Why choose the M2 over the M4?

[Asim]

Simple question... what is the advantage of the M2 over the M4? The M4 has all the features of the M2 except for the rewind lever. The M4 even has a better film inserting system. It's even a newer body.

[filmfan]

A: Simple frame-lines and it's a few hundred dollars cheaper. There are also an abundance of M2s around.

[cicala]

simple frame lines and rewind lever old style , after two rolls you can insert film with no problems ...........they are two fantastic camera I think that the best is what you like more ......

[Benjamin Marks]

I think the answer is that not everyone would. But for those that would, the two previous posters have identified the answer. Arguments for the M4 are a camera that is 20 years "newer," has less wear on all mechanical and optical components, is compatible with all modern accessories (e.g. Rapidwinder, motor drive) without modification, has a wider viewfinder (if you like 28's 24's etc.). I had an M4-P that I liked very much, but I sold it to get the light meter in my M6. Kept my M3s though. And later, much later, bought an M2. I think all these cameras feel great in the hand and respond in the way you expect and M camera to.

[B-9]

Originally Posted by Benjamin Marks

I think the answer is that not everyone would. But for those that would, the two previous posters have identified the answer. Arguments for the M4 are a camera that is 20 years "newer," has less wear on all mechanical and optical components, is compatible with all modern accessories (e.g. Rapidwinder, motor drive) without modification, has a wider viewfinder (if you like 28's 24's etc.). I had an M4-P that I liked very much, but I sold it to get the light meter in my M6. Kept my M3s though. And later, much later, bought an M2. I think all these cameras feel great in the hand and respond in the way you expect and M camera to.

The Leicavit-MP works with the M2, along with the M1 and MD
Tom A. Still has the rapidwinder-ixmoo up, this is also for the M2

I think the classic look and feel gives a certain allure!

[Benjamin Marks]

Originally Posted by thomasw_

I think you are mistaken, as the M2 and M4 have the same ,72x VFs (the M4 has 135 lines). Both have the 35 lines as the widest. Both VFs are useable with a 28mm if one uses the entire VF to frame. IIRC, the M4-P was the first M to show the 28 lines.

Hmm. I have a 35 bolted onto my M2, so you could be right. I used a 28 on my M4-P often. Thanks for the catch. - Ben

[Richard G]

Even the external film counter of the M2 is admired now as a piece of minimalist functionality. The absence of the self-timer on mine is much valued by me and many others for the generous hand-holding real estate freed up on that side of the camera. Some find the M4 advance lever shape, leaving aside the plastic tip, a design element that prevents them sleeping. The rewind is more robust, and if it is properly adjusted and lubricated it works brilliantly. In the M2 you have a meter-less MP, no plastic. Fifty years on you have in your hand the exact form of the top of the range brand new Leica film rangefinder. Not bad.

I loved my M4 but it was stolen. I might yet get another.

[Phil_F_NM]

Not everyone loves the M4 film loading. In theory, it is faster but in reality the M4 "tulip" has indeed let a few people down, myself included. One has to be careful about making sure the film is really engaged to both the tulip and the sprocket or else you may find out on frame 41...

Meanwhile, I never once mis-loaded my M2.

I also recently have begun to prefer the rewind of the M2 and M3 over the "modern" M4 through M7 rewind lever simply because there is a clutch that prevents the tension of the film from pulling the rewind lever and spinning it back like a spring. A total pain in the a$$ sometimes. The M2's rewind design is much more elegant.

Phil Forrest

[MikeL]

The best thing about the M2 is the simple 35, 50, 90 framelines. I really don't like the 75 framelines when using a 50 on the later Ms, but since I have a 75....

Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM

Not everyone loves the M4 film loading. In theory, it is faster but in reality the M4 "tulip" has indeed let a few people down, myself included. One has to be careful about making sure the film is really engaged to both the tulip and the sprocket or else you may find out on frame 41...
Meanwhile, I never once mis-loaded my M2.

The take up spools on the M2-M3 and barnacks grip the film and increase the likelihood that the sprocket will engage the holes in the film correctly. I know some on here crimp the film on M4-MP bodies to ensure the tulip helps pull the film onto the sprocket in a similar manner.

But you can load an M4-MP without the tulip in there, since it is ultimately the sprockets that drive the film across. Of course, without the tulip, eventually you can have a problem as the film is stuffed in the chamber (rather getting wound on the tulip or the cylinder in the M2-M3 quick loaders). If one ensures the holes are engaged in the sprockets before closing the back door (on the M4-MP, I hold my thumb over the sprocket as I do the first wind, on the barnacks, I look to make sure they are engaged), you'll never have a problem with the load.

[KoNickon]

Well, the rewind crank enables you to rapidly rewind without letting go of it, so the "spin back" you describe shouldn't be an issue. I love the look of the angled crank -- classic M camera look. The M2 rewind knob (and M3 also) is as nice as such things can be (try a Zorki 4K for contrast), but it's still much less convenient than the crank. My two cents.

I agree that you have to be vigilant on film takeup with the M4, but if you take up the slack you'll know right away if the film didn't catch. The M5 is worse in this regard since the rewind crank on the M5 doesn't spin when film is wound, so you don't get that feedback.

[d_c]

Originally Posted by Asim

Why choose the M2 over the M4?

I've owned both at different times and I still have the M4, so I wouldn't go for the M2, and unless there was a cost factor in the equation then this would probably be my preference every time. The finders are basically the same unless you use a 135, and mechanically there isn't that much to separate them as a user. However I really prefer the newer style of film loading / rewinding, and I really really disliked the M2 frame counter.

[shadowfox]

You have to reset the film counter manually with M2 correct?
That's one more thing to forget doing.
Why would anyone think that this is a good idea?

Get M4-P...
which to this day, I still don't get people saying that its viewfinder is "cluttered"

[rover]

Originally Posted by shadowfox

You have to reset the film counter manually with M2 correct?
That's one more thing to forget doing.
Why would anyone think that this is a good idea?

Get M4-P...
which to this day, I still don't get people saying that its viewfinder is "cluttered"

I never reset mine. The counter keeps spinning so I just keep shooting until I run out of film.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by shadowfox

You have to reset the film counter manually with M2 correct?
That's one more thing to forget doing.
Why would anyone think that this is a good idea?

Not really an issue if you're exchanging a 36 roll like for like though does it anyway, I love the simple quality of the M2. It's a proper work horse camera. The M4 is lovely of course, but I don't feel that the advantages deserve to command such a premium over the other models.

Definitely a good pose machine though, if that's what you're after.

[Richard G]

Originally Posted by shadowfox

You have to reset the film counter manually with M2 correct?
That's one more thing to forget doing.
Why would anyone think that this is a good idea?

Get M4-P...
which to this day, I still don't get people saying that its viewfinder is "cluttered"

I like the M2 film counter. Recently I was worried that I had misloaded the M5. I opened the baseplate. I hadn't. What had been wound on was ruined so I just closed the camera and retook the shots I'd just taken. But on opening and closing the camera the counter was reset. I must have forgotten the early spurious finish of that roll, and on the next roll when I got to 33 I figured I must have only one shot at most left so took a finish the roll shot, but they just kept coming, nothing shots. If I had been able to manually reset the counter I could have finished on 38 as usual.

[shadowfox]

Originally Posted by Richard G

I like the M2 film counter. Recently I was worried that I had misloaded the M5. I opened the baseplate. I hadn't. What had been wound on was ruined so I just closed the camera and retook the shots I'd just taken. But on opening and closing the camera the counter was reset. I must have forgotten the early spurious finish of that roll, and on the next roll when I got to 33 I figured I must have only one shot at most left so took a finish the roll shot, but they just kept coming, nothing shots. If I had been able to manually reset the counter I could have finished on 38 as usual.

Not trying to nitpick, but can't you just observe the film rewind to see if it's rotating when you advance the film. If it is, you're okay, if not, then you're not loading the film properly. I don't see why you need to open the base plate.

[Richard G]

Originally Posted by shadowfox

Not trying to nitpick, but can't you just observe the film rewind to see if it's rotating when you advance the film. If it is, you're okay, if not, then you're not loading the film properly. I don't see why you need to open the base plate.

Sometimes the film is slack and absence of rotation in the first few frames is not actually reliable evidence of a misload. I have been slow to master the M5 loading. One misload of an M6 in 15 years. No misload of the M2 in 35 years.

[Roger Hicks]

Availability: what comes up first. Less flare in the viewfinder. A (perhaps false) sense of history, and of being a 'purist'. How much does it matter? I have both an M2 and an M4-P. I like the M2 with a RapidWinder better than the M4-P, but the simple truth is, they're all pretty good, and anyone who gets excessively excited about which non-metered Leica to use is probably speaking from either limited experience or an excess of semi-religious fervour.

Cheers,

R.

[digitalintrigue]

Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

the simple truth is, they're all pretty good.

Yup. It's all personal preference. I can shoot with any of them.

Cluttered framelines don't matter to me (I never found them to be so.)

Rewind cranks or knobs? Never had a preference...

Frame counter: I do prefer an automatic counter. I could simply shoot til the end of the roll, but sometimes I like to know how close I am to the end, before I get there...so I can fire off a couple of frames and get another roll loaded in advance of approaching subject matter, so I don't have to reload in the middle of important action.

Loading, M4 loads faster for me, but it's no biggie to load an M2. I don't shoot rapidfire and have to load all that often anyway...

All that said, I use an M4.

[jsolanzo]

Made in canada vs made in wetzlar could also be a factor.

[Phil_F_NM]

Originally Posted by jsolanzo

Made in canada vs made in wetzlar could also be a factor.

Only in price though.
I absolutely believe that there was no difference in the quality of Canadian Leicas over German ones. And if you have a Canadian M4 then you have a rarity, for sure. In my opinion, as is that of many others, the finest lenses in Leicas entire history were made in Midland. But I digress. This thread is about the M2 v. M4 which, for the most part, were all produced in Wetzlar.

Phil Forrest

[filmtwit]

If I remember correctly 99% of the M4 line was made in Germany with a handful made in Canada.

The M4-2 and the M4p are the made Canada as a whole.

Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM

Only in price though.
I absolutely believe that there was no difference in the quality of Canadian Leicas over German ones. And if you have a Canadian M4 then you have a rarity, for sure. In my opinion, as is that of many others, the finest lenses in Leicas entire history were made in Midland. But I digress. This thread is about the M2 v. M4 which, for the most part, were all produced in Wetzlar.

Phil Forrest

[red snapper]

M4P for sheer convenience. Personally I think its the best camera Leica ever made. Managed to recently get one in almost mint condition for £500 to use along with the M7, which is another favourite. As a working photographer really can't be bothered with fiddly loading and re-setting film counters.

[peter_n]

The solitary framelines and the film rewind on the M2. Plus I also use an MP3 which is essentially an M2 with a meter.

[Frontman]

I have an M2, M3, two M4's, and an M6, I prefer the M4. I like the M4's film counter, rewind crank, and lack of a separate film spool. Were both cameras available in the same quantities, and at the same price, most people would likely prefer the M4. But it pays to shop around, I paid less for my M4's than I paid for my M3 or M2.