Obtaining correct focus in low-light

[mgilbuena]

I recently purchased a completely manual and lightmeterless M4-P. Coupled with a Nokton 50mm F/1.1 lens, I shot a test roll of Kodak Gold 200 and got the results back last night.

In low light conditions, I have found it extremely difficult to obtain correct focus. What techniques do you employ? Do you focus on the catch lights in the eyes? The point of the ears (in cats?)

Here's a picture of my cat that the focus was completely missed upon. Indoors, afternoon, shot at f/1.1 at 1/30

With the light being so dim, I found it hard to make out whether or not the nose was correctly aligned in the focus patch. What things do you guys look for, and what would you have looked for in the cat if you were taking this picture?

[oftheherd]

Focusing in low light is something you learn by practice. I first learned it with an SLR, learning to go too far and too little, choosing the middle where the best focus/contrast was. With RF the same applies except you aren't looking for contrast but coincidence.

You also have to learn to look for areas out of the plane of focus to focus on, then try to adjust to where the focus is needed. That is, a better lit area (or an area with more lines of contrast) just a little in front or behind the plane of focus, then adjust as best as possible. If you are acceptably close, you have the best you can expect. If right on, you can bragg how good you are. :p

[ferider]

You might have missed the shot because you moved.

Prefocus the camera, keep both eyes open, move your body to finalize focus (if the VF is clean and aligned, the patch "snaps" into focus), shoot. I get a much higher hit-rate like this.

[presspass]

What ferider said. It's easier to move you and the camera back or forward to maintain focus, assuming you have the subject in focus. Sometimes, it's easiest to attain focus using the edge of the rangefinder patch rather than the center. A 1.1 lens wide open at a close distance is also an issue.

[Brian Legge]

I'm assuming you were probably 5 feet or so away from what you were focusing on? At 1.1 with a 50mm lens on a 35mm camera, you probably have about 2 inches of 'in focus' anyway. It wouldn't take much movement or rangefinder inaccuracy to throw off the focal plane.

My only experience focusing in low light has been with a Lynx 14 (with a patch that is difficult to see under good lighting conditions). If I don't have some sort of specular highlight to go off of, I'm at a loss as to how to focus in low light with it. I've ended up scale focusing at times when all else fails. Probably not helpful and I don't know if it matches your position - your camera is just a -bit- nicer ;).

[mgilbuena]

Great responses and suggestions. I've never considered obtaining a focus and then physically moving back and forth for a final focus. It seems so obvious in hindsight.

The other suggestion to focus on a lit object and then making adjustments from there is also a nice idea. I'll try both of these with my next roll.

[uhligfd]

Oftentimes it is the shooter's eyes that have trouble in low light. A younger viewer might not have any problem at all in the same situation.

So the moral is: buy your Noctilux early when you still can see well.

[Brian Sweeney]

"Don't shoot until you see the Whites of their eyes".

I tend to focus on the eyes, makes a good dark-against-light point, and you usually want the eyes in focus anyway.

[feenej]

My method: I stop down to f4 rather than shoot wide open, use a long exposure and push the film. Works for me.

[tom.w.bn]

My method: I stop down to f4 rather than shoot wide open, use a long exposure and push the film. Works for me.

So you exchange focus inaccuracy with motion blur?

[Calzone]

When I shoot with my 75 Lux under low light I always use a Leica 1.40X magnifier. It really helps.

I also tend to look in the composition the areas of highest contrast, because this is where the viewers eyes will be drawn to. This area of high contrast is the easiest to focus. Dim lighting tends to make whites grey. Pre-visualize the contrast by squinting.

BTW squinting, even in bright light, will make the contrast more evident.

Generally I also limit the reach. Light fall off is inverse square law, where double the distance is quarter the light. Moving closer to the subject almost always increases the amount of light. I tend to shoot where my focus is limited to no more than 15 feet.

Practice focusing a lot. Some people say the focus throw of a Noctilux and 75 Lux is too big, but IMHO it is an asset. I always rack my focus from infinity and practice stopping without racking the focus back and fourth. I learned this from doing ENG (Electronic News Gathering) using video equipment.

I also practice a lot for street shooting where quick focusing is a valuable skill. Practice focusing fast all the time. I find that this helps a lot under hand held.

For me, under low light, using only one eye works the best. I figure my brain recieves a lot less information and is better to concentrate, accentuating what information I am processing. In otherwords: the info not in my viewfinder is to me like noise.

Good luck.

Cal

[feenej]

So you exchange focus inaccuracy with motion blur?


Yeah, I get good results that way. F4 all the way. Don't forget I said push the film too.

[ItsReallyDarren]

Cats are good for mastering precise focus, their always moving. In the meantime you can try static objects until you get a better feel of pinpoint focusing on a rangefinder. (some) People are pretty responsive to holding still for a picture.

[filmfan]

I think the best advice I have heard with this is that film is cheap, so bracket.

[LeicaFoReVer]

what about focus shift? Nobody mentioned it. Does Nokton have focus shift at wide open?

[Brian Sweeney]

Nikkor 8.5cm f2, wide-open, on the M8, used the 1.25x magnfier.

http://www.ziforums.com/picture.php?albumid=238&pictureid=2480

Pre-focused and waited for the moving subject to coincide in the viewfinder. "Triggered" on the skate, the point of focus. The sock provided a brighter point, it was dark.

[mgilbuena]

That is a good point; I was curious whether or not this lens may have been exhibiting focus shift. I was pretty certain I focused on the cat's nose, only to be surprised with the focus being on her back fur.

Since this is my first roll with both the M4-P body and the Nokton, I'll have to shoot more to familiarize myself more with the behavior of the lens and focusing quickly and accurately on a rangefinder.

I have 20/20 vision, but that still doesn't help in dim conditions :)

Presently, I am second-guessing whether or not something is in focus. "It looks to be in focus.. let me go a little past.. oh yeah now see? It's not in focus. Ok let's bring it back..." I've got to knock that off :).

Magnifier sounds interesting. Does this include all the framelines? Seems a bit pricey, though.

[dmr]

I've found that focusing with the RFs are much easier than with the SLR in low light.

I can usually find something lit enough to focus on.

[rodinal]

I always focus on the eyes, feline or human (Tri-X @f1.0)

[Calzone]

Magnifier sounds interesting. Does this include all the framelines? Seems a bit pricey, though.

On a M6 with 0.72 VF the Leica 1.40X magnifier works well with my 75 Lux, with a 50 I can still see the framelines, but I have to scan. I wear glasses BTW.

I bought the Leica 1.40X when it first came out. If I lost it I'd replace it right away because I own the 75 Lux. Using it with a fifty is a bonus. In other threads some Noctilux owners use the 1.25X which makes a 0.72 VF like a 0.9 VF. With my 1.4X my 0.72 VF becomes a 1.008 VF.

Another posibility is buy a M3. Buying a magnifier I believe is cheaper.

Cal

[ferider]

Although slower and counter intuitive, the 75/1.4 is much harder to focus than your 50/1.1. Much thinner DOF and shorter min. focus. I also use a 1.25x magnifier with my 75, or an M3 (preferably the latter). The magnifier gives you somehow "tunnel vision", not as nice to use as a straight M viewfinder - suddenly the M feels more like an SLR.

You should be able to use your 50/1.1 on your classic M without magnifier. I recommend to try a few more times with a different technique.

Note that bracketing in a real situation - when you shoot a person instead of a cat - is very useful anyways - I often find that my subject has closed his/her eyes at just the right time.

That being said, an M3 and the 50/1.1 must be a killer combo.

Roland.

[jsrockit]

It seems that people tend to focus first, then move around to compose. Wide open... you need to compose first, focus, then make sure you don't change the plane of focus by recomposing.

[Nikkor AIS]

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Leica-Summer-2010/83390032/899847017_qLB7f-L.jpg (http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Leica-Summer-2010/12254771_8PRNq#899847017_qLB7f-A-LB)


I agree with most of what has been said in this thread. Cats are excellent subjects upon which to practise photography, not to mention they know who is boss :p. And it's not us. I know some folks have a hard time with the rangefinder focusing patch but I just love it and have great success. I never miss an opportunity to shoot wide open with the Noct using 100/400 ASA so that stopping down is out of the question. Practice makes perfect. One thing I disagree with is the amount of depth of field when using fact wide open. IMO you nail the focus or you don't. Effectively there is no depth of field @ 1.0/1.2.

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Leica-Summer-2010/82810001/894100597_XhcgE-L.jpg (http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Leica-Summer-2010/12254771_8PRNq#894100597_XhcgE-A-LB)

Gregory

[ampguy]

First make sure your lens is focusing accurately wide open at min focus distance, this will require some tripod and measuring tests.

Then I like to focus on the ears or eye slits to get in the range, then for the final shot, you have to think about what you want in focus and do a final adjustment without moving your camera from the cat.

Eventually your cat will get used to you photographing them and will start to "pose" for you, keep some treats handy for when they pose well.

Focused on ears first, then smudged a bit to get nose and eyes in focus at min distance with 1.4, portra 800, 50/1.4 lux:

http://matsumura.smugmug.com/photos/902187280_oxXme-L.jpg

[ampguy]

Here's focus on the eyes, with 75/1.4 lux @1.4, 1/60th, cat is moving (slowly), and light is low, but having pre-focused on the ears, it was a short move to the eyes. I have a 1.25x magnifier, but don't use it, I do need proper diopter correction for my slight myopia though, that is much more important for me, than magnification.

If I am going to shoot for an extended period wide open at 1.4 or faster, I will probably put the magnifier on, as well as using proper diopter.

http://matsumura.smugmug.com/photos/902203094_UKtwR-L.jpg

[mgilbuena]

Loving all the felines on this thread :)

Taking your tips, I've gotten my second roll back. I am much happier with this result!

[heespharm]

put a piece of black tape (about the size of the smaller second window) in the middle of your viewfinder window... do this on the lens side of the camera...

what this does is allow you to see only what the second window (the window that projects it's image in the middle of ur rangefinder window) can see... try it out...

edit: here is a better explanation

http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-165.html

[porktaco]

Watch Out Because I'm About To Post All My Cat Pictures

[Nikkor AIS]

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Leica-M-System-Photos-1/97490018/727115586_vgyq4-M-3.jpg (http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Leica-M-System-Photos-1/10479961_xhuin#727115586_vgyq4-A-LB)

Thanks for the tip about the black tape; I'm going to try that.

Leica M3 with 50 1.0 Noctilux @ 1.0 on XP2 at 1/30 sec.


Gregory

[heespharm]

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Leica-M-System-Photos-1/97490018/727115586_vgyq4-M-3.jpg (http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Leica-M-System-Photos-1/10479961_xhuin#727115586_vgyq4-A-LB)

Thanks for the tip on the black tape Im going to try that.

Leica M3 with 50 1.0 Noctilux @1.0 on XP2 1/30 sec


gregory

makes me want to say "redrum redrum"

[Nikkor AIS]

That's funny, in the past I've gotten him to say that. Or rather, I've gotten his finger to say that :p. He has no idea of reference. He is really good at voice. And on a personal note, he just finished his first roll of film taken with a Nikon FM2 and a 50 1.8 Nikkor.

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-28-14-D-AF/AAC4569/901905807_8kSGZ-L.jpg (http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-28-14-D-AF/10927449_wfzxW#901905807_8kSGZ-A-LB)

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-28-14-D-AF/AAC4545/901903379_XpnoK-L.jpg (http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-28-14-D-AF/10927449_wfzxW#901903379_XpnoK-A-LB)

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-28-14-D-AF/AAC4553/901903991_V6EKo-L.jpg (http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-28-14-D-AF/10927449_wfzxW#901903991_V6EKo-A-LB)


http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-28-14-D-AF/AAC03813/863248450_MPVni-L.jpg (http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Nikkor-28-14-D-AF/10927449_wfzxW#863248450_MPVni-A-LB)


And he already has his eye on his dad's Leicas.

Gregory

[heespharm]

thats some beautiful stuff

[Nikkor AIS]

Thanks. I'm really proud of my little guy. This weekend he wants to use one of his dad's Leicas. I'm holding him back but it's only a matter of time.

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Leica-M-System-Photos-1/97450007/727151679_geEKt-M-3.jpg (http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Leica-M-System-Photos-1/10479961_xhuin#727151679_geEKt-A-LB)

Leica M3 50 1.0 Noctilux @ 1.0 at 1/30 second on XP2.

http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Leica-spring-2010/F1000016/847387079_jBzuf-L.jpg (http://rogaltacdesign.smugmug.com/Other/Leica-spring-2010/11925900_RbC45#847387079_jBzuf-A-LB)

Taken with Leica M7 and 50 1.0 Noctilux ISO 200 at 1/4 @ 1.0 hand held.

Gregory

[mgilbuena]

You shot the firefighters wide-open at f/1.0? How are you able to get such a great depth of field?

[ampguy]

and when all main subjects are equally unsharp, the image as a whole is perceived as equally sharp, if you can identify the scene as a whole, and it's not an abstract.

For example, rough paintings of common scenes aren't thought of as unsharp compared to a photograph.


You shot the firefighters wide-open at f/1.0? How are you able to get such a great depth of field?

[Nikkor AIS]

I'm going to go with the equally unsharp idea :rolleyes:.

Gregory

[mgilbuena]

Revisiting my old thread:

Yesterday I acquired a Leica M8. For the first time I was able to test the critical focus of the lens I used back when I first began rangefinder photography several months ago. As luck would have it, it has back-focus.

Aah, time to contact Adorama and hope they'll exchange the Nokton 50 1.1 with a working copy.

[atlcruiser]

I fight off and on with low light focus. I think practice is the trick.....

Here are some cats from Mallory Sq in Key West. It was almost dark. First shot is with the Fuji 645 with 800asa at F4 I think :), the next 2 are M8, shot using a CV 35/1.4 MC at 600ish ASA wide open.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4093/4937332679_debd7ace2d_b.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4937920836_8b3e16dc79_b.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4123/4937332717_a8dc084a11_b.jpg

[c.poulton]

Last week I managed to shoot in a very badly lit music club - pushed Tri-x 2 stops and shot with the 50 Heliar wide open at f2: pre-focused as best I could on an area of contrast and waited until the dancers came into focus. (Worked most of the time except for one shot, which although out of focus, I still like)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4073/4934050345_a72b051ba7.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/christianpoulton/4934050345/)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4140/4934644068_266671df57.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/christianpoulton/4934644068/)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4117/4934050635_3b95b25e23.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/christianpoulton/4934050635/)

[johnnygulliver]

I second the suggestions of the 1.4 eyepiece and to focus on the eyes not only a the most important motif, but if you are lucky, you can catch a highlight to focus on. With a cat you can't dither around, so rocking the camera to and fro around the point of focus is a good technique. With your M4 you have a better chance in low light as with almost any other camera.

[wgerrard]

It seems that people tend to focus first, then move around to compose. Wide open... you need to compose first, focus, then make sure you don't change the plane of focus by recomposing.

Seconded. It's easy to move or sway a few inches even when you think you are holding still.

Your own ability to see in low light has a lot to do with it, too.