Your safe hand held speed for a 50mm?

[ulrich.von.lich]

What's your 50mm hand held speed for a non-blurred picture? (excluding the object blur)

Mine is between 1/15s and 1/30s. 1/8s is a bit of gambling. Is it normal? Because I think I can shoot as low as 1/15s with a SLR too.

Is there any trick to improve it? Pushups?

Cheers

[gcrawfo2]

1/15th is good for me too with an SLR, but I'm just getting into the film business so I can't really comment there.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I can do 1/15 too but that is a lot lower than most can do. The rule of thumb is that most people can handhold the speed closest to the focal length, so 1/60 for a 50mm lens, 1/30 for a 35mm, etc. It took practice for me to get good enough to do 1/15.

[Brian Sweeney]

Bracing the camera and holding breath is probably more important than pullups.

http://www.ziforums.com/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=730
1/4s and F1.5 here, Kodacolor 400.

[gliderbee]

This was at ISO 200, F3.8, 1/5th (Nikon D200). Good bracing, relax and controlling your breath goes a long way :)

http://home.scarlet.be/~sejmw/s_domino.JPG

[Juan Valdenebro]

One thing is getting a decent image: that changes from time to time, and that's why good handholders make more than one shot at the same speed... I have seen very decent ones between 1/2 and 1/15... And another thing is a speed that allows you to get all your lens can give... That's, at least for me, above 1/60...

Cheers,

Juan

[Uncle Bill]

depends on the camera body, I can get 1/5th of a second with my Leica M3 and 1/15 if I am shooting with a SLR be it a vertical copal shutter or a horizontal cloth or titanium shutter.

[edodo]

1/15 with the mirror clap is miracle!

[gliderbee]

What also helps is using a tabletop tripod, supported on your breast (I'm using an old one from Leica, all metal and very heavy, but VERY stable), but I'm not sure that counts in this tread ... This picture was taken that way (Nikon D200, 1/2s, F5, ISO 200; I didn't have a rangefinder in that period) :

Edit: I noticed it was taken with 12mm on a Nikon D200, so that's 18mm in full-frame; a bit too far from the tread subject maybe ..

http://home.scarlet.be/~sejmw/oslobynight.JPG

[Finder]

1/15 with the mirror clap is miracle!

Not really. The mirror has stopped moving by the time the shutter fires and the mass of the mirror compared with the body is small.

[Finder]

What's your 50mm hand held speed for a non-blurred picture? (excluding the object blur)

Mine is between 1/15s and 1/30s. 1/8s is a bit of gambling. Is it normal? Because I think I can shoot as low as 1/15s with a SLR too.

Is there any trick to improve it? Pushups?

Cheers

That seems to mirror my experience. I hold the camera with it resting in the palm of my left hand and both elbows tucked into my sides. For verticals, the shutter button is to the bottom so I can keep my elbows to the my sides--the "sky-hook" pose looks cool, but not very steady. I find caffeine can give me the shakes.

[batterytypehah!]

I have two words for you: leaf shutter. With a fifties or sixties camera that has some heft to it, I don't even worry about shake at all, down to 1/15. Below that I'll start to pay attention to my stance and breathing.

Later compact RFs are typically flimsier and also have that looong travel on the release, makes it a tad harder.

With the Leica I have shot 1/10 although with a 35 lens.

[buzzardkid]

Leica M6: 1/4 or 1/8: multiple shots, 1/15 two shots, anything above that is safe. With the M3 its 1/5 or 1/10 multiple shots, 1/25 two shots, anything above is safe.

Nikon F: 1/15 and two shots, nothing below. Anything above is safe in general, unless not had enough sleep and a busy day.

Leaf shutter: get a Konica Hexar AF! Had good results at 1/4 with that.

[rover]

With a 50 I can do 1/15s, but you can't control subject motion, so that is a stretch. 1/30s is a comfort zone....1/60s is the rule, and works.

[Sparrow]

I'll name that tune in ... ?

what he said ^

[Keith]

If I can find something to brace myself against 1/4 sec is feasible with an M ... particularly my M3 which has the smoothest shutter release of any camera I own!

I've shot my M8 at gallery openings in very low light at 1/4 and obtained usable images.

[Jodorowsky]

I know I'm safe with 1/8 with the M8...

[bmasonoh]

It's funny you ask. I was out shooting a couple months back and thought, "sure no problem I can handhold down to 1/30th or maybe even a little slower." Well, as it it turns out I can. However, the moving subject didn't agree :-)

[Steve M.]

A little soft, but the exposure was somewhere around 1 second, hand held, taken off the screen in a Portland movie theater w/ a Canon AE-1 w/ FD 50 1.4 about 20 years ago.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41465667@N06/4572404949/sizes/o/

[Benjamin Marks]

I think it also depends on how large you want to print/display the final image. And whether arresting motion is your goal. If the end result is going to be small, you can err a stop slower. Below is an image from a 15mm Heliar I took this afternoon at 1/20.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3350/4572405705_afa8b2b84a_o.jpg

Apologies for the poor color balance, I am migrating machines and the color on the new machine's monitor is pretty untrustworthy.

To answer the OP, I am confident with a 50 down to 1/30. After that, it is touch an go. With a DLSR, I have found that a burst of exposures at a low shutter speed usually yields something usable.

[raid]

1/15 is a good min speed.

[ruby.monkey]

Depends on the camera. 1/15 sounds about right with most of them; but with my Pentax 645N I usually figure anything at or faster than 1/10s with the 75mm f/2.8 is fair game.

[Fawley]

This is where fixed lens, leaf shutter RF's, really shine. I don't think twice about hand holding at 1/8. For focal plane shutters also go down to 1/8 if necessary and then a second one at 1/15. I make 1/15 my absolute minimum for soft shutter SLR's like my Nikon F and Minolta XK. And for the shutters that go clunk like a Minolta SRT 101, I go by the old focal length of the lense rule.

[mackigator]

I call friendly bs on a lot of these answers. The question was what is the safest speed for a hand held 50mm - not what you have sometimes gotten away with, or what speed you can shoot while bracing, or what speed you can shoot at a shorter focal length.

I have seen lots of shots (including my own) from slower speeds that look ok on the web or as small prints. But zoom in or print big and those 1/15th shots are not really sharp coming from the 50mm length. The closer you can be to 1/60th (or faster), the happier you'll be with the results.

But ok, I'll go 1/30th and claim some kind of sharpness.

I'm also curious about handheld ways to get the best possible chance at a usable shot. Squeeze it off, hold breath, elbows tucked in, stance that relies on my skeleton and not my muscles. What else?

[ZeissFan]

1/10 is my limit with a rangefinder. With an SLR, it's 1/15.

[tmfabian]

..., but you can't control subject motion, ...

Most important observation of this thread.

If it's sitting still, may as well use a tripod if you have one handy (i know tripods are a bit anti-RF philosophy) But yeah, subject motion is more often, for me at least, the issue with slower shutter speeds than how long of an exposure I can get away with that still looks 'acceptably' sharp.

[Richard G]

A 1/2 second worked well for me once with immobile subjects and me seated with my head against a rest. I regularly go for 1/4 or 1/8 and totally comfortable at 1/15s. The M2 is much better than the M6. Because of the M6's meter, the first part of the shutter button travel is to activate that, so the button doesn't trip the shutter until way down in its travel. Maybe if I only had this camera I would improve, but the M2 shutter fires half way down the travel, and that is much better. With the M2, and non-metered Ms (My M4 and M4-2 were the same), you can squeeze the shutter button without reaching the bottom of the button's travel, and that is very important for the very slow shots like 1/4 and 1/2. Using the old leather half case improves the hand held slow shot too, but I never use it now. If I was going to a nightclub or other concert I think I would take it along. I agree with the Leitz table-top tripod as a chest pod, but it's pretty cramped with the small ball head which is all I have.

[gliderbee]

I'm also curious about handheld ways to get the best possible chance at a usable shot. Squeeze it off, hold breath, elbows tucked in, stance that relies on my skeleton and not my muscles.

Do a conscious effort to really relax all muscles (including a tight ass).

If the OP wants some exercise: no push-ups; go pistolshooting; airpistols on 10m in particular (e.g. Steyer LP10) are great for learning to relax and get a steady hand.

[xxloverxx]

Down to 1/10th if I brace myself, legs apart and slightly bent, take a few deep breaths, exhale, wait ~2 seconds and gently squeeze the shutter.

So a bit of my martial arts education (stance, adapted), yoga (breathing) and laziness (resting my elbows) combined :)

[SimonSawSunlight]

1/15-1/8 for me as well.
the 50mm on my mamiya 6 is a different thing though, I've managed 1 full second handheld with very acceptable results!

[Turtle]

This is a subject that is always tinged by the desire of some to exaggerate their prowess and others understate their low standards. It seems to be 'the thing to do to show you are a real RF street shooter.' This is not directed against those in this thread, but against what I feel is a subject often distorted by tall tales or at least a lack of objective truth telling. Did I tell you how big that fish was?

While you can hand hold at very low speeds, some or more of the following usually apply:

You can't do it every time, so it is not reliable. I like reliable when special things unfold in front of my camera.
The results are invariably less sharp than a faster speed.
It depends on how large you print
It depends on your standards.
It depends on the subject suitability.

I believe that while shooting at very low speeds can be useful, it is far less useful than some might think. If I need to be sure I get the shot, I will shoot with faster film. I'd rather have more grain and a sharp shot. And people move.

Certainly the impression that many RF shooters can walk around gaily shooting unbraced 1/4-1/15 with their 50mm lens, or even a 28, and come back with a good quality roll of shots (unless they are shooting buildings while leaning against another) is not realistic, but reading some threads you'd think that you have a problem if you are not able to do this while riding a unicycle with a spiky seat. Invariably the images shown to prove this are frequently dull even when they are 'sharp enough.'

Here is something that many of you will laugh at, but I an confident holds true for most people shooting under real world rather than test conditions:

1/focal length is pretty good minimum for use under controlled conditions, unbraced, but still taking care not to pull your shots. Slower than this and you can get sharp shots, but less often the slower you go and even the best are not as sharp as at higher speeds once you dip two or more stops slower.

If you are working quickly and I mean taking snap shots, working under physically demanding conditions, or on edge, or excited, or scared, or working in the heat or real cold, or (insert anything else that can make it hard to hold steady) i.e. the real conditions under which many of the best street/docum/reportage photos are taken, you should be looking at twice as fast as 1/focal length to be sure you still get good frames even when concentrating. Minimum.

Some people are steadier than others, but when doing documentary work I do not dip below the above rule unless I am braced or am working sedately. I work at 1/FL when things are smoooooth. I work at twice this exposure (i.e. 1/15th with a 35mm) only when braced, or squatting, kneeling with shoulder against wall etc, only when everything has slowed to a very controlled pace and only then when I absolutely have to.

PS If using a camera that allows you to leave the film leader out (including Leica M by feel) then all it takes is to change to faster film not to risk blurry shots.

[SimonSawSunlight]

This is a subject that is always tinged by the desire of some to exaggerate their prowess and others understate their low standards. It seems to be 'the thing to do to show you are a real RF street shooter.' This is not directed against those in this thread, but against what I feel is a subject often distorted by tall tales or at least a lack of objective truth telling. Did I tell you how big that fish was?


BS (sorry, no offense) - or at least OT. he asked, we answered. there is no sense in exaggerating here, because holding still has absolutely nothing to do with good photography, and I think we're all aware of that (and the question wasn't about how to get the best street/reportage shots, but photography in general).

though it can come in handy, I just shot the 'walpurgisnacht' on the kreuzberg in berlin. very dark, full with people and police, stressful. a tripod is of no use here, the only way for me to go was iso 1600-3200, 35mm f1.2 and mostly 1/8-1/15s. the subjects' movement was hard enuogh to handle as it required to really concentrate on the timing, so I was glad I can handhold that. of COURSE, it still doesn't mean that the shots would come out great.
really, no big talk here.

[Richard G]

Well said Turtle. But still it's interesting when you think of the shots that you might not even attempt if you don't have that spare roll of Neopan. I never thought of even trying less than 1/60 with my 135 but by analogy with what's possible with a 50, I might just get something useable, if pressed, at 1/30s. At least I'll try. Bill Pierce's chapter in the Leica Manual advises learning to pick when the action stops, when someone is giving a speech or a musician is playing....all these little details are just enlarging one's repertoire of skills. Out on the street I hate anything longer than 1/250 if I can help it.

[gliderbee]

But still it's interesting when you think of the shots that you might not even attempt if you don't have that spare roll of Neopan.

This is (IMHO) the essence of the thing.

If you have the "choice" between "shoot at 1/4s" or "no picture", I'll try to take the picture, each and every time. Only THEN, time permitting, I might change film if I have another film with me and if I'm not confident the picture I already took will be ok, but FIRST: taking the picture; all the rest when time permits.

One of the main advantages of digital (again, my opinion) is the ease to change iso and to not have to choose between color or B/W.

[SimonSawSunlight]

Out on the street I hate anything longer than 1/250 if I can help it.

agreed, longer than 1/250 usally bothers me in the streets, no matter how long or not I might be able to handhold.

[ferider]

If 1/15th is safe, I wonder why we all invest in these expensive lenses :rolleyes: Ahh, I forgot, must be for the bokeh.

Seriously, it completely depends on what you want to shoot. As much as possible, I try not to go below 1/250.

Roland.

[Turtle]

Simon,

I was certainly not knocking the OP at all... but would argue against the idea that 'holding the camera still [enough] has nothing to do with good photography.' Being able to hold the camera still enough has a lot to do with good photography of all varieties, or at least being able to control/predict whether you have held it still or not. There is a huge difference between thinking that you might get a sharp frame at X speed rather than knowing you will at another. This is all I am trying to challenge here - the lottery approach - because this is what very slow speed shooting is, but often it is presented as something that can be controlled rather more than is perhaps the case. Thats fine when you are playing about and results don't count, but it is suicide when you need to know you have nailed the shot. Heaven knows there are enough factors out there to steal if from you anyway! On the flip side if you want blurry shots, its a good idea not to shoot in the 'maybe zone' where you might end up with a sharp one!!!! Once again, its about being able to get the result you want, not that I am averse to accepting lucky results when I get it all wrong!

I am talking from a street/reportage perspective, but when shooting landscapes or still life, I will use a tripod and so will most people.

Just trawl the net and see how many threads have people commenting that they routinely get pin sharp frames at 1/4 to 1/8 with their 50mm hand held... as if it is like drawing breath. Now thats BS.

Gliderbee,

This is why I rarely shoot 100-125 films hand held any more even in 35mm, unless I know it will be bright the whole time, everywhere I will shoot. I lost too many good shots to slight camera shake from cutting it too fine or finding the shot appeared in the darkest conceivable place on an otherwise sunny day! Simple things like your foot not having good purchase causing a slight wobble at the moment of a great shot... or wind picking up from nowhere and rocking you gently. I'd rather have the grain penalty and more predictable results.

Like anyone, I will try the shot rather than not, but generally a bit of planning helps no end. I do wonder about people who wander about shooting alleys or back streets with their standard 100 speed film loaded and then talk about all these frames they shot at 1/4s.

Having some fast film on you in a pocket is no bother as is removing a roll of slow film part thru and replacing it with something faster when the clouds roll in. Choose a suitable pause in the action. You lose fewer frames doing this than you gain by not taking that pause to prepare for your shooting environment. Digital is of course very much better here.

[SimonSawSunlight]

Simon,

I was certainly not knocking the OP at all... but would argue against the idea that 'holding the camera still [enough] has nothing to do with good photography.' Being able to hold the camera still enough has a lot to do with good photography of all varieties, or at least being able to control/predict whether you have held it still or not.


of course, don't get me wrong, I didn't mean that it has got nothing to do with good photography, but rather that it doesn't automatically make you a good photographer. my formulation was a bit clumsy, sorry.


Just trawl the net and see how many threads have people commenting that they routinely get pin sharp frames at 1/4 to 1/8 with their 50mm hand held... as if it is like drawing breath. Now thats BS.


true. but, given the subject (or the ground the photographer stands on) is not moving, I don't think people are just trying to show off when they say they can safely hold 1/8s with a 50mm (but there certainly are some/enough that do). I think I do and if I'm not sure, I take a second one, one of them will be sharp enough.
with my M's there's 4 different types of shutter speeds for me:
fast (1/1000 - 1/250)
medium (1/125-1/50)
slow (1/30-1/8)
very slow (1/4-1)
all 'very slow' times are pure gamble.

the problem is, and you're right about that too, that there are thousands and thousands of possible situations where you absolutely can't be sure you nailed it at 1/8s or 1/15s even, and our mighty cool handholding ability will help zero in one of these. everyone stating the opposite in this kind of situation is probably just waving his oh-so big balls from his balcony, indeed.
:)

[kossi008]

As has been said before, it's all a matter of statistics and standards.

If I want *reliable* 50 mm shots, I go for 1/125 or faster, or use a monopod/tripod.

I can play the shot lottery down to about 1/15. My trick for bracing is not to stop breathing, but relax, breathe easily, and release the shutter at the still-stand between inhaling and exhaling, thus minimizing the accompanying involuntary body movement...

Below 1/15, I seldom find a shot that satisfies my quality standards. I'll still try, but I'm very rarely happy with the results. Usually, these are just the kind of decisive-moment pictures you can't take twice, either. Damn.

PS: One advantage to the Rangefinder here, though: At least, I will always have some inkling as to whether I nailed it or blew it, as the viewfinder doesn't get dark at the decisive moment, as it does with SLRs...

[batterytypehah!]

Seeing as this has devolved into darn near a pi55ing contest, I wanna see you guys reliably swapping to a faster film in the field with a Barnack :D Or even a Contax.

Bring a second body, for Pete's sake.

Me, I hate hate HATE switching mid-roll. Maybe with more practice I'd get good enough at it but in the process I'd be losing more shots due to frame overlap and additional scratch risk than it's worth.

I grew up shooting nothing but Fujichrome 100 in my dad's old Vito CL. Great education. I am not afraid to scale focus, and I learned to hold it steady. Because with a 1:3.5 lens and 100 speed film, it was either that or miss the shot.

[odin626]

safe for me is 1/60, but I try to keep it above 1/90. I'm twitchy as hell :)

[umcelinho]

depends a lot on aperture as well... I've taken half second shots with my M6 @ f1.5 (50mm) and f1.4 (35mm) and got good results. no bracing.

do as the archers do... hold your breath, click between heartbeats ;)

[Turtle]

As a related aside, a while back I did some tests with a monopod and a Mamiya 7 shot at various speeds compared against the same frame shot hand held at 1/500th and also 1/FL (using a 65mm, so 1/60th) and found that I could go one stop slower than 1/FL every time and guarantee a frame as sharp as 1/FL hand held, but this was taking care and in controlled conditions. At another stop slower still (1/15) some of the frames were indistinguishable from 1/60, but some were soft. So overall, I got a 1 stop guaranteed advantage with two stops if I can shoot multiples of the same frame.

A very good monopod can be had for relatively little and I slip mine down the side of my belt when not in use (travel type application). Very handy when speeds dip one stop below the ideal for handheld. Not ideal for some scenarios of course.

[zerobuttons]

What's your 50mm hand held speed for a non-blurred picture? (excluding the object blur)
.....

Object blur cannot be excluded in most cases where I have the need for going to shutter speeds slower than 1/60s, since it is almost situations where I have to capture people in available light.

I believe that this is very much about technique, practice and being reasonably fit.

[Luddite Frank]

When my Dad began to let me shoot his Nikon S ( only under his direct supervision ), I was about six years old. At that time, Dad always told me to keep the shutter-speed above 1/30.

Most literature I was reading in my youth ( various camera pamphlets and photo books) suggested nothing slower than 1/50 - 1/60 for hand-held.

Then 20 years passed when I read little to nothing about photography, and took relatively few pics.

The bug bit me again about five years ago, and now in early middle-age, I'm doing a lot of serious reading about photography ( analog.).

I recently discovered the "rule" about using the fractional inverse of the lens's focal legnth as the slowest recommended shutter-speed for hand-held: 1/50 for 50mm lens, 1/100 for 90mm, etc.

This seems to be a good rule of thumb for shooting on the go.

I often cheat and wind-up shooting down to 1/30 or even 1/20 with my 35mm lenses, but know that I'm pushing the envelope.

I go on the premise that shooting 50 mm below 1/30 is a crap-shoot.

I was really startled by how unsteady my hands/body were the first time I put a fast 135mm lens on my Pentax Spotmatic... I thought I had suddenly developed the DT's ! :eek::o

Then there are way too many occasions when I feel I need to grab a shot when there's "no light", I have slow fillm (ASA 200), slow lenses ,etc, and no tripod. So, I give it a try... I've shot 1/20, 1/10, 1/8 with my Leica III... the results are usually blurry... :(

Luddite Frank

[Juan Valdenebro]

I've got blurred images at 1/250 with a 15mm! I thought I could shoot that focal length without caring too much about being still... After all 36 shots blurred on my roll, I learned the lesson... Being REALLY STILL is so important, and that's why best photographers have always talked about it... I prefer losing shadow detail (pushing) instead of shooting below 1/60...

Cheers,

Juan

[paulfish4570]

A neurological condition holds me to 1/30 with a rangefinder on a good day with little coffee, seated or otherwise braced. But most days, 1/60, again, seated, on my side, or otherwise braced. I prefer 1/125 or faster. This is why I tend to use 200 and 400 asa films. In standard posture for a rangefinder or SLR, my right thumb vibrates. I often have to hold the right side of the camera body with the heel of my thumb rather than the thumb itself to dampen the hold. And the harder I concentrate, the more apt my hands are to shake. Got to stay loose. Oh, to be young again ... :)

[payasam]

With a normal or wide lens, 1/8 sec. is generally safe but 1/4 sec. can be tricky. In both, subject movement is a danger. When possible, I try to put my elbows on something firm -- even my own knees -- or to lean against a wall or a table. These things are true of M Leicas and were true of film SLRs. I am not so steady with digital SLRs and screw Leicas.

[ulrich.von.lich]

Hi, thanks for the inputs everyone!

I do a lot of low-light shootings. My camera is set at ISO1600 or above for most of time. I have a relatively fast lens, but I want my images to have enough DOF. That being said, I usually set the slowest possible shutter speed then adjust the aperture to the light. I'd increase the shutter speed once the aperture is about ok, but it's often not narrow enough. It may sound a little weird as many people seem to like a completed out-of-focus background.

When I said a blurred picture I meant a picture that is blurred regardless the printing size (or from the standard family picture size to infinite).

I'm still new to rangefinder. I was told the lack of mirror would lead to the greater hand held stability. After around 30 rolls of film, honestly I don't see much of a difference. The mirror in my OM4 must have been very gentle.

One reason I started the thread because I thought there were ways to challenge the rule of thumb. For example once I read an article on a DSLR website which tells you how to take advantage of the camera neck strap, with illustrations of standing and holding positions etc. Unfortunately I don't use the neck strap.

However I see some people put a small cap on the shutter button (called softie?) which they say would make the camera more stable. Does anyone use it and can share the experience?

In the meantime, I'd look to see if there's any yoga or pistolshooting lessons.

Thanks again.

Cheers

[Roger Hicks]

As has been said before, it's all a matter of statistics and standards.

If I want *reliable* 50 mm shots, I go for 1/125 or faster, or use a monopod/tripod.
...

Exactly. And indeed, if you're cold and tired and hungry and have just run up a flight of stairs, 1/500 might not be enough. If you're well fed and comfortable and can brace your elbows on a table, you might be OK at 1/5.

Too much depends on what's 'OK'. 'Test target OK' would be the same number of lp/mm as you'd get with a tripod, and for that, I'd not consider less than 1/125, and I'd prefer 1/250. I might be nearly as good at 1/60 or even 1/30, but I know that if I were shooting a test target, I'd lose sharpness.

The thing is, comparing hand-held shots with test targets shot using a tripod is completely meaningless. I've got a few pics I really like that were shot at 1 and 1/2 second with a 50mm, rather more at 1/4, and plenty at 1/8 and 1/15. Some of them are blurry as hell, but so what? If you don't play, you can't win. My rule of thumb is 'try it'.

Answering the OP, I'd also say that in my experience, tricks with straps and softies are psychological: either they work because you think they're working, or you think that they work because you see what you want to see.

Cheers,

R.

[thegman]

I think Fujifilm did a survey, and concluded that most people could hold steady 1/30, but not below. Obviously some people can do better, and some worse, but 1/30 sounds reasonable to me, particularly as some shots need to be taken quickly, and there is no time for breathing exercises or bracing against something.

[ferider]

However I see some people put a small cap on the shutter button (called softie?) which they say would make the camera more stable. Does anyone use it and can share the experience?

In the meantime, I'd look to see if there's any yoga or pistolshooting lessons.

A softie helps; an elbow on your chest helps; a mini-pod or bracing to a wall or both helps more. Also, avoiding the shutter button alltogether and using the self-timer is good, too, if you are not looking for an instantaneous shot. You can also attach a thread to your camera tripod mount, step on it, and hold the thread under tension .....

The pistol shooting stuff goes like this: before shooting, breathe in very deeply a couple of times. Then, breathe in and out slowly, and while you breathe out, push the shutter button.



Remember however, a faster lens, faster film and bracketing have usually more impact :) And, a shot at 1/15 will always be less sharp than 1/250, unless shot on a steady tripod.

Roland.

[Roger Hicks]

A softie helps; an elbow on your chest helps; a mini-pod or bracing to a wall or both helps more. Also, avoiding the shutter button alltogether and using the self-timer is good, too, if you are not looking for an instantaneous shot. You can also attach a thread to your camera tripod mount, step on it, and hold the thread under tension .....

Roland.

Dear Roland,

While I completely agree about the minipod and the wall, I completely disagree about the others for me. Softies have no effect at all, except adding to the bulk of the camera and making it less comfortable to use; any way of putting any elbows on my chest is less comfortable and therefore more shake-prone; using the self timer for a hand-held shot completely destroys my normal technique, whch depends on knowng when the camera is going to fire (the slow exhalation/pistol-shooting method); and the piece-of-string method again makes things worse. All, I repeat, for me.

This is not to say that either of us or right or wrong. Obviously you wouldn't say they work for you, if they didn't. But equally, they are either neutral or make things worse as far as I am concerned. Which of us the OP may take after is necessarily a mater of (very cheap!) experiment for him; but if they don't work, it doesn't necessarily mean he's doing them wrong.

Cheers,

R.

[SimonSawSunlight]

I pretty much always use a softie. it makes using the camera more comfortable for me, therefore it does help. but that's just me, ymmv.

[ferider]

It's a funny thing about the softie, Roger: using it caused me to change my technique, using the finger joint instead of tip to push the shutter button. That did help in reducing shake. Now that I'm used to the new technique, I use it without softie, too, with the same effect. Still, I prefer the feel of the softie.

Note that none of my suggestions are my inventions, just stuff I found to work for others, tried and confirmed that they are working for me. Regarding elbow (or mini-pod) on chest, and self release, these are actually described in old Leica literature :)

But I agree with you - it's all quite personal, and what works for me might not work for others - best way is to try and see.

Roland.

[dmr]

I've found that I can almost always successfully hand-hold at 1/60, usually at 1/30 but I'll do a few frames just to be sure, and sometimes at 1/15 if I really concentrate and I'll always do a few to several frames at that speed.

I've found that bracing against something solid (lamp post, newspaper box) helps. Elbows on some solid surface really helps!

[Roberto V.]

With an SLR my safe limit is 1/15, but I still shoot at 1/8 when I need it. 1/4 is kinda pushing it.

[Fawley]

i've been away for a couple of days since making my earlier post and I find this thread has taken on a life of its own. To the doubters of hand held shots at 1/8 etc., I can only say that sure I would love it if I could always be at 1/125 and not have to worry, but a lot of the time its just not going to happen. If you are not finding yourself having to shoot at 1/8 or 1/15, then you're not doing too much shooting indoors with available light even at EI 800. Sure I have some shots that aren't razor sharp but I got the shot. I also have some where I think I would have to make a close side by side inspection of two prints to tell the difference between fast shutter and slow shutter. At this point, I think its just splitting hairs. And by the way, whats a softie?

[dmr]

And by the way, whats a softie?

Soft release. Now being discussed on another thread. In my not so humble opinion, it doesn't hurt, but gives you maybe 1/2 stop advantage at most.

[DNG]

With my DSLR....Ummmm my smallest lens is a 55mm MF Takumar...With "SR" on, and properly braced and not breathing...I have done 1/8. With my M5, Ummm, Got to see what I can do with that f/1.1 Nokton.

[furcafe]

Sounds normal to me.

For true handholding, i.e., standing without any support whatsoever, I can go as low as 1/4th sec. if I prepare myself, use marksmanship techniques like controlling breathing, etc., but the hit rate goes way down (say 25% v. 60-75% for 1/8th or 1/15th sec.).

As you recognize & others have pointed out, it's all pretty academic if you're shooting anything moving. In my experience, I usually need @ least 1/15th sec. to reliably freeze people in conversation, & that hardly counts as action photography.

As far as RFs v. SLRs, I think that's mostly a matter of personal taste. If you can hold 1 steady, you should be able to hold the other. I prefer RFs not because SLRs vibrate too much (even the vintage SLRs I use aren't that bad), but because I find mirror blackout to be disconcerting, especially as it gets longer w/slower exposures. For that reason, shooting SLRs in daylight is less of a problem for me (though if I haven't used 1 in a while I'll occasionally flinch on the 1st shot or 2 until I get used to the blackout! :p ).

As far as improving one's handholding techniques, I have little to add to what others have already posted. I clearly agree w/those suggesting marksman-type techniques as there is an obvious parallel (this goes for shooting moving subjects, too). I do find it easier to hold steady a camera that has a certain minimum mass, e.g., a Leica M v. a Barnack (screw-mount) body, so perhaps curls may be better than pushups!

What's your 50mm hand held speed for a non-blurred picture? (excluding the object blur)

Mine is between 1/15s and 1/30s. 1/8s is a bit of gambling. Is it normal? Because I think I can shoot as low as 1/15s with a SLR too.

Is there any trick to improve it? Pushups?

Cheers

[paulfish4570]

"If you're well fed"

Excellent point.

[john_van_v]

SLR or RF?

With my Kodak c875, I am good to 1/8th if I have a few tries. Needless to say there is no mirror slap.

My Yashica Lynx 14 has very little vibration, so I imagine it would do about the same, though I have yet to use it enough to remember the speeds.

I really think that SLRs are limited to a 30th. My Yashica Electro X feels like low vibration, and my Nikon FM feels like high vibration.

But because I use an f1.2 Nikkor lens, the FM usually goes out at night.

What people aren't mentioning here is motion by people at night. That requires good following rather than standing still.

[Lauffray]

I'm confident shooting at 1/30, I've done it so many times before I know exactly what to do to have it decently sharp. Just made one at 1/12 a couple of days ago, crossing my fingers for that one

[Pirate]

1/60th is as slow as I have been able to go with a 50mm lens. As mentioned before, any slower and you'll need a couple shots in the hopes that one of them will come out sharp.

[Ranchu]

I don't like to go below 1/30th with a RF, generally. 1/60th with an SLR to avoid the mirror vibration, this is without stabilization. The most limiting factor for me is the disappearance of resistance in the shutter button as the shutter is released. Half the time the camera will move, half not. I haven't found a soft release to make much difference for me, but they are more comfortable.

I like coffee too.

[bgb]

Must be old age but i would never consider hand holding at slow speeds unless there was no other alternative (like a tree of lamp post) and the shot was worth the risk. Even a mini tripod is worth using when the speeds drop
Maybe 125 or 60 with the slr and 60 or 30 with the rangefinder.
Would also depend on your physical condition if i had just climbed a hill to get a shot there is no way i would try to hold a camera at any speed .. too busy gasping for breath
:)

[pvdhaar]

I find that when I'm standing comfortably, I can regularly get good shots at 1/8th. My DSLR is even somewhat better than my RF around this shutter speed due to the slow speed gear train kicking in on the latter.

The big problem is that comfortably standing rarely makes for good pictures. The perspective is almost always better from somewhat lower when I bend my knees. And then, because of the sometimes awkward position, it's very difficult to keep the camera absolutely still and I need at least 1/125.

[kitaanat]

1/8 - 1/15 are safe for me. I have a project about the movement and that made me shoot at as lower speed as possible. At 1/8 can be hand held or some time with support such as wall, tree or hand rail.

[-doomed-]

I like coffee too.
Caffeine, the fuel and enemy of many photogs. I personally down plenty of caffeinated substances like water and can usually manage around 1/8th with support or 1/15th unsupported, but as you mentioned 1/30th seems to be the sharpest of the three I mentioned. Leaf shutter fixed lense RF's have been my best slow speed handhelds.

[palec]

1/250 or better 1/500, sometimes I take the risk with 1/60. I don't feel comfortable with 1/30 or 1/15 (last resort), slower speeds only with camera on table or something flat preferably with self-timer.

I don't feel comfortable with 1/1000 either as it's not 1/1000 with mechanical M and during this winter the shutter curtain brake caused me a lot of trouble with M6 at this speed.

[kshapero]

On a Leica M with a mini soft release, 1/5 is a safe bet.

[funkpilz]

1/60, I'm an amateur with shakey hands. I'm a bit too scared to try anything below that.

[elmer3.5]

Hi,

Sometimes 1/4 only on a III-F, for the others 1/8 is rather sure.
To get slower than 1/15 i use other techniques as breathing and body rythm, etc.
The best is the III type leica, then m6, with ZI and M8 i cannot go that slow.
When i had only the elmar 50/3.5 i learned a lot getting pics very slowly.

Bye.

[jaredangle]

Generally at 1/30 I consider myself to have a good success rate with an SLR, 1/15 and 1/8 are fine too but I will find something to brace myself on, and if I can't, I will sit down cross-legged and brace my elbows against my knees, or lay down if it still gives me the proper perspective.

For a leaf shuttered rangefinder like the Mamiya 7, I've been comfortable with 1/8 and 1/4.

[Bill Harrison]

A good reference is in Barry Thorntons "Edge of Darkness" pg 65. No one is a human tripod. I find repeatability important, that means 1/250th, 50mm lens & 11x14 print. For every step down in focal length or pic size from 11x14, a step slower in speed is OK. So an 8x10 with a 28 would be 1/30th. Likewise in the other direction. If I'm looking for a 16x20 with a 90mm, it's 1/1000 sec..... These are minimums for me with Leica, extra care with Nikon F. If the "God of Art" is with me, shooting at any speed is OK but not with an expectation of sharp.