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Leigh Youdale
09-20-2010, 18:32
.assuming your time has no value, or you enjoy the tasks.

But I do! It's a hobby and I'm not interested in a race to find the cheapest film/developer/print/image combination. I enjoy the process and I'm retired.
Digital is convenient at times - which is why I have a GF1 at the back of the shelf - but that's about the only benefit of digital for me. If I was a professional wedding photographer, for example, then the name of the game changes completely and I'd be using a full frame DSLR.

tlitody
09-20-2010, 18:41
I gotta say that Fuji are using their model name of X100 to poke fun at Leica by just adding a couple of zeros to the X1.

And given that the Fuji top of the range IS PRO dslr is only £800 in the UK and their top of the range compact is less than £400, then I'd guess this new camera will be less than £500 which should make Leica sick as a parrot.

I don't beleive fuji are aiming this camera at the pro market. It is aimed squarely at the mass market by having video in it. The price will tell all. If its £500 or less then its definitely aimed at mass market and they are using the aimed at pro to make people beleive they are getting a pro model for a bargain which may well be the case if the IQ is very high.

But until people have seen how good or bad the viewfinder is, what the low light performance is, how fast it focuses etc etc we really won't know.

Leigh Youdale
09-20-2010, 18:42
So Fuji are going to be getting your money one way or the other ... they've won! :D

Yes, in a manner of speaking, but then I'd be thinking I'd also won which would be a good outcome all round! I can put my BIII ambitions on hold, keep my Rolleiflex with its 2.8/80 Planar lens and have an MF 6x6 or 6x7 with equivalent to a 28mm lens as well. That's starting to sound attractive.

The only thing that would be better is if the GF670W came out with a lens panel that could be removed and with other lens/shutter combinations on offer, already mounted on a panel that goes straight on the front of the camera. If the lenses and leaf shutters were integrated units and there was a plug in electrical contact for the meter and shutter release on each lens panel, plus a rangefinder cam mechanism it would a very versatile MF camera. The lens/shutter units would not be cheap but it is aimed more at the professional level and other MF cameras have used this design feature before - Mamiya for one.

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 18:57
I gotta say that Fuji are using their model name of X100 to poke fun at Leica by just adding a couple of zeros to the X1.

And given that the Fuji top of the range IS PRO dslr is only £800 in the UK and their top of the range compact is less than £400, then I'd guess this new camera will be less than £500 which should make Leica sick as a parrot.

I don't beleive fuji are aiming this camera at the pro market. It is aimed squarely at the mass market by having video in it. The price will tell all. If its £500 or less then its definitely aimed at mass market and they are using the aimed at pro to make people beleive they are getting a pro model for a bargain which may well be the case if the IQ is very high.

But until people have seen how good or bad the viewfinder is, what the low light performance is, how fast it focuses etc etc we really won't know.

I agree... More than $1000 for that camera is an absurd price... It's a compact fix lens APS-C hobbyist camera... For sure it can make great photos, but certainly has lots of limits an M9 or an R-D1 or a DSLR don't have...

It will sell well because common people won't need to focus and they'll move the aperture to f/2 and with a background blur they'll feel like photographers easily... :) That's what sells cameras these days because that's what the first millions and millions of compact digitals everybody had couldn't do... And it's cool for them, but it should not cost $1800...

Cheers,

Juan

Archlich
09-20-2010, 19:03
People asking for a digital Hexar (which it is, probably) are satisfied. And then came some who are trying to figure a M10 out of this, and they complain for the lack of interchangeable lens, rangefinder patch, DoF scale, etc. ...

Aren't we just asking too much of it?

Al Patterson
09-20-2010, 19:07
Not so long as I'm around.... :angel:

More likely not as long as film is around.

cny3123
09-20-2010, 19:08
This thread is insane, constantly being updated every time I check back in 5 minutes or so! Other forums are definitely showing interest, but not to this degree!
And to add on.. Definitely am interested in this, price dependent! I have wished for a digital replacement for my 35SP many a time! Have not been completely won over by the NEX, or Ķ4/3 offerings..

tlitody
09-20-2010, 19:10
I don't see why anyone should expect this camera to be cheap based on what their Pro DSLR or any other camera they've made costs. This is new technollogy ... which the DSLR isn't!

now don't get carried away. The sensor is an incremental update. the lens is probably just another good fuji lens like a lot they have made. Its not full format sensor. The only thing really new is the viewfinder and thats hardly anything stunning, especially if you don't want a digital viewfinder. So I see no reason why it should cost a lot. They can't possibly make a point and shoot their flagship camera. The general public won't see it that way. Only some rangefinder users might see a P&S as the ultimate camera.
You sound disappointed that £500 camera might be so good. I rekon you should wait to find out if the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It might be a dog.

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 19:20
People asking for a digital Hexar (which it is, probably) are satisfied. And then came some who are trying to figure a M10 out of this, and they complain for the lack of interchangeable lens, rangefinder patch, DoF scale, etc. ...

Aren't we just asking too much of it?

It depends on the price...

Cheers,

Juan

tlitody
09-20-2010, 19:26
It depends on the price...

Cheers,

Juan

Well if they are pointing it at the serious hobbyist to maybe pro, then that likely indicates that pricing will be significantly more than their current point and shoot cameras. Thats why I rekon £500. Thats 25% more than current top of the P&S range.

Filson Back
09-20-2010, 19:34
I want to see sample shots. Heck--I just want a ZI.

aizan
09-20-2010, 19:35
i also expect the price to be on the high side. fuji's niche is cameras for photography enthusiasts and pros who either have money to spare to get something unique or want certain eccentric things bad enough to save up for it.

some people will think it's ridiculous, but i've pretty much decided that the design is so ugly, i'm not going to buy it. it's a non-starter. i like old stuff, but i don't like new stuff that looks like a lousy copy of old stuff. if it's a great "copy," well, that's not really a copy at all, but a new design inspired by the past. the product designers at fuji took a risk, but the design is a failure, imo. gotta give them that, at least.

also, it's probably just my disgust at the design, but i doubt that the contrast detect autofocus or manual focus aids will cut it for me. a DOF scale in the viewfinder is not the same as a DOF scale on the lens, and a plain focusing ring is not the same as one with a focusing tab. i can only hope ricoh gets their act together and puts passive af in a similarly viewfindered camera.

anyhow, just venting. maybe i'll change my mind later.

Frankie
09-20-2010, 19:38
It depends on the price...

Cheers,

Juan

I don't understand this price thing. Many RFF members wouldn't mind selling their souls for a piece of Solms/Wetzlar myth but balk at pricing of others. A "user" condition Leica M with a similar condition Leica 35mm lens will cost more that the X100 brand new.

I know, I know...true Leicaphiles love film, yet they want M8/9/10/11...

popeye
09-20-2010, 19:43
This thread is insane, constantly being updated every time I check back in 5 minutes or so! Other forums are definitely showing interest, but not to this degree!


What's the banner above read? :p

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 19:45
i also expect the price to be on the high side. fuji's niche is cameras for photography enthusiasts and pros who either have money to spare to get something unique or want certain eccentric things bad enough to save up for it.

some people will think it's ridiculous, but i've pretty much decided that the design is so ugly, i'm not going to buy it. it's a non-starter. i like old stuff, but i don't like new stuff that looks like a lousy copy of old stuff. if it's a great "copy," well, that's not really a copy at all, but a new design inspired by the past. the product designers at fuji took a risk, but the design is a failure, imo. gotta give them that, at least.

also, it's probably just my disgust at the design, but i doubt that the contrast detect autofocus or manual focus aids will cut it for me. a DOF scale in the viewfinder is not the same as a DOF scale on the lens, and a plain focusing ring is not the same as one with a focusing tab. i can only hope ricoh gets their act together and puts passive af in a similarly viewfindered camera.

anyhow, just venting. maybe i'll change my mind later.

I feel the same: those imitations and retro looks are offensive to me... I'd prefer a modern and totally new design... And the lack of real manual focus makes it (to me) the same crap as always: give me money you fool weak photographer and I won't even allow you to enjoy real control over my expensive, inferior and easy to damage plastic thing...

If it's metal and gives total control, it's another world to me, and I like it even if it's digital, like an M9 or an R-D1.

Cheers,

Juan

semilog
09-20-2010, 19:46
They can't possibly make a point and shoot their flagship camera.

That's what "serious" photographers said about the Barnack. :rolleyes:

semilog
09-20-2010, 19:52
also, it's probably just my disgust at the design, but i doubt that the contrast detect autofocus or manual focus aids will cut it for me. a DOF scale in the viewfinder is not the same as a DOF scale on the lens

It will be on the back LCD and in the VF. That is far better than a scale on the lens. If we get lucky, we'll get scale focusing in both locations with dynamic DOF. That would far outclass on-the-barrel DOF scales, especially in dodgy light.

and a plain focusing ring is not the same as one with a focusing tab.

With all due respect, that is the single dumbest thing that I've read about this camera, in over 500 posts.

Kin Lau
09-20-2010, 19:55
It is confirmed that it has the same two years old sensor as the entry-level cameras Pentax K-x, Ricoh GXR and Nikon D90.

I'd like to see the reference for this.

wollivp
09-20-2010, 19:56
I know, I know...true Leicaphiles love film, yet they want M8/9/10/11...

hahaha... LOL
there's a reason why it's called Leicaphiles instead of Kodakphiles/Fujiphiles.


I'm definitely will buy any digital rangefinder that have OVF... if i can afford it (of course) :D

Frankie
09-20-2010, 19:56
See: http://www.finepix-x100.com/x100

The dial at your right thumb is a "Convenient command lever". That leaves the lens knurled focusing ring the only way to manually focus the lens.

I hope that is so.

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 19:58
That's what "serious" photographers said about the Barnack. :rolleyes:

Serious and not serious photographers could both quickly decide with a Barnack any focusing distance with total precision and security. Nearly a century ago.

Cheers,

Juan

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 20:02
So what if it does? It's not just the sensor, it's the firmware.

So far, it's a non-starter to some folks due to (a) a top plate design that isn't 'crisp'; (b) the retro looks and (c) lack of a focusing tab. Folks, this proves the camera is a real winner! Otherwise the complaints would be much more serious. :)

Or maybe it's because I own eleven cameras that can do more than it, and one that's a much better tool?

Cheers,

Juan

semilog
09-20-2010, 20:03
I'd like to see the reference for this.

You won't see it. It's more internet BS.

That said, the sensor in the K-x (http://falklumo.blogspot.com/2009/12/lumolabs-sensors-of-nikon-d700-d5000.html) was a good year to two years ahead of anything else on the market when it was released, and today it easily runs with the very best of them. It would be more than satisfactory, as the OP would know if he'd actually been paying attention.

semilog
09-20-2010, 20:05
So what if it does? It's not just the sensor, it's the firmware.

...and it's not just the firmware, it's the hardware in the imaging pipeline.

As an example, the Sony interline CCDs are some of the best sensors in scientific imaging, and the basic designs have been competitive and relatively unchanged for a decade. Yet not all cameras using these chips have equivalent performance.

Imagine that.

zumbido
09-20-2010, 20:06
It will be on the back LCD and in the VF. It's far better than a scale on the lens.



With all due respect, that is the single dumbest thing that I've read about this camera, in over 500 posts.

Agreed and agreed. We get it, people.

Yes, contrary opinions can be interesting.

No, a thread shouldn't only be cheerleading and positives.

But if you're going to say something negative, make it something relevant and interesting about the specific subject. Not just another thinly veiled "I don't like digital" or "I don't like cheap plastic camera makers" (which is especially dumb when it comes to Fuji) or "I don't like Japanese cameras" or whatever ax-grind. Yes, we know you demand feature XYZ even though you'll buy any body or lens at any price from Leica without a tab. :rolleyes: Yes, yes, this is just another digital, even though it gives everyone the OVF--lack of which made the EP1 a joke, incapable of taking a photograph in any light brighter than a 60W bulb, yet whose lack was rarely mentioned in the LEICA X1. But this camera is just a junky digital unlike the X1, even though it has that OVF--with a better HUD than any thus produced in any camera, film or digital, no less.

Yes, yes, we get it. Move along, please.

Kin Lau
09-20-2010, 20:08
without a mechnical shutter to "cut-off" light, grabbing snap-in-time data from a sensor will be blurry, due to the fact that the pixels are still gathering light.

It can be done. Video/movie cameras can do 1/4000 exposures. The old Nikon D70 and Canon 1D classic employed an electronic shutter in addition to a physical shutter, that's why both cameras can flash sync at 1/500 or even higher - I've done successful sync's at 1/2000 with my old 1D (not HSS, but using a manual flash or studio strobe).

However, I do think that the X100 will have a physical shutter like my GH1.

semilog
09-20-2010, 20:10
Or maybe it's because I own eleven cameras that can do more than it, and one that's a much better tool?

Better depends on your requirements.

Thinking that your requirements define everyone else's is a common internet disease.

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 20:10
Ahh ... but it took eleven of them! :angel:

:p

Maybe I just overrate focusing... :D

Honestly it's another limited crappy digicompact for the masses... :p

You can't even put film inside it! :D

Cheers,

Juan

zumbido
09-20-2010, 20:12
You forgot one thing...film/processing/scanning are recurring downstream costs. In my part of the world, it is ~$1/exp for B/W.

We cannot make film, even you process/scan your own, there are still 2/3 the cost to pay...assuming your time has no value, or you enjoy the tasks.

Not to mention that you aren't going to get a scan file of higher quality than today's average consumer DSLR sensor can produce unless you spend about 20x times the cost of said DSLR.

If you prefer the look of that scanned film, more power to ya, but asserting that it's a drop-in for a file from an average contemporary APS-C sensor is just not realistic.

Personally I think it's ridiculous. I use a DSLR for certain things, and for other things I use 35mm and 120... and wet print. I'll scan some negs for posting on the 'net for friends and neighbors but I long ago gave up the idea that scanning negatives without a $30k scanner was meaningful as my go-to workflow. One or the other.

semilog
09-20-2010, 20:13
It can be done.

Yes, but if it were simple to do with good IQ, it would be a universal approach, since robust and precise mechanical assemblies are far more expensive to make than a bit of extra circuitry on a CMOS die. The fact that electronic shutters are not yet found on any mass-produced high-quality still cameras (or, more precisely, that mechanical shutters have not been eliminated) tells us that at present it cannot be done cheaply with good IQ.

The engineeers at Sony, Canon, Samsung, Nikon et al. may be conservative, but they are not stupid.

naruto
09-20-2010, 20:15
An appeal to the Mod: could you take this thread off the main page and never let it appear on top?

The thread is surely going towards the Film Vs Digital debate.

BTW, people still buy the 6MP Epson RD1 and are happy with the sensor. So, how bad can a 2 year old 12 MP technology be? Considering the same sensor might have been on the D90 ?

Pablito
09-20-2010, 20:16
Folks getting all worked up about all this...geezzz...

semilog
09-20-2010, 20:21
...people still buy the 6MP Epson RD1 and are happy with the sensor. So, how bad can a 2 year old 12 MP technology be? Considering the same sensor might have been on the D90 ?

Not bad at all. The current APS-C and 4/3 sensors are astonishingly good for general photography, and those who would claim otherwise are, to a first approximation, fools.

iwaki
09-20-2010, 20:21
Well if they are pointing it at the serious hobbyist to maybe pro, then that likely indicates that pricing will be significantly more than their current point and shoot cameras. Thats why I rekon £500. Thats 25% more than current top of the P&S range.

hahahha this is funny.... outright the best comment of the day.
£500 is like what? almost 70.000 yen? Come on, it's not the Klasse W we're talking about here ;-)

How can anyone compare this to a P&S price-wise? i just can't understand the logics behind this. Even the old Ricoh GR1 costs more than that used.

If at all, people should compare it to Pen or GF1 or Nex, and here the X100 is definitely superior spec-wise in all respects. 70.000 Yen?????

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 20:26
Anyway Juan ... we all know that the only real focusing method is with ground glass and a loupe ... and it only happens on real cameras! :D

Although I love my view camera and it can do things this Fuji wouldn't even dream of :D, I prefer cameras that can be carried inside a pocket and that can be focused... That absurd obsession of focusing what the photographer decides to focus...:p

Cheers,

Juan

Kin Lau
09-20-2010, 20:38
Yes, but if it were simple to do with good IQ, it would be a universal approach, since robust and precise mechanical assemblies are far more expensive to make than a bit of extra circuitry on a CMOS die. The fact that electronic shutters are not yet found on any mass-produced high-quality still cameras tells us that at present it cannot be done cheaply with good IQ.

The engineeers at Sony, Canon, Samsung, Nikon et al. may be conservative, but they are not stupid.

The key is _cheaply_. CMOS global shutters exist and are in use, but not on cameras most of us can afford, the trick it being able to read the entire sensor that quickly, not just "a bit of extra circuitry on a CMOS die".

A rolling shutter is used on all current DSLRs with a movie mode or live view which makes skew very visible. Reading a 1080HD sized image (2mp) is already a challenge, a 14mp size image will be considerably more difficult.

Cameras like the old D70, 1D classic and current M9 use a CCD sensor instead of a CMOS one. All CCD sensors have global shutters, you read the whole sensor at once... just that support chips required to read a full sensor in 1/4000 second aren't cheap. So a physical shutter is still cheaper.

Pickett Wilson
09-20-2010, 20:41
The Nikon D1x used both. The digital shutter to give fast flash sync, and the regular shutter for normal exposures.

zumbido
09-20-2010, 20:44
Although I love my view camera and it can do things this Fuji wouldn't even dream of :D, I prefer cameras that can be carried inside a pocket and that can be focused... That absurd obsession of focusing what the photographer decides to focus...:p


I'm always curious about this sort of statement. I've used, off the top of my head, 9 different fixed-lens AF consumer digicams since 2004 (bought a Canon Powershot SD200 the afternoon of the US elections that year).

All of them (Canon SD200, SD800, SD1100, SD1200, SD780, SD3500, SX110, Lumix LX1, and an Olympus from about 2006 whose model # I forget) have focused on whatever I desire far more quickly than I ever have with a manual focus lens on RF, SLR, or TLR. The exception is in light so low that it is also past the point where I can effectively focus with an RF or SLR.

gilpen123
09-20-2010, 20:45
Price please.

semilog
09-20-2010, 20:46
All CCD sensors have global shutters, you read the whole sensor at once...

Not true (http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/digitalimaging/concepts/concepts.html).

The accumulated charges on a CCD sensor are still (in the vast majority of cases) transferred to the A/D circuitry and read one pixel at a time (http://www.microscopyu.com/articles/digitalimaging/ccdintro.html). This can be done slowly or quickly, but it's still one pixel at a time. The exceptions are generally exotic, are used for specialised scientific applications, and generally have poor SNR and lower (spatial) resolution.

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 20:47
Better depends on your requirements.

Thinking that your requirements define everyone else's is a common internet disease.

What for, a camera without real manual focusing, would be a better tool? As I said, a better tool for the masses, and as I said it will sell well for common people preferring autofocus and wanting background blur... And this is not about me: 99% photographers prefer real focusing...

To me, a better tool, as I said, is a more complete, powerful and efficient one...

This thing isn't a great tool. It's a limited toy. Designed for people who have not gotten great results previously: that's the niche it's aimed at...

Cheers,

Juan

sper
09-20-2010, 20:50
Ive never seen a reaction like this on RFF. Fuji got ot right! Even the M9 was less talked about!

zumbido
09-20-2010, 20:55
And this is not about me: 99% photographers prefer real focusing...


Of course they do, because you're defining "photographers" right out of the gate as "certainly not anyone who uses autofocus!" :)

semilog
09-20-2010, 20:56
...real focusing...


No doubt that there are serious questions here, but you are acting as though they are already answered.

How much do you actually know about how the focusing in this camera, works, Juan?

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 20:56
I'm always curious about this sort of statement. I've used, off the top of my head, 9 different fixed-lens AF consumer digicams since 2004 (bought a Canon Powershot SD200 the afternoon of the US elections that year).

All of them (Canon SD200, SD800, SD1100, SD1200, SD780, SD3500, SX110, Lumix LX1, and an Olympus from about 2006 whose model # I forget) have focused on whatever I desire far more quickly than I ever have with a manual focus lens on RF, SLR, or TLR. The exception is in light so low that it is also past the point where I can effectively focus with an RF or SLR.

As you're curious, I'll explain: I started using autofocus 25 years ago and yet I use it sometimes.

All the time I've had some out of focus shots and also some delay caused by low light and subject movement. Maybe I have good sight, but manual focus is faster and more precise to me. And at least seeing through lens you can know a bit more what's happening with your autofocus...

Cheers,

Juan

sol33
09-20-2010, 20:57
Looks like a really interesting camera. After thinking really hard I do have a critique though. There should not be two separate knobs for shutter speed and for shutter speed adjust. This is much nicer solved by a single knob e.g. by the Minolta CLE and the new Zeiss Ikon. The second knob should instead control ISO. What do you think?

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 20:59
Of course they do, because you're defining "photographers" right out of the gate as "certainly not anyone who uses autofocus!" :)

Not true... I use autofocus too.

But I prefer manual focus... And in general all photographers... That's why all pro cameras are manual focus cameras, even those with autofocus...

Cheers,

Juan

semilog
09-20-2010, 21:00
The second knob should instead control ISO. What do you think?

I think it's a quibble, and that I could get used to either system very quickly.

semilog
09-20-2010, 21:02
What is 'real focusing?'

[MR. T MODE]It's the kind done by serious photographers, fool![/MR. T MODE]
:p

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 21:02
You're joking, right?

No, I'm serious. If I buy it and use it, there'll also be thousands of totally different to me shooters buying it and using it: young people who never shot before. RFF members are not this camera's niche. It's another kind of people: the common young people with compact digicams who dream they'll make great photographs because of this camera if they buy it and use it at f/2.

Cheers,

Juan

NickTrop
09-20-2010, 21:03
I don't get why some would be "disgusted" the looks of this camera. If you take away the mirror and add a dial for shutter speed on the top plate, you'll wind up with a streamlined camera that looks like a rangefinder. So, this camera did that and it looks like an old rangefinder. Take a garden variety SLR, remove the hump. Viola - rangefinder. Same with this. I don't think this camera is going for a "retro look" as much as some are saying. It has a classic, streamlined, proven design. Nobody kvetches because DSLRs look like old film SLRs or that they're trying to hard to be "retro".

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 21:06
What is 'real focusing?'

That's when the photographer decides the focus and the camera doesn't take any decision related to it.

Cheers,

Juan

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 21:09
No doubt that there are serious questions here, but you are acting as though they are already answered.

How much do you actually know about how the focusing in this camera, works, Juan?

Even if there's any electronic aid or device, there's no visual system for fast manual focusing... Is there?

Cheers,

Juan

zumbido
09-20-2010, 21:10
As you're curious, I'll explain: I started using autofocus 25 years ago and yet I use it sometimes.

All the time I've had some out of focus shots and also some delay caused by low light and subject movement. Maybe I have good sight, but manual focus is faster and more precise to me. And at least seeing through lens you can know a bit more what's happening with your autofocus...


You definitely have better sight than anyone I know, including my pro and semi-pro photog friends who all use AF for at least 98 shots out of 100. (As differentiated from my artist friends, who don't make any money from photography but have gallery shows and also use AF for 98 shots out of 100, unless they're using 120 or LF).

That's all I can say.

semilog
09-20-2010, 21:14
Even if there's any electronic aid or device, there's no visual system for fast manual focusing... Is there?

We don't know yet. What we do know is that there is more potential for such confirmation with the optical system implemented here than in any previous mirorless digital camera.

I find it astonishing that you would so thoroughly condemn a camera based on a lack of information about its capabilities. I have many questions about this camera. I am withholding judgement until they are answered, and trying to get accurate answers.

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 21:17
You definitely have better sight than anyone I know, including my pro and semi-pro photog friends who all use AF for at least 98 shots out of 100. (As differentiated from my artist friends, who don't make any money from photography but have gallery shows and also use AF for 98 shots out of 100, unless they're using 120 or LF).

That's all I can say.

I don't photograph moving subjects... Not even professionally. I do street shooting for myself, and fashion, architecture and product for money, and in all fields I prefer manual focus. That's all I can say. Other pros I've worked with it in several studios use manual focus too...

Cheers,

Juan

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 21:19
We don't know yet. What we do know is that there is more potential for such confirmation with the optical system implemented here than in any previous mirorless digital camera.

I find it astonishing that you would so thoroughly condemn a camera based on a lack of information about its capabilities. I have many questions about this camera. I am withholding judgement until they are answered, and trying to get accurate answers.

I haven't condemned it...:D I just pointed it seemed to me inferior to the M9 or R-D1, but I respect anyone considering it superior...

Cheers,

Juan

aizan
09-20-2010, 21:23
Nobody kvetches because DSLRs look like old film SLRs or that they're trying to hard to be "retro".

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EaKv2MnCYK8/RmAQQk-_CNI/AAAAAAAAAKc/267XQVgO798/s400/StudyModel.jpg

it doesn't quite work, does it?

semilog
09-20-2010, 21:24
My D700... give it a scene that it doesn't like and it will hunt quite badly!

You need a D700 to do that? I can do it with an FE2 or an M6. :p

gilpen123
09-20-2010, 21:27
We are way OT now.

zumbido
09-20-2010, 21:30
I don't photograph moving subjects... Not even professionally. I do street shooting for myself, and fashion, architecture and product for money, and in all fields I prefer manual focus, even on digital sessions. That's all I can say. Other pros I've worked with it in several studios use manual focus too...


I would be surprised if you used AF routinely for architectural photography. But that sort of work puts you on the very slim side of the pro world, no?

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 21:30
Wasn't the topic how good that digital compact can be?

Cheers,

Juan

popeye
09-20-2010, 21:32
I say this whole thread is viral marketing and this Juan cat secretly works for Fuji...

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 21:37
I would be surprised if you used AF routinely for architectural photography. But that sort of work puts you on the very slim side of the pro world, no?

No. I specialized -after my career on photography- one year on each, on the three main fields in commercial photography: product, fashion and architecture/interiors.

That background and some years of experience put me in a certain place... For each professional photographer buying a compact digicam there are 10,000 hobbyists who will buy it. I'm not blinded by that camera in the slightest way. It would do absolutely nothing for my photography.

Cheers,

Juan

Alpacaman
09-20-2010, 21:37
Why do discussions on cameras always have to turn into a polarised amazing/terrible affair?

And it probably will have a focus confirmation system, at least, in the OVF. And a TTL view through the LCD. And I wouldn't be surprised if they projected a small patch in the center or the OVF with the LCD for focusing. This puts it on par with a modern DSLR as far as focusing is concerned, no? But the crux is, we do not know yet.

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 21:38
I say this whole thread is viral marketing and this Juan cat secretly works for Fuji...

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

BillBingham2
09-20-2010, 21:43
Fuji has had some great stuff over the years. Would love to get a view of the users manual to under stand handing more. Anyone see one yet?

Might replace my GRD III as my camera but it a bit bigger, but it's a bigger sensor.

B2 (;->

gavinlg
09-20-2010, 21:46
What for, a camera without real manual focusing, would be a better tool? As I said, a better tool for the masses, and as I said it will sell well for common people preferring autofocus and wanting background blur... And this is not about me: 99% photographers prefer real focusing...

To me, a better tool, as I said, is a more complete, powerful and efficient one...

This thing isn't a great tool. It's a limited toy. Designed for people who have not gotten great results previously: that's the niche it's aimed at...

Cheers,

Juan

It's a camera designed at people who want a digital hexar AF style camera. A simple, high quality, no nonsense digital with good controls. Even high end DSLR's don't have a control set that's this good. I don't particularly rate little plastic dials on the front and rear of a camera as a good control set. Neither do I rate the single dial and button to switch between aperture and shutter speeds style of control on lower end DSLR's - the same ones a few here are comparing it too. In fact I hate that control setup. It's sh1t. I like an aperture dial, and a shutter speed dial, and an exposure compensation dial.

As far as it being a "toy" - I'd assume that you also classify the hexar AF and contax G1/G2 cameras as toys then? Because they have the same control style, autofocus and size, and in the case of the hexar - the same fixed lens.
So in effect they aren't made for "real" work? Or "real" photography?

I'm sure Annie Leibovitz might disagree with you :rolleyes:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01350/annie_liebovitz_1350796f.jpg

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 21:47
Anyway ... twenty five pages of obsessing about a camera that doesn't actually exist yet is worrying. I think some OT talk would be healthy! :p

Sure! The first 20 pages I didn't post in were a bit boring... They said wow. :p

Now seriously, I always wanted CV to produce a very thin camera, with a big viewfinder and clean framelines: a street joy... When I saw this Fuji I thought they had made that one... It should have had that RF patch, but I understand massive buyers prefer not to focus... It's a business... What a shame! My father would have liked it for sure...

Cheers,

Juan

back alley
09-20-2010, 21:53
why do these threads eventually BECOME ABOUT JUAN?

and what he thinks should be...

you guys just get suckered every time!

gavinlg
09-20-2010, 21:56
Of course Annie and I seldom play with toys.

Cheers,

Juan

True!

http://blog.photoshelter.com/image/xl-thumb-522x475.jpeg

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 21:56
why do these threads eventually BECOME ABOUT JUAN?

and what he thinks should be...

you guys just get suckered every time!

I agree. :D

Seriously, some others think more or less the same...

Cheers,

Juan

back alley
09-20-2010, 21:56
i knew that pic was a 35!!

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 22:01
why do these threads eventually BECOME ABOUT JUAN?

and what he thinks should be...

you guys just get suckered every time!

Of course others can think in a different way... And comment what they think should be... Like the camera is close to an M9, or autofocus is more reliable.

Cheers,

Juan

amateriat
09-20-2010, 22:05
why do these threads eventually BECOME ABOUT JUAN?

and what he thinks should be...

you guys just get suckered every time!
Punk'd by Juan?

Say it ain't so, Joe!


- Barrett

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 22:08
Some pages before the manual focus was commented... But looks like there's no rangefinder manual focus... Maybe they have invented a new great system for fast manual focusing! Soon we'ĺl know...

Cheers,

Juan

zumbido
09-20-2010, 22:09
No. I specialized -after my career on photography- one year on each, on the three main fields in commercial photography: product, fashion and architecture/interiors.

That background and some years of experience put me in a certain place... For each professional photographer buying a compact digicam there are 10,000 hobbyists who will buy it. I'm not blinded by that camera in the slightest way. It would do absolutely nothing for my photography.


Whether it would or wouldn't do anything for your photography is mostly a separate issue from the other issues previously mentioned. So, carry on. :)

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 22:10
Punk'd by Juan?

Say it ain't so, Joe!


- Barrett

It's not that... I'm just a bit insistent, but I guess we all agree more than we want to accept sometimes...

Cheers,

Juan

johannielscom
09-20-2010, 22:11
What's that silly MF switch for? Oh, wrong camera, that's the VF-01. :)

I expect that 'MF' to mean Multi Format, and not Manual Focus. Since the other two options are about formats as well...

Of course I might be wrong. Oh, can I please be wrong?;)

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 22:12
Whether it would or wouldn't do anything for your photography is mostly a separate issue from the other issues previously mentioned. So, carry on. :)

I meant the typical buyer thinks that camera will help for making better photographs.

Cheers,

Juan

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 22:16
I expect that 'MF' to mean Multi Format, and not Manual Focus. Since the other two options are about formats as well...

Of course I might be wrong. Oh, can I please be wrong?;)

It's manual focus, continuous AF and single AF I guess, as on AF Nikons...

Cheers,

Juan

zumbido
09-20-2010, 22:19
I meant the typical buyer thinks that camera will help for making better photographs.

Cheers,

Juan

Or, they think it's one of a couple options that sort-of approximate what they're hoping for in a smallish digital. And since they don't have to worry about professionally shooting architectural interiors, and since this camera will likely be more useful than an X1 for less money, they think it's an interesting idea. ;)

gavinlg
09-20-2010, 22:24
why do these threads eventually BECOME ABOUT JUAN?

and what he thinks should be...

you guys just get suckered every time!

Because it's tiresome to have the same people bleating the same things over and over again, every time something happens in the industry.

If you want a manual focus rangefinder, buy an r-d1, an m8 or an m9. They're out now and they're available new. You can buy what you so badly desire, so why hang around threads and drone on about it over and over again?

If I want a car with a boxer configuration motor I don't go to toyota meet days and drone on about how they should put a boxer motor in their cars, I go and buy a subaru with a boxer motor and shut up.

cloneroom
09-20-2010, 22:30
DREAMS do come true, hmmmm black would be great as well ..... I wonder

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 22:31
Or, they think it's one of a couple options that sort-of approximate what they're hoping for in a smallish digital. And since they don't have to worry about professionally shooting architectural interiors, and since this camera will likely be more useful than an X1 for less money, they think it's an interesting idea. ;)

I really don't even know what an X1 is, and I guess you agree most buyers will get it hoping better images will come as promotional videos offer... Again: a few of us on RFF and our personal visions don't represent the niche that camera is aimed at... We are more experienced than potential buyers are... If Fuji sells it for $1800, some RFF dreamers could keep dreaming it's close to the M9 they don't own, but world sales would be minimal... I guess it will be closer to $1000... And if Fuji sells it below $1000, they'd be doing it very well...

Cheers,

Juan

gavinlg
09-20-2010, 22:41
No thats Cool Juan, it wasn't directed at you, more the repetition of the whole manual focus and scale on the lens thing. It's pretty much been repeated every page of the thread.

tom.w.bn
09-20-2010, 22:48
:p

Maybe I just overrate focusing... :D

Honestly it's another limited crappy digicompact for the masses... :p

You can't even put film inside it! :D

Cheers,

Juan

Just another thread hijacked by your odd film thoughts. Sorry. :mad:

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 22:51
Just another thread hijacked by your odd film thoughts. Sorry. :mad:

That was just a joke: how can that hijack 30 pages?

Cheers,

Juan

gavinlg
09-20-2010, 22:54
Or better, a 911.

Sir,





I like how you think. :D

tlitody
09-20-2010, 23:00
hahahha this is funny.... outright the best comment of the day.
£500 is like what? almost 70.000 yen? Come on, it's not the Klasse W we're talking about here ;-)

How can anyone compare this to a P&S price-wise? i just can't understand the logics behind this. Even the old Ricoh GR1 costs more than that used.

If at all, people should compare it to Pen or GF1 or Nex, and here the X100 is definitely superior spec-wise in all respects. 70.000 Yen?????

Well if it is a 2 year old sensor design then anyone can compare it quite easily to a P&S. Where is the justifcation for a high price? Just because the marketing hype is targetted at Leica owners?

johannielscom
09-20-2010, 23:00
It's manual focus, continuous AF and single AF I guess, as on AF Nikons...

Cheers,

Juan

Second cup of coffee is kicking in as we speak...

...

...
...
!

Yup. you're right.

:o

coelacanth
09-20-2010, 23:06
It's funny. This camera could be 6 months away from release. We are quite heating up already, one way or another.

I'm excited. I wanna get one when it's released. I'm happy for now, and I'll shoot with the cameras I have in the meantime thank you.

johannielscom
09-20-2010, 23:07
...

If I want a car with a boxer configuration motor I don't go to toyota meet days and drone on about how they should put a boxer motor in their cars, I go and buy a subaru with a boxer motor and shut up.

But you never wanted a boxer motor car and did go to toyota meet days when defending that Olympus EP-1 EVF-less design!

Compared to that toyota-specced Oly, this is that boxer motor car I was asking about. So admit, it can be done! HA!

Juan Valdenebro
09-20-2010, 23:08
No :confused:



Read the release. Fuji aims this camera at pros and serious amateurs.



That's rather elitist. A large number of people on this thread, RFF members, have stated they would buy it (if the price is right), me included.
I find your view condescending.

You have the right to your opinion. Maybe you'd enjoy an R-D1, though...

Cheers,

Juan

Good night!

tlitody
09-20-2010, 23:13
Some pages before the manual focus was commented... But looks like there's no rangefinder manual focus... Maybe they have invented a new great system for fast manual focusing! Soon we'ĺl know...

Cheers,

Juan

When you swith to digital viewfinder you can focus through the VF. So I guess thats why you have digital VF just so you can focus manually. OH and maybe see something cos that eyepiece looks tiny. Do you think it'll be any good for spectacle wearers?

semilog
09-20-2010, 23:16
Well if it is a 2 year old sensor design then anyone can compare it quite easily to a P&S. Where is the justifcation for a high price? Just because the marketing hype is targetted at Leica owners?

As one of my teachers, one may assert anything.

1. What is your source for your claim that the sensor is two years old? It may well be, but I for one think you either made the number up, or stole it (i.e., used it without attribution) from someone else who made it up.

2. Sensor performance is not improving all that fast. In fact, a majority of the current improvements are occurring in the downstream imaging pipelines.

Again, I would suggest that you're basing your opinion on uninformed speculation, not on facts about the camera's performance or capabilities. This camera may be a dog, or it may be a gem. It may be a good value or a terrible one. At the moment, we have mainly hope and limited information.

Adding un-sourced rumors and behaving as though they are facts is not helpful.

tlitody
09-20-2010, 23:18
As one of my teachers, one may assert anything.

1. What is your source for your claim that the sensor is two years old? It may well be, but I for one think you either made the number up, or stole it (i.e., used it without attribution) from someone else who made it up.

2. Sensor performance is not improving all that fast. In fact, a majority of the current improvements are occurring in the downstream imaging pipelines.

Again, I would suggest that you're basing your opinion on uninformed speculation, not on facts about the camera's performance or capabilities.

It may be a dog, or it may be a gem. It may be a great value or a terrible one. At the moment, we have mainly hope and limited information.

I was quoting what I thought someone said in this thread so I wouldn't take it tooooo seriously.

p.s. There was an IF in the logic to cover the probability that it might not be. And the dog was a maybe too.

semilog
09-20-2010, 23:20
I was quoting what I thought someone said in this thread so I wouldn't take it tooooo seriously.

Thanks for clarifying. :)

jrv
09-20-2010, 23:35
This thread is growing faster than I can read it!

It is contrast focus, so it will be "fast" only in comparison to other P&S cameras. It won't be in the same league with an SLR.

The sensor appears to be an ordinary front-illuminated CMOS chip (from Sony, like Nikon is using?). I expect Photokina to be drowning in back-illuminated CMOS announcements, so the x100 may have a problem when Fuji finally ships it next year.

I agree this ends the X1. For me the lack of a integrated viewfinder is a huge drawback, even if the x100 has a less-than-perfect VF - the x100 has one and the X1 does not.

I don't think this market segment makes sense for Leica anyway: they're never going to succeed in a market that quickly becomes a matter of price. Leica ought to have Cosina build them an R-D1 clone (such a camera would cannibalize a few M9 sales - though it's better than letting Fuji/Canikon do it! - and would provide a better "entry" price point for budding-and-future rangefinder photographers).

jrv
09-20-2010, 23:46
2. Sensor performance is not improving all that fast.

I gather you haven't kept up with Sony's back-illuminated CMOS advances in the last couple of years.


In fact, a majority of the current improvements are occurring in the downstream imaging pipelines.
Agreed. Almost all of the recent ISO advances have been a result of better in-camera image-processing to deal with the problems caused by high ISOs.

gilpen123
09-20-2010, 23:47
I guess some people should get over the denial stage. I'm a mixed format guy but has checked out of DSLR already for several years mainly due to the bulk and inconvenience of lugging it around places. I still shoot more with film RFs but I must admit the RD1 has changed my thinking of what to bring when I travel, much more with the 4/3rds in the equation I can get by travelling on business trips with just the EP2 and Panny 20 1.7 and a P&S as a back-up. For professional photogs, this may not work so at the end of the day we (amateurs and hobbyists) get excited when something like this comes out in the market. I love my Hexar AF and this to me is a digital version I would love to have as my daily camera even at a cost most likely to exceed mid level DSLRs.

Paul T.
09-20-2010, 23:51
And the lack of real manual focus makes it (to me) the same crap as always: give me money you fool weak photographer and I won't even allow you to enjoy real control over my expensive, inferior and easy to damage plastic thing...

you need to become friends with a guy called Brad over on photonet. You could play internet ping pong together.

Every time anyone talked about Leicas in the Leica forum, he would interject saying they weren't professionals, merely liked to fondle cameras, and that real photographers used the Hexar AF, like him.

semilog
09-21-2010, 00:27
I gather you haven't kept up with Sony's back-illuminated CMOS advances in the last couple of years.

I have.

Sony's best front-illuminated interline CCDs were already making >60% quantum efficiency (e.g., ICX085) when I began specifying them for research microscopes almost a decade ago. No CCD or CMOS device will ever do much better than 90%. That's a whopping half stop of headroom that a back-thinned device buys you, max. Then the fun-ride is over.

For demanding work we currently use 14-bit back-thinned EMCCD cameras that deliver just about 90%QE, with <<1 e- read noise and negligible dark current. Of course, they're under vacuum and run at -60 C...

Yes, the big gains are in sensor shading, full well capacity and pixel independence, suppression of read noise and -- especially -- adaptive pixel binning and similar strategies in darker regions of the image.

I'm not saying that there is no room for improvement, particularly for tiny pixels that have poor shading factors. But in terms of raw low-light performance, the best current sensors are likely within a couple of stops of what's possible, without doing things like thermoelectric cooling that would result in cameras that no one will want to carry. In fairness, I have not run the numbers for a modern, Bayer-array APS-C sensor, and I might be underestimating what is physically possible. However, my experience with microscope sensors suggests that the current state of the art is not so far away from those limits.

Agreed. Almost all of the recent ISO advances have been a result of better in-camera image-processing to deal with the problems caused by high ISOs.

Yup.

gavinlg
09-21-2010, 00:46
But you never wanted a boxer motor car and did go to toyota meet days when defending that Olympus EP-1 EVF-less design!

Compared to that toyota-specced Oly, this is that boxer motor car I was asking about. So admit, it can be done! HA!

Yeah of course it can be done. My argument with the e-p1 was how could they make an OPTICAL viewfinder that accounts for focal lengths from 8-300mm? Notice with this camera it has an optical viewfinder and a FIXED focal length. I don't think it's comparable personally.

igi
09-21-2010, 01:11
What is real?

What is unreal?

What is hyper-real?

What is fake?


... don't bother me, I'm just meditating the nature of things here

:confused:

myM8yogi
09-21-2010, 01:54
This looks to be a really nice compact.
But that is the question isn't it - was this designed from the outset to be a "nice looking" P&S to attract prestige buyers in a mature market, or was it really designed as a fixed-lens professional-grade compact? The Fuji marketing hype claims the latter, so it is a question of whether or not critial operations have been implemented with speed in mind - i.e. is this compact responsive enough to be genuinely useful? Shutter delay will be absolutely key for many on this forum I beleive.

I have mixed feelings about whether Fuji can really pull this off. I still own a Fujifilm f31fd. Great lens. Great sensor. Amazing high ISO given the sensor size. Bad menu. Lack of manual controls - but these seem to be mostly addressed in the X100. It did have slow AF and therefore delayed shutter lag. Face detection (for auto control of focus and exposure) was actually great. Of course, Fuji also made some really nice dSLRs, so they do have the capability to make more responsive cameras than the f31.

Of course, the X100 is not intended as a stand-alone product, so no range of lenses. Also no DOF scale on the lens, so pre-setting for manual focus not straightforward. I would expect this in the next generation after the X100 exceeds all reasonable sales expectations.

igi
09-21-2010, 01:59
I smiled when I saw the black X1 over at dpreview :)

Paul T.
09-21-2010, 02:15
I smiled when I saw the black X1 over at dpreview :)

I was a little sad.

I heard an external consultancy designed the X1. Do we know who?

Arjay
09-21-2010, 03:08
Some pages before the manual focus was commented... But looks like there's no rangefinder manual focus... Maybe they have invented a new great system for fast manual focusing! Soon we'ĺl know...

Whenever new products are developed, the game's open for new (or maybe not so new but previously disregarded) ideas. I'm admittedly speculating, but we haven't yet seen all potential features that are theoretically possible, and so we should give Fuji the benefit of doubt.

There's a manual focus assist function that hasn't been used in many cameras, but that might potentially be the solution to that missing MF assist feature: I recall my old Nikon Coolpix 995 (one hell of a camera at its time) had an MF assist function that was quite viable - it superimposed over-accentuated contour lines in those picture areas that were in full focus, similar to a digital image with overdone unsharp masking. Actually quite effective.

Sure, contrast AF will never be as fast as phase-detect technology we know from our SLRs, but it's already way faster than anything we can do using a conventional Leica style rangefinder.

OTOH, a contrast AF based MF assist function probably won't be slower than Leica-style double-image focussing.

nksyoon
09-21-2010, 03:22
Endgadget reports US$1000 as likely price and delivery in March 2011, quoting a Fujifilm spokesperson:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/21/fujifilms-finepix-x100-ships-march-2011-for-1-000-we-go-hands/

Ezzie
09-21-2010, 03:48
$1000? They must be kidding. It should sell by the bucketload. It'll be on my X-mas wish list if they indeed are right.

Spyro
09-21-2010, 04:00
AFAIC the significance of the distance scale on the lens instead of the LCD is that it guarantees that focus will stay put when the camera switches off or hybernates or whatever and will be where you left it when the camera switches on. Now I have to trust that Fuji didnt forget this important detail, and for some reason this makes me a little bit nervous. It'd be a shame if they stuffed this up because otherwise the camera looks good enough for a digi.

Re people comparing it with the Hexar AF: among other things there are 2 important features that made this camera a legend, one is the ultra silent shutter and the other the fact that it could AF accurately and immediately in total darkness. I wouldn't even put the Fuji in the same ballpark until I see how it fares in those areas, but with a CDAF camera I wouldnt hold my breath.

PKR
09-21-2010, 04:06
It's funny. This camera could be 6 months away from release. We are quite heating up already, one way or another.

I'm excited. I wanna get one when it's released. I'm happy for now, and I'll shoot with the cameras I have in the meantime thank you.

Sug;

I've bought a lot of cameras over the years. I always (try) wait 6 months after the release date to purchase. This gives the manufacturer time to correct any QC or Firmware errors made during first production. I would think with Fuji and Nikon, these problems would be minor, but I've seen a lot of early production problems with others (Canon for one).

It also gives me time to read hands-on reviews and talk with owners. I owned a number of Fuji GA series cameras. I had trouble with one. The others were fine. I currently own a S5 Pro. No problems.. Nikon built.

Just my 2 cents.. and it looks like it will come in around $1,000. Maybe there will be a black body. p.

Paul T.
09-21-2010, 04:11
Re people comparing it with the Hexar AF: among other things there are 2 important features that made this camera a legend, one is the ultra silent shutter and the other the fact that it could AF accurately and immediately in total darkness. I wouldn't even put the Fuji in the same ballpark until I see how it fares in those areas, but with a CDAF camera I wouldnt hold my breath.

Indeed. Despite claims to the contrary, AF works for huge numbers of professionals and amateurs alike; but it has to be good AF.

I'm moderately encouraged by the Fuji's VF display which has a focus distance focus indicator like the Hexar. Frankly I'd be surprised if the autfocus is as good as that camera, though. But given that this is the nearest we've had so far to a concept many here have lauded, I'd personally be satisfied if the focusing is better than, say, the GF1. That would be just about good enough.

At the moment, I use my GF1 for family photos and the AF for work. It would be great if the Fuji, especially at $1000, would do both. I can see huge numbers of wedding photographers using the X100 (if it lives up to its specs) for reportage shots (the kind of thing our wedding photog did with... my Hexar!).

Cyrus
09-21-2010, 04:11
Does anybody has a clue if this will be re-badged as a Voigtlander digital in Europe?

PKR
09-21-2010, 04:18
Anyway ... twenty five pages of obsessing about a camera that doesn't actually exist yet is worrying. I think some OT talk would be healthy! :p

Keith; I think one of the things that is keeping this thread alive is that many see this "vapor" camera as close to what many have been asking for over the past months. We've seen other camera companies, (nikon p 7000, canon g12) fall short of what many want.

The other really interesting thing is that this camera could be the beginning of a "movement" in a product type if Fuji is successful. If this camera is sold at the rumored $1,000 us, and is as good as it looks to be.. it will be a proof-of-concept for many, including the 4/3 manufactures. The biggest change, and most important feature is the viewing system. Until now, only Leica at $7K offers a really good system in an RF type camera.

At $7K, an out dated (18 months) camera will loose much of its value. At $1K, it's not such a big hit.

Spyro
09-21-2010, 04:27
... I'd personally be satisfied if the focusing is better than, say, the GF1. That would be just about good enough.

True. Here's hoping :)

[email protected]
09-21-2010, 04:30
$1000

http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/21/fujifilms-finepix-x100-ships-march-2011-for-1-000-we-go-hands/

Paul T.
09-21-2010, 04:31
yes. Although it's not gospel as yet.

Endgadget reports US$1000 as likely price and delivery in March 2011, quoting a Fujifilm spokesperson:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/21/fujifilms-finepix-x100-ships-march-2011-for-1-000-we-go-hands/

gavinlg
09-21-2010, 04:33
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/09/finepix-x100-handson.jpg

Why do people keep saying it's a vaporware camera? It exists, a number of them do. It's not just a concept done in autocad...

Spyro
09-21-2010, 04:38
$1000

http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/21/fujifilms-finepix-x100-ships-march-2011-for-1-000-we-go-hands/

I was so used to the idea that I'd pay $2k that now I'm wondering if there will be a black one so I can get two :D

chambrenoire
09-21-2010, 04:39
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/09/finepix-x100-handson.jpg

Why do people keep saying it's a vaporware camera? It exists, a number of them do. It's not just a concept done in autocad...

From engadget: "Sadly, no fully functional units are present here at Photokina, but we're cautiously optimistic that we'll see one at CES."

PKR
09-21-2010, 04:49
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/09/finepix-x100-handson.jpg

Why do people keep saying it's a vaporware camera? It exists, a number of them do. It's not just a concept done in autocad...

The camera we've been looking at, according to the reviews I've read, are non-working prototypes. It's a camera in physical, non picture taking form. None of the cameras work..It's a "camera sculpture" as far as I've read. If I'm wrong, please point me to a review of a working camera. I would love to read the review and see some of the camera's output.

The actual camera that is released, may be different from what you are seeing in the press reports. It's not autocad, but 3D autocad, printed.

Fuji, to their credit, may be taking a final poll of wanted and like-no/like form factor, features, before final design. I for one would like to see a black body model. There is at least one "heavyweight" from Nikon or Fuji who is on this form. I'm sure every post regarding this camera is read at Fuji.

Spyro
09-21-2010, 04:57
I'm sure every post regarding this camera is read at Fuji.

Good thing they missed the posts from people who thought $2k would be reasonable for this camera.

JohnnyT
09-21-2010, 04:58
OOOooo.... A speed dial!!! No way!

What is happening?

I want it sooo badly...

Thank you viruling ad... :)

PKR
09-21-2010, 05:13
Good thing they missed the posts from people who thought $2k would be reasonable for this camera.

I'll bet the price point was set as a design requirement.

I don't think the 2K thing would sway them.. coming from a RF form with M9 owners.

I've had a lot of Fuji cameras. It will likely be a very good camera. And, may be the first in a series.. could be 3 with, different focal length lenses. Look at the G series MF cameras. I don't expect to see a zoom. Even Leica, with the S2, knew for the best quality, a prime designed to fit the sensor was important. Though Leica may design a zoom or maybe use an Angenieux.

Damaso
09-21-2010, 05:21
For a thousand dollars I would have seriously considered buying this instead of a used M8 since I don't primarily shoot digital. As it is I hope this is the start of a new trend in cameras. If this had interchangeable lenses Leica would be in even bigger trouble. As is I think X1 sales will go down hill from here, not that I think Leica sold a ton of them in the first place.

I think this camera will push Leica much like the RD1 did. Nice that we are starting to see more options...

igi
09-21-2010, 05:28
I was a little sad.

I heard an external consultancy designed the X1. Do we know who?

Actually my smile was accompanied with a face-palm;)

PKR
09-21-2010, 05:42
For a thousand dollars I would have seriously considered buying this instead of a used M8 since I don't primarily shoot digital. As it is I hope this is the start of a new trend in cameras. If this had interchangeable lenses Leica would be in even bigger trouble. As is I think X1 sales will go down hill from here, not that I think Leica sold a ton of them in the first place.

I think this camera will push Leica much like the RD1 did. Nice that we are starting to see more options...

If the camera is successful, you may see an interchangeable lens camera in the 2nd or 3rd generation of the camera.

One thing that is saving Fuji money, is having the lens-body, sealed. Interchangeable lens cameras now have sensor cleaning systems and other necessary items to protect the sensor when exposed during a lens change. Also, all the lens electronics are free of needing exposed contacts. I just had an AF problem with my S5 and a nikon lens. It was only necessary to clean the electronic contacts on the camera and lens.

Many users would have sent the camera in for repair. As far as I know, fuji contracts much or their repair. Nikon does the repair on my S5.

MikeL
09-21-2010, 05:50
Ah Photokina, the lab coat or ringing bell for the modern photographic world.

jke
09-21-2010, 06:00
Engadget is reporting that the price will be around $1000. They have a nice video of someone fiddling with the various functions on a prototype, though not all the functions work and the prototype does not have a sensor in it. The speaker does indicate that the lens has a manual focus ring & an aperture ring on the lens.

$1000 seems like a good price for it.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/21/fujifilms-finepix-x100-ships-march-2011-for-1-000-we-go-hands/

BillBingham2
09-21-2010, 06:27
I have.......Then the fun-ride is over.

......I'm not saying that there is no room for improvement

.......In fairness, I have not run the numbers for a modern, Bayer-array APS-C sensor, and I might be underestimating what is physically possible. However, my experience with microscope sensors suggests that the current state of the art is not so far away from those limits.

......

I remember being at the World Wide Apple Developers Conference dinner some 20 years back that a table with some deep hardware geeks. One was a senior Apple HW guy the other my companies lead propeller head who went to Apple to do live motion video. One of the conversations was about the challenge of building mother boards for chips running over the GHz mark. They felt there were some issues turning 90 degree angles in the traces. Someone did it and now we have some very fast machines.

Give it time. The drive to make things better combined with profitability and a bit of greed can make magical thing happen. Just hope it's not too much greed.

B2 (;->

Rick Waldroup
09-21-2010, 06:55
you need to become friends with a guy called Brad over on photonet. You could play internet ping pong together.

Every time anyone talked about Leicas in the Leica forum, he would interject saying they weren't professionals, merely liked to fondle cameras, and that real photographers used the Hexar AF, like him.

Ha, ha....I remember Brad. One of a group that ran off just about all of the decent photographers on that god forsaken site.

Kin Lau
09-21-2010, 06:56
Not true (http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/digitalimaging/concepts/concepts.html).

The accumulated charges on a CCD sensor are still (in the vast majority of cases) transferred to the A/D circuitry and read one pixel at a time (http://www.microscopyu.com/articles/digitalimaging/ccdintro.html). This can be done slowly or quickly, but it's still one pixel at a time. The exceptions are generally exotic, are used for specialised scientific applications, and generally have poor SNR and lower (spatial) resolution.

Try again... in context of Global vs Rolling shutters.

Paul T.
09-21-2010, 06:57
Amateur Photographer is also quoting a €1000 price point. Looks promising, if it's only slightly more than a GF1/20mm outfit.

der.chris.tian
09-21-2010, 07:09
Does anyone knows how the viewfinder works for people who wear glasses?

PKR
09-21-2010, 07:10
I remember being at the World Wide Apple Developers Conference dinner some 20 years back that a table with some deep hardware geeks. One was a senior Apple HW guy the other my companies lead propeller head who went to Apple to do live motion video. One of the conversations was about the challenge of building mother boards for chips running over the GHz mark. They felt there were some issues turning 90 degree angles in the traces. Someone did it and now we have some very fast machines.

Give it time. The drive to make things better combined with profitability and a bit of greed can make magical thing happen. Just hope it's not too much greed.

B2 (;->


You don't want sharp outer edges on those right angle traces if you want speed. Most designers cut the outer triangle off of the outer edge, and fill in the inner angle..

Frank Petronio
09-21-2010, 07:39
Well I stand corrected now that Michael Johnstone and others are reporting $1000 price... I expected it to be twice that honestly. Even with a few first generation flaws and delays it will probably become the best seller camera in years. If they get it 90% right I will purchase one but I will also let some of you guys be the Beta testers, wait for the firmware update, etc. ;-)

Yes whomever that Juan really is, I don't see how something like a Hexar AF or the digital equivalent that this camera appears to be is any less a professional tool that any other camera. Not to pick a fight with some guy who obviously has a lot of time to rant and bicker but I found the handy "ignore" function a useful way to enjoy seeing good pictures that happen to be shot with auto-focused digitals.

Frankly, a few others may confirm this, but for a "pro" to be hanging out in these forums it's more an indication that they aren't too busy or they're procrastinating about doing something distasteful. I know this to be true.

PKR
09-21-2010, 07:52
Well I stand corrected now that Michael Johnstone and others are reporting $1000 price... I expected it to be twice that honestly. Even with a few first generation flaws and delays it will probably become the best seller camera in years. If they get it 90% right I will purchase one but I will also let some of you guys be the Beta testers, wait for the firmware update, etc. ;-)

Yes whomever that Juan really is, I don't see how something like a Hexar AF or the digital equivalent that this camera appears to be is any less a professional tool that any other camera.

Frankly, a few others may confirm this, but for a "pro" to be hanging out in these forums it's more an indication that they aren't too busy. I know this to be true.

Hi Frank;

Correct. I'm on here when I'm not out taking pictures..

Things are a bit slow this year.. maybe things will improve.. maybe.

If the camera is out in the first quarter of next year, I'll get one in Nov. Firmware is a serious issue. Most modern cameras that have errors when first released, are fixed with a firmware pill. Of my 3 digitals, only the Fuji hasn't needed one ..The other 2 have had 1 or 2 up-grades. p.

semilog
09-21-2010, 08:00
Try again... in context of Global vs Rolling shutters.

How the charge accumulation is started and stopped is not the same as how the data are read. And although we were talking about electronic shutters, you referred to how the data are read. I don't believe I'm wrong, either about what you wrote, or about how CCDs work.

JayGannon
09-21-2010, 08:01
Hi Frank;

Correct. I'm on here when I'm not out taking pictures..

Things are a bit slow this year.. maybe things will improve.. maybe.


Yep same thing Europe side of the pond too. Killing time while on the phone searching for any work, even... *shudder* high school graduation photos.

NickTrop
09-21-2010, 08:12
why do these threads eventually BECOME ABOUT JUAN?

and what he thinks should be...

you guys just get suckered every time!

Have you ever read posts by his identical twin brother Jamal? He doesn't have his picture in his avatar but he looks just like him - once you've seen Juan, you've seen Jamal.

PKR
09-21-2010, 08:13
Yep same thing Europe side of the pond too. Killing time while on the phone searching for any work, even... *shudder* high school graduation photos.


It's crazy. I just heard a news report claiming the (our) "recession" was over in mid 2009. You could have fooled me, and a few others.

Things are tight.. hang in there.

p.

JayGannon
09-21-2010, 08:17
You definitely have better sight than anyone I know, including my pro and semi-pro photog friends who all use AF for at least 98 shots out of 100. (As differentiated from my artist friends, who don't make any money from photography but have gallery shows and also use AF for 98 shots out of 100, unless they're using 120 or LF).

That's all I can say.

No offense but mentioning semi-pro and pro friends just doesnt add any credence to your argument.

General breakdown would be:
News photographers - Af, Sport Photographers - Af, most others Hybrid of both. Documentary photographers 50/50.

Semi-pro photographers - who cares in the context of a discussion of a tool for working photographers.

As for the artist bashing, I know 5 or 6 fine art photographers who make sick amounts of money each year from their work. (well into 6 figures)

And as for good eyesight, well anyone under 50 who is a working photog and can't out focus a camera on a lens with a short throw should get their eyes checked.

JayGannon
09-21-2010, 08:19
It's crazy. I just heard a news report claiming the (our) "recession" was over in mid 2009. You could have fooled me, and a few others.

Things are tight.. hang in there.

p.

Hehe come to Ireland where our economy is still frigging contracting and we're headed for 20% unemployment, wish I had more savings at which point I would have been outta here.... again.

NickTrop
09-21-2010, 08:23
@aizan - No, that one doesn't but you're posting "the extreme" to prove a point, not what's typical. There's not much design difference between an SLR and a DSLR. - There's not all that much design difference between film point-n-shoot, digital compacts, etc. Take away the DSLR hump, put any kind of EVF or OVF on top go with dials instead of menus and you will have a camera that essentially looks like a rangefinder, as the Fuji does. How else would it look? How else could it look? I think its a case of form following function for the most part... Just like SLR/DSLR design. I don't think Fuji is trying to be "retro cool" here no more than DSLR makers were trying to do that. Take away the hump, add a few dials, that's what you got.

semilog
09-21-2010, 08:24
Someone did it and now we have some very fast machines.

Give it time. The drive to make things better combined with profitability and a bit of greed can make magical thing happen. Just hope it's not too much greed.

Well, yes, "giving it time" (i.e., a longer exposure) is one way to increase SNR on a sensor. :p

Seriously, though, in high-end astronomy, microscopy, etc., what's limiting light sensitivity at this point is the number of photons falling on the sensors — not so much the sensors themselves, anymore. And for a given subject, the only way to get more photons is with a bigger numerical aperture.

Those high-end cameras already exhibit 90% quantum efficiency and low read noise. The chips also tend to be held under high vacuum and at low temperatures, below -40 C. They also tend to have larger pixels (6.5 um and up).

A huge amount of what's happening in sensor development now is optimisation of small pixels (below 5 um, which would be a 36 megapixel FF sensor). The electronics required to read and reset charge accumulated at each pixel take up space that is not light sensitive (shading factor). Much development right now, such as gapless microlens tech, is motivated by decreasing shading factor.

The major motive for doing this is to improve small sensors, especially in cell phones, since their shading factors tend to be a lot higher than with larger pixels. Some of those efforts are trickling into larger-sensor cameras, which is why you see increasing pixel counts as on the Canon 7D.

It is no an accident that the first mass market devices with back-thinned sensors are cell phones, not DSLRs.

Anyway, the consumer sensors are closing in on what is physically possible faster than many realise.

kshapero
09-21-2010, 08:30
Fujifilm's FinePix X100 ships March 2011 for $1,000, we go hands-on

Engadget

RayPA
09-21-2010, 08:35
How about an audible, beeping distance scale, where A440 = 2M? :D

LOL! That's actually not a bad idea! :p


/

PKR
09-21-2010, 08:36
Well, yes, "giving it time" (i.e., a longer exposure) is one way to increase SNR on a sensor. :p

Seriously, though, in high-end astronomy, microscopy, etc., what's limiting light sensitivity at this point is the number of photons falling on the sensors ó not so much the sensors themselves, anymore. And for a given subject, the only way to get more photons is with a bigger numerical aperture.

Those high-end cameras already exhibit 90% quantum efficiency and low read noise. The chips also tend to be held under high vacuum and at low temperatures, below -40 C. They also tend to have larger pixels (6.5 um and up).

A huge amount of what's happening in sensor development now is optimisation of small pixels (below 5 um, which would be a 36 megapixel FF sensor). The electronics required to read and reset charge accumulated at each pixel take up space that is not light sensitive (shading factor). Much development right now, such as gapless microlens tech, is motivated by decreasing shading factor.

The major motive for doing this is to improve small sensors, especially in cell phones, since their shading factors tend to be a lot higher than with larger pixels. Some of those efforts are trickling into larger-sensor cameras, which is why you see increasing pixel counts as on the Canon 7D.

It is no an accident that the first mass market devices with back-thinned sensors are cell phones, not DSLRs.

Anyway, the consumer sensors are closing in on what is physically possible faster than many realise.

One popular way to increase S/N is through cooling the sensor package. This is done in many applications where a source of power is not an issue and very high resolution is needed. i don't think you'll be finding any SLRs with Peltier cooling any time soon. Are the sensors on your microscopes cooled? p.

semilog
09-21-2010, 08:38
One popular way to increase S/N is through cooling the sensor package. This is done in many applications where a source of power is not an issue and very high resolution is needed. i don't think you'll be finding any SLRs with Peltier cooling any time soon. Are the sensors on your microscopes cooled? p.

Yes, to -40 to -80 C.

JayGannon
09-21-2010, 08:44
Anyway, the consumer sensors are closing in on what is physically possible faster than many realise.

I know one or two guys working in CMOS development who would disagree. With traditional thinking yes but theres still at least 10-15 years left in the hardware development field. On the otherhand I am not talking about miniature sensors I am talking about are in the 35mm range. I dont know if thats what you were classing as consumer (I am assuming you we're). And yes there is cooling issues but a not Pelitier/Sub Zero balance can be found with active but compact cooling systems. Chilled but not too cold :P

semilog
09-21-2010, 08:46
LOL! That's actually not a bad idea! :p /

Just what I need -- to carry a tuning fork in my camera bag! :rolleyes:

PKR
09-21-2010, 08:46
Yes, to -40 to -80 C.

It would be great to be able to do that in a camera, but the batteries would be an issue, as would be the moisture.

A friend designed a sensor for core analysis in oil drilling. It was cooled down pretty low. The die cost was $30K/unit. I don't know what the yield was; likely very low as per the cost. He was to get a unit as a gift. The plan was to build a camera for his telescope. His kids would love the high-tech toy.

mervynyan
09-21-2010, 08:55
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/21/fujifilms-finepix-x100-ships-march-2011-for-1-000-we-go-hands/

$1000 for X100, wow

imokruok
09-21-2010, 09:07
Thanks for posting that. Just saw it Engadget too. Not surprising at all. The build quality looks quite good and the sensor is APS-C - no reason it would be competitively priced with nice P&S cameras. Of course, if we're lucky, $1,000 is retail and retailers will immediately discount.

semilog
09-21-2010, 09:08
...the batteries would be an issue, as would be the moisture.

Bingo. Imagine using a cooled camera in the tropics, or on the US mid-Atlantic coast in the summer. The condensation would kill you.

tbarker13
09-21-2010, 09:09
I find it sort of interesting that folks on this forum hear "$1,000" as a price tag and conclude that it will sell like crazy.
But the folks at Engadget hear the same price tag and declare that it will be a niche product and that it is "doubtful that Fuji will sell oodles of these given the limitations and price."

I have to side with Engadget on this one. I love the look of this new camera (of course I'd like to see how it actually performs) and could even see myself buying one someday. But I don't see a lot of folks shelling out $1,000 for a zoomless camera.

zumbido
09-21-2010, 09:09
No offense but mentioning semi-pro and pro friends just doesnt add any credence to your argument.

General breakdown would be:
News photographers - Af, Sport Photographers - Af, most others Hybrid of both. Documentary photographers 50/50.

Semi-pro photographers - who cares in the context of a discussion of a tool for working photographers.

I didn't know that was the exclusive context. At any rate, you clearly misunderstood what I was getting at, so ah well.

As for the artist bashing, I know 5 or 6 fine art photographers who make sick amounts of money each year from their work. (well into 6 figures)

If you interpreted that as "bashing" you very clearly misunderstood what I was saying. :)

And as for good eyesight, well anyone under 50 who is a working photog and can't out focus a camera on a lens with a short throw should get their eyes checked.

In a forum that's never short on laughable blanket assertions, that one is right up there.

gilpen123
09-21-2010, 09:09
Where's the cue?

dazedgonebye
09-21-2010, 09:12
Price being reported as $1000.

http://www.petapixel.com/2010/09/21/fujifilm-finepix-x100-to-cost-1000/


oops. i see i was beaten to the punch on this one.

semilog
09-21-2010, 09:12
I know one or two guys working in CMOS development who would disagree. With traditional thinking yes but theres still at least 10-15 years left in the hardware development field.

Could be. I know less about CMOS than I do about CCD.

Contrary to what many think, CMOS sensors have (in important respects) not caught up with the better CCDs, which is why CCDs still mostly rule in scientific imaging. The biggest benefit of CMOS is that it is cheaper to fabricate and that you can put additional circuitry on the same chip.

Nevertheless, there is a limit to what's physically possible and the biggest gains appear to be happening on sensors with tiny (~2 um) pixels. I'd love to have a beer with your friends.

Paul T.
09-21-2010, 09:16
I find it sort of interesting that folks on this forum hear "$1,000" as a price tag and conclude that it will sell like crazy.
But the folks at Engadget hear the same price tag and declare that it will be a niche product and that it is "doubtful that Fuji will sell oodles of these given the limitations and price."

I have to side with Engadget on this one. I love the look of this new camera (of course I'd like to see how it actually performs) and could even see myself buying one someday. But I don't see a lot of folks shelling out $1,000 for a zoomless camera.

Well, none of us know, do we, but it's a fact that micro fourthirds are massive sellers - 40% of DSLR sales in Japan, I've read, which is a huge percentage for such recent arrivals, up against Canon and Nikon.

And while a lot of users will opt for the zooms, every GF1 user I've bumped into (Ok, a sample base of four or five) has the 20mm. I paid around £650 for my GF1, with £50 cash back - in comparison, I reckon £800 for the X100 is a bargain, given I can focus with the VF and not the damn screen on the back, given I don't have to mess around with an add-on finder, and given picture quality is likely better, with the larger sensor.

Again, if the focus is lousy in use, like the X1, that's a different matter, but this is a camera that should press the right buttons (or rotate the correct dials) for a lot of photographers.

PKR
09-21-2010, 09:18
Bingo. Imagine using a cooled camera in the tropics, or on the US mid-Atlantic coast in the summer. The condensation would kill you.

I read a story about a guy using a prototype sensor on a view camera. He was traveling in the south west with this big rig. The photo of his gear led me to think he must have had an assistant, as one person couldn't have packed the gear alone. The battery pack, likely SLAs were in a good size box. Some how I got the idea the sensor package was cooled.. maybe not.

I don't know what became of this "high tech" photo project. I recall that Bill Gates was funding the thing.

willie_901
09-21-2010, 09:24
Frankly, a few others may confirm this, but for a "pro" to be hanging out in these forums it's more an indication that they aren't too busy or they're procrastinating about doing something distasteful. I know this to be true.

Well I was really busy until word got out among my clients that I used auto focus. Since then things have been really slow. So, here I am.

Actually I have gigs today and tomorrow where I will use AF on my D700 to manually set the optimum focus point for interior shots.

tapesonthefloor
09-21-2010, 09:33
This hybrid viewfinder makes many things possible. Let's imagine something together:

Engadget confirmed for us that the MF-ring is actually a MF-ring. This is excellent news. As most of us probably know, manual focus in a digital camera is near useless without a quick and easy way to confirm focus. dSLRs deal with this by having decent optical viewfinders and a focus dot. EVIL cameras deal with this by having a variety of software solutions, none of which I find satisfying, and most of which I find maddening. Is it the Olympus models that have the zooming focus method that only works with their new AF lenses? This, in my opinion, is terrible. If I'm ever going to be happy focusing manually with a digital camera, I have have have to have my eye (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS4HQxP0kQ0) up to an optical viewfinder. Maybe I'm already an old man at thirty, but this is simply a necessity for me.

With the X100 and some software, I can have a bit of everyone's cake, and ... eat... them? ...okay, ignore that part.

So, if I'm reading all this emergent data right, I have the choice between seeing only the EVF or seeing the OVF with some choice EVF bits merged. Since they're using a prism, they won't be able to project lowlights over the OVF, correct? the EVF is a light source, meaning only bright things (frame lines, data/numbers, etc) will be able to be superimposed on the OVF image. So, perhaps instead of the traditional rangefinder patch, when I'm in MF mode the EVF can project a zoomed-in, contrasty patch of the image into the center of my display so I can do a contrast focus on my own. Perhaps it will be similar to the new Pens in that the patch appears automatically when I touch the zoom ring. The difference will be, however, that instead of switching to a full zoom mode in the most jarring way possible (like the Pens), the camera will be able to project a bright patch onto the optical image. Augmented reality.

I can't picture exactly how this "contrast zoom" patch might look when the EVF can only project bright areasóit might look like a part of your composition is sitting in front of a bad blue-screen in the 70sóbut it would still be enough to focus as quickly as one would with a proper RF once one was used to it.

I'm going to stop rambling now, but I have my fingers crossed that this triggers someone else's creativity. I really don't think we've even started to touch on what's possible here with this hybrid viewfinder and some creative firmware. This is probably the future.

tapesonthefloor
09-21-2010, 09:39
Man, pardon the ramble. I'm usually more eloquent than this. I guess I'm excited.

Paul T.
09-21-2010, 09:40
This hybrid viewfinder makes many things possible. Let's imagine something together:

Engadget confirmed for us that the MF-ring is actually a MF-ring. This is excellent news. As most of us probably know, manual focus in a digital camera is near useless without a quick and easy way to confirm focus. dSLRs deal with this by having decent optical viewfinders and a focus dot. EVIL cameras deal with this by having a variety of software solutions, none of which I find satisfying, and most of which I find maddening. Is it the Olympus models that have the zooming focus method that only works with their new AF lenses? This, in my opinion, is terrible. If I'm ever going to be happy focusing manually with a digital camera, I have have have to have my eye (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS4HQxP0kQ0) up to an optical viewfinder. Maybe I'm already an old man at thirty, but this is simply a necessity for me.

With the X100 and some software, I can have a bit of everyone's cake, and ... eat... them? ...okay, ignore that part.

So, if I'm reading all this emergent data right, I have the choice between seeing only the EVF or seeing the OVF with some choice EVF bits merged. Since they're using a prism, they won't be able to project lowlights over the OVF, correct? the EVF is a light source, meaning only bright things (frame lines, data/numbers, etc) will be able to be superimposed on the OVF image. So, perhaps instead of the traditional rangefinder patch, when I'm in MF mode the EVF can project a zoomed-in, contrasty patch of the image into the center of my display so I can do a contrast focus on my own. Perhaps it will be similar to the new Pens in that the patch appears automatically when I touch the zoom ring. The difference will be, however, that instead of switching to a full zoom mode in the most jarring way possible (like the Pens), the camera will be able to project a bright patch onto the optical image. Augmented reality.

I can't picture exactly how this "contrast zoom" patch might look when the EVF can only project bright areasóit might look like a part of your composition is sitting in front of a bad blue-screen in the 70sóbut it would still be enough to focus as quickly as one would with a proper RF once one was used to it.

I'm going to stop rambling now, but I have my fingers crossed that this triggers someone else's creativity. I really don't think we've even started to touch on what's possible here with this hybrid viewfinder and some creative firmware. This is probably the future.

I can't help thinking that the EVF view will be just that. An EVF view. You will probably be able to switch to a magnified version if desried, as on the G1, but my guess is that focusing is designed mainly to be centre-spot AF, rather like the Hexar, and manual focus will be something of a kludge.

Perhaps it's theoreticaly possible, given that the VF and the sensor are at physically different points, that they could act as a triangular rangefinder, but I'm certain that if they'd done this, Fuji would have made more of a song and dance about it. As it is, the VF arrangement is more advanced than anything we've seen to date.

tbarker13
09-21-2010, 09:42
... but this is a camera that should press the right buttons (or rotate the correct dials) for a lot of photographers.

That could very well be true. I just think it's a camera that's going to push the right buttons for a fairly small group of photographers - like us.
And to be clear, I'm not bashing the camera. I applaud a camera maker for trying something like this.
But I just don't believe we can look at the reaction of this forum's members and learn much of anything about how the camera will be received out in the real world. But then, I'm also sure that Fuji probably has fairly modest sales goals for the camera.

jsrockit
09-21-2010, 09:42
It will sell well because common people won't need to focus and they'll move the aperture to f/2 and with a background blur they'll feel like photographers easily... :) That's what sells cameras these days because that's what the first millions and millions of compact digitals everybody had couldn't do... And it's cool for them, but it should not cost $1800...

Cheers,

Juan

Jeez, why are you making like manually focusing a camera is so damn hard to do...it's avery easy concept. I'm sure "common" people could handle manually focusing if they wanted to...

This is still a niche product...this isn't for the masses.

tapesonthefloor
09-21-2010, 09:46
Perhaps it's theoreticaly possible, given that the VF and the sensor are at physically different points, that they could act as a triangular rangefinder, but I'm certain that if they'd done this, Fuji would have made more of a song and dance about it. As it is, the VF arrangement is more advanced than anything we've seen to date.

Triangulation isn't really required in this camera. As the EVF is giving us a live-view, it's essentially a mirrorless SLR, meaning we'll be able to do our own eyeball contrast focusing. Does that make sense? I want that zoomed, contasty through-the-lens patch to be superimposed on my OVF, and since we know those frame-lines and data bits are already doing this, we know this is possible.

Basically, I don't even need Fuji to write this code. I'll start fiddling with the firmware as soon as the first hack is found.

...edited to add: A Fuji that is free and open with its firmware would be nice. This hybrid viewfinder opens a lot of doors, and if the company were to tap the creativity of the community to help find new ways to use this camera post-launch that would be ideal. Fuji! Hi! CHDK has only done good things for Canon and its cameras! Make designing custom firmware legal, and free, and easy!

Paul T.
09-21-2010, 09:51
That could very well be true. I just think it's a camera that's going to push the right buttons for a fairly small group of photographers - like us.
And to be clear, I'm not bashing the camera. I applaud a camera maker for trying something like this.
But I just don't believe we can look at the reaction of this forum's members and learn much of anything about how the camera will be received out in the real world. But then, I'm also sure that Fuji probably has fairly modest sales goals for the camera.


Hey, you could be right, who knows? But if we look at the last days of the film SLR, and you were to add up the number of people who used a Contax G2, plus the Hexars, plus the Leicas, plus the Olympus Stylus, plus various older models, that would make up a decent percentage of the whole - a niche market, but a big one.

If Fuji can command that niche, it will transform their position. It won't outsell Nikon's SLRs, but if it's $1000 my guess is it will outsell the Ricoh, the Leica X1 , the Samsung NX10, and the Sigma DP1 put together.

jsrockit
09-21-2010, 09:51
And this is not about me: 99% photographers prefer real focusing...


Really? :eek:

tlitody
09-21-2010, 09:52
whatever you think about this camera it is just one focal length which will only suit one section of the photography world. But at the price and should a couple of different focal length versions become available, then I can see people buying each focal length. They are small enough to carry three very easily which means you always have backups with you. The only questionable thing is the viewfinder. Its not likely to be a ZM but if its good enough and given that the shutter response is supposed to be very fast and asssuming the focus speed matches, then it'll be a real winner.
Only thing is that since the sensor and lens are matched, fuji would need to design another sensor for each focal length so don't expect subsequent versions to be any cheaper.

tlitody
09-21-2010, 09:54
Oh and everyone is going to hate the fact the viewfinder is only 0.5x magnification so it'll look completely different from your leicas and zeiss and bessa viewfinders. But you've said you want one so live with it.

jsrockit
09-21-2010, 09:58
$1000? They must be kidding. It should sell by the bucketload. It'll be on my X-mas wish list if they indeed are right.

Christmas 2011?

Ezzie
09-21-2010, 10:01
Yes I saw the early 2011 info too late. Oh well, by X-mas 2011 I can buy one cheap from one the the dejected no longer so enthusiastic wantedtobe photographers who didnīt understand what it was they bought in the first hand. Which is how I got my R-D1. Suits me fine.

jsrockit
09-21-2010, 10:06
This is the camera to beat at that price point ($1000)... they could have charged twice as much IMO.

I can't believe anyone who likes digital, likes wide-angles, and doesn't like SLRs wouldn't be excited about this. How can you not be?

tonyjuliano
09-21-2010, 10:23
This is one "common" photog who can't wait to get his "common" little hands on this great new camera for the "common" masses.

I've been waiting for this for years, my M9 fund (which had many years left for fulfillment) has been liquidated.

Pherdinand
09-21-2010, 10:35
wha? 1000 bucks? who said that? where does that come from? do i have to read all the 30 pages? humm
sounds not too bad :D

aizan
09-21-2010, 10:36
@aizan - No, that one doesn't but you're posting "the extreme" to prove a point, not what's typical. There's not much design difference between an SLR and a DSLR. - There's not all that much design difference between film point-n-shoot, digital compacts, etc. Take away the DSLR hump, put any kind of EVF or OVF on top go with dials instead of menus and you will have a camera that essentially looks like a rangefinder, as the Fuji does. How else would it look? How else could it look? I think its a case of form following function for the most part... Just like SLR/DSLR design. I don't think Fuji is trying to be "retro cool" here no more than DSLR makers were trying to do that. Take away the hump, add a few dials, that's what you got.

every website notes its retro look. if the designers of the x100 were the same ones who did the contax g, hexar rf, hasselblad xpan, etc., as i suspect, the x100 is a departure from their usual designs. it really stands out in miserere's size comparison image, and is even more extreme than the already retro olympus pen and leica x1. put it next to a ricoh and tell me their styles don't greatly differ. if you still insist that the x100 is not a retro styled camera, i don't have much else to say!

Ezzie
09-21-2010, 10:39
Retro or not. They've certainly made a better job of it than the PEN, which is just plain ugly. Then again I like the looks of my R-D1. ;)

Soothsayerman
09-21-2010, 10:45
A modern version of the Canonet QL17GIII, a camera that I love. Can't wait.

aizan
09-21-2010, 10:46
i like the pen for the most part. i would just do away with their particular front plate surface treatments and grip.

Chaser
09-21-2010, 10:48
wha? 1000 bucks? who said that? where does that come from? do i have to read all the 30 pages? humm
sounds not too bad :D

They have an estimated price on the bjp page

http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/1733866/fujifilm-announces-quality-compact

Ezzie
09-21-2010, 10:54
Several sites seem to agree on a $1000 price point.

Paul T.
09-21-2010, 10:57
Interview with the designer on the bjp website (http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/1734305/photokina-fujifilms-press-conference)

grassmann
09-21-2010, 11:07
This is the camera to beat at that price point ($1000)... they could have charged twice as much IMO.

I can't believe anyone who likes digital, likes wide-angles, and doesn't like SLRs wouldn't be excited about this. How can you not be?

As I don't quite agree that X1's price tag looks as reasonable as GF1's, I hope this lovely-looking babe would come up with a
number that wouldn't remind us of certain disapointment.

This is comparable with GF1 in a number of ways. Since the hybrid viewfinder is such an innovation, I'm willing to pay a few more for it.

Compare with X1's price tag? Come on. People don't have to follow crazy actions.

tom.w.bn
09-21-2010, 11:10
Yesterday I was very enthusiastic about the specs and design of this camera. After some sleep and some thinking about it I am still enthusiastic. That's a good sign :)
Some people say that it has the "old" D90 sensor. That's not too bad. The D90 offers very good image quality. I wouldn't speak of an "old" sensor at all.
So now it depends on the image quality of sensor + lens + chip and how usable the viewfinder is. I think it's promising to get something slightly different.

dazedgonebye
09-21-2010, 11:12
Interview with the designer on the bjp website (http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/1734305/photokina-fujifilms-press-conference)

According to that interview, they only began development a year ago.
Not bad.

tom.w.bn
09-21-2010, 11:16
Interview with the designer on the bjp website (http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/1734305/photokina-fujifilms-press-conference)

The other video on this site is quite interesting too. The spokesman of fujifilm confirms the pricetag of "around 1000$".

emraphoto
09-21-2010, 11:39
This is one "common" photog who can't wait to get his "common" little hands on this great new camera for the "common" masses.

I've been waiting for this for years, my M9 fund (which had many years left for fulfillment) has been liquidated.

I reckon I'm pretty common too. Load me up with two!

rolleistef
09-21-2010, 11:46
Is that the fastest thread ever on RFF? 743 posts and 30 page in just one day??
Oh, I want it by the way!!!

filmfan
09-21-2010, 11:50
I will chime in with an "I want one" comment.

rover
09-21-2010, 11:52
I want it to turn out to be what I truly want and then I will say that I want it.

axiom
09-21-2010, 11:57
I Want Geotagging Please!!!

DGA
09-21-2010, 12:02
Spending 1000$ on this beauty means 1000$ less in my M9 piggy-bank.
Is it worth the extra miles? well, it might be.
I'm positively waiting to the official release.

Brian Sweeney
09-21-2010, 12:05
Around a $1000! With a 23/2 lens and 1/4000s top shutter speed. That is amazing, considering what the Panasonic 20/1.7 lens sells for in mu43 mount.

Good thing I bought the EP2 to use with 50 year old lenses.

Just wait until the M-Mount version of this thing comes out. Focus-Assist with manual lenses...

NickTrop
09-21-2010, 12:05
every website notes its retro look. if the designers of the x100 were the same ones who did the contax g, hexar rf, hasselblad xpan, etc., as i suspect, the x100 is a departure from their usual designs. it really stands out in miserere's size comparison image, and is even more extreme than the already retro olympus pen and leica x1. put it next to a ricoh and tell me their styles don't greatly differ. if you still insist that the x100 is not a retro styled camera, i don't have much else to say!

If you were to design a fixed lens camera that had a built-in OVF (in this case a hybrid OVF) and a shutter speed dial on the top plate what would you do different? And why? It looks "retro" by default (- and because others may note this is inconsequential) because it's not a digital compact, it's not a DSLR. It's a fixed lens camera with an OVF that has a shutter speed dial on the top plate (where it belongs), because folks want this instead of navigating through menus. The back of the camera with the display certainly isn't "retro". Again, why weren't DSLRs considered "retro"... Because they stopped making RFs for the most part in the 70's and SLR design never went away. DSLRs look pretty much the same as SLRs because the form of both followed function. The only thing that might be considered "retro" on the Fuji is the switch in the front that used to be a self-timer. Little switch - who cares? Cameras: rectangular box, lens, viewfinder. D/SLRs have the hump, the ones that have an OVF but no mirror/prism don't. Take away "the hump" from a D/SLR - you have this camera or something that looks very much like it. Not "retro". Just a camera. If they put a "hump" in the middle that did nothing, it wouldn't be considered "retro".

tom.w.bn
09-21-2010, 12:05
I Want Geotagging Please!!!

Every digital camera makes it possible to do Geotagging. They have a built in clock and they write the time in the exif file information of a photo. Now all you need is a small external geotagger and you can match the information.
Don't embedd a geotagger in a camera I want to buy. I don't need it and it needs power from the camera battery too.

tonyjuliano
09-21-2010, 12:16
Every digital camera makes it possible to do Geotagging. They have a built in clock and they write the time in the exif file information of a photo. Now all you need is a small external geotagger and you can match the information.
Don't embedd a geotagger in a camera I want to buy. I don't need it and it needs power from the camera battery too.

Umm, I'm pretty sure the previous poster was being sarcastic...

Paul T.
09-21-2010, 12:28
If you were to design a fixed lens camera that had a built-in OVF (in this case a hybrid OVF) and a shutter speed dial on the top plate what would you do different? And why? It looks "retro" by default (- and because others may note this is inconsequential) because it's not a digital compact, it's not a DSLR. It's a fixed lens camera with an OVF that has a shutter speed dial on the top plate (where it belongs), because folks want this instead of navigating through menus. The back of the camera with the display certainly isn't "retro". Again, why weren't DSLRs considered "retro"... Because they stopped making RFs for the most part in the 70's and SLR design never went away. DSLRs look pretty much the same as SLRs because the form of both followed function. The only thing that might be considered "retro" on the Fuji is the switch in the front that used to be a self-timer. Little switch - who cares? Cameras: rectangular box, lens, viewfinder. D/SLRs have the hump, the ones that have an OVF but no mirror/prism don't. Take away "the hump" from a D/SLR - you have this camera or something that looks very much like it. Not "retro". Just a camera.

NO biggie but... check out the bjp interview, and you'll see the designers are an in-house Fuji team, and they discuss the retro look of the camera, too.

tom.w.bn
09-21-2010, 12:31
Umm, I'm pretty sure the previous poster was being sarcastic...

Me too.....

Yashi
09-21-2010, 12:32
Several sites seem to agree on a $1000 price point.

See a working x100 at Photokina

http://www.flickr.com/photos/koelnmesse/5011219262/

Looks pretty real to me...there are some more pics from Photokina and some more of the x100. Also there is one shot where you can see the ext. flash, a nice brown carry bag...here it is...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/koelnmesse/5011219262/


price...."according to a spokesman on the Fuji stand at the photokina show in Germany. "

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk...ws_302063.html (http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Leica_style_Fuji_Finepix_X100_price_1000_News_and_ picture_gallery_news_302063.html)



+ I totally believe that the images will be top notch.

imokruok
09-21-2010, 12:35
Umm, I'm pretty sure the previous poster was being sarcastic...

Geotagging would not be out of the realm of additions to this camera. Many in the new crop of P&S cameras have it. But as the poster above said, it's not necessary and may not even be wanted. Extra battery draw, and if you really want geotagging, you can get a little clip-on GPS from Holux or some place that is cheap and functional.

tom.w.bn
09-21-2010, 12:35
I'll be at photokina on thursday. Now this is on top of my list :)

imokruok
09-21-2010, 12:36
See a working x100 at Photokina

http://www.flickr.com/photos/koelnmesse/5011219262/

Looks pretty real to me...there are some more pics from Photokina and some more of the x100. Also there is one shot where you can see the ext. flash, a nice brown carry bag...here it is...
.

They had the display working just so it looked like it was doing something, but the camera had no sensor so no one could really try it out - even though that shot really looks like it worked!!

Juan Valdenebro
09-21-2010, 12:43
you need to become friends with a guy called Brad over on photonet. You could play internet ping pong together.

Every time anyone talked about Leicas in the Leica forum, he would interject saying they weren't professionals, merely liked to fondle cameras, and that real photographers used the Hexar AF, like him.

Hi Paul,

There are photographic reasons for all I've posted... It's not about who I am, but about what that compact digital -maybe even without fast manual focus- camera is... It's an amateur camera: that's all I've said...

Cheers,

Juan

coelacanth
09-21-2010, 12:50
JohnnyT,

See the top view. It even has aperture clicks on lens barrel. :)


Earlier reports were saying 120k-150k yen. If it really is $1000, I bet this camera will be all over the RFF. :D

BillBingham2
09-21-2010, 12:58
Fingers crossed, it might be the first P&S camera worth that much coin.

B2 (;->

BillBingham2
09-21-2010, 12:58
I'll be at photokina on thursday. Now this is on top of my list :)

Please let us know what/how you find. Ask if Cosina has any hand in this too?

B2 (;->

tpjkevin
09-21-2010, 13:13
I personally would think it'll be great for this camera to have an interchangeable mount, if possible.

robbeiflex
09-21-2010, 13:17
I personally would think it'll be great for this camera to have an interchangeable mount, if possible.

I second that. If Fujifilm is reading this, then I want them to know that I like what I see but prefer to wait for the second version with interchangeable mount. ;)

Rob

tom.w.bn
09-21-2010, 13:21
I second that. If Fujifilm is reading this, then I want them to know that I like what I see but prefer to wait for the second version with interchangeable mount. ;)

Rob

Perhaps there is a parallel to the Konica Hexars? First Konica launchend the fixed lens Hexar AF (perhaps to test the market) and later the Hexar RF with M-Mount.

Paul T.
09-21-2010, 13:28
Perhaps there is a parallel to the Konica Hexars? First Konica launchend the fixed lens Hexar AF (perhaps to test the market) and later the Hexar RF with M-Mount.
Do check out the bjp interview. My impression was indeed that it was simplest to start with the 35mm fixed lens... they didn't state they would follow up but you can bet they will .

A shame really that the questions weren't more incisive. At one point he asks a five line question along the lines of "were you designing this camera for camera junkies, or for the mass-market"? but puts it in such a convoluted way that we never get an answer.

I would also like to have seen them grilled more on the practicalities of how quick the focusing is. I disagree with Juan, who states that only amateurs use autofocus - nonetheless, it's true that professionals won't use slow autofocus. THat's one of the key factors that will make this more than a cool item of photographic jewelery.

Juan Valdenebro
09-21-2010, 13:28
whatever you think about this camera it is just one focal length which will only suit one section of the photography world. But at the price and should a couple of different focal length versions become available, then I can see people buying each focal length. They are small enough to carry three very easily which means you always have backups with you. The only questionable thing is the viewfinder. Its not likely to be a ZM but if its good enough and given that the shutter response is supposed to be very fast and asssuming the focus speed matches, then it'll be a real winner.
Only thing is that since the sensor and lens are matched, fuji would need to design another sensor for each focal length so don't expect subsequent versions to be any cheaper.

+1 to all that.

Cheers,

Juan

emraphoto
09-21-2010, 13:32
This camera isn't professional?!? Well scrub my previous enthusiasm, it simply won't do.

hitmanh
09-21-2010, 13:32
I'm looking forward to seeing X100 in action I'd love a film version of my Yashica GSN/Lynx

tapesonthefloor
09-21-2010, 13:33
I simply won't be pleased until they make a lefty version. If I can't use my left eye to compose or my left finger to trigger the shutter then I might just take up knitting.

Yours in self-parody,

tapesonthefloor

Paddy C
09-21-2010, 13:43
Engadget is confirming the March 2011 release date and "near" $1,000 price tag as Fuji goals.

I cannot believe that price.

And I'm 95% sure I'm buying one. Heck I'm pre-ordering this baby.

Juan Valdenebro
09-21-2010, 13:43
Around a $1000! With a 23/2 lens and 1/4000s top shutter speed. That is amazing, considering what the Panasonic 20/1.7 lens sells for in mu43 mount.

Good thing I bought the EP2 to use with 50 year old lenses.

Just wait until the M-Mount version of this thing comes out. Focus-Assist with manual lenses...

Then!

Cheers,

Juan

Frankie
09-21-2010, 13:49
Engadget is confirming the March 2011 release date and "near" $1,000 price tag as Fuji goals.

I cannot believe that price.

And I'm 95% sure I'm buying one. Heck I'm pre-ordering this baby.

In the BJP video at the Fuji press conference, the presenter did say, very clearly, that the price is ~$1000...not euro or any other hard currency.

remegius
09-21-2010, 13:50
One thing this thread is...even without all the off-topic stuff....much, much longer than the M9 announcement threads.

An interesting observation. What's your take on that?

Cheers...

Rem

tom.w.bn
09-21-2010, 13:53
One thing this thread is...even without all the off-topic stuff....much, much longer than the M9 announcement threads.

The discussion with the M9 was much easier. Does it come? Is it fullframe? After that was clear, the photo quality mattered. Above that nothing surprising or unexpected happened.

Compared to that the X100 is completely new and leaves more room for speculation.

tonyjuliano
09-21-2010, 13:58
This camera isn't professional?!? Well scrub my previous enthusiasm, it simply won't do.

Yep, I'm out too...

Not wasting my time on any non-professional camera. And, God forbid, something that has auto-focus.

What would all my "pro-friends" think?

:rolleyes:

xayraa33
09-21-2010, 14:01
This Fuji camera is more "obtainable" for most folks than an M9.

dazedgonebye
09-21-2010, 14:03
This Fuji camera is more "obtainable" for most folks than an M9.

Bingo...I wouldn't discuss the M9 because it is completely out of my reach.

Frankie
09-21-2010, 14:08
My interest in watching this thread, in addition to trolling the Internet, is to get more specification details than was available.

I have found enough to form a favourable opinion and my credit card is ready.

Anyway, I thought I would share what I found. Please contribute if you found something not already identified...or in error.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1423215&postcount=47
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1423929&postcount=73

JayGannon
09-21-2010, 14:15
15 DIGITAL POINT-AND-SHOOT CAMERAS USED BY PRO PHOTOGRAPHERS (http://blog.photoshelter.com/2010/07/15-digital-point-and-shoot-cameras-used-by-pros.html)

Ya think some of these pros might use the X100?

I assisted for an LA tog who made high 6 figues for one nights work using only a Yashica T4 once. And yes it was out of choice, he has asked to be an unobtrusive at a birthday as possible.

Point being there is no such thing as a professional camera, only professional (talented is a better word, anyone can be professional and crap) photographers.

tom.w.bn
09-21-2010, 14:16
Please let us know what/how you find. Ask if Cosina has any hand in this too?

B2 (;->

Will do my best :)

Al Patterson
09-21-2010, 14:26
Juan - don't you know you're not allowed to be critical of a camera once it gets the RFF seal of approval? Get with the program, mahn!

Yeah, it's the new Yashica GSN...

Juan Valdenebro
09-21-2010, 14:33
Guys, if we're going to stumble awkwardly through diatribes about this or about that can we at least keep it specifically to the X100? Or, perhaps, if Juan & co want to carry on with this more general and philosophical debate, can they agree to do it in another thread? This specific conversation has gone on for 10-20 replies now, and I haven't seen it actually move forward in awhile. It's done. Let's get back to giving Fuji endless amounts of positive reinforcement for actually listening to us. :D

Fuji: some of us would prefer a double image rangefinder, and M-mount or at least a few Fuji lenses... Thanks!

Cheers,

Juan

Leigh Youdale
09-21-2010, 14:46
Hey Guys,
Keep this going! Don't give up now!
It's going to make an excellent case study in communication and pedantry, and who knows - we might crack the 1000 posts barrier in the next 24 hours!

Kin Lau
09-21-2010, 14:53
15 DIGITAL POINT-AND-SHOOT CAMERAS USED BY PRO PHOTOGRAPHERS (http://blog.photoshelter.com/2010/07/15-digital-point-and-shoot-cameras-used-by-pros.html)

Ya think some of these pros might use the X100?

Very cool list. Shows that best camera is the one you're carrying.

Tsai
09-21-2010, 14:54
I wish all manufactures would take note on how to implement manual designs. More knobs and dials, less menu systems.

If i wanted menus, i'd go to a restaurant.... ;)

jsrockit
09-21-2010, 14:55
Fingers crossed, it might be the first P&S camera worth that much coin.

B2 (;->

Point and Shoot?

Juan Valdenebro
09-21-2010, 14:56
I have an opinion, that's all... As with any camera, I would prefer the X100 had a great manual focus because that would make it a better camera.

Cheers,

Juan

Ezzie
09-21-2010, 14:58
I agree Paul. Enthusiasm expressed by many, for a new product (dare I say non Leica), is evidently frowned upon by some, as if it were heresy. Not fun,

Juan Valdenebro
09-21-2010, 14:59
This Fuji camera is more "obtainable" for most folks than an M9.

That's the only relation between both cameras in my opinion...

Cheers,

Juan

Juan Valdenebro
09-21-2010, 15:02
15 DIGITAL POINT-AND-SHOOT CAMERAS USED BY PRO PHOTOGRAPHERS (http://blog.photoshelter.com/2010/07/15-digital-point-and-shoot-cameras-used-by-pros.html)

Ya think some of these pros might use the X100?

Sure! I could also use it for a session, depending on what I need.

Cheers,

Juan

jsrockit
09-21-2010, 15:05
I'm glad it isn't a "pro" camera or it would have convoluted menus, no dedicated shutter speed dials / aperture rings, and a large price tag to go with it.

FrankS
09-21-2010, 15:09
I'm not so enthused by new digital camera release announcements so it wasn't until just today that I followed a link to what the 100x was about. It sure looks interesting. Definitely moving in the right direction.

Juan Valdenebro
09-21-2010, 15:19
COMING SOON! The Casio Exilim PRO! It says PRO yo so it must be for us PROz! Yo!

Wow. Seriously? You're not being ironic? Just a little bit? Really? No?

OK then... moving on...

(sheesh).

You didn't notice I was just talking about Fuji's own naming...

Cheers,

Juan

Ezzie
09-21-2010, 15:24
You didn't notice I was just talking about Fuji's own naming...

Cheers,

Juan
Yes we did. We also have seem the press release on this camera where Fuji state that the camera is targeted for the pro and serious enthusiast photographers.

urban_alchemist
09-21-2010, 15:24
You didn't notice I was just talking about Fuji's own naming...

Cheers,

Juan

Yeah... cos it iz all aboutz de branding. Innit.

Juan Valdenebro
09-21-2010, 15:25
Well, if Mr. Rockwell talks about it...we're all settled then. :D

When you say things about "fools' money," someone is bound to think you're implying something about them personally. Very few people enjoy being called a fool...no one I know in fact.

Absolutely no, Steve... I consider all of us here on RFF have certain experience in photography and know how to use any camera even if it's not the most powerful tool... I was referring to the huge amount of people that will buy the X100 and really don't care about photography: at least not as much as all of us who photograph constantly long ago with different cameras. I was not talking about RFF or any other forum members but about the massive buyers... Those who decide if buying or not from an ad...

Cheers,

Juan

BillBingham2
09-21-2010, 15:27
Point and Shoot?

Yup, she is not EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens), not a rangefinder (as we have NO idea of how she will focus in manual mode), not an SLR, not 120 folder or TLR, not M4/3, so for now it's P&S. The X1 from leica is the same, as would the O-Series also from Leica.

I used to think it was wrong, but my GRD III lives there and it's just as happy as if it had it's own category. Kit's just a way to categorize stuff, nothing more, nothing less.

B2 (;->

coelacanth
09-21-2010, 15:27
S3 and S5 are miles above the X100 as photographic tools... IQ is what brochures talk about to get fools' money... Even Mr. Rockwell talks about it... The X100 is a nice camera, but a very weak tool for several photographic fields...

Cheers,

Juan

The X100 is 6 months away from release and we haven't even seen any photos from production unit. As far as the form factor/system goes, why are we comparing X100 to S5? It's like saying "Hexar AF is a very week tool compared to Nikon F100." Sure that's totally true if you need to do everything with one camera. Putting SLR and fixed lens "P&S" into one "photographic tool" bucket is a bit of stretch, don't you think? Is it weather-proof metal body with xxfps capability that defines "pro" camera? Photography as profession is a bit too broad to call one type of camera "pro" camera and others "not pro"?

I'm still not getting "pro vs not-pro" thing.

nico
09-21-2010, 15:33
Wow! ... an interesting news transformed in just 2 days in such a boring thread ... :D :D :D

jsrockit
09-21-2010, 15:35
I was referring to the huge amount of people that will buy the X100 and really don't care about photography:

I'm not so convinced this is going to be a huge consumer camera. Consumers who don't know much about photography, but want to get something "pro" always end up with a DSLR because they associate those types of cameras with seriousness. Additionally, this isn't a point and shoot that fits in your pocket.