with these activities all being very observation oriented?

William
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Old 11-29-2004   #3
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I gave up on firearms after they had us register all firearms in Canada and moved to photography. A lot of the same techniques used to get off a successful shot are the same with both. It is really ironic that photography is suffering in a similar way post 911. I must have a black cloud following me.

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Old 11-29-2004   #4
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"I've been a gun nut and hunter even longer than a photographer."

Me too. Fired my first handgun - a 1927 Colt Woodsman - in 1948. My father was also interested in both guns and photography and has between 100 & 120 photographs in the Archives of the Smithsonian Institute.

Walker
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Old 11-29-2004   #5
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Peter, may I know a bit more info about this shooting club? I love going for range, once took part in safisam, but only as "backup shooter".

Alvin
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Old 11-29-2004   #6
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I was with SAFRA IPSC before I quit shooting as I am too busy these days. It is at National Shooting Centre at Lim Chu Kang. When I was in the army I was the section marksman (designated sharpshooter) during SISPEC. Before army I was in the secondary school air rifle team. Photography and shooting have a lot of similarities in the form of stance, breathing, holding and trigger control.
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Old 11-29-2004   #7
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Any links or urls for this particular club? Talking about air rifles, yeah kinda forgot about them. I was in the club too during secondary school!

Alvin
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Old 11-29-2004   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nikon Bob
I gave up on firearms after they had us register all firearms in Canada and moved to photography. A lot of the same techniques used to get off a successful shot are the same with both. It is really ironic that photography is suffering in a similar way post 911. I must have a black cloud following me.

Bob
In the Marine Corps, they called it BRASS. Breathe, Relax, Aim, Stop, Squeeze. Works great for holding a camera steady, too.

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Old 03-29-2012   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmattock View Post
In the Marine Corps, they called it BRASS. Breathe, Relax, Aim, Stop, Squeeze. Works great for holding a camera steady, too.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
Exactly! Sometimes I find myself wanting to work on the trigger after firing off a frame.
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Old 11-29-2004   #10
Peter
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Quote:
Originally posted by GallenWolf
Any links or urls for this particular club? Talking about air rifles, yeah kinda forgot about them. I was in the club too during secondary school!

Alvin
You could take a look here http://www.singaporeshooting.org/index.shtml
It seems that we have quite a few shooters here in RFF!
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Old 11-29-2004   #11
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I have been pondering your statement - and it seems there is some truth to it, more than the casual glance might reveal. Do people who enjoy fine cameras (specifically rangefinders) also appreciate firearms? I now believe you're on the right track, but there is more to it...to wit:

I also suspect that a part of it might be the appreciation of fine machinery. Great classic SLRs and rangefinders have that essence of the awesome about them, such that they transcend being merely recorders of photons on film, objects of glass and steel, and become imbued with something that, if not an actual soul, is very much like one in many respects.

This can also be observed in fine mechanical watches, high-quality firearms, steam trains, and one or two automobiles.

I note also that with the exception of the most expensive end of the enthusiast's pursuit, the heyday of fine mechanical objects for the sake of their being fine mechanical objects is past. The appreciation for a man's labor and skill beyond what mass-production can give us is past.

Fortunately, being fine mechanical objects, they are often found in the loving hands of those who treat them with respect and use them as the tools they were meant to be.

If my photograph made with an ancient Serenar lens is less sharp than a modern autofocus autoexposure plastic-bodied chimera, then so mote it be. I have the privilege of owning and using a fine mechanical specimen that feels good in my hand and guides my spirit to take better photographs than I otherwise might - or so I choose to believe.

While time marches on, and I am certainly not immune to the charms of the beckoning, glittering, digital future, there must still be some dark and quiet place where one can shoot all day, then return home and dunk a roll of film in a bucket of developer and try to bring forth magic.

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Old 04-15-2005   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmattock
I also suspect that a part of it might be the appreciation of fine machinery. Great classic SLRs and rangefinders have that essence of the awesome about them, such that they transcend being merely recorders of photons on film, objects of glass and steel, and become imbued with something that, if not an actual soul, is very much like one in many respects.
that's definitely the case with me.. I was drawn to handguns because of the mechanical aspects.. and like cameras, I learned that newer is not necessarily better.. my first handgun was a H&K USP40, which I bought because it touted the newest technology.. same thing for my first camera, a Nikon D70

now I own a Kimber CDP, which is built on the Browning 1911 design.. and my favorite camera is a Yashica GSN.. with a Bessa R3A soon on its way.. and eventually a Leica (model still undetermined)
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Old 04-15-2005   #13
Wayne R. Scott
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I don't know how I missed this thread until today. I also own firearms and cameras. I have an Old Model Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Long Colt that I did NOT have modified with the new "improved" transfer bar type hammer. It just sounds better when it is cocked than the new model does. I also like the way my Contax IIa and IIIa sound when they are cocked and shot.

I also believe that being a rifle and handgun shooter helps with being a steady hand with a camera. But, having said that, I have shot enough that I know I can do better if I use a rest when shooting a rifle and a tripod when shooting a camera.

Along those same lines I think being a trap and skeet shooter along with being a bird hunter helps with the rangefinder style of seeing the photo oppurtunity and quickly "capturing" the moment.

I might mention that I also reload my ammo, mould my own bullets, make my own feather fletching for my arrows and develop and print my black & white film at home.

I shoot traditional bows (no wheels or cams on the limbs, no Kung-Fu laser sight devices, or releases). It's not that I have any thing against those types of compound bows, they, just like digital cameras, are not right for me.

I have a box full of medals around here some place that supposedly says I am a half way decent shot with a rifle, but I don't shoot near as much as I did as a youth.

Interesting thread.

Wayne
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Old 05-30-2005   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne R. Scott
I also believe that being a rifle and handgun shooter helps with being a steady hand with a camera. But, having said that, I have shot enough that I know I can do better if I use a rest when shooting a rifle and a tripod when shooting a camera.

I shoot traditional bows (no wheels or cams on the limbs, no Kung-Fu laser sight devices, or releases). It's not that I have any thing against those types of compound bows, they, just like digital cameras, are not right for me.

I have a box full of medals around here some place that supposedly says I am a half way decent shot with a rifle, but I don't shoot near as much as I did as a youth.

Interesting thread.

Wayne
and another Wayne here.... 18 months as a markmanship instructor at MCRD Parris Island... always shot high expert with the rifle (couldn't hit the floor with a pistol), went for tyro on the rifle/pistol team

don't own any weapons at all now... the limp-wristed congress critters haven't outlawed cameras... yet.

i have already indicated my photo technique (or lack thereof) in the Street Ninjas thread....

there are a lot of similarities...
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Anyone want to trade for my HK P7PSP?
Old 05-30-2005   #15
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Anyone want to trade for my HK P7PSP?

I'm also a shooter, but haven't been shooting guns much since I started shooting cameras. There's a HK P7 PSP in my safe that I've been trying to decide what to do with (talk about fine German mechanical devices - it makes my Leica M2 seem coarse and primitive).

Anyone want to trade me some RF gear of comparable value for it? I'm not kidding!

ps.
You guys shooting the CZ-52s are aware that the decockers on those are kind of squirrelly and have been known to act as a second trigger at times, right?!! I'm not some kind of HK snob either - I used to own a CZ PCR, and have lusted after a CZ-75SA for a while.
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Old 11-29-2004   #16
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Well said Bill! Somehow mechanical/classic RF users feel that the process is just as important as the outcome. I like good photos but I enjoy the feeling of operating a mechanical RF even more! Good end results are bonuses! It is the same with good bolt action target rifles.
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Old 11-29-2004   #17
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Yeah , an auto loading 12 guage is a tool but a side by side sidelock 12 guage with an English style straight grip stock is a tool/work of art. The photographic equivilant to me is the comparison of a pro DSLR to a Leica screw mount. I like steam trains and piston engined vintage aircraft also. They seem to have more soul/personality.

Bob
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Old 11-29-2004   #18
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I found that its much easier getting a deer out of the woods after shooting it with a camera than with a gun.

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Old 11-29-2004   #19
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Bill I think you're right. As a former mechanical engineer, I appreciate mechanical artistry, and that certainly includes ergonomics and performance along with design, materials, craftsmanship, etc.

As there are different kinds of viewfinder systems, there are different approaches to firearm actions, and it's fun to experience different thinking along those lines.

I got involved in reloading, too, akin to darkroom work, and treated the firing range as a testing lab. The result was benchrest shooting, action pistol shooting, self-defense training with pistol, knife, and rifle, and the biggest black hole I encountered, Collecting!

As a consequence of flirting with that issue with firearms I learned some interesting history, but I have to keep reminding myself, in regard to cameras, I am NOT a collector! Too dangerously expenseive.
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Old 11-29-2004   #20
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Bill, IMO you've pretty well nailed it. Most people who like firearms and old cameras are appreciative of - even reverent towards - precision mechanical and optical devices. I know I am and to your list I would add finely crafted writing instruments.

Doug, collecting guns is absolutely a black hole. Take it from someone who had/has a love of Lugers.

Walker
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Old 11-29-2004   #21
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Brian, you're a shooter, too? Do I know you from, formerly, the Shooting forum on AOL?
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Old 11-29-2004   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by r-brian
I found that its much easier getting a deer out of the woods after shooting it with a camera than with a gun.

Brian
How true.

But for all that I love the smell of fixer in the early morning, the tastes just can't compare.

As to weapons, how about a S&W 45 revolver, Colt 45 Auto, a Mauser 380; A 243 Winchester lever action, 7 mag bolt action. Talk about workmanship! All past passions.
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Old 11-29-2004   #23
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Now I'm scared at just how much I fit in......

I am a Mechanical Engineer.
I use RF cameras in part because I hate automation getting between me and teh picture, and in part because I love the craftsmanship and feel.
I shoot target with a .50 cal Pennsylvania flintlock rifle and a .36 cal Colt Navy cap and ball revolver because I enjoy the challenge and the history.
I drive a 1966 MGB, because it has a great feel, and because I can actually work on it.

I think I'll stop there....




tim
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Old 11-29-2004   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doug
Brian, you're a shooter, too? Do I know you from, formerly, the Shooting forum on AOL?
Might have been my father, who had the same name. Sadly, he has gone on now, but he was active on AOL. His screen name was MATTOCKSSR007 as I recall.

I helped my dad get his CMP M1 Garand, which my step-mother still proudly displays. I wrote this about the Garand back then:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/whycmp.htm

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Bill Mattocks
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Old 11-29-2004   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by r-brian
I found that its much easier getting a deer out of the woods after shooting it with a camera than with a gun.

Brian
I respect your beliefs, Brian, and I know that hunting (and guns) are volatile issues - perhaps not well-suited for the friendly confines of RFF. Let me just say that it is my respect for life and the fact that I acknowledge myself as a meat-eater that I can and have hunted, and have eaten what I have killed. Many of us buy meat in the grocery store - an animal died under unpleasant circumstances for that. I have connected myself by choice to understanding what it means to be human and kill other animals to survive. I pass no judgement on the beliefs of those who choose not to hunt - I have not hunted in many years myself, and content myself with using firearms for making accurate and expensive holes in pieces of paper at a target range from time to time. But I have no moral qualms about hunting, when it comes to that.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
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Old 04-15-2005   #26
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Colt National Match c. 1935, Ruger single-action magnum, stainless.

Lots of Leicas, a 1972 Land Rover Series III, a 1978 BMW R100RS...

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Old 11-29-2004   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Now I'm scared at just how much I fit in......

I am a Mechanical Engineer.
I use RF cameras in part because I hate automation getting between me and teh picture, and in part because I love the craftsmanship and feel.
I shoot target with a .50 cal Pennsylvania flintlock rifle and a .36 cal Colt Navy cap and ball revolver because I enjoy the challenge and the history.
I drive a 1966 MGB, because it has a great feel, and because I can actually work on it.

I think I'll stop there....




tim
Tim,

Three words for you:

Vincent. Black. Shadow.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
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Old 11-29-2004   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doug
Bill I think you're right. As a former mechanical engineer, I appreciate mechanical artistry, and that certainly includes ergonomics and performance along with design, materials, craftsmanship, etc.
I was hooked on fine mechanical watches the first time I idly opened the back of my grandfather's Elgin pocket watch. Oh, my! The gears, springs, and levers inside - all decorated with engravings that the owner would most likely never see - done in a fine style just because it was the right thing to do. Mechanical engineering as not just a discipline, but an actual art form.

I also realized that in this world of intangible information as wealth and power, this was a physical representation of the past, something that should be kept and appreciated.

When I hold my grandfather's pocket watch in my hand, I hold an appreciable fraction of a man's life who made it. Yes, the gears were cut by machine, but a human being sat down at a bench, assembled the pieces, and made it go with a skill that I cannot fathom, and then polished it, marked it with engravings and swirls and florishes, timed it, and set it in motion - I still carry that today - it still keeps good time. It was made in 1903. It has outlived my grandfather, my father, and my outlive me.

What I have I built, made, or created that will last longer than I will?

I am deeply appreciative of the unknown man's skill who made my grandfather's watch. It has led to an appreciation of all fine mechanical things.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
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Old 11-30-2004   #29
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I have some strong opinions about firearms/guns. Most have to do with moral issues with why they were invented and produced. I can intellectually understand the thing about 'fine mechanics', but my feelings tell me to stay far away from guns. I hope you don't mind.

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Old 11-30-2004   #30
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No firearm. But i love to shoot with bows so i said "yes". Although i don't do it too often

No, it's not related to my origins. I don't like horseriding.
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Old 11-30-2004   #31
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Yeah, how's that for old mechanical things...a bow
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Old 11-30-2004   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by bmattock
Tim,

Three words for you:

Vincent. Black. Shadow.

Best Regards,

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drooooooooooollllllllllllllllll!!!!!!!! YES PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

two problems - 1/ money (they are bloody expensive) 2/ the better half

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Old 11-30-2004   #33
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I'm a long time shooter, there isn't many types I haven't been into over the years (99.9% target shooting of some sort btw). A high school buddy and I joined a local pistol club when we were 14yrs old and are still members today (23yrs later ), my friend now makes his living making small arms projectiles and I for a few years was a gun dealer and a Glock armourer but gave it all up for a job that actually paid the bills. As has been mentioned by others I think the attraction of finely made firearms crosses over to classic cameras, it does for me anyway. But that said I know a lot of shooter but not many that are into photography but most can appreciate a nicely made classic camera.
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Old 11-30-2004   #34
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Bill

I have nothing against hunting. In fact, I have a degree in Wildlife Management. I grew up hunting, ergo my degree. (I just love the word 'ergo'.) I've humanely harvested my share of small and large game, spring turkey hunting being my favorite. Even had some worthless bird dogs years ago when I lived in Virginia. Still own some classic guns, 22 cal.Winchester Model 69 (circa late 1940's), 22 cal. Mossberg Model 44M (circa late 1940's) and a 20 gauge Remington Model 670, which I've had since 1967.

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Old 11-30-2004   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pherdinand
Yeah, how's that for old mechanical things...a bow
<gamer mode=on>
OF COURSE THAT'S GREAT !

BUAHAHAHAHA...
<gamer mode=off>

True that classic guns and classic cameras seem to have so many things in common. I pretty much prefer the second ones though, it doesn't hurt that much if I accidentally shoot my own foot

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Old 11-30-2004   #36
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Quote:
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Bill

I have nothing against hunting. In fact, I have a degree in Wildlife Management. I grew up hunting, ergo my degree. (I just love the word 'ergo'.) I've humanely harvested my share of small and large game, spring turkey hunting being my favorite. Even had some worthless bird dogs years ago when I lived in Virginia. Still own some classic guns, 22 cal.Winchester Model 69 (circa late 1940's), 22 cal. Mossberg Model 44M (circa late 1940's) and a 20 gauge Remington Model 670, which I've had since 1967.

Brian
Brian,

Beg pardon, I misunderstood the basis of your statement regarding taking photos of game vs. shooting them with firearms. You were being literal - I sensed a message!

It's all those years of being a smoker - and a gun owner - I got used to being an 'oppressed minority' of sorts, facing disapproval at every turn...

Mea Culpa,

Bill Mattocks
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Old 11-30-2004   #37
sfaust
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I never hunted, but owned a number of firearms over the years and still have some to this day. For me, it was all about appreciation of the mechanical aspects, and a personal challenge to take a very small object traveling at 2,000mph and put it dead center in small black circle at 100yards or longer.

I started with .22 and 30-06 in my early 20's, and have had something ever since. I got my first camera in my teens, and have always had a camera ever since. There seems to be a connection!

Hunting never appealed to me in the slightest. I just couldn't look a deer int he eye, then kill it. However, I understand how hunting is a part of mankind, and has been ever since, well, since however and whenever we got here on this planet.

There are no moral aspects of firearms with me. That lies squarely on those that use them inappropriately, and shouldn't be a burden on those that don't. I feel the same toward knifes, rope, hammers, autos, bricks, or any other object used inappropriately to harm others.

I currently have a Sig P229, Taurus .357, Colt AR-15, and a Colt Pocket 9. I used to be a police officer in my way past, and I think firearms just stayed with me on part because of all the training, practice, and just because...

Hey, thats funny. I just realized my signature line about never being is jail is incorrect. I was in jails all the time. I used to bring people there a lot!!! I guess I should change to read I never spend the night in jail!
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Last edited by sfaust : 11-30-2004 at 08:37.
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Old 11-06-2005   #38
fgianni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfaust
There are no moral aspects of firearms with me. That lies squarely on those that use them inappropriately, and shouldn't be a burden on those that don't. I feel the same toward knifes, rope, hammers, autos, bricks, or any other object used inappropriately to harm others.
So I guess you would have no problem in letting anyone buy a B1 bomber with nukes providing they have the money for it.
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Old 11-30-2004   #39
Doug
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Hey Stephen; cool: another Colt Pocket 9! Couldn't be all that many of those around, they were made so briefly. Like the Bessa-T? I too have a police connection in the past as a Reserve for 10 years... valuable experience.
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Old 11-30-2004   #40
Nikon Bob
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Bill

I hear you about the " oppressed minority of sorts" bit being in the same boat. Cheer up I think there is a movement to ban junk food so we will have lots of company.

Bob
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