View Full Version : Bessa IV - 6x9 or 6x12
Relax - I am just starting an innocent poll here
Ok - knowing what Fuji/Voigtlander are capable of and approximately for how much - what would be your choice for Bessa IV ?
- [B]6x9 or 6x12 ? And what lens?
- Of course the camera would have the AE, coupled nice rangefinder and such.The lens would be fixed of course.
- The camera would be FOLDING (should compare to Bessa III 80/3.5 thickness-wise)
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So - make your choice and tell us why. I am not asking about your opinion on feasibility of such camera - just your preference.
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Please not I do not dare to guess possible lens speed as that is beyond my knowledge and I do not want to give you false hopes for wide and fast lenses :)
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I came to this as I started to look for viable compact 6x12 cameras and there are simply none. Polaroid 110 & 900 conversions are hard to call compact ... And event the 6x9 cameras are either large [Fuji GW/GSW] or rather old and only with "normal" lenses
Roger Hicks
10-29-2010, 12:30
Yeah, right. A whole new body. And why folding? Inherently more difficulty in maintaning parallelism, and no need anyway when dealing with a wide-angle lens. Likewise, not much need for a coupled RF with a wide-angle.
I know you didn't want to hear about the feasibility, but then again, there's no point in speculating on pure fantasy. Also, what do you mean by 'viable' (the normal definitions are 'capable of growing to maturity' or 'capable of reproducing itself')? Do you mean 'cheap'? 'Cos if you don't, and if you can do without the RF, options (new and used) include Linhof, Horseman and a couple of Chinese makers.
Cheers,
R.
Roger, the "viable" was not the best word, sorry (I did not mean cheap). I mean simply some reasonably compact camera. All those scale focus professional cameras one can buy today are designed around the idea of using one body and multiple lenses. The cameras are rather bulky, large and heavy. There was a 6x9 RF in the past - the Fujica G690 and it indeed proved that the camera is hard to make light or compact that way. I would rather see something that reminding of the new/old bessas just in 6x12 format ...
chris00nj
10-29-2010, 13:13
A folding 6x12 would be cool and unique. You could easily take medium format panoramic while traveling. I'm not sure of the focal length, but I think a 28-35mm equivalent would be the best. I think it would be around 95-105mm, but not sure.
There are a lot of 6x9 folders in existence, but all have "normal" lenses. Producing a 6x9 with a normal lens, means Voigtlander is competing with a vast used market. The other option is a 6x9 with a 24mm lens equivalent.
6x12 please, and wide; make mine a 65mm or perhaps a 75mm. Why? I like the perspective and the ratio, and the shorter lens helps keep the whole camera more compact. I'm interested in the Dayi 612 (ebay #270646219043) but the design is so clunky. Surely it is possible for someone to come up with a more elegant implementation.
Frank Petronio
10-29-2010, 16:16
When I win the Lottery the Linhof 6x12 is at the top of my list. A Bessa/Fuji/VC 6x12 would be awesome. Like Chris, I like the sound of the Dayi and other Chinese knock-offs but they just look a bit crude.
On eBay I saw a Chinese knock-off of an Alpa. It had the proper high-end Schneider lens and a very similar design but you could see gaps in the wooden grips and other flaws. They still wanted $$$$, just not $$$$$$$$$ Alpa money.
chris00nj
10-29-2010, 18:34
6x12 please, and wide; make mine a 65mm or perhaps a 75mm. Why? I like the perspective and the ratio, and the shorter lens helps keep the whole camera more compact.... .
Good point.
I was able to figure out a few 35mm equivalencies. I can't only think in terms of 35mm.
612 = 35mm equivalent
120mm = 52mm
80mm = 26mm
58mm = 18mm
Frank Petronio
10-29-2010, 19:03
Think in terms of the vertical, an 80mm lens is "normal" on 6cm tall 120 film. This is just twice as wide as a 6x6 negative. So while a 80mm lens on 6x12 maybe get as wide as a 24mm lens on a normal 35mm camera - the height will be nice and normal, like a 50mm lens on a normal 35mm camera. People standing in the frame won't look distorted.
At 6X12, Fuji potentially has that panorama covered. Their excellent offering of the GX 617 could simply be masked down to 6X12. To me, that infers that they would not develop a competing product in their line. Furthermore, they have an excellent and for it's format, not too heavy, solution in 6X9.
That is the GW690 and GSW690. Not nearly as heavy as the original G690, they also cover a frame format and focal length that I think would preclude any offering from Fuji in 6X9.
If you've not held the last model GW690, I doubt that Fuji or any other MFR could come up with a lighter or smaller 6X9. The glass is superb and the shutter is robust.
Yes, it lacks a meter, but is therefore not dependent on batteries. I still use the "Texas Leica" original G690, which may be heavy, but offers me a slightly extended 100mm lens and the 65mm lens for a one body/2 lens solution. That setup is lighter than carrying two of the later 6X9's, the GW and GSW for two bodies with fixed lenses.
Sorry, but I think your fantasy cameras have been well covered by Fuji in the past, with hardy cameras that last a long time, and are quite plentiful used.
PS. It's quite naive of you to ask for preferences without feasability studies and justifications. Here at RFF, we simply do not work that way. You can't stifle the creative minds on this forum.:D
As Frank noted, in 6x12 there's the Linhof; and also the Horseman, Dayi, Gaoersi and Fotoman offerings, at various quality, capability and price levels. And as nice as it is, the GSW690 will not give me the perspective that a 65mm lens on a 6x12 will give.
So in the meantime it's back to making do with a wide lens on the dSLR, and cropping to 2:1. :) And dreaming of doing this with film.
As Frank noted, in 6x12 there's the Linhof; and also the Horseman, Dayi, Gaoersi and Fotoman offerings,
... and Fuji was one of the pioneers and long time market leader in the 6x17 format. It is not entirely unlikely that they might issue another one - indeed I'd consider a 6x17 from them more likely than a 6x12.
Sevo
ruby.monkey
10-31-2010, 01:24
Personally I'd like the equivalent of a GSW690 with a built-in spot/matrix meter and added aperture-priority autoexposure.
But I can survive without it.
6x8
Very pleasing proportions, very few cameras have been made that use this format.
6x8
Very pleasing proportions, very few cameras have been made that use this format.
I didn't notice this previously in this thread, so don't know if this has been mentioned.
Fuji made both the GW680 and GSW680 in 6X8 for the home market (Japan). I think they made them in the II and III versions. You can find them quite readily from Japanese sellers on eBay. Occasionally they come up as selling in the US, as some of them made it across the Pacific by private sale to tourists. I don't think any camera dealers shipped them to the US.
I've seen them often on eBay.
I should have stated this explicitly in the wish list above - there would be of course not reason why a 6x12 camera could not provide 6x9 (or even 6x8) images just like the current Bessas do 6x6/6x7 :)
Yes - there are the meter-less GW/GSW Fuji cameras, but because of the fixed lens are rather bulky. And AE is such a nice thing ...
I voted for 6X9 w/ 80mm, but I really want a 6x10. :)
In my experience, lolly-tong folders end with heartbreak anyways. I'd opt for a Fuji GW690 II and save the extra $1500 for film.
6x8
Very pleasing proportions, very few cameras have been made that use this format.
Are you a fan of 645 then?
Same proportions.... [I've got a real weak spot for the Bronica RF645...]
I'd rather spend the money on a lens or two for my 4x5 Horseman, I already have the 6x9 back for it. A dedicated camera with fixed lens is a little too specialized for my taste. Though if I were to get one, it would have to be *wide*.
wlewisiii
01-05-2011, 15:23
6x6 with a 80/3.5 Tessar ;)
Not that I can afford any of them, mind but since you ask, that's what I'd want if I won the lotto.
William
... 'capable of reproducing itself'...
I'm happy to know I'm viable :eek:
ruby.monkey
03-01-2011, 04:33
Given the Fuji connection, perhaps the equivalent of a product-improved GS645/GS645W pairing?
Why not a compact Plaubel-Makina IIIR style camera? Interchangeable 50, 65, 75, 100, and 180 plus parallax correction?
For 2000+ dollars, this is what the Bessa III should have been in the first place. The Makina II through IIIR's interchangeable lenses don't couple to the rangefinder, so there would be no competition from that vintage system.
How about a Zero Image 612 multiformat? Wouldn't have to worry about a lens and covers 6x6 through to 6x12. It's reasonable small and very light and looks great in teak and brass.
Zero image? Pinholes are lame, unless you do it on 8x10 sheet film and contact print that ****. Even then it's questionable.
6x12 is for old sweating men with old sweating hands who want to drag around big cameras to show off. Lots of options already available, AKA: GRAFLEX.
6x7 is OK if you're into that sort of stubby look. 6x9 shoots just like 35, easy peasy. Nobody has made anything portable in this size since 1960 (fuji 6x9 cameras are huge).
Most old 120 folders except the Makinas are worthless for enlargement: they were meant for contact printing. Hence the destruction of resolution by front cell focusing and lack of film flatness. Finding a 6x9 plate camera with a roll adapter is a solution out, but most lack rangefinders.
6x9 with 80mm is like a super-sized 135-format with a 35mm lens. 35mm is one of my absolute favorites on 135 and having an "equivalent" with humungous resolution from a negative more than 5x larger - I think this would be awesome!
BUT - one thing that IMO would be an absolute necessity for any future Fuji/Bessa folder would be the ability to close the camera with at least 1 filter in place! Since so many folks shoot MF in B&W, which almost invariably means using some kind of contrast filter, having to remove the filter (and find somewhere to put it) before closing the camera (or alternately leaving it open, and putting a lens cap on it...) sort of defeats the purpose of being able to fold the darn thing! YMMV, of course :)
Personally I'd like the equivalent of a GSW690 with a built-in spot/matrix meter and added aperture-priority autoexposure.
Yes, Please. or a GW/GSW690III with the same. And a switch to shoot 6x6. I need squares, sometimes.
f16sunshine
05-13-2011, 15:49
Nice topic Matus.
I would love a Modern 69 folder with a 105mm lens. An "Update" if you will of folders from the past. For me a spot meter would be grand. I have been shooting a Gaeorsi 612 with a 75mm. It is fun and provides very nice negatives. My problem is then what? I don't have a 4x5 enlarger and my Bessler 23Cii does only up to 6x9 and not particularly well. Scanning is OK with V700 but I still need to improve my technique. Shooting such a big negative for me is aimed at printing though.
Scanning is just OK some flare in this sample as well
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5143/5643687539_493a8dc7ea_b.jpg
Pherdinand
05-31-2011, 00:39
anything wider than a 6x9 would cost crazy money, and would be extremely low volume sell, today...
Having just purchased a Fuji GSW690 with the 65m lens, I can attest to the sharpness of the lens and the huge size of the camera. It is heavy - to the point that I thought that I would return it as soon as it arrived from KEH. However, once I put a strap on it and started walking around with it, it really is nicely balanced and really has been fine on my shoulder for an entire day. The downsides for me are the lack of metering and the need to change film really, really frequently. But, the results seem worth it (sorry for the lack of images).
rbelyell
01-26-2012, 12:05
yeah the thing is this kinda already exists in the cheapest-maintaining-quality way in the gaoersi and dayi, both of which can be gotten at 6x12 for under $1000 including vf and cost of lens. they are very compact and seem to produce great images. how can, and why would fuji compete with that?
i myself am thinking of rigging up a nice schneider or kodak 90mm lens to the holga pano i received for xmas...
You are probably right. But all these current 6x12 options have only scale focus (or ground glass) and are large and bulky.
Just thinking loud here - what about buying 2 of the Bessa III, sending them off to SK-Grimmes together with an Wide Field Ektar 80/6.3 or Angulon 90/6.8 .... and couple of grands $ :) It MUST be possible with enough dough ;)
rbelyell
01-26-2012, 12:57
interseting idea matus! kinda like mine of puuting a real 90 on the holga, but a lot more expensive. and those gaeorsi and dayi 6x12's really are not big at all, but they are zone focus...still at 6x12 youre not gonna be doing portraits, right? probably landcsapes, buildings, some street secenes, things easily measured, especially at F8.
He can do them in 6x12 or 6x17.
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~razzle/index.html
Me, I use my Fuji G690 with the 100mm lens, on a tripod and take two closely comparable 6X9 negs/transparencies, on a tripod. Have had great luck having them scanned and stitched at any length up to 17cm.
roboflick
01-31-2012, 07:33
Zero image? Pinholes are lame, unless you do it on 8x10 sheet film and contact print that ****. Even then it's questionable.
6x12 is for old sweating men with old sweating hands who want to drag around big cameras to show off. Lots of options already available, AKA: GRAFLEX.
6x7 is OK if you're into that sort of stubby look. 6x9 shoots just like 35, easy peasy. Nobody has made anything portable in this size since 1960 (fuji 6x9 cameras are huge).
Most old 120 folders except the Makinas are worthless for enlargement: they were meant for contact printing. Hence the destruction of resolution by front cell focusing and lack of film flatness. Finding a 6x9 plate camera with a roll adapter is a solution out, but most lack rangefinders.
my bessa ii is tack sharp between f8-f22, and just fine for taking pictures of people between f3.5 to f 8 before becoming so sharp that you can see every pore on the subjects face.
ive made huge cibachrome enlargements from velvia and ektachrome
lots of factors, though,mine is a well used example, and the sharpest slides were made mid roll from film that had just been pulled through before having a chance to buckle or bow.
I've also found that well used examples are sharper than pristine ones, the ones with sharp lenses tended to get used alot over the past 60 years!
plus it fits in my pocket, i plan on taking it and a 3d camera as my only cameras on a trip to paris in may, both will fit in vest pockets. I plan on shooting ektachrome e 100g in both.
awesome travel camera.
Nik
Carlos Cruz
01-31-2012, 07:46
It seems a 6x9 with 65mm lens might satisfy most of us.
KoNickon
06-08-2012, 06:40
Agree -- there isn't any used folder competition in that combination, I believe.
It seems a 6x9 with 65mm lens might satisfy most of us.
bugmenot
08-09-2012, 01:18
I just measured the size of a single exposure on the recently developed Velvia 100F roll from my Fujica GL690. It measures 56mm x 84mm.
Compared to 35mm format (24mm x 36mm), this 6x9 slide would be 2.3333 or 2.4 times the size.
If a new 6x9 rangefinder camera were to come out, it would either need interchangeable lenses, or has to come with at least two lens combinations: One to satisfy the 35mm equivalent focal length, and the other to satisfy the 50mm equivalent focal length.
In case of 6x9, 50mm equivalent = 120mm, and 35mm equivalent = 85mm (due to 1/2.4x crop factor).
Personally, I'd buy a 6x9 modern rangefinder by Voigtlander or Fuji that comes with any lens 70mm to 90mm in focal length. :)
6x12 and 6x17 are just too ... bizarre to my eyes.
I would love a 6x7 folder with a 105mm or so.
I just measured the size of a single exposure on the recently developed Velvia 100F roll from my Fujica GL690. It measures 56mm x 84mm.
Compared to 35mm format (24mm x 36mm), this 6x9 slide would be 2.3333 or 2.4 times the size.
If a new 6x9 rangefinder camera were to come out, it would either need interchangeable lenses, or has to come with at least two lens combinations: One to satisfy the 35mm equivalent focal length, and the other to satisfy the 50mm equivalent focal length.
In case of 6x9, 50mm equivalent = 120mm, and 35mm equivalent = 85mm (due to 1/2.4x crop factor).
Personally, I'd buy a 6x9 modern rangefinder by Voigtlander or Fuji that comes with any lens 70mm to 90mm in focal length. :)
6x12 and 6x17 are just too ... bizarre to my eyes.
Using an area formula:
24X35 = 864 sq mm
56X88 = 4928 sq mm
Divide the 35mm number into the 6X9 area number gives you 5.7.
The 6X9 has 5.7X the film area that 35mm does. A testament to why a 6X9 image "blows" 35mm out of the park on IQ.
I've done this math over and over on all the 645, 66, 67, 68 and 69 compared to 35mm
I've also done this on 4X5 inch LF compared to 35, and all the MF formats.
Why??... Retired!!
It's been a long time since I have started this wishful thinking thread. And I still think that 6x12 folding camera would be great to have.
All better 6x12 that are out there (Linhof, Horseman) are big, heavy, bulky and cost €2500+ with one lens and have no rangefinder.
It's been a long time since I have started this wishful thinking thread. And I still think that 6x12 folding camera would be great to have.
All better 6x12 that are out there (Linhof, Horseman) are big, heavy, bulky and cost €2500+ with one lens and have no rangefinder.
There are the DAYI cameras for 6x12 for around £600 minus a lens, no range finder, but does have ground glass if scale focusing is not good enough. I expect they could put one together for you with lens for about £1000. They also have a shift ability which may come in handy depending on what you're shooting.
Did I already vote on this?
Oh my, a Bessa IV 6x9 with a 50mm lens? I would basically sell my kidney for one of those. You never know with Voigtlander, eh?
LouisB
citizen99
02-17-2013, 03:28
... Oh my, a Bessa IV 6x9 with a 50mm lens? I would basically sell my kidney for one of those. You never know with Voigtlander, eh?
LouisBThat would be awesome!
citizen99
02-17-2013, 03:32
It seems a 6x9 with 65mm lens might satisfy most of us.At the other end of the cost scale, I have experimented with this (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1860460&posted=1#post1860460), which with a 65mm (non-Super-)Angulon was on the limit before the length-wise mounted fold-down 'door' of the 6x9 would have caused vignetting (and by the way you wouldn't be able to close the door on a Super Angulon class lens anyway) ;).
citizen99
02-17-2013, 03:34
... Most old 120 folders except the Makinas are worthless for enlargement: they were meant for contact printing. Hence the destruction of resolution by front cell focusing and lack of film flatness. Finding a 6x9 plate camera with a roll adapter is a solution out, but most lack rangefinders.If by 'most' you mean what were family snapshot market cameras. Some other old ones can still be pretty good, I've had nice 6"x9" prints from the old Bessa Rangefinder, and the scanned files still look good blown up even more on the PC monitor screen ;).
So, I am starting to wonder ... where is the Bessa IV? ;)
But seriously - It would be so great to have an RF coupled 6x12 with SOME decent lens and AE ...
If by 'most' you mean what were family snapshot market cameras. Some other old ones can still be pretty good, I've had nice 6"x9" prints from the old Bessa Rangefinder, and the scanned files still look good blown up even more on the PC monitor screen ;).
Completely agree, I came across this thread here:
http://forum.mflenses.com/bessa-ii-color-skopar-6x9-fuji-provia-100-epson-v500-t41488.html
Using a "cheap" scanner, I think the Bessa II shows buckets of resolution.
citizen99
02-17-2013, 05:36
If by 'most' you mean what were family snapshot market cameras. Some other old ones can still be pretty good, I've had nice 6"x9" prints from the old Bessa Rangefinder, and the scanned files still look good blown up even more on the PC monitor screen ;).Attila's pictures of Budapest are awesome. For a different sort of scene, this page (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1980664&posted=1#post1980664) starts in the middle of a set from my Bessa Rangefinder, which is the 'ancestor' of the Bessa II. This one has the Heliar, it also came with the Skopar and Helomar which are also excellent lenses :).
Texsport
02-17-2013, 05:52
As Frank noted, in 6x12 there's the Linhof; and also the Horseman, Dayi, Gaoersi and Fotoman offerings, at various quality, capability and price levels. And as nice as it is, the GSW690 will not give me the perspective that a 65mm lens on a 6x12 will give.
So in the meantime it's back to making do with a wide lens on the dSLR, and cropping to 2:1. :) And dreaming of doing this with film.
But a 50mm of a Fuji 6X9 or a 47mm on a Horseman 6X12 are available, and both give wider and taller views.
Texsport
alienmeatsack
02-17-2013, 06:02
This thread is interesting since it pretty much is filled with people wishing for something that is similar to what Lomography created with their Belair X 6-12 recently. I just suspect that the quality folks here are looking for is aimed a bit higher then the Belair can produce.
But, it pretty much does what this thread discuses... a folding 6x9 and 6x12 camera with 58mm and 90mm lenses with optional (overpriced) glass lenses for better image quality, built in metering and aperture priority shooting.
Since I have one of the Belairs already, this "Bessa IV" would have to be really spectacular for me to take interest at an affordable price point.
But I'd certainly be interested... especially if it would be capable of rendering quality via the lens out to 12" wide without the blur/focus falloff the Belair's plastic lenses has.
I'd say for my vote, I'd say I'd like to see it do both, but 6x12 would be my preference. And I'd like to see a lens that "works" well for realistic wide shots. It feels to me like the 90mm on the Belair is the closest to that for that camera but I do like the idea of a wider one that doesn't look stretched or distorted, so maybe the 65mm for this thread's camera would be nice.
I'd also like it to have more control over aperture and shutter speeds then the Belair has. f/8 and f/11 just are not enough, and 1/500th is not fast enough in bright sunlight even with 50 or 100 film here in oklahoma during bright days.
Mmmmm wide shots... ::drool::
citizen99
02-17-2013, 22:48
At the other end of the cost scale, I have experimented with this (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1860460&posted=1#post1860460), which with a 65mm (non-Super-)Angulon was on the limit before the length-wise mounted fold-down 'door' of the 6x9 would have caused vignetting (and by the way you wouldn't be able to close the door on a Super Angulon class lens anyway) ;).
I mentioned this because it brings out some of the design constraints on a 'Bessa format heritage' wide angle folder. For an ultra-wide 6x9 or a 6x12, a single folding door would not be practicable; it might be worth looking at a double 'barn door' layout like the Voigtlander Vitessa (http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Vitessa). But there would still be this issue to consider - how compact can one make a 'modern-grade' wide angle lens ?
So as pointed out just above,
This thread is interesting since it pretty much is filled with people wishing for something that is similar to what Lomography created with their Belair X 6-12 recently. I just suspect that the quality folks here are looking for is aimed a bit higher then the Belair can produce.
...
we would be likely to be looking at a 'professional grade' strut camera But then, setting aside for a moment the question of brand name ownership, it would make more sense to call it a Makina :eek:.
Any chance of a 4x5, with range finder and a wideish lens (127mm), with range finder and meter. Could always slap on a 6x12, 6x9 back. People are buying old polaroid conversions which are quite large. Would not be a big seller though, or would people be tempted?
Any chance of a 4x5, with range finder and a wideish lens (127mm), with range finder and meter. Could always slap on a 6x12, 6x9 back. People are buying old polaroid conversions which are quite large. Would not be a big seller though, or would people be tempted?
U can already do that w/ a rf 4x5 like linhof, crown or speed graphic, etc. using a 6z12 multi format roll film back. But just like the Polaroid versions a big weight penalty compared to the Bessa. Then there is also the Brooke's veriwide or the linhof version.
Gary
Not quite. No meter, no viewfinder, fairly heavy, lots of movements, changable lens. Thinking more like a big version of the bessa 3. We can dream.
Not quite. No meter, no viewfinder, fairly heavy, lots of movements, changable lens. Thinking more like a big version of the bessa 3. We can dream.
Linhof and graphic had viewfinder and interchangeable lenses, plus viewfinder masks for the lenses they supported. The Linhof had dedicated rf cams ground specifically for the lenses as well as opposed to the graphic which need to be re-adjusted for lens used.
Meter or shutter automation in that type of camera was never in the cards given the market segment it was designed for.
A beefed up Bessa in that form factor would be very heavy as well. So a dedicated big format (4x5) w/ roll film back option, fixed focal length, shutter automation camera is what u are dreaming of. Not as heavy as what already exist biggest diff is shutter automation or a built in meter then..
I could be wrong, but maybe a small market for it. I think watching how the travel wide 4x5 does maybe an indication of potential of such a camera.
Gary
[QUOTE][So a dedicated big format (4x5) w/ roll film back option, fixed focal length, shutter automation camera is what u are dreaming of. Not as heavy as what already exist biggest diff is shutter automation or a built in meter then..
I could be wrong, but maybe a small market for it. I think watching how the travel wide 4x5 does maybe an indication of potential of such a camera.
/QUOTE] That's it! It would still weigh 1.5 -2kg, but would be more compact. Imagine the Bessa 3 up sized with a 4x5 back. Could have a bit of shift, but to keep it good quality and compact adding slight tilt/swing etc. would defeat the object of a light(ish) fold-able 4x5. I normally only take 3-4 dark slides out with me at anyone time, not sure about othe people.
Ron (Netherlands)
04-19-2013, 11:36
6 x 9 wide i.e. 50mm
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