Thoughts on digital Ms....

[kbg32]

I own two digital Ms. I bought the M8 for myself when I turned 50. I had funds saved away in anticipation. Three months after my purchase, the shutter went. I was happy upon its return and used it without incident until the M9 was released. 11 1/2 months after its purchase, the shutter went, 2 weeks before my warranty expires. While it was at Leitz, I had them check the sensor, as every 100 or so images captured, I would get a file with a horizontal line through it, but never in the same place. As well, there would be a random DNG that I could not open, but the JPEG was fine. My camera, 4 weeks on, is still sitting in New Jersey waiting for a replacement sensor from Germany. They are backordered.

Since I sent the M9 in for repair, Kodak has been undergoing quite a lot of turmoil. Having to sell off its sensor division to raise much needed capital, I wonder not when, but if I'll see my camera before the end of the year? I have called them, but the sensors still have not arrived. I find it strange that the sensors have to be sent to Germany before any are sent to Leitz NJ.

I guess what I am getting at, if I had to buy a digital M, knowing what I know now, I might not do it. I can't stand by its reliability. I can't go on a trip and have nothing else with me as a backup, because I never know if in that moment of photographing, if I press the shutter, will the camera respond.

Don't get me wrong, I love the files the digital Ms produce. I believe second to none. My files just have something that no other camera can come close to. For years, all I owned, and took with me everywhere were two M4s and just two lenses. In 30 years they never failed me. EVER.

Sorry. I am feeling melancholy and I just had to release....

[Phil_F_NM]

Completely agree. I sympathize with you. I've owned both an M8 and M9. Over the last few years of using them, about 20% of that time has been spent at Leica NJ. Between both cameras, they have spent almost a combined year in repair.
The files they make are the finest available in miniature format, hands down. Regardless, the reliability of the M8 and M9 have led me to sell the M8 and I'm planning on selling the M9 within the 11 months left of my factory warranty. They both have driven me back to using my M4 and buying an M4-P. As for digital and deadline work, I'm going to get a D2x and some awesome Nikkors and be happy.

Phil Forrest

[Tom Niblick]

While I've been using Leicas since 1969, it was never ending QC issues and unfair repair charges with my digital Nikons, Nikkor lenses and Nikon scanners - in particular piss poor service from Nikon Repair in Torrance CA - that prompted me to purchase a M8 and then a M9. My M8 was 99% trouble free and my M9 has had no issues (well I did have a SD card fail but that was probably not a camera issue).

I use my cameras professionally but 90% of my work is done with 4x5s so I probably fall into the 5,000 to 15,000 exposure per year category with my Leica. My Nikons would clock 2 or 3 times that many exposures but I have since dropped catalog work from my services offered. Not a lot use compared to others but enough to justify a decent camera. FWIW: I do baby my cameras and use Pelican cases when traveling and on the water.

Point is, everyone has a different experience, but we all swear at or swear by our gear.

[Jimbot]

I bought my M9 from an authorised seller in late June this year. By early September it had developed the "False Low Battery Message" Issue. Since early September it has sat with the authorised repairer in Melbourne waiting for the part to arrive from Germany to effect the warranty repair.

Although I accept that with some camera lines and individual cameras there may be some issues that will require warranty claims I cannot accept Leica's apparently poor attention to assist in completion of warranty claims. I hasten to add that I am not critical of the poor front end repairers but, from my reading here and on other fora discussing issues with digital Leicas the theme is often repeated - bought camera, repairer helpful but long delay in supply of parts by manufacturer.

[Messsucherkamera]

Originally Posted by Phil_F_NM

Completely agree. I sympathize with you. I've owned both an M8 and M9. Over the last few years of using them, about 20% of that time has been spent at Leica NJ. Between both cameras, they have spent almost a combined year in repair.
The files they make are the finest available in miniature format, hands down. Regardless, the reliability of the M8 and M9 have led me to sell the M8 and I'm planning on selling the M9 within the 11 months left of my factory warranty. They both have driven me back to using my M4 and buying an M4-P. As for digital and deadline work, I'm going to get a D2x and some awesome Nikkors and be happy.

Phil Forrest

Reading posts like this and the original poster's story of woe really puts the brakes on my thoughts of buying an M9-P. I never cared for the M8/8.2 due to its miniature sensor. The M9 removed that objection but apparently it is not without its own inherent problems.

This makes me think that sticking with my film Leicas and shooting film is the way to go. Yes, film costs money - $3.99US for Kodak Tri-X 36 at B&H and about $0.40US per roll to develop my own Tri-X. some will find fault with film cameras on this point. As for me, I say so what??

I can buy and process a whole hell of alot of Tri-X for $8000US, plus sales tax or shipping and insurance, which is the cost of an M9-P.

Computers cost money; external hard drives for backup cost money; iPads cost money; software costs money; printers cost money; Color Munkis cost money; card readers cost money; memory cards cost money; inks and printing papers cost money. Digital is far from free once you buy the camera, which is a point many digital disciples conveniently overlook.

With all the tons of cash one has to invest to get set up to work digitally, I can't see an economic advantage to digital. The one place digital reigns supreme is in convenience and instant gratificatiion for the impatient - there's no denying that. But that instant gratification comes at a horridly high cost.

Professional photographers who shoot weddings and commercial jobs or who work in photojournalism may well have to bite the bullet and endure the economic bloodletting that digital requires to get set up - and to keep up with the latest advances in technology. That goes back the demands of the client or the boss for instant gratification - I get that. But still, the godawfully high price of admission to the digital realm remains.

I know that this post will cause some who work digitally to take great umbrage. All I'm saying is that for alot of applications, working with film and film cameras makes alot of sense - economically and otherwise.

Case in point: After 90 months of use, my MP needed some minor work. Sherry Krauter repaired it for $127 (plus shipping & insurance). My M4-P is still running strong after two years of use with no repairs needed (yet). Not a bad track record of reliability in my opinion, given that Phil's M8 and M9 have spent 20% of their life at Leica NJ in the repair shop (that has got to suck, Phil - I feel your pain). Film or digital, every camera is going to crap out at some point. It appears that for film M cameras, that point is a long time in coming compared to the digital M cameras.

I'm not here to "dog" anyone or their camera choice or the way they choose to create photographs, whether it's by film, digital or wet plate. I'm just saying that film Leicas seem to be alot more reliable than M8 and M9 cameras. Film Leicas are alot more economical to purchase and do not require thousands and thousands of dollars in computers and other electronic equipment to support their use. Film Leicas also seem to be readily repairable by numerous technicians; they also have a vast supply of parts that are readily available. Not so (apparently) with sensors and some other repair components for the M8/M9.

It all comes down to this: Digital offers one set of advantages and problems, film offers another. We pick whichever set we can best operate and live with. Some people demand instant gratification. Some demand to hell and back reliability. I choose the latter, not the former so I stick with film Leicas (and Nikons).

Just some food for thought. Your milage may vary.

[Mrbessar4a]

The idea that "no other camera comes close" to the output of your digital M, is just not accurate. I'm pretty sure a Pentax 645D more than surpases the quality of an M9. Same goes with the D3X or the 5D Mark II with the right optics. Hell even the X100 is better than the M8 within it's limitations.

*shrug*

I'm just saying don't box yourself into thinking you can't make quality pictures if your not using a Leica.

[LCT]

Originally Posted by Mrbessar4a

...even the X100 is better than the M8 within it's limitations...

Matter of tastes...

[Mrbessar4a]

Originally Posted by LCT

Matter of tastes...

Exactly my point. If you go around thinking that you can only make good pictures with one kind of camera you're ignoring what's out there. My taste perfers how Fuji renders color, and the 23mm EBC is outstanding. If you don't think so that's okay, but I'm sure if you were given an X100 as a gift you would manage to make it work for you. And I don't think that "nothing comes close" to it at all. I know lots of things do. If all the X100s in the world fell into hell, I'd find another camera and make it work for me.

[kbg32]

Originally Posted by Mrbessar4a

The idea that "no other camera comes close" to the output of your digital M, is just not accurate. I'm pretty sure a Pentax 645D more than surpases the quality of an M9. Same goes with the D3X or the 5D Mark II with the right optics. Hell even the X100 is better than the M8 within it's limitations.

*shrug*

I'm just saying don't box yourself into thinking you can't make quality pictures if your not using a Leica.

For what I use, yes. Matter of taste. Medium format is not for me. Defeats the purpose of carrying around a compact system.

[Mrbessar4a]

Originally Posted by kbg32

For what I use, yes. Matter of taste. Medium format is not for me. Defeats the purpose of carrying around a compact system.

Well a Pentax K-5 is just as small as an M9, very compact! And the, Limited lenses are MUCH smaller than Leica lenses, except maybe the Summarits that hardly anybody talks about. It's also quieter than an M4, and has all the dynamic range the M9 doesn't have, and all the high ISO the M9 SHOULD have, and the price that looks very good compared to Leica luxury. Anybody who likes Leica glass should like Pentax Limited glass. All metal gorgeous constructions, unique characteristics, perfect contrast and bokeh... There's an option!

I didn't mean that you should go out and buy a 645D, you just said that nothing comes close to Leica quality. That's just a myth I'm tired of hearing. Most camera systems come very close and in some cases surpass. People just LIKE using Leica's, as I do! But they're not better than anything else out there at anything other than BEING handmade rangefinders.

[Mrbessar4a]

Originally Posted by Messsucherkamera

Reading posts like this and the original poster's story of woe really puts the brakes on my thoughts of buying an M9-P. I never cared for the M8/8.2 due to its miniature sensor. The M9 removed that objection but apparently it is not without its own inherent problems.

This makes me think that sticking with my film Leicas and shooting film is the way to go. Yes, film costs money - $3.99US for Kodak Tri-X 36 at B&H and about $0.40US per roll to develop my own Tri-X. some will find fault with film cameras on this point. As for me, I say so what??

I can buy and process a whole hell of alot of Tri-X for $8000US, plus sales tax or shipping and insurance, which is the cost of an M9-P.

Computers cost money; external hard drives for backup cost money; iPads cost money; software costs money; printers cost money; Color Munkis cost money; card readers cost money; memory cards cost money; inks and printing papers cost money. Digital is far from free once you buy the camera, which is a point many digital disciples conveniently overlook.

With all the tons of cash one has to invest to get set up to work digitally, I can't see an economic advantage to digital. The one place digital reigns supreme is in convenience and instant gratificatiion for the impatient - there's no denying that. But that instant gratification comes at a horridly high cost.

Professional photographers who shoot weddings and commercial jobs or who work in photojournalism may well have to bite the bullet and endure the economic bloodletting that digital requires to get set up - and to keep up with the latest advances in technology. That goes back the demands of the client or the boss for instant gratification - I get that. But still, the godawfully high price of admission to the digital realm remains.

I know that this post will cause some who work digitally to take great umbrage. All I'm saying is that for alot of applications, working with film and film cameras makes alot of sense - economically and otherwise.

Case in point: After 90 months of use, my MP needed some minor work. Sherry Krauter repaired it for $127 (plus shipping & insurance). My M4-P is still running strong after two years of use with no repairs needed (yet). Not a bad track record of reliability in my opinion, given that Phil's M8 and M9 have spent 20% of their life at Leica NJ in the repair shop (that has got to suck, Phil - I feel your pain). Film or digital, every camera is going to crap out at some point. It appears that for film M cameras, that point is a long time in coming compared to the digital M cameras.

I'm not here to "dog" anyone or their camera choice or the way they choose to create photographs, whether it's by film, digital or wet plate. I'm just saying that film Leicas seem to be alot more reliable than M8 and M9 cameras. Film Leicas are alot more economical to purchase and do not require thousands and thousands of dollars in computers and other electronic equipment to support their use. Film Leicas also seem to be readily repairable by numerous technicians; they also have a vast supply of parts that are readily available. Not so (apparently) with sensors and some other repair components for the M8/M9.

It all comes down to this: Digital offers one set of advantages and problems, film offers another. We pick whichever set we can best operate and live with. Some people demand instant gratification. Some demand to hell and back reliability. I choose the latter, not the former so I stick with film Leicas (and Nikons).

Just some food for thought. Your milage may vary.

Film is film and film is great, but if you want to share your pictures these days to a wider audience digital is the fastest and easiest way to go. If you wanna do those things you gotta buy everything you listed plus a scanner. There are trade offs. Luckily most people have computers anyways, and photography isn't that expensive when you're not buying Leica.

[hausen]

Have to admit that I am often tempted to exit my M9. Have had some major dramas with Sd cards deleting files & freezing camera and such and is always when I am away somewhere. Left my M9 at home when I was away last weekend and only took my X100 for digital, along with M6 +Xpan and I was pleasantly surprised how convenient it was and was really happy with the results.

[MCTuomey]

Hard to imagine owners describing their Leicas much the same way I remember hearing owners describe their 60's era British sports cars ...

My experience is much like David's. I've had the "low battery" repair, more recently SD card problems (still awaiting the firmware fix). Leica was excellent on the repair side, but it doesn't help my confidence. In many years of use, some in harsh conditions, I've never had one of my Canon dSLRs fail me. And since I've been shooting RF, I've never had a film M fail me.

Digital M's are a labor of love and patience, punctuated with the joy their files bring when all's working well.

[Rafael]

Originally Posted by MCTuomey

(still awaiting the firmware fix)

The new firmware was released today and is available for download on the Leica site.

[MCTuomey]

Marc, thanks for the heads-up.

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by kbg32

My camera, 4 weeks on, is still sitting in New Jersey waiting for a replacement sensor from Germany. They are backordered.

Well, there goes my theory that Leica stockpiled these sensors for future replacement / repairs. Scary.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

Well, there goes my theory that Leica stockpiled these sensors for future replacement / repairs. Scary.

So what happens if the supply of sensors for the M9 dries up? They can choose another sensor for the M10 obviously but where would that hypothetically leave current M9 owners with sensor problems?

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by Keith

but where would that hypothetically leave current M9 owners with sensor problems?

I'm currently in denial and choose not to think of this... It's very sad really... the M9 is my favorite camera I've ever used...and I've used a lot of cameras.

[jky]

Originally Posted by Keith

So what happens if the supply of sensors for the M9 dries up? They can choose another sensor for the M10 obviously but where would that hypothetically leave current M9 owners with sensor problems?

Does Leica service guarantee parts availability for "x" amount of years? I'm wondering as this would obviously be much simpler with manual/mechanical film cameras vs digital electro-gadgets.
My M9 is the only L camera I've purchased new and it's longevity (in terms of service) was a topic of much consideration prior to handing over the visa.

[dave lackey]

Sorry everybody has problems.

Tell ya what, I'll buy anyone's M8 or M9 for a thousand bucks each since they are so bad. Cash, no questions asked. Just PM me and we have a deal!

Oh, and you can have Nikon DSLRs... the last ones I owned, (total of $10 grand worth of Nikon cameras) had inexcusable problems, that I got rid of.

What's the old bumper sticker, stuff happens. That's great, I can't wait for the trickle down.

[dave lackey]

Has anyone had the idea that maybe, just maybe, they can contact Leica directly and ask them the questions that get asked on this forum? Seriously, has anyone tried and if so, what was the response(s)?

[Ken Ford]

I simply do not have enough risk capital to be able to afford a Leica digital M - an out-of-warranty failure would be ruinous even if I could afford to buy a body to begin with. It's not like a film M that can be repaired by numerous people in the aftermarket.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by Ken Ford

I simply do not have enough risk capital to be able to afford a Leica digital M - an out-of-warranty failure would be ruinous even if I could afford to buy a body to begin with. It's not like a film M that can be repaired by numerous people in the aftermarket.

Two years guaranty - one year extended - sell before three years are out and get a new one.

[Nikon Bob]

Originally Posted by jaapv

Two years guaranty - one year extended - sell before three years are out and get a new one.

With what is happening at Kodak you may be lucky to find somebody that wants to take a chance on a used M9 that is almost out of warranty.

Bob

[kbg32]

Originally Posted by jaapv

Two years guaranty - one year extended - sell before three years are out and get a new one.

For some of us, money does not grow on trees. I have invested in two digital Ms. Not like I can go out and purchase a third.

Sorry Jaap, with all due respect, I am not a dentist by profession.