View Full Version : Letter to Fuji
keats1964
12-28-2010, 21:54
Okay Fuji,
This is what all we wannabe Gary Winogrand photographers need to shoot as he taught while a professor at University of Texas. The x100 must be able to zone focus EASILY. On a Leica M film camera (and M9), we simply match up the aperture chosen to a zone of focus we desire as noted on the lens barrel. Even the R-D1 and M8 require mental conversions to the appropriate zone because of the focal length conversions due to their sensor size.
We have to be able to visually confirm the zone of acceptable focus quickly, and WITHOUT bringing the camera to eye level.
A couple of ideas:
1) Since this probably isn't possible with markings on an autofocus lens, Visual confirmation of zone-focus achieved at any combination of f-stop and focus distance should be visible on the LCD (not just through the viewfinder). Have an lcd "zone focus" preset mode that ONLY SHOWS the distance scale, focus distance, and adjacent acceptable focus scale (which should change in real-time as the user changes f-stop and/or manual focus point). This screen should be ALL BLACK except for the scales so that having it on isn't like having a flashlight shining out of the back of the camera. The scales should be bright enough to see at waist level on a sunny day. This should also be available from a dedicated button (or programmable function button) with instant on/off.
2) A hyper-focal distance setting where as you change f-stops the software automatically changes the focus distance to the appropriate hyper-focal distance. (This would only be a strong solution at smaller apertures for street shooting). This would still need the same visual confirmation that doesn't require looking through the viewfinder.
Basically, a true visual confirmation of zone-focus at any focus point/f-stop is what is really applicable to the shooting style of Gary Winogrand and countless other manual camera street/reportage shooters.
Count me in if you an achieve the above suggestions. In fact, make a model with a 50mm f1.4 and count me in for that too. ;)
Thanks and Good Luck.
I think what you're trying to say is that X100 should have distance markings on the focus barrel?
Keats1964, I second your suggestions 1 and 2. This would be very valuable for Ignore Your ViewFinder shooting.
As to '50mm' focal length - let's first wait how the '35mm' version turns out.
I think what you're trying to say is that X100 should have distance markings on the focus barrel?
Nope - it would IMHO be sufficient if that info were displayed on the monitor on the camera's rear side.
jsrockit
12-29-2010, 05:03
I suspect they will completely redesign their camera based on your letter and push back the release time until 4th quarter 2011. Thanks. ;)
Honestly, who's to say they haven't already implemented a good way to zone focus?
I'm glad to see that Keats' suggestions don't require a hardware redesign. A firmware update would be all that's needed.
videogamemaker
12-29-2010, 05:11
Seeing as it will most likely display on the back LCD the same info displayed in the EVF (a guess, but highly likely imo), couldn't you just turn brightness on the LCD way down so it isn't so bright, but still shows the zone area? If it's really important, you could tape over the entire LCD with gaffer tape, so that only the zone focus scale shows, and use only the EVF to chimp (sounds like they are making that possible).
Nope - it would IMHO be sufficient if that info were displayed on the monitor on the camera's rear side.
Why not the lens barrel? After all that is where zone focus option is located in almost all of the rangefinder cameras that X100 and by extension Fuji is trying to emulate? Its also where most of us who're used to Rfs look automatically to zone focus.
In fact with the EVF option, there is no need for the back LCD.
I don't mean to sound like a negative nancy, but there is a very easy method you can use to use zone focussing like a manual camera.
1. Set AF to back button (AF on - rear of camera)
2. Use button to focus on something irrelevant that is roughly the distance you want the lens to be at
3. Set aperture
4. Shoot.
I've done this with an E-p1 and it worked perfectly, I never felt the need to have anything more for hyperfocal shooting.
Fuji has already provided a good zone focusing method...focal distance with DoF displayable in both the O/EVF and LCD. Obviously only workable in Manual mode.
I believe the lens is focused-by-wire [two tiny motors are visible in the lens module]. If focusing is set to manual, then rotating the focusing and/or aperture ring will cause the DoF range to change...those rings are encoded to supply the variables in the firmware LUT that recalculate the DoF, also causes f-stop to be displayed...
Fuji knows what they are doing.
Why not the lens barrel?......
The lens barrel is just that...a barrel. Imagine if the lens is set at AF-S or AF-C, then the lens module within will do its thing without necessarily causing the focusing ring to also self-rotate.
I had always imagined that the lens is focus-by-wire. After seeing the lens module recently, I now believe it is so.
See: http://www.finepix-x100.com/story/
^--- it simply doesn't make design sense to use a mechanically-coupled helicoid on an AF lens for a compact camera. Fly-by wire is more accurate, and more importantly involves less moving mass and FAR less friction, thereby improving the precision of the mechanism and the speed of focus, and decreasing the size and weight of all necessary components including the lens armature and battery.
hexiplex
12-29-2010, 09:03
... What is wrong with snap focus and setting the aperture at f/5.6 or f/8? Snap focus works excellently on the GRD III, why not on the X100?
Pickett Wilson
12-29-2010, 09:07
I'm not exactly clear why you would need to zone focus an AF camera, if the AF is any good at all. My Canon DSLR's will snap into focus almost instantly. Why not just use autofocus?
Well, sometimes snap mode is more reliable than AF especially when there are choices of near/far objects and no time to select from AF spots.
Canon DSLR probably has different AF implementation than compact cameras, I'm just guessing.
mto'brien
12-29-2010, 09:32
Even the R-D1 and M8 require mental conversions to the appropriate zone because of the focal length conversions due to their sensor size.
is this true? a cropped sensor changes the distance to subject? i set hyperfocal as i would with a film camera on my m8 all the time and i have never had an issue. please correct me if i'm wrong.
jsrockit
12-29-2010, 09:32
Why not just use autofocus?
That's assuming the AF is more DSLR speed than Leica X1 speed. ;)
I'm not exactly clear why you would need to zone focus an AF camera, if the AF is any good at all. My Canon DSLR's will snap into focus almost instantly. Why not just use autofocus?
AF works if the subject happens to be in the sweet spot. If not, then the MO would be AFL and recompose...while you are at it, AEL as well. AND, Fuji provides such a button at your right thumb...Fuji knows what they are doing.
I'm not exactly clear why you would need to zone focus an AF camera, if the AF is any good at all. My Canon DSLR's will snap into focus almost instantly. Why not just use autofocus?
Well, I very often preset my camera and shoot 'from the hip' without ever looking through the viewfinder. How on earth would the camera AF be able to lock on exactly the right object if I'm not taking the camera to my eyes? That's why I think zone focussing still makes sense - even in the age of autofocus.
The camera that's capable of guessing what I want to shoot hasn't yet been invented (unless I'm shooting faces, in which case e.g. my Nikon D300 can actually lock on any face in its FoV, provided there's enough light. But we don't know if the X100 will have face recognition.).
That's assuming the AF is more DSLR speed than Leica X1 speed. ;)
Fuji's recent update says the X100 shutter lag is 0.01s or 10ms, on par with M cameras which is widely believed to be 8~15ms.
http://www.finepix-x100.com/your-questions-answered/functions-capabilities
I would normally assume that shutter lag is the combined delays caused by AE/AF...and in the case of DSLR, also mirror flop.
However, live-view is available in X100, which means the shutter has to first close before every exposure, and the X100 supports 5F/s; or 5 closings every second...plus AE-C/AF-C delays.
The new data gave me every reason to believe the X100 will be much faster than Leica X1.
jsrockit
12-29-2010, 10:51
I would normally assume that shutter lag is the combined delays caused by AE/AF...and in the case of DSLR, also mirror flop.
The new data gave me every reason to believe the X100 will be much faster than Leica X1.
Shutter lag and AF lag are totally different things IMO. There's negligible shutter lag in the X1, but a ton of AF lag.
By all means, the X100 should be faster than the X1.
Shutter lag and AF lag are totally different things IMO. There's negligible shutter lag in the X1, but a ton of AF lag.
By all means, the X100 should be faster than the X1.
We still don't know much yet. However, 5F/s requires the combined shutter/AF lag be less than 0.2ms...allowing some time for the shutter to reopen.
p.s. please can we also have 90mm and 180mm versions of the soon to be released GF670W as that would replace your old pro cameras which were unexplainably removed from production but which command high prices on the S/H market due to current demand.
Rick Waldroup
12-29-2010, 12:57
... What is wrong with snap focus and setting the aperture at f/5.6 or f/8? Snap focus works excellently on the GRD III, why not on the X100?
I agree. In fact, I always had the "snap mode" on, on my GRDII. It was extremely rare when I ever used the autofocus on the camera. The snap mode just about eliminated all shutter lag and was one of the best features of the GRD's.
keats1964
12-29-2010, 13:07
Seeing as it will most likely display on the back LCD the same info displayed in the EVF (a guess, but highly likely imo), couldn't you just turn brightness on the LCD way down so it isn't so bright, but still shows the zone area? If it's really important, you could tape over the entire LCD with gaffer tape, so that only the zone focus scale shows, and use only the EVF to chimp (sounds like they are making that possible).
Clever solution, but hopefully not necessary. I do prefer to use my RD1 with the lcd turned into the camera!
keats1964
12-29-2010, 13:27
I don't mean to sound like a negative nancy, but there is a very easy method you can use to use zone focussing like a manual camera.
1. Set AF to back button (AF on - rear of camera)
2. Use button to focus on something irrelevant that is roughly the distance you want the lens to be at
3. Set aperture
4. Shoot.
I've done this with an E-p1 and it worked perfectly, I never felt the need to have anything more for hyperfocal shooting.
This does work in many situations, and is a tried and true rangefinder pre-focus technique, as are setting zone focus and hyper-focal distance as appropriate. The difference being that both zone focus and hyper-focal distance setting don't require bringing the camera to the eye when shooting a rangefinder. I just like to bring the camera to my eye at the moment I'm going to shoot the first frame. I may keep it up for successive frames, but rarely.
keats1964
12-29-2010, 13:30
... What is wrong with snap focus and setting the aperture at f/5.6 or f/8? Snap focus works excellently on the GRD III, why not on the X100?
I haven't used any of the Ricohs. What is snap focus?
Rick Waldroup
12-29-2010, 13:35
On the GRDII, you set the camera in snap focus, it pre-sets the focus of the camera at 4ft. to infinity, thereby effectively cutting off the autofocus. It is a great tool for street shooting because it eliminates shutter lag due to the slow autofocus on these compact cameras. It was one of the main reasons I purchased the camera.
Now, on the newer GRDIII, I believe you have an option of three different distance scales to use in snap mode, which would really be useful for all types of street shooting or just random snapshot shooting.
I, too, have often wondered why other camera makers, especially with fixed focal length lenses on their cameras, have not employed this snap mode. I would love to see this feature on the new Fuji, as I have plans to buy one as soon as they are available.
keats1964
12-29-2010, 13:42
AF works if the subject happens to be in the sweet spot. If not, then the MO would be AFL and recompose...while you are at it, AEL as well. AND, Fuji provides such a button at your right thumb...Fuji knows what they are doing.
Another valid way of working. Whatever best suits the individual photographer's style. When I've borrowed a friend's Canon 5D, I've always been frustrated with AF, choosing AF point, AF and recomposing, and if I owned it I would change out the focus screen and manually focus most of the time.
keats1964
12-29-2010, 13:53
On the GRDII, you set the camera in snap focus, it pre-sets the focus of the camera at 4ft. to infinity, thereby effectively cutting off the autofocus. It is a great tool for street shooting because it eliminates shutter lag due to the slow autofocus on these compact cameras. It was one of the main reasons I purchased the camera.
Now, on the newer GRDIII, I believe you have an option of three different distance scales to use in snap mode, which would really be useful for all types of street shooting or just random snapshot shooting.
I, too, have often wondered why other camera makers, especially with fixed focal length lenses on their cameras, have not employed this snap mode. I would love to see a feature on the new Fuji, as I have plans to buy one as soon as they are available.
Sounds like a great feature of the Ricohs. Snap focus is the hyper-focal distance at those apertures. Very usable with the small sensor cameras as f5.6 will still provide great DOF. Since the x100 has an aperture ring, it would make sense to tie a "snap focus" or "hyper-focal distance" mode to the aperture as it is changed. But the DOF will not be nearly as broad as with small sensor cameras at moderate to wide apertures. This is where zone focusing (or as appropriate, pre-focusing) would be preferred.
Rick Waldroup
12-29-2010, 13:55
Photomoof, with the Ricoh, I shot from the hip quite a bit. It has a fixed 28mm lens (35mm equivalent), and after a bit of experimenting, you get the hang of how low or high to position the camera, etc. The Ricoh's are so small that I simply held the camera in one hand, about chest high, leveled it as best as I could, and like I said, after a bit of experimenting, you get the feel for how to shoot like this. It can be a wonderful way to shoot candids, especially in crowded conditions.
I have even hip shot with my DSLR's with wide angle lenses, but that is not near as stealthy as a smaller, compact camera.:rolleyes:
Rick Waldroup
12-29-2010, 13:59
Sounds like a great feature of the Ricohs. Snap focus is the hyper-focal distance at those apertures. Very usable with the small sensor cameras as f5.6 will still provide great DOF. Since the x100 has an aperture ring, it would make sense to tie a "snap focus" or "hyper-focal distance" mode to the aperture as it is changed. But the DOF will not be nearly as broad as with small sensor cameras at moderate to wide apertures. This is where zone focusing (or as appropriate, pre-focusing) would be preferred.
Yes, you are right about the sensor size on these small cameras. In the snap mode, when you set the camera at 5.6 or even 4, the depth of field is amazing, especially with the 28mm focal length.
is this true? a cropped sensor changes the distance to subject? i set hyperfocal as i would with a film camera on my m8 all the time and i have never had an issue. please correct me if i'm wrong.
The focal length of the lens doesn't change on a "crop sensor" camera (it's a physical property of the lens), but the DOF does change for any particular aperture setting, the reason being that it's predicated on an enlargement factor; the smaller-sensor camera will have a bigger enlargement factor of the image to the final print size than a larger sensor camera.
Remember: anytime depth of focus is discussed, there's always an assumption about an enlargement factor and acceptable sharpness in the final print; the DOF scales on lenses are based on the manufacturer's assumptions about the image's enlargement factor in the final print. That's why they're just assumptions, and people shouldn't get so hung up on the subject.
Now I'll duck, hoping that the gynormous DOF thread doesn't get restarted. ;)
~Joe
Brian Sweeney
12-29-2010, 15:00
> Now I'll duck, hoping that the gynormous DOF thread doesn't get restarted.
I'm thinking of a forum for DOF discussions that will have a special white on white color scheme, just for that forum. Members will be able to post to it and get as much useful information as they do now.
hexiplex
12-29-2010, 15:14
why would you shoot without looking trough the viewfinder? How do you guess where the camera is pointed? Or if it is level?
With the Ricoh, I got to know the focal length quite quickly, I can shoot from the hip or chest and quite accurately guess what will be in the frame without the display or external viewfinder. The same applies to my M4-P with Summicron 35 attached, it turns into "instinct". Wether the camera is level or not is rarely an issue for me, but like Rick wrote, you get a feel for that too quite quickly.
keats1964
12-29-2010, 15:18
is this true? a cropped sensor changes the distance to subject? i set hyperfocal as i would with a film camera on my m8 all the time and i have never had an issue. please correct me if i'm wrong.
It's true. There is roughly a one-stop difference with an M8 size sensor, and a two-stop difference with an R-D1 compared to full-frame. It may not make a difference for many styles of shooting, but for mine it can and I need to be aware of it.
It's most apparent when I'm compressing space closer to the camera.
I like to think of a picture challenge, and then work the situation and equipment to meet that challenge in a way that produces successful images to me.
Using 40mm and 28mm lenses to illustrate (as these become close in equivalent focal lengths, and are lenses I have and can confirm the markings on the lens barrels):
I'm in a crowd, I need to shoot at f8 to get the shutter speed I want. I want as much DOF as possible starting from about 5ft in front of me (wanting anyone closer then 5ft to be out of focus).
Full-frame: 40mm at f8
What I do is set the f8 zone focus mark that is on the shallow side of the lens barrel to match up with 5ft on the focus ring = zone of acceptable focus from 5ft-10ft per the bookends of f8 marks on the lens barrel.
- Per DOF Calculator (an Apple widget) Focus distance is 6.5ft = zone of acceptable focus from 5ft-9ft
- Barrel markings roughly confirm this zone
M8: 28mm at f8 (37.4mm eqv)
- Per DOF Calculator (an Apple widget) Focus distance of 8ft = zone of acceptable focus from 5ft-18ft
Barrel markings for f8 DO NOT confirm this zone. f5.6 markings are more accurate. One stop difference.
R-D1 (and x100): 28mm at f8 (42.7mm eqv)
- Per DOF Calculator (an Apple widget) Focus distance of 7ft = zone of acceptable focus from 5ft-12ft
Barrel markings for f8 DO NOT confirm this zone. f4 markings are more accurate. Two stop difference.
Well you got us there, but why would you shoot without looking trough the viewfinder? How do you guess where the camera is pointed? Or if it is level? Not that I have not heard of the concept, but it just does not seem like something many people do, except maybe in a crowd.
As hexiplex said.
With a little practice, you can get quite good at guessing the FOV of a camera, especially if you're always working at the same focal length and if you don't hold your camera at arm's length and/or near your hip. If you hold the camera somewhere near your face, guessing FOV will become a fairly easy exercise. Holding the camera level ist the most difficult part, but that's not always mandatory for street photography.
BTW, I'm not speculating with regards to Ignore Your ViewFinder shooting - I shot a large portion of my Oktoberfest series (see my RFF gallery) this way. It's a viable technique.
keats1964
12-29-2010, 15:30
The same applies to my M4-P with Summicron 35 attached, it turns into "instinct".
That exact pairing is what keeps me shooting film!
NickTrop
12-29-2010, 15:32
Okay - here I go, and I'm going to be accused of being Ashton Kutcher again, touting my Nikon. Okay - I'm bracing myself... but here goes.
If this is what you want, get a Nikon D5000 and forget the Fuji. Yeah, it's a DSLR, looks it. It's ugly, zero "coolness" factor. Get past it. Here's why. The 5000 is the only DSLR I know of that has an articulated screen. It also has a wicked fast 35/1.8 prime that's cheap. It's also pretty compact. So, you put it in A mode, fold out the articulated screen, focus in Live View "from the hip" - completely accurately at optimal focus distance (not losing a bit of sharpness because of "generic" focusing) and shoot. Only downside it it's not the greatest contrast autofocus system, but it's not that bad, you can manually assist focus in auto mode, and it's totally usable. No need to use obsolete techniques...
I bought this camera partly due to the functional concerns you mentioned which boil down to the ability to shoot from the hip with a fast 50mm prime, and thought this tool addressed them - but using modern methods/technology, which I think are better. You use the articulated screen to compose using contrast autofocus rather than zone focusing. Nikon has the "fast 50" base covered very well with a great inexpensive 35/1.8 (a 50mm in film equiv. due to crop factor) super fast, completely silent motorized AF lens.
And it works... just fine.
keats1964
12-29-2010, 15:33
That exact pairing is what keeps me shooting film!
Can Fuji make me sell it? I dare them!
keats1964
12-29-2010, 15:36
totally valid. totally different.
R-D1 (and x100): 28mm at f8 (42.7mm eqv)
- Per DOF Calculator (an Apple widget) Focus distance of 7ft = zone of acceptable focus from 5ft-12ft
Barrel markings for f8 DO NOT confirm this zone. f4 markings are more accurate. Two stop difference.
Completely agree, due to painful experience with a new Zeiss 28mm Biogon I took on holiday this summer without testing it first. Note to self, test gear before using while travelling, and especially, check images as you go along rather than waiting until the end of the trip. Ouch.
R!
NickTrop
12-29-2010, 18:04
Nikon P90
Nikon D5000
Olympus E-600
Olympus E-620
Olympus E-30
Olympus E-3 (first DSLR with articulating screen 2007)
Panasonic Lumix G1 (not technically a DSLR but close enough)
Panasonic Lumix GH1 (ditto)
Sony HX1
Sony A550/A500
Sony A300/330/350/380/390
Fujifilm S9500/9600
FujiFilm S100FS
Sony A55 and A33 (feature a fully articulated (not just fold down/out) LCD screen, which hinges along its lower edge, and can be completely reversed to protect the screen when the camera isn't being used.)
Canon 60D and 550D/600D
I am sure there are others I have missed.
Added:
Olympus E5
LOL... I ummm, stand corrected. As we can see, I haven't been following this digital thing too closely. In any event, more choices... I'm sure any of these would be fine and serve the same purpose. Thanks for the correction :)
videogamemaker
12-30-2010, 02:28
Slightly off-topic from the OP, but since we´re talking about shooting from the hip, I figure why not.
Has anyone made an LCD protector that is essentially a small mirror (facing inward to the LCD) with a hinge at the bottom? That way you could tilt it back (it could have small straps or strings that stop it at 45 degrees) and would let you peer down from above like a waist level finder.
Hardly ideal, I know, reversed image, upside down too? and you'd have to fumble with it, but it could turn any camera with a live view lcd into a waist level finder.
Please send me one, I will let you know if it is any good.
jsrockit
12-30-2010, 04:08
Okay - here I go, and I'm going to be accused of being Ashton Kutcher again, touting my Nikon. Okay - I'm bracing myself... but here goes.
If this is what you want, get a Nikon D5000 and forget the Fuji. Yeah, it's a DSLR, looks it. It's ugly, zero "coolness" factor. Get past it. Here's why. The 5000 is the only DSLR I know of that has an articulated screen.
Nick, you have to understand that there are people who just hate DSLRs. I'm happy you love this camera, but I wouldn't be happy with it. I just can't get into DSLRs...just too clunky for me in use. I'd use a Panasonic G2 or a Sony A33 before I'd buy this Nikon. We are on the RFF, so a camera like the Fuji is much closer to our sensibilities than a DSLR.
elmer3.5
12-30-2010, 04:09
Hi, with a 23mm lens you sety it at 3 metres and f5.6 and you´ll get 65 m of DOF!!!!
Perhaps it isn´t necessary to etch the barrel?
On the Panasonic LX3 there´s a DOF scale set on the Manual focus distance scale, very nicce but that lens even at f2 has a huge DOF set to 3 m.
i would really appreciate a film cassette witha sensor to match any M camera, or even better a III type camera!
Bye!
NickTrop
12-30-2010, 05:27
Nick, you have to understand that there are people who just hate DSLRs. I'm happy you love this camera, but I wouldn't be happy with it. I just can't get into DSLRs...just too clunky for me in use. I'd use a Panasonic G2 or a Sony A33 before I'd buy this Nikon. We are on the RFF, so a camera like the Fuji is much closer to our sensibilities than a DSLR.
I like the Fuji too, wouldn't mind owning one, and from a form factor standpoint would probably prefer it to a DSLR. It's certainly sexy looking, and wouldn't mind it as a "guy" fashion accessory. I was/am in the RF camp as well, owned many, still own one, still use it. That said, the more compact APSC-sized DSLRS handle surprisingly well. Dare I say better because they have a larger grip? There's plenty of "SLR-talk" in this forum, nothing wrong with that... The "I've become a Zukioholic" that discusses the Oly OMs being one of the most active threads here for a long time. I would argue that some of the newer compact DSLRs - as much as many might eschew the very idea, fall into the "OM category" of RF-esqueness, and I would argue the D5000 is one of them - I'm sure there are others. It's compact, very quiet, has some wicked prime glass... etc. - from a purely functional stand-point, they're great (dare I say it?) perhaps better tool for RF-style photography? What better way to "shoot from the hip" than with a LCD folded out, the camera dangling from your waist, and a lens that can silently focus on the scene in an instant? Doesn't this way obviously beat the old-school stone age approach of scale focus guesstimating - the old f5.6 and be there rule? It just does. That scale focus technique was used because the technology didn't exist to do this any better way back then. Now it does exist. Why impose outdated techniques on yourself? Sometimes you have to reassess your sensibilities.
What better way to "shoot from the hip" than with a LCD folded out, the camera dangling from your waist, and a lens that can silently focus on the scene in an instant? Doesn't this way obviously beat the old-school stone age approach of scale focus guesstimating - the old f5.6 and be there rule? It just does. That scale focus technique was used because the technology didn't exist to do this any better way back then. Now it does exist. Why impose outdated techniques on yourself? Sometimes you have to reassess your sensibilities.
Υep that would work too. The point of the outdated technique is that it is in fact the quickest way of shooting because you skip the "half press-bzzt-check where focus is-recompose" part. Which, for an experienced shooter, it only takes a second. Is that 1 second important? I dont know, but I'd like to be able to make that decision myself rather than the manufacturer make it for me. DSLRs are ok in that regard, if you're happy with the form factor and style of shooting.
jsrockit
12-30-2010, 06:23
Nick, just because a camera looks good doesn't make it a cool guy fashion accessory... that's nonsense. I just don't like the form factor of DSLRs. I've tried the Nikon D40, the Nikon D700, and the Canon 40d. Rangefinders are limited... perhaps some of us like those limitations. I'm strange though... I prefer using an LCD to looking through the viewfinder of a DSLR. As you can see from the equipment in my sig, I'm not only using rangefinders. I just don't use SLRs. The fuji appeals to me as a cross between my Leica M and the digital LCD cams I like.
videogamemaker
12-30-2010, 06:48
It's certainly sexy looking, and wouldn't mind it as a "guy" fashion accessory.
Not to pick on you, but I've seen a lot of people over emphasize the aesthetics as the "only" or "major" reason a lot of people are interested in it, similar to how Apple designs it's products.
One big problem with this, is that Cameras are how we as photographers interact with subjects (in the case of portraiture or street photography). Many people in today's societies all around the world have a bit of mistrust toward DSLRs and are much more relaxed around P&S's or old film cameras. Something about them just seems less threatening and less exploitive. It certainly doesn't hurt that with P&S's or RFs that your entire face isn't covered like with a DSLR.
I'm a digital guy, never owned a film camera, never owned an RF. I already preordered an X100 anyway, and I love the design because I feel like in many of the times where I haven't felt comfortable with a DSLR when photographing strangers, I have felt fine with a tiny P&S, and they seemed to react better as well. I think the X100 will have a similar affect as it's very non threatening compared to a big DSLR with a large noisy lens attached.
I'll never give up my 5D and 35mm 1.4 for planned portrait shoots, but when I'm out on the town or traveling I can see the x100 giving me "freedom" even if it's just in our heads in how we relate to cameras.
videogamemaker
12-30-2010, 06:50
Here is the letter I would love to send to Fuji:
A few features I would love to know about.
1. Will it have an auto ISO mode? I would like to use it set to aperture priority AND auto-ISO for very automated shooting. If this is already planned, it would be great to be able to set a maximum ISO that auto-ISO can pick from.
2. Will the flash be able to be used as a focus assist but not fire in the actual exposure? Many DSLRs have a feature where the flash will blink rapidly to help focus lock, but will not fire for the exposure itself, so you can shoot in low light with high ISO, but be sure focus is achieved. Many times you can even cover the flash with a piece of exposed film, so that there is no visible light to blind people or make them aware you're taking a photo, but the IR allows the AF to work.
3. When using the OVF, you have stated in recent updates that rangefinder focusing is not possible. I am assuming you mean mechanical rangefinder focusing in that answer? Seeing as AF is possible in OVF mode, will focus confirmation work? When a dslr is manually focused, the AF spots will blink when focus is achieved while manual focusing. This would be a great feature that would aid in manually focusing.
4. Will the X100 have a zoomable histogram? The leica m8/9 and newest Nikon DSLRs will update the histogram to show you only the values of what you have currently zoomed into. This is very useful in instances where you want to check a face or object's exposure levels in a scene that has contrasty surroundings that would otherwise show a "proper" histogram for the entire scene.
5. Will the ISO be able to be set to full stops only? Most DSLRs that offer half or third steps in ISO are false settings that require signal boosting or clamping. Some allow the option to turn off these mid-steps so that ISO jumps only in full stops to real sensor values. Will the X100 feature this?
Thank you so much for this product. I do not think I've been this excited about an upcoming release since I waited as a child for the 3 new Star Wars movies. :-)
hexiplex
12-30-2010, 11:44
...Doesn't this way obviously beat the old-school stone age approach of scale focus guesstimating - the old f5.6 and be there rule? It just does. That scale focus technique was used because the technology didn't exist to do this any better way back then. Now it does exist. Why impose outdated techniques on yourself?
Someone on these forums has a quote by Orson Welles as their signature, it reads as follows: "The absence of limitations is the enemy of art" and I think it answers your question quite sufficiently.
Someone on these forums has a quote by Orson Welles as their signature, it reads as follows: "The absence of limitations is the enemy of art" and I think it answers your question quite sufficiently.
just to complement on this...
Jack White also said "That’s the disease we have to fight in any creative field: ease of use." and I completely agree.
From the two open letters and comments in this thread, it is obvious that some wishes were already done...but not in the traditional form.
I have also posted recently in a different thread that:
Originally Posted by jsrockit http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/themes/graphite/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1493451#post1493451)
Yeah, shame on Fuji for announcing a concept and then asking potential customers for their input... ;)
Actually, Fuji did not really ask anyone for input. I looked at their recent updates carefully, and there was not a single hardware change, down to the logo placement. All "changes" are really just expansions of firmware detailing.
Despite naysayers in abundance, I had long suspected that the hardware was finalized, firmware can evolve much more, even after camera launch.
The 'what do you think?" invitation in their web site was the equivalent of doing a "[Window 7] was my idea!" ad campaign. Brilliant if you asked me.
The rest of the open letter wishes are really firmware detailing that Fuji has yet to publish.
Fuji is likely to listen a little more closely if we can organize our thoughts.
The lens barrel is just that...a barrel. Imagine if the lens is set at AF-S or AF-C, then the lens module within will do its thing without necessarily causing the focusing ring to also self-rotate.
I had always imagined that the lens is focus-by-wire. After seeing the lens module recently, I now believe it is so.
See: http://www.finepix-x100.com/story/
I was asking for distance marking on the focus barrel, which is just a cosmetic addition.
Even if fuji did not bother, I could use a measuring tape and different color sharpies to mark my own distance setting for zone focus on the focus barrel. I think the OP should do the same instead of sending a letter to Fuji.
jsrockit
12-31-2010, 08:13
I was asking for distance marking on the focus barrel, which is just a cosmetic addition.
Would it be relevant with a focus by wire lens?
I was asking for distance marking on the focus barrel, which is just a cosmetic addition.
Even if fuji did not bother, I could use a measuring tape and different color sharpies to mark my own distance setting for zone focus on the focus barrel. I think the OP should do the same instead of sending a letter to Fuji.
The lens barrel has one fixed red reference mark for the apertures, which can also be used as a reference mark for zone focusing.
The way I would do it is this:
Color-code the aperture numbers. [A tried-and-true method for 3 decades is to fill in the engraved f-numbers with grease pencil then finger rub off the excess. Believe it or not, the fillings rubs off clean with water on a Q-tip.]
Color-code the focusing ring position with corresponding color Sharpies. [The ring has fine gear-like knurls that would protect the colors.] A DoF table will tell you where the sweet spot is.]
Use the focal distance scale in the O/EVF to set the ring position. [At f5.6, the lens will have a DoF from 6~28'; and at f8 from 5~118'...pick the mid-field distances or any personal-biased points would be fine.]Remembering the DoF numbers is not hard...from "5 or 6' near, to 28' and well beyond"; enough for street candids. How about 5.6~23...5 or 6' near to 23' far, for 5.6 aperture in the 23mm lens. [I use the same method even for lenses with focal distance and DoF markings...just set the lens at the pre-determined distance marking...]
Set camera at manual focus and shoot. Simple really.
Let's not get carried away here - the entire discussion about adding DOF marks to the focusing ring is very speculative.
If the camera features focusing by wire (which is highly probable), then there will not be any mechanical coupling between the focusing ring and the lens barrel position. Consequently, any DOF markings on the focusing ring would be completely meaningless.
If there's no such coupling, then focus setting and DOF range can only be displayed on the monitor or in the EVF (or EVF overlay). Consequently, asking for 'conventional' DOF scales on the camera would be synonymous to asking for a hardware design change. This just won't happen.
I was asking for distance marking on the focus barrel, which is just a cosmetic addition.
Even if fuji did not bother, I could use a measuring tape and different color sharpies to mark my own distance setting for zone focus on the focus barrel. I think the OP should do the same instead of sending a letter to Fuji.
I'm pretty sure the OP (rightly) assumed another lens feature - internal focusing. If the lens features internal focusing, then it might not need to exhibit any elongation that would be visible externally. Even worse, in Macro mode, the lens might even show a retrogressive lens barrel movement (if there would be any external barrel movement).
I do believe the X100 lens is focus-by-wire [and internal], which is another way of saying inside the lens barrel is a rotary encoder with an infinity dead-stop at 12 o'clock position.
When AF is selected, the lens module is controlled by the firmware and focused-by-wire internally without causing the outer focusing ring to also auto-rotate.
When Manual Focus is selected, the encoder position is instantly read and lens immediately refocused [by wire] at whatever focal distance the lens focus ring happened to be at. There after focusing [still by wire] is a direct firmware reaction to new ring position. [I have been using high resolution encoders in my work for 2 decades.]
You can almost see the encoder marking in the lens module picture. [Take apart a computer mouse and look at the turbine-like scroll-wheel encoder.]
Harry Lime
12-31-2010, 09:08
With auto-focus coupled with aperture priority, zone focus is rather unnecessary, at least for grab street photography like Gary Winogrand's. Who would use it?
Errrr, no.
Nothing beats zone focus for grabbing shots in a split second. Unless you are shooting static subjects, there simply is no time to focus and reframe. Take a look at some of the clips on Youtube of Winogrand working. AF would have been totally unsuitable for that shooting style.
The lens barrel has one fixed red reference mark for the apertures, which can also be used as a reference mark for zone focusing.
The way I would do it is this:
Color-code the aperture numbers. [A tried-and-true method for 3 decades is to fill in the engraved f-numbers with grease pencil then finger rub off the excess. Believe it or not, the fillings rubs off clean with water on a Q-tip.]
Color-code the focusing ring position with corresponding color Sharpies. [The ring has fine gear-like knurls that would protect the colors.] A DoF table will tell you where the sweet spot is.]
Use the focal distance scale in the O/EVF to set the ring position. [At f5.6, the lens will have a DoF from 6~28'; and at f8 from 5~118'...pick the mid-field distances or any personal-biased points would be fine.]Remembering the DoF numbers is not hard...from "5 or 6' near, to 28' and well beyond"; enough for street candids. [I use the same method even for lenses with focal distance and DoF markings...just set the lens at the pre-determined distance marking...]
Set camera at manual focus and shoot. Simple really.
That is settled then. Now if only fuji place a AF-ON button in the the right thumb position on the body for AF so shutter is set to release priority.
I'm pretty sure the OP (rightly) assumed another lens feature - internal focusing. If the lens features internal focusing, then it might not need to exhibit any elongation that would be visible externally. Even worse, in Macro mode, the lens might even show a retrogressive lens barrel movement (if there would be any external barrel movement).
As long as the focus barrel twists in either clockwise or anti clockwise direction, it will correspond to distance settings.
That is settled then. Now if only fuji place a AF-ON button in the the right thumb position on the body for AF so shutter is set to release priority......
The M, AF-S and AF-C selection switch is located on the left palm position of the camera. The Fuji leather case even has an opening to expose the sliding switch.
The likely MO here is that you would select M and leave it be, zone focus or selective focus at will...M style.
Hyperfocal and zone focus is an easy firmware tweak. Might as well throw it in. Makes sense to me.
Hyperfocal and zone focus is an easy firmware tweak. Might as well throw it in. Makes sense to me.
Agreed. Hyperfocus and zone focus are really just preset focal positions.
In fact, the X100 has user assignable "Fn" [Function] on the top deck and an [apparently multi-position] Convenient Command Lever in the back thumb position [function unknown] and could be easily assigned for such tweaks.
If Fuji has other ideas, then a SDK would be nice.
^--- it simply doesn't make design sense to use a mechanically-coupled helicoid on an AF lens for a compact camera. Fly-by wire is more accurate, and more importantly involves less moving mass and FAR less friction, thereby improving the precision of the mechanism and the speed of focus, and decreasing the size and weight of all necessary components including the lens armature and battery.
Focus-by-wire translates down to the number of encoder counts per complete 360-degree rotation and the thread pitch of the focus drive motor shaft. For example, if the encoder is a 360-count unit, and the thread pitch is 0.5mm, then the internal focus increment will be 0.00138mm per count...1.4u focal distance change per count is very fine, but step-by-step. [I have used encoders as fine as 1200 counts per revolutions...]
In comparison, typical helicoid pitch is very coarse...but supports continuous motion.
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