Ricoh GRX, GF1 or G2?!?! [Archive] - Rangefinderforum.com

urban_alchemist

04-08-2010, 13:37

So, I'm heading back to Blighty for a week; that's a week to choose my new small-carry-everywhere camera. As it's crunch-time, I've really got to choose...

Ricoh:

Pros - Small, interchangeable units, large-sensors (big!), fast prime 50, interface... love Ricoh.
Cons - No 28 APSC yet, slow autofocus, no video, no IS.

GF1:

Pros - Small, 20mm pancake, video, M-adaptor, fast AF, cheap.
Cons - HORRIBLE interface, small(er) sensor.

G2:
Pros: As above, swivel LCD.
Cons - HORRIBLE interface, small(er) sensor, size

So, with all that out of the way, there's an obvious winner. It's... the...

Sod it, I'm going to bed...:bang:

jsrockit

04-09-2010, 03:54

Anything but the G2, which is ugly.

Frank Petronio

04-09-2010, 04:14

Just get a Pany G1/20 for now and save your money for a generation or two down the pike. I don't think any of the current larger sensor compacts beat the G1 in any significant way and the price/value can't be beat. The price of the Ricoh is ridiculous in spite of the wonderful GR interface; the G2 isn't much better than the G1 other than video; and the GF1 is novel but it is almost too tiny for grown-ups and the G1-G2 EVF is so much more useful in real life.

I do think that once CaNikSony get on the bandwagon we'll see some real competition and some great options in quality small digital cameras. It's clear from the Ricoh reviews that compact APS will offer better quality than micro 4/3s all things being equal.

Renzsu

04-09-2010, 04:51

What's wrong with the Olympus ones? E_PL1 is cheap as well and seems to have great color and ISO performance.

jsrockit

04-09-2010, 05:32

and the GF1 is novel but it is almost too tiny for grown-ups.

This is silly. I'm 6'2" tall with large hands and I don't find it too tiny.

DrLeoB

04-09-2010, 05:55

I had a GRX but didn't like it and gave it to my son for his carry around... Now have two G1's as working cameras and one GF1 as the carry anywhere ... working out to be a very good arrangement.

BillBingham2

04-09-2010, 06:59

The GRX has a much longer life expectancy as you can swap out the sensor as new and better ones come out.

B2 (;->

Finder

04-09-2010, 07:02

The GRX has a much longer life expectancy as you can swap out the sensor as new and better ones come out.

B2 (;->

I would get that in writing from Ricoh just in case the camera does not sell well.

biomed

04-09-2010, 07:08

GF1, 20/1.7, CV 40mm VF. The G1 is a less expensive choice with more bulk (with excellent EVF). No IS in either with the 20/1.7 lens, but I have never needed IS with the 20 -- my rangefinders have never needed IS. Do check the Oly bodies, you may like them.

Finder

04-09-2010, 07:13

andrewteee

04-09-2010, 07:25

I have the GXR/A12 and I have the Olympus E-P2/Panasonic 20mm. Both are great cameras, but ultimately this is where I've landed - I prefer the GXR in most situations. When I want to focus, no pun intended, on more serious work I take the GXR, or I take it when I want the best pictures possible from a compact camera. I take the Olympus when I need faster AF, primarily for family snapshots, although I'm getting better at having the GXR work for me when I need fast shots.

The IQ of GXR/A12 files is simply phenomenal. I use it primarily for B&W work where its dynamic range is very nice to work with, and there is a certain look to the files that I cannot adequately describe, a kind of beautifulness. Color is very good too! For now I use RAW Developer to develop RAW files.

To be sure, the GXR is not perfect, but it is compact, lightweight, quiet, very easy (and fun) to use, easy to grip, and takes fantastic pictures. For now, you are limited to the 50mm focal length (don't bother with the S10 unit), but next up is the 28mm A12 (can't wait for that one!). To me, the Ricoh cameras are very quick to adjust on the fly and configure shot by shot.

That said, the E-P2 with the 20/1.7 is also a great setup with its own sort of beautifulness. I really like it too, and sometimes I just want to shoot with with it for its beautifulness (I also like the Olympus JPGs).

Take a look at my photo blog for some GXR samples. There are also E-P2/20mm samples as well (and lately a lot of iPhone samples!).

aizan

04-09-2010, 08:15

the gxr would be my first choice because of the image quality. the ergonomics and build quality are also the best. the interchangeable lens units are somewhat discouraging, though. at least they're only making one new aps-c unit a year! ;)

biomed

04-09-2010, 08:35

Biomed, how to you like the 3:2 framing of the CV 40mm viewfinder with your lens/camera?

I am using a borrowed CV 40mm finder. The framing works fine - accessory viewfinders are not precise framing tools. I first used the CV 35 finder (as seen in my avatar) and found it to be adequate for use with the 20/1.7. I have't made up my mind whether to buy a 40mm finder or not. I do like using the GF1 in AP mode with an optical VF.

Finder

04-09-2010, 08:41

I am using a borrowed CV 40mm finder. The framing works fine - accessory viewfinders are not precise framing tools. I first used the CV 35 finder (as seen in my avatar) and found it to be adequate for use with the 20/1.7. I have't made up my mind whether to buy a 40mm finder or not. I do like using the GF1 in AP mode with an optical VF.

Thanks.

I am using the Olympus 17mm finder (35mm AoV equiv.) with my cv 21mm lens and it is easy to judge the framing. I am wondering if it is worth going to the cv 40 vf. I, too, enjoy using m4/3 cameras with a viewfinder.

DougFord

04-09-2010, 10:43

Among the choices given, I think the excellent DR and over all IQ of the A12 unit would prompt me to choose the Ricoh, even with the current limitations of the Ricoh system in mind.
Perfect the use of the 50mm-e lens until the 28mm-e becomes available.
The other two choices are ‘complete’ system offerings so you’re trading the very high DR/IQ of the A12 for the versatility currently provided by the others.
Or you could wait until Nikon/Sony/Canon reveal their APSc EVIL products.
The idea of a compact Sony APSc EVIL camera with a set of lenses designed by Zeiss has me firmly sitting on the fence for a while.
One thing’s for certain, as these new products are announced, it ain’t gonna make the decision any easier.
Maybe it’s inny meeny minny mo time? :eek:

RayPA

04-09-2010, 11:00

Just get a Pany G1/20 for now and save your money for a generation or two down the pike. I don't think any of the current larger sensor compacts beat the G1 in any significant way and the price/value can't be beat. The price of the Ricoh is ridiculous in spite of the wonderful GR interface; the G2 isn't much better than the G1 other than video; and the GF1 is novel but it is almost too tiny for grown-ups and the G1-G2 EVF is so much more useful in real life.

A BIG +1 on this ^

However, of the choices I voted for G2. G1/G2 has great ergos, the articulated LCD and the EVF. Those three things are no-brainer hands-down winners over the GF1, EP1/2. Go with the G1/G2 (preferably the G1).

Edit: Disagree about the "horrible interface" on the Panasonics.
/

chrisso

04-09-2010, 16:19

One thing’s for certain, as these new products are announced, it ain’t gonna make the decision any easier.

Well I agree with that.
Just looking at Panasonic, I'm already confused as to the various feature sets, pros and cons between the G1, G2, GH1 and G10.
:(

I'm also heading to the UK in about a month.
I guess I could send my wishlist to Robert White and see which model they recommend.

historicist

04-09-2010, 16:36

Samsung NX-10!

The GXR is probably better, but way more expensive - I prefer to spend my money on film cameras - and the 50mm lens is very deep. Not sure what the latest firmware is like, but when I tried it there was severe tearing in the EVF and a really annoying freezing of the image while focussing. Pity, becaise the body design feels really, really good.

The Samsung looks a bit chintzy in photos, but not so bad in the flesh - it's no EP-1, but I don't feel like I have to wear a paper bag over my head while I am using it.

And the 30mm lens is really very, very good (the kit lens isn't really, and no smaller than equivalent canon or nikon lenses).

But mainly it's the price - by the time you have got an optical or electronic viewfinder on a GF1 or EP plus the 20mm f1.7 you'll have paid at least two hundred pounds more than the NX-10 and 30mm.

Neare

04-09-2010, 16:51

Take a look at the E-P2. Its sensor colour rendition is far better than the G series plus the EVF is amongst, if not, the best. Stick the panny's 20mm pancake on it afterward if you're after AF.

biomed

04-09-2010, 17:56

However, of the choices I voted for G2. G1/G2 has great ergos, the articulated LCD and the EVF. Those three things are no-brainer hands-down winners over the GF1, EP1/2. Go with the G1/G2 (preferably the G1).

Edit: Disagree about the "horrible interface" on the Panasonics.
/

I agree with you to a degree, the GF1 is the most pocketable of the Panasonics (with the 20) IMO. I used a G1 a few weeks ago and liked its ergonomics. I ordered one last week and am awaiting delivery this coming Monday.

I used a GF1 and a Canon DSLR to shoot a wedding a couple of weeks ago. The DSLR was used for the flash shots and the GF1 for available light shots. All of the outdorr shots were taken wih the GF1. What a joy of a camera to use!

I think it is great to get input from others about different cameras. My advice to friends who ask for recommendations for what camera to buy is to make a list of features you want, decide what the cost limit is and then go look at the models that fit those parameters. My main point is not to buy a camera without holding it in your hands first. The GF1 fit my requirements of compactness and RAW image recording. It was the best choice for me. I found I really like the MFT system cameras. I am predicting that the 20/1.7 will live on my GF1 and the G1 will be used with zoom lenses (14 - 45 and perhaps a 45 - 200). Yes, I did look at the digital Pens. Very nice cameras, but they didn't fit my hands as well.

So, urban alchemist, I wish you luck with your camera quest. I hope whichever one you decide on works well for you.

Mike

urban_alchemist

04-10-2010, 23:45

Thanks all for your feedback and advice - and for not making my decision even the slightest bit easier!!! ;)

Pretty much everyone's views tallied with my own in one shape or another: it is very unusual for me to see no obvious leader...

So let me (for myself) try and answer some criticisms/advice:

1. Ricoh: Yes, it is a first generation camera, but uniquely, the camera is the cheapest link. While the lense/sensor units are expensive, when the second gen unit comes out (higher res LCD? Smaller?), it will be relatively cheap to upgrade. From what I've seen (not least on Andrew's blog), the Ricoh's images are noticably superior to the Panis'...

2. Panasonic GF1/G2/G1: They're really not bad. Image quality is good; size is good; price is VERY good, BUT... I know I'm going to get shot down, but I don't understand the UI of the G-series. It's VERY good by digital camera standards, but compared to the Ricoh it is clunky, cumbersome and counter-intuitive. I bought my fiance's mother a G1, and nearly cracked my head against a wall trying to work out what button did what, lead to what... And in answer to the Olympus people: the Pen UI made the Panasonic seem like heaven...

Keep the opinions coming. At the moment, i'm leaning towards the Ricoh... that 50 + (future) 28mm combo may be enough to make me rest easy about the system's future...

urban_alchemist

04-12-2010, 10:17

Well... I did it. Thank you Len and Barry @ R G Lewis. I went in there, and found myself very surprised. First: The shortlist turned out to be between the Ricoh GXR and Leica X1. I was quite impressed with the Leica - it is a lovely product, generally great UI (like the rotational shutter-speed/aperture), menus as comfortable as old shoes (coming from M8/M9), and frankly astonishing IQ.

But there were some deal-breakers. First: very slow AF. This was obvious in the Ricoh too, but instead of a lovely rotational dial around the lense for manual-focus (like the RIcoh), the X1 used a horrid thumb-dial at the rear of the camera. Now in a fixed-lense camera, this makes no sense, especially as the space is used by... a horrid lump of plastic.

And then the second: the price.

Yes, I know the Ricoh is expensive - substantially more than the Panasonics, but it is a system camera. I walked out of the shop with the GXR, the EVF, 50 APS-C macro, 24-72 macro unit, extra battery and the folding lense-cap, and it cost LESS than the X1. When the 28mm APS-C unit is launched, I will be able to have a full system camera covering nearly all lense-lengths for the same price as what is, in-effect, a closed, 35mm camera.

Anyway, I'll write a few words when I've played with it a bit more, but Ricoh GXR it is. And a lovely little camera it seems too...

andrewteee

04-12-2010, 10:24

Awesome. Enjoy!

jsrockit

04-12-2010, 11:56

You probably made the right choice ...

urban_alchemist

04-12-2010, 14:03

You probably made the right choice ...

And this from an X1 owner. How are you finding yours?

dovi

04-15-2010, 21:30

How is the EVF?

Well... I did it. Thank you Len and Barry @ R G Lewis. I went in there, and found myself very surprised. First: The shortlist turned out to be between the Ricoh GXR and Leica X1. I was quite impressed with the Leica - it is a lovely product, generally great UI (like the rotational shutter-speed/aperture), menus as comfortable as old shoes (coming from M8/M9), and frankly astonishing IQ.

But there were some deal-breakers. First: very slow AF. This was obvious in the Ricoh too, but instead of a lovely rotational dial around the lense for manual-focus (like the RIcoh), the X1 used a horrid thumb-dial at the rear of the camera. Now in a fixed-lense camera, this makes no sense, especially as the space is used by... a horrid lump of plastic.

And then the second: the price.

Yes, I know the Ricoh is expensive - substantially more than the Panasonics, but it is a system camera. I walked out of the shop with the GXR, the EVF, 50 APS-C macro, 24-72 macro unit, extra battery and the folding lense-cap, and it cost LESS than the X1. When the 28mm APS-C unit is launched, I will be able to have a full system camera covering nearly all lense-lengths for the same price as what is, in-effect, a closed, 35mm camera.

Anyway, I'll write a few words when I've played with it a bit more, but Ricoh GXR it is. And a lovely little camera it seems too...

jsrockit

04-16-2010, 04:33

And this from an X1 owner. How are you finding yours?

I love my X1, but to me, anything other than the G1/G2 was good choice. He seemed excited about all of the options the Ricoh offered, so it seemed like he made the right choice. I'm more of a simple no frills guy, so the X1 suits me. The Ricoh is cool though...there is no doubting that. I'd love to have one as well.

urban_alchemist

04-17-2010, 00:50

How is the EVF?

Surprisingly good actually - I find myself using it exclusively. Any problems with it are associated with the AF (the image blacks-out for faster focussing on the 50mm), but refresh seems instant, and there's little-to-no lag...

I'll do a bit of a 'first impressions' review on another thread: seems theres quite alot to say...

Archlich

04-25-2010, 22:31

I choose to wait. Should the A12 28mm f/2.5 module for GXR scheduled end of this year have AF performance on par with the Panasonics...

Before then, I'll be happy with my GRD3, which has everything but a large sensor.

BillBingham2

04-26-2010, 06:29

When I look over all at the GXR and GRD line I have to think that focus speed is the only area that Ricoh is lacking. I read is partially because I suspect when they were ordering features vs competitors the M4/3s was not as visible. Also I think that in spite of our desire to use this type of camera rather than a DSLR the manufactures may not believe that they have a hope in he11 of achieving the volume DSLRs seem to have in the market.

I'm wondering how much power those motors and focus CPUs take. Perhaps if they only had a single spot focus (like an old SLR screen) that might allow them to live with less power (simpler CPU)?

As the motor sits with the lens and sensor in the GXR this might allow Ricoh to come out with units that say cost 40% more but are as fast focusing as the DSLRs? Would you pay more of a premium for a premium speed module?

Enquiring minds want to know.

B2 (;->

malland

07-22-2010, 23:26

For me, the issue of slow focus with the GXR/A12 is overblown. The issue, it seems to me, is a more general one for non-viewfinder cameras. Considering street photography, once you have to use AF, even the fastest and the best system is difficult to use: when I tried doing street photography with the Nikon D300, which has one of the best and fastest AF system with focus tracking, it was often still difficult to know whether the camera had focused on the plane of focus that one wanted; and one generally did better to use zone focusing in any case, as one would using a Leica-M.

With the GXR/A12 I zone focus as follows: I use Spot AF to focus a the plane of focus that I want and then press the Function 2 button, which I have programmed to swich between AF/MF. This puts the camera into manual focus mode, and keeps the zone focus where I want it, which also eliminates shutter lag from the AF and from the exposure meter as well becacuse I also use manual spot exposure.

The GXR and the GRD3 have a very good manual exposure method: one presses one of the buttons which centers the meter "needle" on the "recommened exposure" and then one can adjust the shutter speed by using the ADJ lever on the back of the camera.

I too am waiting for the 28mm-e/f2.5 module for the GXR, but focusing will be less of an issue because that lens has much greater depth of field than the A12/50mm-e lens.

—Mitch/Pak Nam Pran
Pak Nam Pran (http://www.flickr.com/photos/malland/sets/72157623125199790/show/)

coelacanth

08-28-2010, 00:41

I decided to pickup a G2 as a part of my only digital system: micro4/3. MF-capable BUILT-IN EVF is a big plus for me. And I'll probably use it with the LCD panel tacked face-in as I did with G1 in the past. This, right now, the best "rear cap" for various prime lenses I can use on the m4/3 platform, and I'll ignore the LCD and use just like I'd do with my film cameras. (I dislike shoot-n-check-LCD method that you'd typically do with digital cameras because that breaks the "rhythm.")

dovi

08-28-2010, 05:33

I think the Autofocusing in anything but bright light is terrible. Even Ricoh posted firmware to give a quicker focusing option.

I must say that using the technique you recommend has worked out very well for me. Learning how to manually focus this camera to get the depth of field I want has made me much better with Manual Focus cameras in general. fwiw two quick shots I was able to get using the technique you describe:

http://dvll.smugmug.com/photos/961729964_wct5U-M.jpg

http://dvll.smugmug.com/photos/961732174_bxU5L-M.jpg

I think Ricoh should turn off snap focusing by default because that was giving me hell until I read about it. Between Snap focusing and the slow Autofocusing speed I was having a rough time getting clearly focused shots.

Still a great camera for many other reasons...

For me, the issue of slow focus with the GXR/A12 is overblown. The issue, it seems to me, is a more general one for non-viewfinder cameras. Considering street photography, once you have to use AF, even the fastest and the best system is difficult to use: when I tried doing street photography with the Nikon D300, which has one of the best and fastest AF system with focus tracking, it was often still difficult to know whether the camera had focused on the plane of focus that one wanted; and one generally did better to use zone focusing in any case, as one would using a Leica-M.

With the GXR/A12 I zone focus as follows: I use Spot AF to focus a the plane of focus that I want and then press the Function 2 button, which I have programmed to swich between AF/MF. This puts the camera into manual focus mode, and keeps the zone focus where I want it, which also eliminates shutter lag from the AF and from the exposure meter as well becacuse I also use manual spot exposure.

The GXR and the GRD3 have a very good manual exposure method: one presses one of the buttons which centers the meter "needle" on the "recommened exposure" and then one can adjust the shutter speed by using the ADJ lever on the back of the camera.

I too am waiting for the 28mm-e/f2.5 module for the GXR, but focusing will be less of an issue because that lens has much greater depth of field than the A12/50mm-e lens.

—Mitch/Pak Nam Pran
Pak Nam Pran (http://www.flickr.com/photos/malland/sets/72157623125199790/show/)

jsrockit

11-02-2010, 04:07

So, after the firmware update the Ricoh is still slow?

kjoebek

11-02-2010, 09:43

You just need the new A12 GR 28mm, then the Ricoh is fast. It is a fantasic lens! Here is a link for my pictures taken with the new Ricoh GR A12 28mm.

http://www.phosee.dk/lens/524-a12-gr-28mm-f25

kjoebek

11-02-2010, 10:42

I use a Olympus viewfinder on my Ricoh GXR with A12 GR 28mm

BillBingham2

11-02-2010, 11:26

Great setup. On my GRD III I have a CV 28 Black Metal finder, brings a somewhat classic flavor and many strange looks from people.

Great shots, thanks for sharing!

B2 (;->

jsrockit

11-09-2010, 04:29

Which olympus VF?

kjoebek

11-11-2010, 12:22

Olympus VF-1

BearCatCow

12-02-2010, 20:54

I hear with the newest firmware the Ricoh 50mm is really fast as well.

silverbullet

12-03-2010, 05:38

The (inofficial) speed ranking could be after the fw update:

Pana GH2
GXR
Oly
X1

retow

12-21-2010, 08:00

The (inofficial) speed ranking could be after the fw update:

Pana GH2
GXR
Oly
X1

Have the GXR and X1 and had the EP2. Agree with your ranking, and continue
....
DP2
DP1

jsrockit

12-30-2010, 03:47

Olympus VF-1

34mm versus 28mm? Why would you do that to yourself? :D

jaykuhlmann

03-17-2011, 13:17

I bought a GXR a few months ago and find it to be an excellent little camera. As others have stated, the interface is great -- better than any other digital I've used, including my D700.

Both A12 units focus well with the most recent firmware update, but still not quite as fast as the GF1. I had one of those, and sold it. The Ricoh blows it away at any ISO over 400. However, the Ricoh files are not great at ISO 3200. Some shots look okay, but if you have to bring up the shadows at all, banding results. Between 200 and 800, the files are really outstanding. Another plus for me over the GF1 is the fact that the Ricoh shutter is virtually silent and the EFV is very good. The build quality and finish of the Ricoh is really first rate as well.

That said, with the viewfinder attached and the 50mm lens module, the GXR is not that small anymore and won't really fit in a pocket.