X-Pro 1's Achilles' Heel

[CopperB]

I took my x-pro 1 to a club to shoot The English Beat last night, hoping its high ISO performance would shine. The lighting was, as expected, terrible. What didn't shine was its AF. The focus lag was horrendous. The EVF was desperate. I had most success using the OVF to get any chance of a shot in focus. Even then, the focus was hit or miss. MF wasn't useable in the low light and trying to guesstimate via distance was a bust. Pretty disappointing especially because I was hoping I could start leaving the dSLR at home for concerts/clubs. Perhaps it will perform more reliably at larger concert venues with pro lighting. Here's the best I could do, given the light, camera, and inability to vary my position without being trampled. All were shot with the 35mm 1.4

ISO 5000 f1.4


ISO 6400 f2


ISO 5000 f1.4


ISO 5000 f2


ISO 5000 f2

[rover]

Those are great shots.

[gavinlg]

Make sure you pick points of contrast to focus on. So for instance when you have a guy standing with stage lights behind him, try to focus on the side of his head, which is shadowed, contrasting with the bright stage lights behind him, instead of trying to focus on his face which is one big low contrast shadow. Same with any AF camera, although mirrorless cameras take a little more care with this.

[rxmd]

Contrast AF in "ISO 5000 f/1.4" type lighting is always going to be a challenge I guess, and guesstimating at f/1.4 is hit and miss with any camera.

Either way there are great shots.

[gavinlg]

Also, I'll quickly note that the focussing speed will surely be upgraded through the next few firmware updates - the x100 started off as a slow focuser but after a few little updates it's truly quite impressive now. Focusses better than my 5d in most situations.

[floyd]

Finding this one of the real frustrations of this camera, superb clean images at high ISO if you can get the AF to work which it doesn't always do even in high contrast areas.

[celluloidprop]

Originally Posted by gavinlg

Also, I'll quickly note that the focussing speed will surely be upgraded through the next few firmware updates - the x100 started off as a slow focuser but after a few little updates it's truly quite impressive now. Focusses better than my 5d in most situations.

We don't know that, necessarily. The XP1 already has the benefit of the X100's year of firmware development. The X100 can also have AF optimized for a single, light lens.

[Aristophanes]

I tried the X-Pro 1 in the camera store and, as I like to do when I go in in the evening and talk to the sales staff, I asked them to dim the lights to check out the low-light performance.

For an AF camera, the AF is not very good. For a very expensive camera, the AF is not very good. In fact, it wasn't very good in better light. Too many shots were a struggle. Used the 35mm lens at various apertures. I tried some manual focus...ugh.

So I took a Nikon D3100 out and tried the same and the D3100 blew the AF of the X-Pro 1 out of the water. No contest, the smaller Nikon DSLR won handily.

They did not have a Ricoh GXR for me to try as comparison. They were sold out of the Fuji X100's.

My conclusion is that the X-Pro 1 is an AF cameras by design, and the AF lags considerably what one would expect for the investment.

It was also bigger and heavier than I thought. Lenses look to be excellent and much cheaper than M-mount. Lens + body may be more compact than a DSLR, but giving up the DSLR's advantages like bang-on PDAF is a serious concern for the price of the X-Pro 1.

Confusing camera.

[Spyro]

Nice shots, I hope you didnt miss anything important.

Yep AF is a bit 90's to be honest
It gets a bit better with the 18mm, much lighter lens, less glass to move, and because of the larger dof prefocusing in zones becomes more relevant and usable. But you do lose one stop.

I think in those specific conditions your best bet would be a fast M lens with a real focusing ring wide open. That way you can see your dof even in the crappy EVF and move it around quickly, and if there's any smearing in the corners it's probably irrelevant for this kind of photo. But I'm yet to test and confirm all that, it's 4 weeks since I ordered my M adapter and Hong Kong post is still playing funny buggers

[CopperB]

Originally Posted by Spyro

Nice shots, I hope you didnt miss anything important.

Yep AF is a bit 90's to be honest
It gets a bit better with the 18mm, much lighter lens, less glass to move, and because of the larger dof prefocusing in zones becomes more relevant and usable. But you do lose one stop.

I think in those specific conditions your best bet would be a fast M lens with a real focusing ring wide open. That way you can see your dof even in the crappy EVF and move it around quickly, and if there's any smearing in the corners it's probably irrelevant for this kind of photo. But I'm yet to test and confirm all that, it's 4 weeks since I ordered my M adapter and Hong Kong post is still playing funny buggers

I've ordered a Kippon for my M mount glass. Hopefully that will improve things.

[furcafe]

Do you recall in which AF mode the demo was set, "Area" or "Multi"? So far, it seems that setting the AF mode to Area in the X-Pro1's Shooting menu + setting the focus mode switch on the front to S (Single AF) is the most like using a RF or "single point" + "single servo" on a Nikon dSLR. With these settings, the X-Pro1's AF appears to work reasonably quickly & accurately (but more like my old Kyocera Contax G2 than an autofocus SLR) in decent to bad light, @ least in my current "test drive" use.

Originally Posted by Aristophanes

I tried the X-Pro 1 in the camera store and, as I like to do when I go in in the evening and talk to the sales staff, I asked them to dim the lights to check out the low-light performance.

For an AF camera, the AF is not very good. For a very expensive camera, the AF is not very good. In fact, it wasn't very good in better light. Too many shots were a struggle. Used the 35mm lens at various apertures. I tried some manual focus...ugh.

So I took a Nikon D3100 out and tried the same and the D3100 blew the AF of the X-Pro 1 out of the water. No contest, the smaller Nikon DSLR won handily.

They did not have a Ricoh GXR for me to try as comparison. They were sold out of the Fuji X100's.

My conclusion is that the X-Pro 1 is an AF cameras by design, and the AF lags considerably what one would expect for the investment.

It was also bigger and heavier than I thought. Lenses look to be excellent and much cheaper than M-mount. Lens + body may be more compact than a DSLR, but giving up the DSLR's advantages like bang-on PDAF is a serious concern for the price of the X-Pro 1.

Confusing camera.

[N.delaRua]

Hmm I haven't shot an autofocus camera in a long time, but what EV does ISO 5000 @f/2 and 1/60th come out too? Would other cameras struggle in this limited lighting as well.

I bet I would have a pretty tough time focusing my M in that light with some definite misses... ohh and I would have to shoot 3200 B&W and never get that quality.

[CopperB]

Originally Posted by furcafe

Do you recall in which AF mode the demo was set, "Area" or "Multi"? So far, it seems that setting the AF mode to Area in the X-Pro1's Shooting menu + setting the focus mode switch on the front to S (Single AF) is the most like using a RF or "single point" + "single servo" on a Nikon dSLR. With these settings, the X-Pro1's AF appears to work reasonably quickly & accurately (but more like my old Kyocera Contax G2 than an autofocus SLR) in decent to bad light, @ least in my current "test drive" use.

Never thought of that. It was set to multi. I had it set to S although periodically I tried continuous focus. MF is a challenge for me at the best of times. I suffer from EOF (eyes over 50) ;0)

[furcafe]

Aha! In my experience for shooting shows, multi (or "Auto-area" or "Dynamic-area" in Nikon dSLRese) = bad, bad, AF! E.g., even though the D700 has some modest facial-recognition programming, when set to Auto-area, it invariable chooses to focus on microphones instead of singers's faces. That's why I resort to using single-point on the D700, just like I would w/an RF patch or the old split-image circle on a manual focus SLR.

Originally Posted by CopperB

Never thought of that. It was set to multi. I had it set to S although periodically I tried continuous focus. MF is a challenge for me at the best of times. I suffer from EOF (eyes over 50) ;0)

[willie_901]

Originally Posted by CopperB

Never thought of that. It was set to multi. I had it set to S although periodically I tried continuous focus. MF is a challenge for me at the best of times. I suffer from EOF (eyes over 50) ;0)

Using the APS-C X cameras in this situation with focus mode set to multi instead of area mode is like reporting a flaw in running shoes when you've put them in the wrong feet.

The APS-C X cameras contrast detection AF is not the systems strongest technology. This makes even more important to understand how to get the most out of the system. This requires reading the manual, reading tutorials on-line and practicing.

I would bet a lot of money the OP's keeper rate under identical conditions would be similar to any other camera lens combination once they learn how to use the camera.

When I bought a D200 it was my first camera with an advanced, multi- purpose AF system. The first time I tried to shoot a sports event the results were terrible... nothing was in focus. Then I read a detailed article on Nikonians about how to configure the D200 AF parameters for action photography. After some practice I got my first paid gig shooting sports and was even rehired numerous times.

It's Fuji's fault they did not put a more advanced AF system in the XP1. But it is not their fault someone was frustrated with the AF in difficult circumstances when the operational parameters were not optimized.

[furcafe]

Exactly. As I just mentioned to a friend, the artificial intelligence in the X-Pro1/X100's "Multi" autofocus is just plain stupider than that in a dSLR (& the AF AI in even a D700's AF is pretty stupid as I mentioned above), probably because it's got a smaller "brain," so users have to step up & be smarter.

Originally Posted by willie_901

Using the APS-C X cameras in this situation with focus mode set to multi instead of area mode is like reporting a flaw in running shoes when you've put them in the wrong feet.

The APS-C X cameras contrast detection AF is not the systems strongest technology. This makes even more important to understand how to get the most out of the system. This requires reading the manual, reading tutorials on-line and practicing.

I would bet a lot of money the OP's keeper rate under identical conditions would be similar to any other camera lens combination once they learn how to use the camera.

When I bought a D200 it was my first camera with an advanced, multi- purpose AF system. The first time I tried to shoot a sports event the results were terrible... nothing was in focus. Then I read a detailed article on Nikonians about how to configure the D200 AF parameters for action photography. After some practice I got my first paid gig shooting sports and was even rehired numerous times.

It's Fuji's fault they did not put a more advanced AF system in the XP1. But it is not their fault someone was frustrated with the AF in difficult circumstances when the operational parameters were not optimized.

[CopperB]

Originally Posted by willie_901

Using the APS-C X cameras in this situation with focus mode set to multi instead of area mode is like reporting a flaw in running shoes when you've put them in the wrong feet.

The APS-C X cameras contrast detection AF is not the systems strongest technology. This makes even more important to understand how to get the most out of the system. This requires reading the manual, reading tutorials on-line and practicing.

I would bet a lot of money the OP's keeper rate under identical conditions would be similar to any other camera lens combination once they learn how to use the camera.

When I bought a D200 it was my first camera with an advanced, multi- purpose AF system. The first time I tried to shoot a sports event the results were terrible... nothing was in focus. Then I read a detailed article on Nikonians about how to configure the D200 AF parameters for action photography. After some practice I got my first paid gig shooting sports and was even rehired numerous times.

It's Fuji's fault they did not put a more advanced AF system in the XP1. But it is not their fault someone was frustrated with the AF in difficult circumstances when the operational parameters were not optimized.

AF was actually set to area. Manual has been read. I've shot a lot of concerts so I'm familiar with the quirks of this genre. This was my first time out with the xpro1. I agree that once I figure a way around this weakness, my keeper rate will improve. That doesn't negate the fact that the AF system in this camera is much less than stellar considering the price tag.

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by furcafe

Do you recall in which AF mode the demo was set, "Area" or "Multi"? So far, it seems that setting the AF mode to Area in the X-Pro1's Shooting menu + setting the focus mode switch on the front to S (Single AF) is the most like using a RF or "single point" + "single servo" on a Nikon dSLR. With these settings, the X-Pro1's AF appears to work reasonably quickly & accurately (but more like my old Kyocera Contax G2 than an autofocus SLR) in decent to bad light, @ least in my current "test drive" use.

Yes, this is correct. It's how I use my Fuji and I don't have the issues people talk about.

[furcafe]

Perhaps there just aren't enough people who learned how to use the G1 & G2s properly ! IIRC, the root of many complaints about the G1/G2's AF stemmed from the fact that they didn't focus like SLRs. It looks to me like the X100 & X-Pro1 are suffering from the same conceptual disconnect by many users. Bottom line: set it so it uses the central focus area (patch) & use it like an RF!

Originally Posted by jsrockit

Yes, this is correct. It's how I use my Fuji and I don't have the issues people talk about.

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by furcafe

Perhaps there just aren't enough people who learned how to use the G1 & G2s properly ! IIRC, the root of many complaints about the G1/G2's AF stemmed from the fact that they didn't focus like SLRs. It looks to me like the X100 & X-Pro1 are suffering from the same conceptual disconnect by many users. Bottom line: set it so it uses the central focus area (patch) & use it like an RF!

Well, you're right I think. I'm used to Leica M cameras and also used the G1. I'm so used to the focus with the middle patch (whether RF patch or AF patch) and recompose that I never understand people's frustrations regarding the AF. However, if I came from a multi-point, continuous AF camera, I guess I'd be having similar issues.

[nickw]

Originally Posted by furcafe

Do you recall in which AF mode the demo was set, "Area" or "Multi"? So far, it seems that setting the AF mode to Area in the X-Pro1's Shooting menu + setting the focus mode switch on the front to S (Single AF) is the most like using a RF or "single point" + "single servo" on a Nikon dSLR. With these settings, the X-Pro1's AF appears to work reasonably quickly & accurately (but more like my old Kyocera Contax G2 than an autofocus SLR) in decent to bad light, @ least in my current "test drive" use.

I use the camera with single point focus. Have no problems.

Originally Posted by gavinlg

Make sure you pick points of contrast to focus on. So for instance when you have a guy standing with stage lights behind him, try to focus on the side of his head, which is shadowed, contrasting with the bright stage lights behind him, instead of trying to focus on his face which is one big low contrast shadow. Same with any AF camera, although mirrorless cameras take a little more care with this.

This makes it way easier. Pick points of contrast.



And one more things I do which helps:
I switch to manual focus, then hit the AF-L button. Even in manual focus it causes the camera to auto focus. You can see in the DoF scale if it found the right spot or not. This works really well in low light. In fact it work so well I do it in daylight. It's the quickest way to focus and it works well. Then you also don't have to worry about the camera picking a new focus point when you half press the shutter.



So to recap. When doing these 3 things I haven't had problems:
1. Single point AF
2. Pick points of contrast
3. Use manual focus but still have the camera do it for you via AF-L.

[furcafe]

Per my exchange w/JHutchins, may I ask how you figured this out? Messing w/the camera? Prior experience w/the X100 or something? Because it's not mentioned in the manual (@ least the English version) & seems to be counterintuitive (why should an AF-L button do anything when you're Manual focus mode?).

Thanks, Chris

Edit: My bad, it is mentioned in the manual (page 45) , but it still wouldn't naturally occur to me to look in the M section for how to use the AF-L button (this may account for my incompetence to practice corporate law). My other complaint about the AE-L/AF-L button not focusing in S or C mode still stands, however.

Originally Posted by nickw

I switch to manual focus, then hit the AF-L button. Even in manual focus it causes the camera to auto focus. You can see in the DoF scale if it found the right spot or not. This works really well in low light. In fact it work so well I do it in daylight. It's the quickest way to focus and it works well. Then you also don't have to worry about the camera picking a new focus point when you half press the shutter.

[dcsang]

Originally Posted by furcafe

Per my exchange w/JHutchins, may I ask how you figured this out? Messing w/the camera? Prior experience w/the X100 or something? Because it's not mentioned in the manual (@ least the English version) & seems to be counterintuitive (why should an AF-L button do anything when you're Manual focus mode?).

Thanks, Chris

Chris,

I figured this out after switching the camera from "S" (single) or "C" (continuous) to "M" (manual) focus and having it in "EVF" mode - I noted that something pops up in the EVF within the viewfinder - it says ""AF-L One-Touch AF".

It's not intuitive but it is rather cool once you figure it out

Cheers,
Dave

[gavinlg]

Originally Posted by furcafe

My other complaint about the AE-L/AF-L button not focusing in S or C mode still stands, however.

Treat the AF-L button as a lock button. First AF where you want it to be, and then press the AF-L button. Now the focus is locked at that distance.

It's really not that hard, and works very well if you just play ball and use it the way it's supposed to be used.

[RealXenuis]

I disagree. It's more expensive than some better performing AF cameras, sure. I find the IQ, handling, lens quality, etc etc, to make it more than worth the price. My experience (I own the 35 and the 18, not exp with the 60 but it's on the way). I do agree that the AF is a weakness, in that it could be both faster and consistent. It's not confusing to us that understood what we were getting and why??

Originally Posted by Aristophanes

I tried the X-Pro 1 in the camera store and, as I like to do when I go in in the evening and talk to the sales staff, I asked them to dim the lights to check out the low-light performance.

For an AF camera, the AF is not very good. For a very expensive camera, the AF is not very good. In fact, it wasn't very good in better light. Too many shots were a struggle. Used the 35mm lens at various apertures. I tried some manual focus...ugh.

So I took a Nikon D3100 out and tried the same and the D3100 blew the AF of the X-Pro 1 out of the water. No contest, the smaller Nikon DSLR won handily.

They did not have a Ricoh GXR for me to try as comparison. They were sold out of the Fuji X100's.

My conclusion is that the X-Pro 1 is an AF cameras by design, and the AF lags considerably what one would expect for the investment.

It was also bigger and heavier than I thought. Lenses look to be excellent and much cheaper than M-mount. Lens + body may be more compact than a DSLR, but giving up the DSLR's advantages like bang-on PDAF is a serious concern for the price of the X-Pro 1.

Confusing camera.