A black and white street photographer's first rangefinder?

[matt soul]

hey everyone, I was looking into buying my first rangefinder and needed a little help. I have been doing street photography for 2 years using an old Nikon 35mm SLR. My mentor said my next step was to learn how to use a rangefinder. I have been looking at a really cool Fed 2, a Zorki 3m, and Zorki 6. What do you all think the best rangefinder will be to start with? Thanks

A contax G2 or something with at least auto exposure. Good street shots only last a second so auto eliminates the need to screw around with adjustments.

[matt soul]

I meant the best rangefinder to get out of the old russian rangefinder, but thanks for the reply

[Doug]

Yeah, I agree with Frank, that's one decent approach to the need for quick reactions. I admit to preferring AE for this too. There are also personal skills that can be developed to keep a manual RF pre-set for anticipated conditions, and quick adjustments to suit. What can catch you unawares is a sudden dramatic change in conditions. Oh, well; lots of different approachs, and I dare say the RFF way is to buy several of each and then choose your gear to match your mood of the day!

I can't say I'm too very enthused by the former Soviet gear. It's fun, I have a couple Kievs, but a nice Voigtlander Bessa R2a would be far preferable for getting the pictures you like. Maybe economize by using the Soviet lenses...

[pvdhaar]

Originally Posted by matt soul

... My mentor said my next step was to learn how to use a rangefinder...

Is there a particular reason your mentor wants you to learn how to use a rangefinder? The purpose may steer your choice..

Originally Posted by matt soul

What do you all think the best rangefinder will be to start with? Thanks

Depends on the budget. If you've got no more to spare than 50$ or so, you could consider an older fixed lens Japanese RF, for instance a Canonet, Konica, Olympus or Petri. They're from the 70s/80s but many of them still work very well.

If you've got more to spare, then a Bessa-R (no AE) or a Bessa-R2a (has AE) like Doug suggested with a 35 would make a great choice.

In contrast to Frank and Doug, I'm not entirely sure that AE is a must have feature. I often measure once and then stick with it, and adjust when the light levels change.. (clouds, shade, etc.) I think it gives better exposure consistency that way, because built in reflective light meters are easily fooled by the subjects tone..

[Toby]

Budget is what we need to know, but having said that if you want a russian camera see if you can get a dealer to sell you one on a 7 day sale or return basis. The quality control on FSU cameras is such that they vary immensley even within the same make or model. Get one, test it and then make up your mind whether you want to keep it.

[ChrisN]

Hi Matt - welcome to the forum!

As you have plenty of experience with an older Nikon SLR, you probably have a fair idea about estimating exposure, or you are ready for the challenge and wish to further develop your skills in that direction. I'm guessing that's what your mentor has in mind for you.

So either of the FED 2 or the Zorki 3M would be ideal, as they are both simple cameras which allow, indeed demand, that you concentrate on the three essentials - focus, aperture and shutter speed.

Personally I really like the look of the Zorki 3M, but that's one of the rarer and more expensive Zorkis. Grab one if you can get it at a reasonable price - you won't lose if you decide to sell it later. The FED 2 is more common, but again there are variations amongst them with some being rarer / more collectible / more expensive than others. Both these cameras are best suited to a 50mm lens due to the nature of the viewfinder, though you can always use an accessory viewfinder if you prefer a 35mm lens, but that might slow you down a bit.

Let us know what you choose, and don't forget to share some pics with us!

2 years of street photography with "an old Nikon SLR" could mean many things, including auto exposure and auto focusing. A 2-year old SLR or a 35 year old SLR?

[bobofish]

Matt,
I think the guys are waiting to pounce on your question like hungry lions....there are few things camera guys like more than talking cameras.

A couple things are needed, in terms of info...budget, needs, the reason you want an RF.

Pending that info, the best choice for a rangefinder is almost certainly a Leica M or an M mount camera, like the new Zeiss Ikon, Bessa R2a/R3a, etc.

There's a great deal to be said for the Hasselblad X-pan as a street camera...I've seen some great work done with it, and the word "panorama" scares some people off of street photography, where it should really invite them.

Give us some bones to chew, I'm sure you'll get plenty of info. It could be dangerous for your pocketbook to read though.

[matt soul]

Originally Posted by bobofish

Matt,
I think the guys are waiting to pounce on your question like hungry lions....there are few things camera guys like more than talking cameras.

A couple things are needed, in terms of info...budget, needs, the reason you want an RF.

Pending that info, the best choice for a rangefinder is almost certainly a Leica M or an M mount camera, like the new Zeiss Ikon, Bessa R2a/R3a, etc.

There's a great deal to be said for the Hasselblad X-pan as a street camera...I've seen some great work done with it, and the word "panorama" scares some people off of street photography, where it should really invite them.

Give us some bones to chew, I'm sure you'll get plenty of info. It could be dangerous for your pocketbook to read though.

Budget? the cheaper the better, but it needs to work

needs? durability, function, competant viewfinder, jupiter lens cause the seem like they are better

the reason I want an RF, because my major influence in my photography is Bresson and he used a rangefinder and my mentor uses an old leica so he thought now that I have gotten comfortable with the SLR, I should challenge myself further and start to work with a rangefinder too.

[matt soul]

by the way thanks for the responses everyone, this is making my choice alot easier

[bmattock]

Originally Posted by matt soul

Budget? the cheaper the better, but it needs to work

needs? durability, function, competant viewfinder, jupiter lens cause the seem like they are better

the reason I want an RF, because my major influence in my photography is Bresson and he used a rangefinder and my mentor uses an old leica so he thought now that I have gotten comfortable with the SLR, I should challenge myself further and start to work with a rangefinder too.

I would not choose a rangefinder because HCB used one, or because my mentor uses one, but because it is a superior tool for YOU for the work YOU want to do. And if that turns out not to be true, then I'd go back to what works best for you. No one says, for example, that Photo A by HCB is superior to Photo B by HCB because it was taken with an RF instead of an SLR. The photo is what matters, yes? No one will care how you got it. It may destroy the dashing mental image of the photographer-as-action-hero, but it is better to be schlub and fade, fade, fade, into the woodwork. Nails that stand up get pounded down. Just my 2 cents.

Having said that, the rangefinder still offers some distinct advantages over an SLR for street photography. However, many of those advantages require a different way of using the camera.

If you're using a manual SLR, you currently lead with your focussing ring. Life exists in your viewfinder, on a matte screen, in and out of focus as you twist the lens. Peripheral vision does not exist in your world.

With a RF, everything is always in focus to your eye. No blackout when you trip the shutter, of course. And you can train yourself to keep both eyes open if you like. I prefer it when I remember to do it, and it is more like, oh, how do I explain?

Remember the stupid movies and TV shows where someone pretends to be a famous movie director by holding up their hands in front of themselves and making a 'box' shape with their thumbs and forefingers and framing people with that? Well, it's like that. You stop seeing with the camera and start seeing with your eyes. You just place the frame on things and take the shot.

With a manual-focus SLR, your first concern MUST be focus. Because without focus, you can't see to frame your scene. And you must pan around, zoom out, or lower the camera to see what ELSE there is to see in the scene, or use a wide lens and depend on massive cropping afterwards to 'create' your scene in the darkroom or at a computer screen. But you lose precious time focusing first, then you look through a narrow tube at a scene that changes even as you raise your camera to look at it.

With a RF, especially if you can keep both eyes open, your first concern is NOT focus, it is composition & framing. That means you must be (or must become) very comfortable with your camera and it's lens. You must balance f-stop with exposure and DOF to juggle your way into your scene. It becomes a dance - open the lens up as you move into shade, but be aware that your DOF is now 2 feet and not 10 feet on a subject 15 feet away from you, assuming you've prefocused and set your shutter speed. You can, in this situation, change your shutter speed, fiddle with your focus to get your rangefinder patch correct, or work with what you have and move in or out to keep your subject in your new narrower zone of focus. But you have seconds to choose. Best if you can make any necessary changes quickly - even without looking at your camera.

Quick! Which way does your aperture ring turn to open it up? Which way to slow the shutter speed down? What's your DOF at 10 feet and f/8?

I feel that a RF camera allows you be more a part of your environment when street shooting. With an SLR, you are an extention of your lens. With an RF, your camera is an extension of your eye.

I'm not saying that you can't do effective street photography with an SLR - lots of better photographers than I will ever be have done so and done well. I am suggesting that the way in which an RF is naturally used lends itself more towards street shooting than an SLR does.

Whatever tool you choose, master it and your photographs will improve. Fumbling around costs time, and time is not a luxury of the street photographer.

Now, on a counterpoint - I don't much care that Winogrand used a pair of M-4's and shot from the hip or that HCB used Leica cameras as well. What I would care about is why they chose the tools they did, and then decide if their selection criteria was right for me as well. In some cases, they may have chosen their tools because that was the tools their peers used - or that it was what was available then and there are better tools now - or that they just picked up whatever they could find - or they got a recommendation from someone else yet again - etc, etc. Is a Leica a great choice? Sure, no doubt. Is it the right choice for you? Depends on you. If you point a Leica at a pile of dog poop, you get a photo of a pile of dog poop. No "Leica Glow" will change that.

If you use the wrong shutter speed or aperture, or forget to load the film, nothing Leica can do will fix that. Once you obtain a camera that is reliable and takes sharp photos, MOST of what you do with a camera depends on YOU and not the camera. Given the biggest criteria, however, some cameras stand out as obvious choices - bright viewfinder, rapid focus, great lenses, very dependable, can be fixed or replaced in any major city - Leica M cameras have all that going for them. Some others do as well, to a greater or lesser extent. As offshoots of the Leica III's by way of Soviet copy, the Zorkis may have some or all of the capabilities you're looking for, as may the Kievs with their Contax successors. The Kievs would offer faster lens changing and perhaps a quieter shutter. The Zorkis would offer a wider world of lenses and perhaps a tad more reliability. To my way of thinking, both have relatively dim viewfinders compared to more modern RF's, and that can be a problem when street shooting. And I'm fond of neither for speed or ease of film loading, but that can be overcome with practice and dedication.

I hope you find any of this of interest.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[matt soul]

Originally Posted by Frank Granovski

2 years of street photography with "an old Nikon SLR" could mean many things, including auto exposure and auto focusing. A 2-year old SLR or a 35 year old SLR?

all manual, its an Fm 10 I bought used a few years ago.

[varjag]

Just get a Kiev

[darkkavenger]

Originally Posted by varjag

Just get a Kiev

Yeeee-haa!

A Kiev if you're on a budget, a Zeiss-Ikon Contax if you've got the monies

[Bryan Lee]

Check around "Camera Quest" and see if he still has a Bessa T, or even a Bessa L. $199 for a new T and 75 bucks for a new L til they are gone. Then go cheep on a viewfinder and get whatever lense you can at first then save for a second hand or new CV 35 1.7 which is a great inexspensive all around lense.
I totaly disagree on getting a older camera when you dont already have experiance or time to mess around with this type of camera. Old shutters, old electronics, light leaks, fungis, name your own buzzkill on old cameras. Again I disagree about any automated process in street or life photography because its just one more thing that can go wrong with a hard use camera. Simple and new manual shutterd with ttl metering using your head and hands for ajustments is a better solution than old and used electronic shutters and old and battered lightmetering setting the apeture or shutter speeds when it comes to lowbudget rangefinder photograghy. While I tend to disagree I still respect others oppinions on the subject, I wish you well on your new undertaking.

[Brian Sweeney]

The build quality on Russian cameras, and condition of cameras sold on Ebay, varies greatly.


If you get one, consider buying from someone who checks the cameras out and can repair one if required. I would go for one that has been recently CLA'd, considering the shipping cost from overseas.

This seller has been used by several RFF members:

http://www.okvintagecamera.com/index.html

Personally, I like the Kiev's with their Contax heritage. Others prefer the Leica copies. The Helios-103 50mm F1.8 available for the Kiev/Contax is very sharp.

A decent setup, recently CLA'd, with 35mm F2.8 Jupiter-12 and 50mm F1.8 or F2 lens should run $100~$150.

[nzeeman]

Originally Posted by Brian Sweeney

This seller has been used by several RFF members:

http://www.okvintagecamera.com/index.html

i heard this seller sell stuff in great condition so try to buy from him but you should know that his prices are not lowest of all.
i have zorki 1 and zorki s both are great so you can try with those two.
try to find zorki with industar 22 (because its colapsible and compact).
beside that you can try to find jupiter12 35mm, jupiter11 135mm and jupiter 8 2/50mm (because of its speed).

[Skinny McGee]

Yashica GSN or Zorki1 with a Industar 22

[bmattock]

My reply is anti-everything that has been mentioned here, except the statement about AE not being necessary, which it is indeed not.

What matters for street photography is fast action and sharp focus. Unless you are intentionally isolating something/someone, zone focus with an understanding of your DOF for any given aperture is more important that the camera. Having a good understanding of the light conditions where you are is important. Being able to judge changing light conditions and opening up / closing down aperture as needed by eye with occasional reference to a light meter is important. AE can be fooled - cities with deep canyon walls are high-contrast scenes and their judgement in such situations can be wrong - best to be depend on one's own common sense in these situations. Being able to reload quickly is important. And finally, some level of unobtrusiveness is important - quiet, non-shiny, small, etc.

In other words, certain skills are more important than the camera per se in these conditions. Judge distance, light conditions, and framing by eye. Have the camera preset for the majority of these situations, know your camera well enough to change the settings quickly when called for, with a minimum amount of fumbling. Be able to reload with one eye on your surroundings.

Given that, my choice is usually a camera that offers manual aperture/speed controls (AE optional, but I don't factor it into my decision as long as I can turn it off), good viewfinder, good distance markings on lens barrel (easy to see/read), easy handling, easy loading.

In reality, I often reach for either my Bessa R and a 35mm lens (although I am usually a 50mm guy) or my Olympus XA or XA2 (zone focus, not an RF). But that's just my choice, and might not be best for others. I'd love a Contax G2, as long as I could turn off the AF/AE and easily set the aperture/speed controls for these situations.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[SolaresLarrave]

A good mechanical, manual focus camera (preferably a Japanese model) should do. The Contax G has a fatal flaw: shutter lag. I know it because I've used it, and the shutter just won't respond when you want it, but only when the camera has locked its focus on something.

Does it need to be a FSU body? I'd say go for any of these (from the most expensive to the inexpensive): a Leica M with a 35mm lens; a Bessa (almost any flavor, with a nice, wide angle lens); a Japanese, fixed lens camera (Canonet G-III QL17 is the best, but a Yashica GS or a Konica S2 are good contenders); finally, a Russian camera, like a Zorki or a Fed.

And don't forget Tri-X film!

As Bill said above, the skills are more important than the camera, so consider one that allows you to use the skills you have... and improve them.

[rami]

Originally Posted by SolaresLarrave

The Contax G has a fatal flaw: shutter lag. I know it because I've used it, and the shutter just won't respond when you want it, but only when the camera has locked its focus on something.

You're talking about Auto Focus LAG not about Shutter Lag. that it <B>HUGE </B>difference :-) Every camera with AF have AF lag. But:

a) you can prefocus with AF. -> no shutter lag with contax G
b) you can focus manually earlier -> no shutter lag with contax G
c) you can use wide lens on f 8 or f16 and prefocus -> great DOF -> no need to focus (only once, hiperfoical distance) -> no shutter lag with contax G

best regards, rami

[rami]

I believe, that good RFs for street photography are thos with AE, prefferably aperture priority. For example Olympus XA or (much bigger, but with better VF/RF) Yashica GSN in some variation. XA have 35/2.8 lens, yahica a little longer and brighter.

If you want Time priority, that it is a lot of 70s RFs, Olympuses 35, Canons Canonets, Minolta Hi-Matic etc...

BTW: show us your photos - it is important, if you play with DOF or not, how long lens do you prefer...

BTW2: it is really not so important with kind of camera you choose - you can do a lot of crap and a lot of good shots from nearlly everything :-)

best regards, Rami
http://www.rami.pl - streets with maybe 10 or more different cameras :-)

[nomade]

Fed 2 was the 1st i've used but its view finder is dim, and it's not that easy to handle it's light yes, but i'd rather a fed 3 lighter, smarter...

[Solinar]

Another vote for a Bessa R with a 35mm Skopar. The reason built-in frame lines for 35mm and the Skopar is an excellent choice for quick work when zone focusing. Plus, the Bessa R has a through-the- lens light meter.

I mentioned the Bessa R as it is relatively new. Thus, you are unlikely to experience techinical/mechanical difficulties.

My recommendation for the Bessa R kit is as a first rangefinder, gear from the Former Soviet Union often is based on service issues. This is why you should buy from a reputable dealer and pay through the nose. - Usually under $100. - For example, you may get a working camera from ePay, but the lens needs to be lubed and recalibrated to infinity. You may get a nice calibrated lens and maybe a camera in need of a CLA. Finally, you may get a camera that needs all of the above should play the roulette wheel for an under $50 bargain on the large auction site.

Moving on from the caveat emptor, FSU shooters are fun to shoot with once the mechanicals are properly sorted out. If you ever thing that you'll need to shoot at 1/1000th of a second then get the Zorki 3M or a Kiev 4am. The Zorki 1 with a collapsible Industar 22 is pocketable, but will be a challenge for a first timer to master. The FED 2 is more forgiving, as is the Zorki 6. With regards to the Zorki 6 send the bloody thing to Oleg for an overhaul and then see how it suits your needs.

Why consider a FSU rangefinder? In addition to their affordability, I love the look of images from the 35mm focal length, Jupiter 12 and the collapsible 50mm, Industar 22 for street photography. The lenses are the reason I reason I'll continue to use my FSU gear.

Speaking of lenses, the Jupiter 8 and 9 produce a smooth, old world look. Out of focus areas are as smooth as butter. In a different more refinded way, the Jupiter 8, which is 50mm is very pleasing, but again you may want to send the lens off to Oleg for an overhaul. - The Jupiter 9, again when properly serviced, is the gem of a lens for throwing backing grounds out of focus.