View Full Version : I am about to chuck this !@#$ing tank.
Stephanie Brim
07-20-2005, 10:23
I did something I never should have done in the first place: I bought a cheap tank thinking that it would just be temporary. This was quite a while ago and I've been saying that I want to develop film for ages now. I'm finally going to get set to do it today. I decided to try working the film onto the spool in the light so that I would get used to it and that was slick as can be...getting it off, however, is proving not just hard but almost impossible without cutting it. I figured that I'd let you guys give me pointers before I actually cut the film off the spool into tiny little pieces. :P
What kind of tank and reels, plastic?
Stephanie Brim
07-20-2005, 10:30
Yeah, plastic. And cheap at that. I was stupid. It isn't even a brand that's known...it's just an off brand. Should have gone for the metal tank I think...this one is tiny, though.
oftheherd
07-20-2005, 10:31
What kind of tank, and more importantly, what kind of reel do you have? If a metal reel, it should come off the same way it went on. That is, squeeze the edges slightly so it will slip out from between the wires. I never used a plastic reel that much, since I found the metal reels easier to use, but I seem to remember they came out the same way. You might have to twist the film from side to side somewhat, but not much. Hope I have helped. If not, perhaps someothers will chime in and say it in a way that is more understandable. Don't let this small frustration bother you too much. It is a small speck of sand on the road to understanding.
Stephanie Brim
07-20-2005, 10:35
I am...dumb. Or at least I feel that way. I didn't twist it far enough. Blah.
Okay, I think I'm going to go for it. Now all I have to decide is if I want to use a one-off 1:1 solution or stock D76. It's at the right temperature.
Mmmm, wait, you're having problems to take the film OFF the spool ONCE it's correctly loaded, right ?
Not sure what kind of spools you have, but on mines, you can simply pop open them so they are separated in the top and bottom pieces, so you can simply pick up film...
Its gotta be plastic, there aint no such thing as a cheap stainless tank / reels. I've been using the Adorama house brand tank / reels, (patterson type) and it was frustrating at first, but I've found that pushing the film in rather than ratcheting it in works better. I just bought some stainless reels / tank and it's proving to be FAR more frustrating than plastic was.
Plastic reels you remove the film by taking the reel apart. They should twist about 90 degrees and you can just lift the film strip out. I try to be mindful of where the end of the film winds up relative to the ratchet ball - either an inch past or an inch before - this keeps it from creasing the wet film when you open the reel. If you bulk load it's all in the daylight exposed portion anyway, so you can just ignore it and clip it when you hang it to dry.
Stephanie Brim
07-20-2005, 10:42
I'm not using bulk rolled film unfortunately...I'm going to try soon since a guy can get me bulk rolls of Tri-X, T-Max and Pan-F, but I'm really wondering the best way to open the cartridges that are store bought. I've heard using a can opener works, but I don't know if I want to do it that way as I don't want to damage the film.
Steph, the 'beer glass bottle' opener (sorry, I don't know of a better name for it...) works pretty well (indeed the 'professional' film canister opener I've seen at photo stores is almost identical, only that 5x the price :)
With that one is also almost impossible to damage the film, but be careful with your fingers, if the opener slips from the canister it will end in your left thumb, don't ask me how I know... :_(
I've heard using a can opener works, but I don't know if I want to do it that way as I don't want to damage the film.
Yes, what Taffer said -- in some places in the States it's called a 'church key' (obscure historical humour I guess). It takes a fair bit of force when you're prying the edge. When you feel it give a little, then move to the opposite side of the canister and pry it up on that side. When you feel it lift, you can either keep prying until it comes off, or lift it off by hand. To get the film out, you may have to push it from the non-open side where the rewind rod is. The outermost film on the roll is blank so you are unlikely to damage any exposures by handling it. Just take a deep breath ...
Gene
Stephanie Brim
07-20-2005, 10:56
Ow. Good idea. I'll try that when I get into the bathroom to load the film.
Its gotta be plastic, there aint no such thing as a cheap stainless tank / reels. I've been using the Adorama house brand tank / reels, (patterson type) and it was frustrating at first, but I've found that pushing the film in rather than ratcheting it in works better. I just bought some stainless reels / tank and it's proving to be FAR more frustrating than plastic was.
Plastic reels you remove the film by taking the reel apart. They should twist about 90 degrees and you can just lift the film strip out. I try to be mindful of where the end of the film winds up relative to the ratchet ball - either an inch past or an inch before - this keeps it from creasing the wet film when you open the reel. If you bulk load it's all in the daylight exposed portion anyway, so you can just ignore it and clip it when you hang it to dry.
Ah but there is (were) cheap stainless reels. There were some made back in the 70s that were cheap knockoffs--looked fine but terrible to load. They had little imperfections in the wire than would catch the edge of the film. In some cases the reels weren't the same width all the way round. Haven't run across one for a long time.
bobofish
07-20-2005, 11:03
If it's a one-piece plastic spool, it's really not worth it to keep it, you'd be better off getting a Jobo, they are super easy to load, and to unload, you just unsnap the top and bottom parts of the spool, and the film just pops right out.
You've certainly got the right idea trying everything in the light first, nothing is worse than the frustration of having an important roll of film half loaded in a canister in the dark...you can't turn the light on, you can't figure out what to do, all you want to do is throw a Molotov cocktail at everybody that is pissing you off because your dang pictures are going to be ruined! (at least that's what I've felt before)
Even with store-bought film, I often use my thumbnail, with my other hand supporting the whole canister. Sometimes I need a little more leverage from my second thumbnail too. I find that using a can opener is not the most elegant way. Plus, if you use your thumbnail, you can reuse the canister, which is already DX coded. Be careful with your thumbnail though, don't torque it.
And as far as the spool goes, even on the most P.O.S. spools, it helps to put two fingers of one hand (fore- and thumb) on the very inside part of the film in the spool to guide it in or out, and work the film with your other hand. Very often all it takes either in or out is to slip the film back and forth with the inside fingers for a bit, and it sorts itself out.
Incidentally, I think that Jobo style spools are more efficient than stainless steel ones, partly because you can load a longer film onto them. (when you bulkload, you will start loading film in lengths that fit your style of shooting...depending on the canister and the film, you can put as few as 10 or as many as 50 exposures on a canister)
p.s. I forgot to mention that you should really get the cheap canister and spool, and burn them. Use it as an excuse to get rid of your weekly frustration, and as a reward, go out and buy a good canister, you can find one for as little as $10 at a shop, less on the 'bay.
Steph,
I've used the pastic re-usable cartridges instead of the metal jobs.
I load the film from the cartridge onto the spiral, I take the 'lid' off the cartridge in daylight when I'm finished. After all with the bulk film you'll loose the last frame that you'd get with bought stuff so you just cut it near the cartridge with scissors when spiral is full.
Good luck!
Stephanie Brim
07-20-2005, 11:34
My first roll is in the tank and I'm getting ready to develop it now. Let's hope that this works like I want it to...otherwise I'm going to need some more help. :D
OT: Stephanie -- That's interesting; you're from Iowa and you wrote "chuck." I was under the impression that this was only said in the Northeast, and that the rest of the country says "chunk." I've been "corrected" many a time for that in these parts.
anyways, good luck with developing your first!
Stephanie Brim
07-20-2005, 11:55
Okay...first roll has been developed, fixed, and is in the wash. I won't be able to get it scanned unless I can talk the boyfriend into heading to Wal-Mart tonight, so I'm guessing scanning is going to have to wait for a while. Blah. I'll make sure to at least tell you how it comes out. :)
Stephanie Brim
07-20-2005, 12:17
There's good news and bad news.
I had three rolls of T-Max, one of which I knew was blank. Guess which one I picked to develop this time?
The roll developed nicely, though, so now all I have to do is actually develop the right one this time. I think I'll do a roll of HP5 now.
bmattock
07-20-2005, 12:45
I'm not using bulk rolled film unfortunately...I'm going to try soon since a guy can get me bulk rolls of Tri-X, T-Max and Pan-F, but I'm really wondering the best way to open the cartridges that are store bought. I've heard using a can opener works, but I don't know if I want to do it that way as I don't want to damage the film.
I used to go through that. Now I just grab the fuzzy sticky-outy thing on the cartridge and rip it open. Not a he-man kinda thing, it's actually pretty easy. Both ends just fall off once you peel the thing like an orange.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
Mike Richards
07-20-2005, 12:55
Stephanie,
The secret of a stainless steel tank is not to pinch the film too much as you spin it on the reel -- just guide it. This is something I had forgotten from the time I first tried it 50 years ago (in Spencer, Iowa, by the way) until a few years ago when I rekindled my photography hobby. If you get a stainless reel, you can practice with a ruined film a few times with the lights on to see what I mean. I always have a church key and small scissors in the changing bag. After prying off the bottom lid of the cassette, I trim off the entire leader and cut a small triangle off the leading edges. This leaves a "D" edge just right to clip in the center of the reel.
I've tried plastic reels, and always have trouble cranking film onto them. You waste chemicals since the plastic tanks use a larger volume of liquid. Furthermore, if you ever use thicker films or ones with halation backing (e.g. Kodak HIE, Maco 820c infrared), there's no way to get them on to plastic reels. They go so far and then won't budge because of the friction.
Once you get the hang of stainless reels, handling, cleaning, drying, and storing them is quick and easy. You need to be careful not to bend the stainless reels. One short drop, and they can get so bent that it's difficult, if not impossible, to fix.
You're right -- chuck the plastic.
Well, I never had any problems getting HIE and IR820c onto my A&P plastic reels...
Roman (steel camera & plastic reel user... ;))
Stephanie Brim
07-20-2005, 13:50
The second roll is beautiful, at least by the look of the negatives. So far so good. I'm going to get addicted.
pshinkaw
07-20-2005, 14:00
Stepjanie:
Freestyle still sells a tank which uses the old style plastic apron (and extra aprons). It's a plastic strip with curly edges used to interleave the film and allow developer circulation. It's an Arista, and the basic design was old when I started developing back in the 1960's. It still works and is almost completlely fool proof albeit somewhat messier than stainless steel.
-Paul
Stephanie Brim
07-20-2005, 14:03
Hrm. It looks to me like I'm going to have the water spot on film problem...is there a good way to get rid of those after you've dried the film? Can you use the no-spot chemicals after it's already been dried?
Steph, the 'beer glass bottle' opener (sorry, I don't know of a better name for it...) works pretty well (
They're commonly called a "church key" and the rounded end works very well if the cassette isn't the "snap cap" type.
My local photo shop sells (or used to sell) "Lucky" film from China and they used cassettes that can be reloaded as the caps are not crimped in place. The other cassettes can also be used if the processor left a tongue of film sticking out of the felt lips to which the bulk film can be taped and then wound onto the spool.
Walker
Hi Steph. Congratulations on developing your own film! As for water spots, try using a few drops of PhotoFlow or a drop of ordinary dishwashing detergent (just one drop) in the final wash water. This decreases the surface tension of the water and allows it to slide off the film. If you still have water spots, which are dried mineral deposits from the wash water, you may have to use distilled water as your last wash. Good luck!
Wayne R. Scott
07-20-2005, 15:43
Steph,
To help remove water from your film:
Look for a cheap plastic "salad spinner". It is used for spinning lettuce to remove the water. After your final rinse in photoflow or dish soap take your roll of film still on the plastic spol and place it in the spinner and whirl away for a minute. Centrifugal force flings the water off of your film. :)
Wayne
Hrm. It looks to me like I'm going to have the water spot on film problem...is there a good way to get rid of those after you've dried the film? Can you use the no-spot chemicals after it's already been dried?
If they are 'real' water stops (drop-shaped whitish marks, from calcium in your water), they cannot be removed with water or photo-flo - you'll have to use something acidic - like the stop-bath you used for your film developing, or a solution of acetic acid (which you can also use as a one-shot replacement for stop bath - use a 2% solution); simply let the film sit for a few minutes in that stuff, and it will dissolve the calcium crystal deposits on your film; the wash the film like you would have done after fixing, use demineralized water for the final bath (you may add a drop or two of photo-flo or similar wetting agents - but don't overdo it or you'll get stains from the wetting agent - one to two drops per liter of water is literally enough!).
A trick that is very popular in Germany and Central Europe among amateur B&W photographers: use a salad spinner to spin off most of the remaining demineralized water - 1 min. of spinning, and almost all the water will be gone, so there's no chance of drying marks...
Roman
Ooops, Wayne beat me to explaining the salad spinner trick... ;)
Little Prince
07-20-2005, 17:40
Argh! I just did that a few weeks ago. First time using FX-39. I was a little excited. Out came an empty roll :bang: . Then realization dawned. I knew there was an empty roll (mid-roll rewind/switch thing) lying around somewhere mixed up with exposed ones.
Still to do my second (first real) roll with FX-39. But it will happen soon.
There's good news and bad news.
I had three rolls of T-Max, one of which I knew was blank. Guess which one I picked to develop this time?
The roll developed nicely, though, so now all I have to do is actually develop the right one this time. I think I'll do a roll of HP5 now.
Stephanie Brim
07-20-2005, 18:57
I got them back from the lab I had them scanned at and they're NICE. They developed perfectly. I even had a mishap; I developed a roll of color film in the chemicals and even those came out nice. Hopefully I'll be able to put some up tonight. :D
Mike Richards
07-21-2005, 05:47
Well, I never had any problems getting HIE and IR820c onto my A&P plastic reels...
Roman (steel camera & plastic reel user... ;))
Roman,
What's the trick with A&P reels? I bought a good quality plastic Jobo tank and reel, but when I feed a thick film onto the reel, it binds about halfway through.
I don't know what the 'trick' is - they just work for me; what I like about them are those broad 'lips' at the place where the film enters the reel, makes loading 120 film so much easier.
Unless I was not careful with getting the reels & my hands really try, I never have problems with binding films.
Roman
I'm about to chuck these steel reels through the window. I got it on once. Every other time it's been this horribly mangled gob of film on the reel. Why did I listen to you people?
Mike Richards
07-21-2005, 07:00
I'm about to chuck these steel reels through the window. I got it on once. Every other time it's been this horribly mangled gob of film on the reel. Why did I listen to you people?
Again, after you get the film started, try not squeezing the film as you roll it on the reel. Just hold the film loosely by the edges and guide it.
titrisol
07-21-2005, 08:07
1st try to rewind the film and leave the leader out (if you do it manually)
Or get a leader retreiver, those are prety inexpensive and work fine.
I used to pry the cartridges open by ripping the cartreidge open pulling the felt-side of it.... it's a lot easier than you'd expect!
I'm not using bulk rolled film unfortunately...I'm going to try soon since a guy can get me bulk rolls of Tri-X, T-Max and Pan-F, but I'm really wondering the best way to open the cartridges that are store bought. I've heard using a can opener works, but I don't know if I want to do it that way as I don't want to damage the film.
I'm about to chuck these steel reels through the window. I got it on once. Every other time it's been this horribly mangled gob of film on the reel. Why did I listen to you people?
First, what brand are the reels?
Second, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE... and it WILL become as easy as everyone told you it would. You ARE practicing with blank film, are you not?
Third, do you have anyone nearby that can demonstrate loading for you? My neighbor, George, called me one evening after he started developing his own B&W and I saw he was trying to spool the reels BACKWARD. I didn't think anything so simple could be so confusing but I guess if a mistake CAN be made it eventually WILL be made.
Persevere and it will all come together for you.
Tom
Nikkor, or at least the tank is and the reels were billed as such. I caught myself doing it backwards once - it's a lot sublter than plastic reels as to which way it winds.
Nikkor, or at least the tank is and the reels were billed as such. I caught myself doing it backwards once - it's a lot sublter than plastic reels as to which way it winds.
Well, it is not unheard of to have a Nikkor tank and off-brand reels. Especially if you bought them on eBay or someplace similar.
Check the reels and make sure they are not twisted or bent.
If the reels are in good shape, even generic reels, than practice will make things easy in time.
Tom
XAos,
do yourself a favor and get a nice cheap A&P tank, despite the propaganda ;) here, there's nothing as easy to load (admittedly, I've never tried a steel reel - but then, I've never felt the need to try something new, which would take learning and practicing, when everything worked perfectly with what I had) - you just have to make sure that the reel is 100% dry before loading, and films will almost load themselves...
The only time I ever had problems was with my very first 120 film, where I spooled the backing paper instead of the film onto the reel... Now I find it even easier to load 120 than 35mm films.
BTW, make sure you get the A&P reels with the broad 'lips' at the entrance point, they are just so much easier to load in the dark than the regular Paterson reels (which are also included in some A&P tanks, a I found out when visitng a camera shop in Barcelona with Oscar).
Roman
Furthermore, if you ever use thicker films or ones with halation backing (e.g. Kodak HIE, Maco 820c infrared), there's no way to get them on to plastic reels. They go so far and then won't budge because of the friction.
I assume you mean thinner films _without_ AH backing, right?
I've actually never had any issue loading HIE onto my plastic reels. But my "preferred" reels are easier to load than any other brand I've ever laid hands upon. They look like the samigon ones at BH, and the extra flange/loading lip thing makes them incredibly easy to load.
allan
I just dunked two rolls of 35 and a 120 in my reels. Adventuresome perhaps, but they seemed to load easily enough - I figured if I had problems it would be with dry reels and I could just transfer it to the plastic reels. ICCK - man this was bad. I had film stuck together resulting in huge silver deposits, mangled edges, and the like. It also pours VERY slowly. Interestingly enough, the roll of C-41 I dunked for experimentation did well (reel wise - the development results I wasn't that happy with) - which is what I'd been practicing with.
Tritisol - I may bring the reels if you're going to be there whenever we get the NC folks together.
Ok, I found some 16mm reels, they're kindermann and they came with the little kinderman loader. WOW. So THAT's the secret. I had wondered about them but hadn't heard much abou them, and they were a little pricey in 35mm. Magic. Will the kindermann loader work with other name brand steel reels? The center of the wire used to make the two faces is bent in a U and the U bends down from the plane of the faces to make a little ramp to get it started in the 16mm reels. My 35mm and 120 reels dont have that. (they're allegedly Nikor)
Ok, I found some 16mm reels, they're kindermann and they came with the little kinderman loader. WOW. So THAT's the secret. I had wondered about them but hadn't heard much abou them, and they were a little pricey in 35mm. Magic. Will the kindermann loader work with other name brand steel reels? The center of the wire used to make the two faces is bent in a U and the U bends down from the plane of the faces to make a little ramp to get it started in the 16mm reels. My 35mm and 120 reels dont have that. (they're allegedly Nikor)
I've never found it necessary to use a loader with stainless reels. Just another obstacle and I can probably load the reel as fast as someone can load the loader.
As for a Kindermann loader working with other reels.... I don't see why it would not provided the "other reels" have some method of firmly attaching the film to the reel core.
Personally, I wouldn't bother with the time/expense/trouble involved with a loader and just load manually as always. It REALLY is dead simple when you get the knack.
Tom
tetrisattack
08-18-2005, 08:57
I just wanted to chime in as another person who's using stainless steel to great effect, both 135 and 120. Once you "get" it, you'll be able to load the film in sixty seconds. There's a sound and a feel that a properly feediing reel makes, and it's like music to my ears.
Recently I've realized that the majority of problems while loading stainless steel stems from film that's not clipped in perfectly straight. If the film isn't loading straight, then it'll jump the track or crimp around the sprockets or worse. I stand while loading, hold the reel vertical, and let the film (still attached to the core) dangle straight down. Making sure the clip is centered is helpful, too.
I load 120, 220 and 35mm on stainless reels, without a loader, without clips, in a changing bag. When I started developing film again, after being away from it for 20 years, I tried loading plastic reels exactly once. Managed to hit the pumphouse in the park across the street with one throw. Got ss reels and tank and have lived happily ever after. I do not understand what the big deal is about loading wire reels. The only time I've ever had problems was with no name reels.
Another vote for stainless steel reels. I don't do a lot of film anymore (no more than four to eight rolls a month), but I have had no touble loading the Hewes reels in a 15" changing bag. In such a small bag it's a pain to load anything over 24 exposures, but with practice it can be done quite quickly.
phototone
08-18-2005, 10:46
Loading stainless steel reels is like riding a bicycle. Before you learn to ride, you wonder if it is even possible. Once you learn the "secret" it becomes second nature and you don't even think about it. It is subconcious.
Same thing with stainless steel spiral reels. It seems impossible until you train you mind and hands to do it. After a while your hands will be able to "see" everything right and you will just "know" when the film is going on the reel corrrectly and when it is cross-threaded. I can thread old somewhat bent-up reels just fine now. The "key" is to get the film clipped on the center spindle perfectlly lined up, if it starts good, it will wind good.
Take a reel, and a junk roll of film and practice sitting in your chair in the living room, loading over and over with your eyes closed. If you feel a snag, open your eyes and see what is the problem. Close your eyes when you attempt to fix the problem. Keep going, you will get it.
Stephanie Brim
08-18-2005, 11:02
My plastic reels are loading nicely now. I'm thinking about trying some Diafine today. :D
I've used a Jobo processor for about 10 years to develop my B&W 120 and 35mm films. Once I learned how to do it (load the film on the reel) correctly (which involved several wasted rolls) it's been easy every since. I use plastic reels, use a nail clipper to round the cut edges of film and ratchet load. I use a pair of pliers to open the film cassettes, grab the top or bottom and pull.
Steph: Just breathe... ;-) As others have pointed out and you've discovered, using a church key to open non-reusable cartridges is not a problem. I've never scratched a roll of film using a bottle opener.
I started out with Patterson (plastic) tanks and reels. I didn't like them. I switched to stainless steel (you use less solution as well) and after getting the hang of it, like them MUCH better. With the right technique, they almost load themselves. It is important to get good ones. The cheapies made in the 70s were, as mentioned, awful.
If you have trouble, the best thing is to find someone who knows how to use them and have them show you.
Trius
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