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Attwo
08-18-2010, 05:23
We all have our favorite makes of camera. Some of us may have a few depending on format and type of usage.

That's all completely normal, but why would anyone "hate", or have a "morbid fear" of a particular camera make or model?

Does anyone have "ill-wishes" for any camera company?

Austerby
08-18-2010, 05:30
I regard Canons in the same way as I regard BMWs - no doubt good at what they do but I could never imagine owning one. It's not a hate or ill-wish, but I do regard them as "bad" in a way that, say, Nikon or Audi are "good". Perhaps its down to the marketing but it's entirely unjustifiable - it's just that some brands and products put me off, others are very desirable.

Sparrow
08-18-2010, 06:23
I'm not that sure about Audi these days, a lot of them seem to have ex-BMW drivers behind the wheel ...

capito
08-18-2010, 06:35
I hold Canikon in similar regard as Microsoft. Mediocre products which everyone buys.

jsrockit
08-18-2010, 06:38
I just don't think about cameras that I don't like. I only worry about the ones I do like.

Gumby
08-18-2010, 07:12
Does anyone have "ill-wishes" for any camera company?

Waht a weird question, but I'll play. NO.

filmfan
08-18-2010, 07:21
haha this is hilarious. Ill-wishes towards a camera brand? This is pure gearhead extremism.

FrankS
08-18-2010, 07:22
Anyone who has read camera forums over the last 5 years surely has read anti-Leica posts which range from the mild and rational (I prefer brand X more than Leica because...) to the extreme and irrational (Leica owners are more interested in buying bling/jewelry than photography, they are fondlers and posers, they have more money than brains to pay so much....).

The anti-Leica attitude was seen strongly in the strangest place: the Leica forum at PNet. The lovable late Al Kaplan, a life-long Leica user was chased and banished from Pnet for his defense of Leica use. The positive out of that was that he ended up here at RFF and found a friendlier place.

Anti-Leica attitude reached a crescendo with the introduction of the M8 and the issues it had. For some reason, an M8 thread at RFF released such strong emotions (pro and con) that moderators were busiest trying to keep M8 threads from getting out of control and disintegrating into personal attacks.

I'm not sure how anyone could not be aware of the anti-Leica attitude present on internet photography forums. This is what Roger is referring to.

ruby.monkey
08-18-2010, 07:23
I think it goes something like this:

There are many people in the world.
Some of these people are insane.
Some of these insane people express their insanity by tying their self-worth to the brands they own.
Some of these insane people who tie their self-worth to the brands they own, view a taste for different brands as an implication that 'their' brands are inferior.
... and therefore that they are inferior.
... and so they must attack these other brands (and the brands' adherents) in order to protect their own self-worth.
... and, having done so, they can bask in the glow of being the stalwart defender of their brands against the onslaught of the unwashed, ignorant masses.Or maybe they just need to go out and get laid.

Gumby
08-18-2010, 07:31
I'm not sure how anyone could not be aware of the anti-Leica attitude present on internet photography forums. This is what Roger is referring to.


Oh... that's the secret question???

Well, maybe I should re-consider my answer.

(hornets nest) <------ POKE

Jamie123
08-18-2010, 07:37
I don't necessarily hate them or wish them ill but I'm a little annoyed by the Impossible Project. The quality of their products, the prices and their marketing are almost insulting. It's like they think they can get away with anything because the people who are into instant film are suckers anyways.

SimonSawSunlight
08-18-2010, 07:37
I think it goes something like this:
There are many people in the world.
Some of these people are insane.
Some of these insane people express their insanity by tying their self-worth to the brands they own.
Some of these insane people who tie their self-worth to the brands they own, view a taste for different brands as an implication that 'their' brands are inferior.
... and therefore that they are inferior.
... and so they must attack these other brands (and the brands' adherents) in order to protect their own self-worth.
... and, having done so, they can bask in the glow of being the stalwart defender of their brands against the onslaught of the unwashed, ignorant masses.Or maybe they just need to go out and get laid.

this shall be written upon my wall. :D

Jamie123
08-18-2010, 07:38
I'm not sure how anyone could not be aware of the anti-Leica attitude present on internet photography forums. This is what Roger is referring to.

My grandmother is totally unaware of the anti-Leica attitude on internet photography forums. Just saying.

John Lawrence
08-18-2010, 07:43
[quote=Attwo;1393917]

That's all completely normal, but why would anyone "hate", or have a "morbid fear" of a particular camera make or model?

quote]

... sometimes the 'hate' part is just down to jealousy.

John

FrankS
08-18-2010, 07:43
My grandmother is totally unaware of the anti-Leica attitude on internet photography forums. Just saying.

The beginning of my post read "...anyone who has read internet photo forums over the last 5 years..."

It's a little frustrating trying to make a point when others are nit-picking, or adding nothing but "clever" remarks.

It's about as helpful as pointing out spelling mistakes.

Gumby
08-18-2010, 07:53
It's a little frustrating trying to make a point when others are nit-picking, or adding nothing but "clever" remarks.


:rolleyes:

Mcary
08-18-2010, 08:01
We all have our favorite makes of camera. Some of us may have a few depending on format and type of usage.

That's all completely normal, but why would anyone "hate", or have a "morbid fear" of a particular camera make or model?

Does anyone have "ill-wishes" for any camera company?


Just visit POTN and say something positive about any camera in the world but Canon and see what happens :rolleyes:

back alley
08-18-2010, 08:09
this thread started off on a sour note, kinda negative...let's make sure it doesn't head further south...

Paul Luscher
08-18-2010, 08:13
Would have to say Canons, then Nikons. Not that these are bad cameras, but Canons have never had any appeal for me. Never thought much of the AE-1, and that determined my feeling about Canons.

Nikons: Have A NIkon F, but that's it. Probably because of the historical nature of the camera. Had Nikon rangefinders, but did not find them to be a good experience. And their SLRs & DSLRs have never had any appeal to me.

Attwo
08-18-2010, 08:20
this thread started off on a sour note, kinda negative...let's make sure it doesn't head further south...

It certainly was'n't meant to be sour. Just trying to understand the zeitgeist.

Anyone who has read camera forums over the last 5 years surely has read anti-Leica posts ...

I'm not sure how anyone could not be aware of the anti-Leica attitude present on internet photography forums. This is what Roger is referring to.

This is my first and only experience of an photo equipment orientated forum, so this would explain that.

I just don't think about cameras that I don't like. I only worry about the ones I do like.

This is exactly my own feeling too, so I can't understand the underlying angst and paranoia of what I read by another member.

Rogrund
08-18-2010, 08:22
I didn't like my first SLR very much, a Praktica super TL. I bought it in 1978, when I was eleven.

Rogrund
08-18-2010, 08:24
this thread started off on a sour note, kinda negative...let's make sure it doesn't head further south...

I believe it's a spin-off to this (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=93948) thread...

Graham Line
08-18-2010, 08:28
I've always had an irrational fear of the Contarex, myself.

Roger Hicks
08-18-2010, 08:31
I believe it's a spin-off to this (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=93948) thread...

Indeed it must be. Attwo seems determined to pick a fight, and to come as close to personal insult as he dares, because he has a problem with the word 'Leicaphobia' and prefers his own interpretation of the English language to that of the Oxford English Dictionary. 'Morbid fear' is his personal fantasy. Which is why I've put him on ignore.

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks
08-18-2010, 08:32
I've always had an irrational fear of the Contarex, myself.

Or the twin-lens Contaflex. Anything that complicated HAS to go wrong sometime -- and probably expensively wrong at that.

Cheers,

R.

back alley
08-18-2010, 08:34
no news here...move along folks...

Gumby
08-18-2010, 08:37
I believe it's a spin-off to this (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=93948) thread...


Oh... that context helped.

Gumby
08-18-2010, 08:37
no news here...move along folks...


... moving along...

ferider
08-18-2010, 08:40
I'm not that sure about Audi these days, a lot of them seem to have ex-BMW drivers behind the wheel ...

Being emotional about brands is just silly, and bad for the consumer since it limits competition. Plus, do we really give the right emotions to the brand, or do we follow successful marketing, feel what others tell us to ?

Take "Audi" for instance. Latin (imperative) for "Listen", or in German "Horch". You might want to check on war-time Horch cars and see who in Germany loved the brand ....

Roland.

Sparrow
08-18-2010, 08:40
I find it's sometimes impossible not to poke fun at some of the brand cheerleaders, they take it all so seriously, I have on occasion had to make fun of stuff I actually use myself

Mcary
08-18-2010, 08:40
no news here...move along folks...

Actually I think the whole idea behind this thread is incredible silly and can't see how anyone could take it seriously. But my past experience on other forums make realize just how seriously some people do take it

Pickett Wilson
08-18-2010, 08:42
I've always disliked the Argus C3, but they sold a ton of 'em, so what do I know. ;)

Gumby
08-18-2010, 08:43
Off-topic question: who does everyone think will close this thread first: joe or FrankS?

Sparrow
08-18-2010, 08:47
Being emotional about brands is just silly, and bad for the consumer since it limits competition. Plus, do we really give the right emotions to the brand, or do we follow successful marketing, feel what others tell us to ?

Take "Audi" for instance. Latin (imperative) for "Listen", or in German "Horch". You might want to check on war-time Horch cars and see who in Germany loved the brand ....

Roland.

It's not that, at one time, in the UK, if one was always BMW drivers that overtook on bends or drove right up one's chuff in traffic whereas but these days it's more likely to be an Audi as anything

Attwo
08-18-2010, 08:48
Indeed it must be. Attwo seems determined to pick a fight, and to come as close to personal insult as he dares, because he has a problem with the word 'Leicaphobia' and prefers his own interpretation of the English language to that of the Oxford English Dictionary. 'Morbid fear' is his personal fantasy. Which is why I've put him on ignore.

Cheers,

R.

I'm far from wanting a fight or insults. Simply trying to get a feeling of the general ambiance here.

FrankS has explained the situation vis a vis "anti Leica" attitude on internet photo forums of which I was unaware.

I'm a long time Leica user myself though I've never experienced the negative encounters cited by yourself.

Stay cool and don't worry too much. I'm sure Leica can defend themselves.

ferider
08-18-2010, 08:51
It's not that, at one time, in the UK, if one was always BMW drivers that overtook on bends or drove right up one's chuff in traffic whereas but these days it's more likely to be an Audi as anything

No problem at all, Stewart - should have quoted post #2. I was just taking Audi as an example of successful re-branding, since Horch was Hitler's favorite. And today, nobody cares.

FrankS
08-18-2010, 08:54
I think you have to ask yourselves what kind of place you want RFF to be.
Fun and entertaining (but not at another's expense), informative, helpful, positive, friendly. Those would be my goals.

Attwo
08-18-2010, 08:55
no news here...move along folks...

Off-topic question: who does everyone think will close this thread first: joe or FrankS?

Why would either?

Can't a guy ask an honest question?

shadowfox
08-18-2010, 08:57
Anyone who has read camera forums over the last 5 years surely has read anti-Leica posts which range from the mild and rational (I prefer brand X more than Leica because...) to the extreme and irrational (Leica owners are more interested in buying bling/jewelry than photography, they are fondlers and posers, they have more money than brains to pay so much....).

The anti-Leica attitude was seen strongly in the strangest place: the Leica forum at PNet. The lovable late Al Kaplan, a life-long Leica user was chased and banished from Pnet for his defense of Leica use. The positive out of that was that he ended up here at RFF and found a friendlier place.

Anti-Leica attitude reached a crescendo with the introduction of the M8 and the issues it had. For some reason, an M8 thread at RFF released such strong emotions (pro and con) that moderators were busiest trying to keep M8 threads from getting out of control and disintegrating into personal attacks.

I'm not sure how anyone could not be aware of the anti-Leica attitude present on internet photography forums. This is what Roger is referring to.

Frank, I for one appreciate this brief "summary."

I haven't been on the photography community (off- or online) *that* long to experience all that, although knowing basic human nature, I kinda suspected it :)

dmr
08-18-2010, 08:59
I'm not sure how anyone could not be aware of the anti-Leica attitude present on internet photography forums.

I really don't dislike anyone's choice of camera (although I wonder why anyone would attempt serious imaging with a Holga or Lomo) as I believe that what works for me might not work for others and vice versa.

However, back when I was getting into photography, I admit to some envy of those who could afford a Leica or a Nikon, and I was also quick to notice the vanity and narcissism (which I perceived, anyway) of some of those who possessed a Leica or Nikon. I considered some who used (and flaunted) a Leica or Nikon to be oh-so-stuck-on-themselves and also on their cameras.

The brand loyalty appeared to be carried to an extreme, and when the users rubbed it in the face of those of us who did not use "their brand", it was annoying, I admit.

Oh well ...

FrankS
08-18-2010, 08:59
Why would either?

Can't a guy ask an honest question?

Many times it is not what you say, but how you say it that causes a problem. The level of combativeness at RFF is rather lower than what has been exhibited.

Roger Hicks
08-18-2010, 09:00
Many British motorcyclists in the 70s and 80s reckoned that you had to kill at least one motorcyclist before you were admitted to the Volvo Owners Club. They seem to have reformed slightly since - or maybe others have got worse...

My favourite 'Sorry, mate, I didn't see you' story was told by someone who said, "What puzzled me was how he knew I was a motorcyclist, as I was driving a 32-seat bus at the tme."

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks
08-18-2010, 09:03
Being emotional about brands is just silly, and bad for the consumer since it limits competition. Plus, do we really give the right emotions to the brand, or do we follow successful marketing, feel what others tell us to ?

Take "Audi" for instance. Latin (imperative) for "Listen", or in German "Horch". You might want to check on war-time Horch cars and see who in Germany loved the brand ....

Roland.
Dear Roland,

As I recall, Horch lost the right to use his own name for cars (sold the company or some such), so brought out Audi instead.

Cheers,

R.

ruby.monkey
08-18-2010, 09:23
I've always had an irrational fear of the Contarex, myself.
That's not irrational - those things are evil. One of 'em kicked my puppy.

chris000
08-18-2010, 09:31
Many British motorcyclists in the 70s and 80s reckoned that you had to kill at least one motorcyclist before you were admitted to the Volvo Owners Club. They seem to have reformed slightly since - or maybe others have got worse...

Ain't that the truth ... and some of us 'survivors' still carry the scars to prove it!

anu L ogy
08-18-2010, 09:56
I think it goes something like this:

There are many people in the world.
Some of these people are insane.
Some of these insane people express their insanity by tying their self-worth to the brands they own.
Some of these insane people who tie their self-worth to the brands they own, view a taste for different brands as an implication that 'their' brands are inferior.
... and therefore that they are inferior.
... and so they must attack these other brands (and the brands' adherents) in order to protect their own self-worth.
... and, having done so, they can bask in the glow of being the stalwart defender of their brands against the onslaught of the unwashed, ignorant masses.Or maybe they just need to go out and get laid.

That was pretty classic. Perhaps its fear. What was that great line from the newer batman movie? "This is a world that you dont understand. And you alaways fear...what you dont understand."

Spider67
08-18-2010, 10:03
Actually it is an interesting question especially with a bit of hindsight when you see how the followers of brands behaved in the 80ies and how they behave now. I remeber afriend of mine who was a camera salesmen loathing Praktica because itw was German and Miranda because it was a small company. Also people saying that Minolta and Canon were amateur brands whereas Nikon was for professionals (NOW that changed). To believe rather in a brand than in the best equipment for the job makes life easier as you don't have to worry so much.
OH yes therwas a German saying (i'll try to translate):
"One of the worlds biggest religions?
VW-beetle drivers they honestly believe in having bought a car"

PS: It's cheaper to impress people with a Leica since many mistake Voigtländers for Leicas"

Gumby
08-18-2010, 10:09
... whereas Nikon was for professionals (NOW that changed).

It hasn't changed for some of us who still use their 1980's Nikon equipment. :D

John Lawrence
08-18-2010, 10:26
Many British motorcyclists in the 70s and 80s reckoned that you had to kill at least one motorcyclist before you were admitted to the Volvo Owners Club.

My favourite 'Sorry, mate, I didn't see you' story was told by someone who said, "What puzzled me was how he knew I was a motorcyclist, as I was driving a 32-seat bus at the tme."

Cheers,

R.

My favourite Volvo joke from the 70s and 80s:

What's the difference between a Hedgehog and a Volvo?

A Hedgehog has the pr*cks on the outside!

John

Attwo
08-18-2010, 11:43
Attwo seems determined to pick a fight, and to come as close to personal insult as he dares, because he has a problem with the word 'Leicaphobia' and prefers his own interpretation of the English language to that of the Oxford English Dictionary. 'Morbid fear' is his personal fantasy. Which is why I've put him on ignore.

Cheers,

R.

Hey. Just to set the record straight here, those are YOUR "OED" words, not my fantasy.


First, look up 'phobia' in the OED: 'Fear. horror or aversion, especially of a morbid character. Psychol. An abnormal and irrational fear or dread.'

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks
08-18-2010, 12:00
Hey. Just to set the record straight here, those are YOUR "OED" words, not my fantasy.

Read what I quoted. Your chosen definition is given as 'In Psychol.', AFTER the other meanings. If you don't like the Oxford English Dictionary, go and write your own, and see if you can get it to command the same respect as the OED.

Choosing it as your sole meaning is indeed a fantasy, and flogging an extremely dead horse will not change anything. No-one except you accepts your definition as exclusive, so why don't you just give up? You say you are not looking for an argument, yet this can have been your only purpose in starting this entire thread: to prove yourself right, when no-one agrees with you.

If you don't like the OED, try Funk and Wagnall. One of their definitions (in the Encyclopedic Collegiate dictionary) is 'any strong aversion or dislike'. They don't give anything like the background that the OED does, but then, they don't have the luxury of 22 volumes. Can't find my Webster's -- don't really need it when I have a OED.

R.

Attwo
08-18-2010, 12:13
You say you are not looking for an argument, yet this can have been your only purpose in starting this entire thread: to prove yourself right, when no-one agrees with you.

R.

I started this thread to see what the general feeling on the forum was like as I thought your sentiments a little bemusing.

FrankS explained this to some extent though I think that ruby.monkey hit the nail on the head:

I think it goes something like this:

There are many people in the world.
Some of these people are insane.
Some of these insane people express their insanity by tying their self-worth to the brands they own.
Some of these insane people who tie their self-worth to the brands they own, view a taste for different brands as an implication that 'their' brands are inferior.
... and therefore that they are inferior.
... and so they must attack these other brands (and the brands' adherents) in order to protect their own self-worth.
... and, having done so, they can bask in the glow of being the stalwart defender of their brands against the onslaught of the unwashed, ignorant masses.

Or maybe they just need to go out and get laid.

Please feel free to ignore me as you previously stated.

NickTrop
08-18-2010, 12:14
TLRs because I can never get used to the reversed image in the viewfinder. However (oddly) got a little GAS for one... No denying they produce excellent images.

Ranchu
08-18-2010, 12:26
I try to assess a camera based on what I see as it's utility to me, I have no love of dancing around Canon's, Nikon's, or Leica's choice of compromises. I look for cameras that inhibit my use of the camera the least. My choices are mine, obviously, but who likes having to sit at a computer longer than you have to? All the hype in the internet isn't going to decrease that time, or increase my satisfaction one bit. I don't like Canon, and I don't like Leica digital. I don't like Nikon digital all that much either. So.

Roger Hicks
08-18-2010, 12:36
I started this thread to see what the general feeling on the forum was like as I thought your sentiments a little bemusing.

FrankS explained this to some extent though I think that ruby.monkey hit the nail on the head:

Please feel free to ignore me as you previously stated.

Every now and then, I check the postings of those on my 'ignore' list (there are currently two of you, out of the whole of RFF), to see if I was too hasty. Your post about 'stay cool' looked mildly conciliatory, so I read another couple of posts. This was a mistake.

Like many people, you are reading what you want to read, not what someone else writes. The piece is about why Leicas can be good cameras for people who like them, and seeks to correct some common misapprehensions -- such as "You can't use lenses over 50mm" or "Leicas aren't suitable for use on tripods" or "Leica users are snobs and fondlers."

Where, for example, are you finding the 'stalwart defender'? You have ignore such phrases as "Fortunately there is a middle ground. It is this: if a Leica suits the way you work, it is a very nice camera. If it doesn't, it's a waste of money. Of course, you can say this about pretty much any other camera ever made. "

Or Some kinds of photography are difficult or impossible with a Leica, it's true. In particular, they are no use with very long lenses for sports or wildlife photography, or for macro, unless (in both cases) you use the Visoflex housing which converts them to rather eccentric SLRs: see The Worst DSLR in the World.

Or To be sure, there are some people who will prefer a Zeiss Ikon or a Voigtländer for specific technical reasons: a Bessa R4 for shooting wide-angles, perhaps, or a Zeiss Ikon because it fits in their hands better.

Or Leicas aren't perfect, and if you're expecting perfection, don't buy one. Anything made by man can go wrong: one of my publishers had a seized engine in the first few hundred miles of running a new Rolls Royce. But that's what guarantees are for on new cameras (and new Rolls Royces, and on second hand cameras and cars bought from dealers). Buy an elderly camera with an uncertain history, via the internet, and what can you expect?

Quite a lot of people enjoyed the piece. You declare yourself 'bemused'. Well, others are bemused at your attitude, too, not least at your rabid insistance that your definition is the only correct one, and your apparent determination to spin out an argument for argument's sake.

R.

FrankS
08-18-2010, 12:58
This would be a good ending point.