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Hi Tom, You shoot more b/w film than anyone else I know so maybe you can answer this because I can't find a definitive answer from searching. I am in Hong Kong and in the summer the water out of the tap can get pretty warm. For film processing I can use ice and keep the small tank in a tub of cool water to stabilize the temperture at 68 degrees but what about the wash? The tap here can get over 85 degrees. Will this be a problem? Thanks, Ray
raytoei@gmail.com
04-18-2010, 23:55
Two Rays looking at the same issue.
I was just on the phone 2 days ago with Greg Mironchuk, on his web-site he wrote this (http://www.mironchuk.com/HC-110.html):
"Wash water MUST be kept at the same temperature as the developer, water stop, and fixer. If you wash in water at "tap temperature"... which is usually around 20 degrees cooler than developer temps... you will suddenly contract the thin gelatin emulsion, and that will cause grain clumping. If you want the finest grain available in a modern film... then temper your wash water."
So the question was what if the tap water was warmer than the developer environment ?
I called (http://www.mironchuk.com/front.html)and he said that warmer water could cause reticulation and increase the grain.
That's a plausible explanation but it didn't solve my immediate problem of HC-110 & Dilution H causing lots of hugh grains in Legacy Pro 400, more so than Arista Premium 400.
raytoei
Not just two rays but two ray t's. I noticed there was a problem when I noticed a loss of tonality and increase in grain. I couldn't guarantee constant and accurate 68 degrees for the entire 14 minutes so thought that might have been the error. I under developed in my bid to compensate but I should try harder to avoid slop and maintain some quality control. I guess either I send the film out for the summer or I will shoot C41.
While we are waiting for Tom: I have a similar problem in mid-summer, and my solution is to cool three litres of water in jugs by adding ice. That gives me enough water for washing the film using the Ilford method (fill, invert x5; fill, invert x 10; fill, invert x 20). It seems to work fine.
Interesting stuff on this thread. I was never aware that inconsistent temperatures for wash water had such a large effect on the negatives. I admit when I wash my negatives I don't really pay attention to the temperature of the water out of sheer laziness. Similar to Rayt, some of my images are quite flat and have lots of grain, which I had attributed to the quality loss experienced when scanning film. I don't mind the grain and the other issues can be addressed through some curve adjustment when post-processing so it's never really bothered me. I suspect I need to pay more attention in the future though, once I get my darkroom up and running.
Chris, I understand exactly what you mean. It's absolute hell trying to keep consistent temperatures in a Queensland summer!
Freakscene
04-19-2010, 01:12
While we are waiting for Tom: I have a similar problem in mid-summer, and my solution is to cool three litres of water in jugs by adding ice. That gives me enough water for washing the film using the Ilford method (fill, invert x5; fill, invert x 10; fill, invert x 20). It seems to work fine.
I follow a similar regime to that which Chris uses. We get extended periods over 40C here in summer (sometimes with days over 45C) and the tapwater is also often of poor quality at those times. So I add blocks of frozen deionised water to a 20L contianer of distilled water until it is within a degree or two of my developing temperature.
Grain is an issue when your wash water temperature varies. With modern film you have to work REALLY hard to get proper reticulation; students I know have tried and got grainy negs of poor tonality, but over 30C to 4C was what they found they needed to properly reticulate Kodak, Fuji and Agfa films. Efke and Foma were easier.
It's cold here in winter too and I make up large quantities of warmed deionised water. I do this in pyrex cotainers in the microwave because using metal containers on the stove caused my Xtol to do funny things, probably from ions in the solution from the pot, or from reactions between residual ions in the water and the pot.
Marty
Leigh Youdale
04-19-2010, 02:03
I follow a similar regime to that which Chris uses. We get extended periods over 40C here in summer (sometimes with days over 45C) and the tapwater is also often of poor quality at those times. So I add blocks of frozen deionised water to a 20L contianer of distilled water until it is within a degree or two of my developing temperature.
It's cold here in winter too and I make up large quantities of warmed deionised water. I do this in pyrex cotainers in the microwave because using metal containers on the stove caused my Xtol to do funny things, probably from ions in the solution from the pot, or from reactions between residual ions in the water and the pot.
Marty
Nobody in Australia will have a problem cooling wash water. We've all got big beer fridges! Sometimes we even put film in them. Actually in Sydney we must be blessed with fewer extremes because I've never paid much attention to this topic (except the time I did my final wash hooked up to the hot water tap instead of the cold.). The effects on the emulsion were amazing!
I'm aware of it as an issue, of course, but now I'm wondering what the tolerance bandwidth is. It's too simple to say it must be "excactly" the temperature of the developer - film can be developed satisfactorily within a range of temperatures so there must be some inbuilt tolerance there. So what are the limits? + or - 5C? + or - 10C? Does anyone have any real data?
There are of course tolerances, from ilford's id-11 datasheet
STOP, FIX, WASH and RINSE
For best results it is recommended that all process
solutions are kept at the same temperature or at
least within 5oC (9oF) of the developer
temperature.
The quote cited above points out the danger of plunging film into a bath, whether a wash or any other solution, that is much colder than the previous one. The effect of going from one bath into a warmer one is less severe. I have had no troubles when going from the hypo to a warmer wash, say from 68 degrees to 75 or even 80. But I would not go from that wash back into a colder hypo clearing bath, or wetting agent. I use the method Chris suggested-- keeping some cool water on hand for the wash. I do this by keeping some water in a container in the basement. The HVAC ducts run through my darkroom, keeping the darkroom bracingly cold in the summer, warm in winter. I shorten the wash time by using a clearing agent. A small fridge in my darkroom allows me to chill any solutions that are too warm.
I did some testing of that this winter. I develop in 20C, and washed in around 5C. I tested washing at 5 and washing with 20. I couldn't tell the difference with a loupe on the light box, nor with a grain scope under my enlarger.
dfoo
I did some testing of that this winter. I develop in 20C, and washed in around 5C. I tested washing at 5 and washing with 20. I couldn't tell the difference with a loupe on the light box, nor with a grain scope under my enlarger.
__________________
I suspect reticulation is a bit like the yeti, it gets talked abut a lot but actual sightings are few and inconclusive …
oftheherd
04-19-2010, 03:19
Interesting. I had heard of the possibility of retriculation from going to a significanly cooler temp anywhere in the process, but that is usually at the wash. The only problem I had heard about too warm, was melting the emulsion. I didn't know you could get retriculation from warmer water.
Ronald M
04-19-2010, 03:40
Use the water bath water to do the initial wash of the film, and finish with fresh water which you chilled with ice.
All it takes to wash film is about a liter and a half with Ilfords wash sequence. Fill tank, pull film in and out ten times, change water, repeat, change water, 20 cycles in and out.
Use a lift rod, use a plastic tank with lots of head room space, or use a two reel tank with only one reel and an emplty spacer reel on the top. All serve the same purpose as lifting in and out.
Been doing it that way for decades with no ill effect. Do not add hardener to fix or you prolong film wash by a large factor.
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200629163442455.pdf
All described in the very last sentence of the PDF link
I suspect reticulation is a bit like the yeti, it gets talked abut a lot but actual sightings are few and inconclusive …
I had a photo of the yeti, but it was ruined by reticulation :(
sepiareverb
04-19-2010, 04:17
It is actually quite hard to get modern films to reticulate like they used to. I had a student really get into it and it took a surprisingly huge temperature change to get anything to happen- even without hardener in the fixer. From hottest water out of the tap to ice water didn't do nearly the same thing as I used to get when the hot water in my first darkroom ran out. He ended up using sodium carbonate (am I recalling this right?) to assist in getting reticulation.
Freakscene
04-19-2010, 04:41
Yes, a sudden pH shock will help to reticulate. Carbonate or hydroxide will work.
I did a series of experiments, looking at the grain structure at 500x using a microscope and analysing it statistically and found that 2-3C difference made no practical difference, but that keeping everything as closer together, temperature wise, as you can is better. In that experiment I developed with Xtol, which may influence the outcome because it is "weakly alkaline". I have heard from careful workers that Rodinal gets noticeably grainier if used at over 20C. I haven't experimented with that, but it makes sense. So keep everything at as even a temperature as close to 20C as you can.
Marty
Leigh Youdale
04-19-2010, 04:55
I have heard from careful workers that Rodinal gets noticeably grainier if used at over 20C. I haven't experimented with that, but it makes sense.
Marty
I have experienced similar with Rodinal but I put the 'graininess' down to overdevelopment as a result of the warmer (hence faster) working developer rather than the effects of temperature alone. I think you can get that grain effect even from 20C solutions if you extend the development too much. Might be a chicken and egg situation there.
I had a photo of the yeti, but it was ruined by reticulation :(
Ah … that explains it then, was it abominable?
photokalia
04-19-2010, 09:57
I live in the tropics and routinely develop my negs using water straight from the tap, which comes out at between 28 to 30 degrees celcius. I compensate for the shorter development times by using higher levels of dilution for my developer (which works out nicely to help me save on developer). I don't see much difference compared to back when I used to slavishly cool everything to 20 degrees with ice. In fact, I think that now at least I get consistent, reproducible results.
I use mainly HC110 @ 1:100 and Tmax Developer at 1:9. If anyone is interested, I can share the exact timings and dilutions. I've got them on my flickr too (username is photokalia).
The wash has zero effect on granularity, no matter what the temperature. I mean, what is H2O going to do to developed silver?
It is hard to cause reticulation. I mean really hard. The best way is too chemically induce it.
The problem with too hot a wash is that water is absorbed into the emulsion too readily. At what temperature this becomes a problem, I am unsure. I would look at reducing wash time by using a hypo clearing agent. I would also use a two-bath line to wash off the chemicals coating the film and then use a slightly shorter wash to finish the film.
I don't think you have a real problem. However, you could run a test roll to see--you would need to buy a new camera or lens to justify a test roll though. :D
I keep my developers/hypo in 5 liter "jugs" in the darkroom - as well as about 5-6 liter of water. This means that the developer/intermediate wash/hypo is at room temperature (in the winter usually around 20C and in the summer rarely above 25C (this is "temperate" Vancouver after all). Once film is fixed I do a quick rinse with again room temperature water. If the water coming out of the tap is more than 3-5 degrees off from room temperature - I fill the tank from a jug - and the stick the hose in it. My water flow is about 3-3.5 l/min and the "tempered" water from the jug provides a bit of a shock absorber for the flow from the tap.
If the difference is more than 5 degrees - I would store more water at room temperature and introduce the hotter or colder water incrementally.
Modern films are very resistant to reticulation - but if you have enough of a shock - it can happen. Biggest problem with too hot a wash is simply the softening of the emulsion - and if it is way too hot - it can "melt" the emulsion and cause it to slide off the film base!!
As stated, the wash does not cause grain as such - but the fact that the gelatin substrate is in water causes it to swell and this can cause "clumping" of the grain. Some developers use Sodium Sulphate (Td 201) to prevent this from happening. Again, unless you use old style "thick" emulsions like Tri X/+X/XX/HP5 - you wont notice it.
Kodak does have some "Tropical" developers - check in your "Dark Room Cookbook's" for suitable recipes. I have never lived in a place hot enough and/or long enough to try it out though.
photokalia
04-20-2010, 01:29
I've been getting good results with these developer/film combos and timings (using tropical water temperatures, no ice and most importantly, no reticulation!):
TMax 400 @ ISO 1600 in TMax Developer (1:9)
13min at 28 degrees celcius, agitation for first minute, and then for 10 seconds at the 6th and 9th minute.
TMax 400 @ ISO 400 in HC-110 (1:100)
8:37min at 28 degrees celcius, agitation for 1st minute, and then for 10sec at the 5th minute.
Tri-X @ ISO 400 in HC-110 (1:100)
14:07min at 28 degrees celcius, agitation for first minute, and then for 10 seconds at the 6th and 9th minute
HP5 @ ISO 1600 in DDX (1:9)
11:34min at 28 degrees celcius, agitation for first minute and then for 10 seconds at the 5th minute.
I'm very conservative with agitation after the 1st minute as I find the negs get too contrasty and grainy if I agitate too much.
I basically bought the Massive Dev Chart iPhone app and used the temp/time converter to suit tropical temperatures, and also halved the dilutions in order to keep the development times between 8 to 15 minutes. I find that it I get nicer results when I go with a more diluted developer and longer development times, rather than shorter development times using a higher concentration of developer. Would suggest you do some testing of your own using my timings as a base before committing anything important to them. Hope this helps :)
My tap water is a fairly constant 28 degree’s and I have no problems using it as a stop or as a wash. I develop everything at 20 degree’s.
Roger Hicks
05-31-2010, 07:35
Use the Ilford wash sequence (5-10-20 inversions) and you can wash 2x 35mm films in a 425 ml tank in a litre and a half of water. Double any one of the steps for paranoia, and it's still under 2 litres: not hard to get to the right temperature.
Living in a hard water area, I wash with (appropriately tempered) tap water to begin with, using the Ilford sequence, followed by 20 inversions in distilled water, followed by a final rinse in half-strength Agepon (Agfa wetting agent - any will do) in distilled water. Many people do not realize that hard water washes better than distilled. Odd but true.
Cheers,
R.
I wash with water straight out of the tap - in summer at least - and I haven't managed to get a film to reticulate in years. It isn't really an issue any more.
Incidentally, I'm with Roger on using the Ilford method. I also find it's better for controlling the final stages of the wash in my eternal quest to banish drying marks!
I suspect reticulation is a bit like the yeti, it gets talked abut a lot but actual sightings are few and inconclusive …
Ahh, Grasshopper, I have seen it with my very own eyes, and never been able to duplicate it.
Royal X Pan, developed in Dk60a, 4x5. I was distracted and washed the film in hot tap water, which here would be well over 100F, probably closer to 125, and when I picked up the sheet film, the emulsion rubbed off in the corner, and the film was beautifully reticulated.
However, we are talking thick emulsion, and extreme conditions, the some of the cracks followed the edge of some of the subjects in the image.
I tried later to even put hot sheet film in the freezer, and I did get some patterns of frost in the emulsion.
Modern emulsions and chemistry are obviously the blame for lack of reticulation in most cases today.
As the reticulation lines followed the outlines of some of the images, I suspect a connection between the process and the density, and I would not be surprised if there was some effect on grain.
Perhaps some jugs of distilled water can be left someplace to cool? Tap water here in Ohio come out of the faucet in summer right at 68 if you let it run. When I built my last darkroom I put in temperature control -- so I was able to check these things much more easily.
I could see some problems with some films if you wipe them out of water that hot? I like a good hardener with film fix, think you have to add it with the liquid rapid fixes these days.
I would like to get the wash temperature down to no more than 75, and will let you know when the Yeti shows up. :)
Regards, John
Frontman
06-06-2010, 20:25
I did some testing of that this winter. I develop in 20C, and washed in around 5C. I tested washing at 5 and washing with 20. I couldn't tell the difference with a loupe on the light box, nor with a grain scope under my enlarger.
Ditto. My wash water is generally quite a bit colder than my solutions, but I have noticed no difference whatsoever between 20 degree washes and cold water washes. I generally use Acros, Neopan, or Trix using ID-11, Microdol, or D76.
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