View Full Version : History of Pricing?
In reading about FSUs I don’t really recall coming across any info concerning a guess at the MSRP for a new Zorki/FED/Kiev/Moskva at the time they were manufactured. My understanding of most of these is that they were made to be sold to Average Joe in the Soviet Union. True? Or were they priced toward those who maybe had a little more than most folks? Then later, those cameras made for export to the US were possibly priced for the US market... a little price hike?
Out of curiosity, does anyone have an idea about the pricing of Zorki, FED. Kiev or Moskva, say in the 50’s & 60’s? (Ballpark guesstimations welcome.) Thanx.
I'm sure somebody has the info you are seek. But be aware of the situation in the Soviet Union when these cameras were being produced.
Reason 1 for the cameras was to give people jobs. I don't think the Communists were as concerned about producing something that could be sold to the outside worls as they were giving as many folks as possible something to do.
2. The average person in Soviet society didn't have much in the way of frills. The cameras were a way of giving people a frill. The prices were highly subsidized so nearly everyone could boast that they has a real 35mm camera. The Everyman's cameras were the Zorki 2Cs and the FED 2 and later the Zorki 4 and Mir. It you were higher up in the pecking order you might have a Zorki 3 or Kiev.
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2. The average person in Soviet society didn't have much in the way of frills. The cameras were a way of giving people a frill.
Good point. My friend at work, is from near the Turkish border in Russia. His wife is from Moscow. He said that she hated waiting in line all freaking day to get stuff from the grocery only to be out by the time she gets there. I wouldn't think she would wait in line for a camera. Needless to say, she would never go back there.
I've always figured the reason every Soviet camera has a leather, neverready case, was that making the cases put x number of people to work doing something. To understand how Soviet industry worked (and why quality is so varied) get hold of a copy of Hedrick Smith's "The Russians" published in the 1970s.
Great input, and pretty much along the lines I was thinking - an everyman's camera. Though I hadn't thought of it, I have read the "creating jobs" purpose to photo equipment production. The Law of Supply & Demand had a different twist - Supply Jobs! despite the lack of Demand for the product. Keep the people busy [so they won't notice the absence of food on the shelves...?]
I know a good little book seller that just might have a copy of Smith's book squirreled away in his pack-rat of a book store. I'll give him a call. Thanks.
So, all things considered, it would make the price of these little nuggets quite minimal; a man who stands in line for bread is not going to spend too much for the frills of a camera; they're too tough to cook and don't make enough fire to keep him warm. It probably wouldn't be a priority for me either.
Let's take a guess. Prices in the shops, new in the box for a Zorki 2C or FED 2 during 1950's/60's ::: 10bucks US? 20?
Oh, for the love of Pete! Why don't I just write Oleg and ask him???? He'd probably have a good idea. Or Fedka for cryin' out loud! What am I thinkin'???
2Bangs :bang: :bang: I'm an idiot!!
The issue with leather cases is that up to 1950s the leather was a commodity in USSR, unlike dermantine. Then, consider that some of the cameras were made after Western prototypes, and those had leather cases/finish too.
A caveat to those researching historic Soviet prices: in 1961, Soviet rouble was denominated by factor of 10. That is, what was 10 roubles became 1 rouble. I guess it made some enthusiast researches to infer from the large pre-1961 numbers that the cameras were meant for "party bosses" only - they were not. They certainly had varying quality and sophistication, but photography was pretty common hobby and you could definitely afford a camera, or at least save for one in a few months.
Pherdinand
07-13-2005, 02:46
One more thing to add to the discussion. I'm not sure about the USSR but in other communist countries like Romania, export was the main goal of production. "We" (i was <13) exported everything that was not defective. That included salami (they made very good salami in a certain city in Romania but we have seen it only 2-3 times a year and always via somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody...who knew somebody working in the factory), pencils, massive wooden furniture, clothing, etc, up to components for nuclear reactors (my little hometown had a factory that produced large size iron cast components for canadian nuclear power plants in the eighties, supersecret action and still everybody knew it).
No matter the 3-4 hour lines in front of the bakery at five in the morning, the most iportant thing was to keep the "image of the country" good for the rest of the world.
Roger Hicks
07-13-2005, 05:57
Ceaucescu's Romania was an extreme and indeed insane example, but another point worth making is that many things had fixed, low prices but were not actually available. When I was in the Soviet Union in 1990, for example, the state price for tomatoes was 35 kopeks/kilo but the only way you could actually buy them was in one of the new 'free markets' such as Dogoromilovskaya Market at 2 roubles/kilo. And once at a restaurant I was given 200g of caviare (Oscietra Malossol -- my favourite!) in lieu of change.
Other things were snapped up as soon as they were available. I remember seeing a bunch of Vietnamese clean out the enlargers on the camera store on Kutusovsky Prospekt (Jupiter?), almost as fast as they had come in.
Capitalism is disastrous in theory but not too bad in reality, at least when administered by leaders who are not illiterate, insane, etc. and modified by half-decent social legislation, but even the best forms of communism or socialism, administered by the most noble and disinterested of leaders, tend to be worse. Then of course you have communism with leaders like Ceaucescu!
Incidentally, Pherdinand, is your first language Roman or Magyar? I only recently learned that Magyar speakers are in fact a minority in Transylvania. Magyar propaganda post-Trianon was pretty good -- though one of my oldest and closest friends is admittedly Hungarian.
Cheers,
Roger
Pherdinand
07-13-2005, 06:21
Hungarian. Yep, we're a minority, about 8% of the country's population, but not equally distributed. I lived for 18 years in a 40.000 town with 95% hungarians which lies geographically in the middle of Romania (see map in the other thread). Pretty funny, huh?:)) There are 2-3 more towns like this in transylvania. The town has 5 elementary/general and 6 high- and technical schools where kids learn 100% in hungarian up to the age of 18, except subjeects like Romania's history and languages of course.
I've learned romanian only in the school + at university (in a far city). I still make mistakes when speaking it, occasionally.
By the way, there are occasional conflicts between hu/ro groups, but they are *always* artifficially created. I myself stay here in the Netherlands sharing a house with a romanian guy from the eastern region, Moldova, and he got married with a half romanian half hungarian girl from the far north, Maramaros :) We get along pretty good for 3 years already.
Back to the subjkect:
I agree, communism as idea is very nice but in practice it will never work because "some are more equal". I find it so funny when I hear people from western europe stating proudly that they are communists in their beliefs...
Cheers
In my late teens in the "nifty fifties" I would drive my Mom to Toronto (from Sudbury Ont.) so that she send special parcels to our relatives in the Ukraine. There were stores in Toronto who specialized in such import and export transactions and many of them at the time sold Russian Cameras.
As I recall, there were a number of "Leica types" in their display cases and prices were in the range of $60.00 to $100.00 Cdn. (The Can & US Dollars were almost on par)
These cameras did look nice, but beyond my meager means at the time. A good week's wages in those days was about $85.00.
Bill K.
oftheherd
07-13-2005, 09:09
I don't know why, but I am reminded of the quote I heard attributed to a Soviet worker, that went something like ... "They pretended to pay us and we pretended to work."
Roger Hicks
07-13-2005, 09:46
Dear Oftheherd,
That attitude was still alive at German unification!
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.vom)
Back to the starting question: I bought my first cam (a Lubitel2) in '69 for just 300 HUF. It was my salary for a two weeks 6 hours/day job in the summer holiday.
(My other dream was a Beirette, but it was too much, nearly 400.)
Unfortunately I don't remember the HUF/RBL exchange rate - I was only 15 then.
But it is not important as the dual echange system (different rates in 'tourist' and 'trade' purposes) was definitely cut from real rates.
Therefore it was a pretty nice business to 'import' goods from places where they were ridiculously cheep - ofcourse for those who could travel.
By the way, the convertibility of national devises in the sixties was a new idea even in western countries...
As I saw this thread I thought I can easily answer the question as soviets used to print the price on the goods. ... except my Fed...So it's clear, it was made for export not for inland trade.
Cheers,
nemjo
Roger Hicks
07-13-2005, 11:59
Dear Nemjo,
Where are you?
Maybe we can see you next year.
(This year: Igal, Sarospatak)
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.ciom)
Hello Rogoer,
just the other part of the country - Tatabanya.
But I took my german friends a few weeks ago to Tokaj, and as it is only a few kms we were at 'Patak too. I'm sure you'll take very nice pics there.
nemjo
Roger Hicks
07-13-2005, 12:12
Dear Nemjo,
Perhaps we can meet next year....
We have a great weaKness for furdoe (sorry, no Hungarian letter-accents available)
Cheers,
Roger
Pherdinand
07-13-2005, 12:32
If it helps, my Jupiter-8 42mm- slip-on plastic,round lens hood has 25 pokep pressed in it, that is, 1/4 ruble.
The box of the jupi-9 for Kiev has a handwritten 90 Rsomething, on the paper sticker, but i dunno how old the writing might be.
The 85mm viewfinder has the same type of writing saying 4,50 or 6,50.
Dear Roger,
let me know when to come and we could see...
Do you annually wisit Hungary? If so - you're right...
Cheers,
nemjo
Pherdinand
07-13-2005, 12:34
roger, try alt-129 and alt-148 :)
Great quote. Hey, I think I've been a member of that same union!
"They pretended to pay us and we pretended to work."
Anyway, I got a note from Oleg this morning with some ballpark figures [which I'll tack on the end here.] He made note of the change in roubles in 1961, but posts only the pre-1961 Smena price. However, it's not hard to do the math. Maybe Pherdinand or others could take a shot at approximating a roubles to dollars exchange rate in or around 1961?
---- KMZ Prices ----
from Oleg:
Hello *****
I found info about some KMZ cameras:
Camera - lens - year - price in roubles
Zorki-6 Industar-50 196x 35 -
Zorki-4K Industar-50 1977 40 -
Zorki-4K Jupiter-8 1977 49,5 -
Narciss Vega-M1 196x 85 -
Zenit-E Industar-50 197x 77 -
Zenit-E Helios-44-2 197x 100 -
Zenit-B Helios-44-2 197x 90 -
Zenit-B Industar-50 197x 67 -
Zenit-EM Helios-44M 1973 140 -
Zenit-16 Helios-44M 197x 250 -
Zenit-18 Helios-44M 1980--1985 540 -
Zenit-19 Helios-44M 198x 295 -
Zenit-Automat Helios-44K-4 198x 235 -
Zenit-11 Helios-44M-4 1981--1982 170 -
Zenit-11 Helios-44M-4 1983--1987 140 -
Zenit-12 Helios-44M-4 1983--1985 180 -
Zenit-TTL Helios-44M 197x 180 -
Zenit-12SD Helios-44M-4 1987 195 -
Really hard to compare prices in different years...
Note, in 1961 was money denomination in USSR.
10 roubles before 1961 is equal to one rouble 1961 and later.
If you want to campare FED-Zorki-Kiev-Moskva:
Zorki price equal near FED price (FED may be slightly cheaper)
Kiev was expensive - near two prices of FED.
I can not say definitely about Moskva....
Cheapest 35 mm camera was a Smena (cheapest Smena always cost 15
roubles (150 before 1961 for Smena-1))
Lubitel price was near 25 roubles.
Sincerely,
Oleg
Pherdinand
07-13-2005, 13:01
CVBLZ, in 1961 I was not more than a thought in my father's head:)
Anyway, in the early eighties it was stg like 1$ to 1.6 ruble or such. Maybe 1 to 1.4 .
Pherdinand - No way I thought you had first hand experience. Ha! But, you came through with a lot more knowlegeable guess than I could've made. So a 40 rouble camera in the late 70's early 80's might have gone for $27-$29 US. And I'm going to say it's a safe bet that the Zorkis of the 50's/60's went for under $25.
Think I'm close? :confused:
The "official" RBL to USD exchange rate in USSR was 0.60: 1 US dollar costed 60 kopeikas (the Russian analogue of cents). Of course you could not walk in a bank and buy a dollar - the exchange was done only for those travelling abroad on business or tourist trips, and in very limited amounts. Unofficial exchange rates were orders of magnitude higher in favor of dollar, and currency trading was dangerous and illegal business: you could get capital punishment for that depending on the amount.
Still, the official rate possibly was used to convert internal prices for foreign markets. Not sure on this though.
Oh, and while the camera prices remained stable for decades (not a single kopeika of change), they weren't usually stamped/engraved on the bodies.
It might be an idea to compare prices in a country who imported and sold cameras from all over the world, for instance UK:
I have lost a 1979 copy of Photography which I remember, had an advertisment for Kiev 4, 4A, Zorki 4K and Fed; but looking at Zenit prices might still give something of a ballpark:
Camera User magazine, September 1974 prices in pound sterling as advertised:
Zenit E with Helios-44, 58/2, 29.40; 50/3.5, 24.50
Konica Autoreflex T3 with Hexanon50/1.7, 134.90
Pentax SP1000 with SMC Takumar 55/2, 108.95
Canon FTb with 50/1.8, 129.60
This should put them in perspective I presume.
The "official" RBL to USD exchange rate in USSR was 0.60: 1 US dollar costed 60 kopeikas ...
...and while the camera prices remained stable for decades (not a single kopeika of change...
Good info varjag. So official RBL/USD exchange rate didn't change much either? The rate you mentioned could be true of 1950's & 60's ... or when?
P.S. - just looked at your "Protest Shots" in the gallery --- good stuff!
I think its a bit pointless to compare prices from old Soviet Union. The exchange rate was bogus anyway. In 1961 there was a currency reform 10 rubles became 1 ruble. just like that. The exchange rate in the 80's was about 3 rubles for a dollar! What bull****! In 1991 when soviet Union broke up the true value of the ruble came out. It was all of a sudden something like 180 rubles for a dollar. If a camera cost was 150 rubles, that was about a months salary. In US that would have translated to 50$ in the 80's. So I just think its hard to compare.
Good info varjag. So official RBL/USD exchange rate didn't change much either? The rate you mentioned could be true of 1950's & 60's ... or when?
No idea acually.. I know that the 0.60 rate was actual in 1970s-1980s. As mentioned earlier, it was an artificial rather than market-driven figure: you wouldn't find it quoted in Forex ticker. It was used for statistics and conversion purely within Soviet borders, so it could well be a starting point for VneshTorg (the organisation commiting all foreing trade) prices.
P.S. - just looked at your "Protest Shots" in the gallery --- good stuff!
Thanks! It was a good workout for my Kiev :)
I think its a bit pointless to compare prices from old Soviet Union. The exchange rate was bogus anyway.
I can't speak for others in this thread, but I, personally, am not interested in "comparing" anything to anything. IMHO, I don't think my interest in the history concerning the cameras I enjoy is the least bit pointless. Whether the exchange rate was B.S. or not is moot to my research. I'm just wondering what the Average Joe in Russia paid for a 1955 Zorki 3M, or a 1956 Zorki 4. And judging by the number of replies to this thread, I would venture to say that wonderings of this sort are of at least some interest to others who enjoy these cameras and find their history also interesting, bogus pricing and all.
You're abosolutely right, considerations of the Soviet economy, payscale, etc. need to be considered to really understand. That's the reason for asking questions and getting many interesting replies, while actually READING all the above posts. I also got the info below I pieced together from a couple of emails from Yuri at Fedka which I think shines a little light on this very subject.
********************
"I have not seen this information on other web sites, but I have some of it in my records. I would have to dig to find the prices, but they would only make sense if you know the salaries and cost of living at that period. ..... In Stalin’s time, in the late 1930’s the FED was 528 roubles (average salary was 1000 roubles). In the 1950’s the Lubitel was 10 roubles (with a salary around 600).
.... In general, FEDs nd Zorkis were priced in the middle, Kiev and Moskva - high. The Lubitel and Smena were very cheap, really affordable. .... Yes, the Moskva was at he high end – it is a quality camera overall.
Yuri"
By sharing the info of salary, I thought it quite brings the cost into perspective. Thanks Yuri @ Fedka!!
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