Can I Make Money With Photography?

[Bike Tourist]

For many years I have been augmenting my retirement income with microstock sales. I have noticed every now and then that people on RFF will ask if it is practical to use their photography to add to their income, possibly to help finance their hobby. Here is the most honest and comprehensive article I have read recently that should answer that question:

http://www.johnlund.com/2010/03/jim-pickerell-interviewed-end-of-stock.html

For some time, I have thought that stock photography, like music and writing, was going to diminish as electronic media keep driving the prices for arts-based services down and down. Jim Pickerell seems to agree.

[Pickett Wilson]

An honest, realistic assessment. Some people are making a living with photography in general still. But, that standard of living probably isn't what most folks would want. As for stock photography, it's been on it's way out for years. Things change.

[Lulu Rosenkrantz]

You can't, but I can.

[tom.w.bn]

I don't earn money with photography but I am a user of microstock photos. Because they are so cheap now I can use microstock stuff to pimp up my internal presentations to sell my ideas better. That's only possible because my department pays 1-2 EUR for one small web sized photo. The low prize is good for us as a user, but I can't imagine how someone can make a living from that.
But times change. One part of my family has a strong farming background. 30-20 years ago all of them were full time farmers. Now the children who took over the farms are only part time farmers and they need another job to make a living. Probably it was hard, but they adapted to changing situations.

[Avotius]

Stock photography takes a lot of energy to do I found. I decided my heart was not in it when I saw the returns compared to how much money I could make doing other things.

Actually for the most part, I found my heart not in photography much anymore after doing a few years work in it and now just shoot the odd commercial assignment to supplement the two other jobs I have.

The problem really is the drive and motivation to keep with it even after some slow times. I wish you luck with yours.

I have a friend right now who shoots stock photos in England to get a little money but she shoots mostly nude female body parts so that may be a different idea as well :)

[FrankS]

The best way to make a small fortune in either photography or farming, is to start with a large fortune.

[Bike Tourist]

The best way to make a small fortune in either photography or farming, is to start with a large fortune.

That's a good way, Frank. Here's another: Sell your equipment!

[FrankS]

... or sell the farm.

[kuzano]

The best way to make a small fortune in either photography or farming, is to start with a large fortune.

Start with a large fortune that, as it dwindles down, will still be considered a large fortune for some time.

It's much like the book on "How to Become A Millionaire"...

Page 1.... First, get a million dollars.....

As far as the topic goes, I am a firm believer that marketing properly is the key to making money in any profession. I have some good friends in the art gallery trade and know a few photographers striving to make income.

My consensus is that artists and photographers in general are terrible at marketing, but not willing to part with the percentages that agents and galleries take.

So to keep their income all to themselves the rule that applies is that 100% of very little is still very little. And while it's agonizing to some to share with agents and galleries, 50% of something could actually be 2-300% of 100% of very little.

(Sorry, did someone complain about vague income figures?)

But the fact truly is that with little or poor marketing, success is hard to attain without connections and wonderful accidents.

[robert blu]

It seems me that many photographer, with an outstanding reputation worldwide, have a collateral activity like teaching photography. This let me think that it is not so easy to make money just with photography ...
rob

[FrankS]

I'm not sure why anyone would you really want to do photography as a job anyway. It's more enjoyable when you don't have to photograph what and how others tell you to. You'd have to be young and intense and dedicate your life to this and forsake meaningful long term relationships.

[ampguy]

I can't answer the OP's question, but can provide some data on people trying: at a local restaurant, a photographers works are up on the walls. They look like digital snaps, but are printed on an Epson Inkjet printer on Epson archival paper with K3 inks. He charges around $170-ish for the print plus matte.

The photos are nothing special, homeless people in SF, general mountain and seascape nature photos, mix of color and b/w.

However, framed, he charges about $230, and his nice wooden frames look like the high end ones at walmart which sell for $20-30.

So he may be making a nice markup on the frames, so it seems fair that he allows his prints in 7x10 and 10x14 to be sold sans frames.

I have no idea if the restaurant gets a cut of the sales (if any).

[Lulu Rosenkrantz]

Get a few good shots of some multimillionaire sports figure or politician cheating on his wife. Big bux.

[emraphoto]

there are avenues of stock sales that pay very well. if you are lucky/good enough to get on with image banks from AP, CP or Getty etc. editorial work can be lucrative. i have a set of images of a fella running clinical trials on an HIV vaccine right now, with CP that have proven very "successful". if i get called out on a "job" i get paid in blocks of 3 hours and each is $150.

(forgive me however i am not going to post much in the way of figures)

i have an inside track with the labor unions here in Ontario that gets me early info and unfettered access to meeting, demonstrations and that sort of thing. it all goes to CP, AP and Bloomberg and has worked out very well for me.

i also work on art grants, private funding and every thing else i can get my hands on. if anyone wants help with that sort of stuff send me an email.

you can make a living. it CAN be done. it takes creative thinking, a niche, skill, marketing, grant writing, etc. etc. (it's a LONG etc. list)

the "you can't do it" thing is popular and quite frankly the folks singing that song are not equipped to do it.

[Pickett Wilson]

What is takes these days, as emraphoto will tell you, is an extreme work ethic. You have to be very good and work very, very hard. Most folks just won't do it.

[emraphoto]

I'm not sure why anyone would you really want to do photography as a job anyway. It's more enjoyable when you don't have to photograph what and how others tell you to. You'd have to be young and intense and dedicate your life to this and forsake meaningful long term relationships.

actually Frank my wife is one of my biggest assets. she pushes me when i need pushing. she tells me to forget it when i am chasing ghosts. she packages things, organizes, fundraises and handles my biz when i am off the grid.

your point about "why without 110% dedication" is VERY valid. my wife often tells me i am crazy but then the next day comes with me all over town packaging up work to entice some unsuspecting group with $.

[Paul T.]

A good friend of mine worked at one of the stock agencies; he is a designer primarily, but has made a good income from stock. He'll see a bed left in a field, shoot it, and submit it (to his old agency) with the right title: loneliness, decay, etc etc.

A couple years ago he told me what he was making per month; a full time salary, basically. But, sincerely, I can't see anyone here matching his skill set. It's not the photo skills, more the editorial/design ones.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I'm not sure why anyone would you really want to do photography as a job anyway. It's more enjoyable when you don't have to photograph what and how others tell you to. You'd have to be young and intense and dedicate your life to this and forsake meaningful long term relationships.

Because I'd rather shoot myself than work at walmart, which is the only 'real job' left in America.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I can't answer the OP's question, but can provide some data on people trying: at a local restaurant, a photographers works are up on the walls. They look like digital snaps, but are printed on an Epson Inkjet printer on Epson archival paper with K3 inks. He charges around $170-ish for the print plus matte.

The photos are nothing special, homeless people in SF, general mountain and seascape nature photos, mix of color and b/w.

However, framed, he charges about $230, and his nice wooden frames look like the high end ones at walmart which sell for $20-30.

So he may be making a nice markup on the frames, so it seems fair that he allows his prints in 7x10 and 10x14 to be sold sans frames.

I have no idea if the restaurant gets a cut of the sales (if any).

Just because they're on the wall with price tags does not mean any of them actually sell. I exhibited in galleries for years and sold very little. Restaurants and such are even worse for sales. I've sold more off my website in the last year than in 15 years of exhibiting.

[Bike Tourist]

Since I started this, I'll make a few more comments.

Some asked for specifics, hard dollar amounts. OK. In the last five years, with microstock, I have made a minimum of $100+/mo. and a maximum of $290/mo. I might work at it about four hours a week, sometimes not at all. If I didn't keep feeding the beast, the monthly income would immediately drop off. Not much money, but enough to make a few photo purchases every year.

A funny thing dating back many years to when I was represented by a conventional (film) stock agency in Germany. They sold a slide for little inset to Der Spiegel Magazine. When it came time for the editors to return the slide to the agency they couldn't locate it. My arrangement with the stock agency was 50/50 so when the magazine paid the agency $800 for the lost slide I received $400. That's the most, I must confess, that I ever received for a single stock image!

As to the "fine art" photographs on coffee house walls, when is the last time you bought one?

Exactly!

[Steve M.]

I think it's possible, but this particular time in history makes it much harder. If you play the gallery game it's as much about who you know as whether your work is any good or not. I see people self publish their books sometimes, but can't imagine anyone making any appreciable money this way. Then there's working for a commercial photography agency, which I wouldn't do if you held a gun to my head. Stock photography will have you working until your thumbs fall off (assuming you wish to totally make your living from your photography), and you need a good agent to get past the established photographers. So that leaves opening your own enterprise (landscapes, nature, B&W, portraits, etc) or getting into the university grant catching business, a great way to meet some of the most insufferable and full-of-it no talent people on the planet. It's a university you know. Assuming that someone is talented and hard working, maybe best to follow the paths of Edward Weston, Ansel Adams and others by striking out on your own.

[Paddy C]

I'm a graphic designer and use microstock an awful lot. Nobody wants to pay for a photoshoot, and with some of the photographers I've hired in the past I can see why — they tend to suck. And nobody wants to pay "real stock" prices either.

A couple years ago I tried to figure out if people were actually making money through iStockPhoto. This was more on the illustration side as I had an idea I might give it a try. Couldn't figure it out. It looked as if a few, well established people with good portfolios might be doing alright. But the vast majority, I determined, would be better off working at Home Depot.

I should note that I actually ran numbers because this was when iStockPhoto was listing the exact number of times a file had been downloaded. Since illustrations are at a set price, it was easy to calculate what any individual illustration had earned.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Walmart actually pays pretty well, graphic designers make about 75k, full time staff ad photographers, about the same with benefits. Walmart maintains a huge video, and graphics production facility for training. Not that I am suggesting anyone work for Wally, but they pay.

When I say 'work for walmart' I am talking about the realistic jobs that walmart offers, the ones that 95% of their employees have that pay $8 an hour.

The graphic design and photo jobs you mention are few in number and likely occupied by people who will leave them when they die. It has probably been years since they've hired anyone and when they do the job goes to the boss's brother's girlfriend's sister's boyfriend.

[dan denmark]

specialise and find a market.

[cnphoto]

i work for a company that owns a stock business.

there are people making around the $100,000 mark, a very few considerably more, a few a little less. i could probably count all of these people on 4 hands though, in a sea of perhaps hundreds of thousands of contributors? it can be done, of course, but i would assume by those numbers it is not easy. the funny thing is, the images that sell the most usually aren't the pretty artistis photographs but the boring 'pretty girl smiling wearing a telephone headset' 'attractive young business man in suit looking happy' sort of images.

if i ever buy a digital camera again, i imagine i'll approach a small modelling agency and work a trade with them (their models for my headshots) and shoot some of these drab, boring images as an aside to other shoots then upload to a stock library.

[cnphoto]

nobody wants to pay "real stock" prices either.

i hear this 20+ times a day every day of the year. people complaining about the price of stock and how it's SO expensive and how they 'can pay a photographer to shoot a whole load of images for that price and own them outright'.

it seems there are a lot of "semi-pros" who have (or have had to) undercut themselves to stay in "business". or maybe it's Joe Blows aunt's cousin who has a digital camera and knows how to use it, more or less, and likes the sound of making a fast buck. who knows? but still, this is only the small fish. the big companies and design / ad firms still fork out the big $$$ for custom shoots and high quality imagery.

[cnphoto]

been there, done that (film)...just goes to show nothing changes over decades

funnily enough, it really doesn't.

[Roger Hicks]

I'm not sure why anyone would you really want to do photography as a job anyway. It's more enjoyable when you don't have to photograph what and how others tell you to. You'd have to be young and intense and dedicate your life to this and forsake meaningful long term relationships.

Dear Frank,

Not necessarily.

You just have to be prepared to live on very little.

I've met surprisingly many people who do it, especially at Arles. Some are in stable, long-term relationships.

Cheers,

R.

[FrankS]

Welcome back, Roger.

I'm not saying that it can't or isn't being done, I guess it's just not for me. I'm very happy with my amatuer status. I do admire those who have what it takes to make a living with photography, but I wouldn't trade places with very many of them even if that were possible.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Not suggesting you take a job selling cameras!! :eek:

A search of creative jobs at Walmart currently, only shows openings for architects. They seem to contract much of their branding and creative work to agencies.

Pure 9-5 photography jobs are not easy to find, never have been, the vast majority of those I am aware of, have been catalog work.

Then why suggest that people at Walmart make $75,000 a year doing graphics work? That's why I pointed out, as you just admitted, that those jobs are basically impossible to get. Working at walmart for most means making $8 an hour. Not just selling cameras, but running the photo lab, cashiering, stocking shelves, installing tires in the auto center, etc. The only people in a Walmart store who make living wages are the managers and the pharmacists.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Dear Frank,

Not necessarily.

You just have to be prepared to live on very little.

I've met surprisingly many people who do it, especially at Arles. Some are in stable, long-term relationships.

Cheers,

R.

That's harder in the USA. Remember that we have NO social safety net for young men who cannot make enough to live, and women here largely still expect men to support them, especially in the more culturally backward parts of the USA (anywhere in between the east coast states and the west coast states!)

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Or be a millionaire and live on a lot of money.

It all depends on how successful you are. I know photographers who never seem to make money, but have interesting lives, and those who are extremely well off. In the past I tried to understand how each got where they are, but really it is all so mysterious. It is however not just luck.

My students have often asked me about money, and success, and I cannot really offer a clear answer other than relentless dedication, but that is not all there is to it.

I discovered in Santa Fe, that an extremely large percent of the artists there were born into wealth. They had, for the most part, never worked a day in their lives and had no idea what it was like having a job, or running a business (like doing commercial art) or even having to be concerned with money at all. The cost of living is high there, very high, so the trustfunders are about the only ones who can live there and not have real jobs if they are not selling tons of work. I survived by living with a friend and doing a lot of commercial work, which most of the artists out there look down on. I came from a middle class background, I am not too good to work.

[emraphoto]

specialise and find a market.

Words of wisdom folks.

[MatthewThompson]

Or be a millionaire and live on a lot of money.

It all depends on how successful you are. I know independent freelance photographers who never seem to make money, but have interesting lives, and those who are extremely well off. In the past I tried to understand how each got where they are, but really it is all so mysterious. It is however not just luck.

My students have often asked me about money, and success, and I cannot really offer a clear answer other than relentless dedication, but that is not all there is to it.

"Success" is what you aspire to, and it's subjective. I'm happy to grind out 20-30K/a working part time so I can be home with our daughter. I'm sure I could tighten up my book, hire an agent and get to work undercutting photogs from big cities in other provinces, but that's not the lifestyle I aspire to. My income arrives from all angles, weddings to annual reports to kids' sittings and event work for my town hall.

Part of freelancing is being flexible with jobs and income. Nobody likes dropping their drawers to get a job, but I've knocked 10% off a quote to seal the deal. I'd rather work for a dayrate -10% that sit on my but reading RFF. Charging by half- or full-day instead of hourly is another big one. Chances are, if a client wants you for 90-minutes you're going to lose money on the job.

Really, people complaining of being undercut and sitting at the studio waiting for the phone to ring are missing the point of being an entrepreneur in the truest sense of the word. There's plenty of work out there for those who don't pigeon-hole themselves into too tight a niche. On the other hand, there's no work for whiny "starving artists" looking for a handout.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

i find it utterly amazing, in this day and age, with all the TV coming out of the US promoting how much the women are not just equal but , well more...that, you said that, if i were to presume you speak on behalf of your fellow countrymen, utterly amazed! its just not the impression thats being exported by you blokes is all!

What I said is the truth. My fellow countrymen may not be willing to admit it, but that doesn't change the facts.

Where I live women are openly hostile to the feminist ideal of women's equality. Those who do wish to work still expect their husbands to pay the bills. I have a friend who's father and stepmother divorced because his $75,000 a year job couldn't support her in the lifestyle she thought she deserved. This woman is an attorney earning over $200,000 a year but she flat out refuses to pay any part of the house payments or utility bills or any other family expenses. Her money is hers to spend on fancy vacations with her daughter from a previous marriage (my friend and her dad were not included in these trips) and on expensive clothes and purses.

Most women here don't make that kind of money though and haven't any ambition. They just want to be housewives. Most of you know I am a student at Indiana University working on my Masters degree. Last year I had a female professor for a history class who just exploded one day because she heard some of the female students talking of how they're only in school to meet a man who will earn big bucks someday so they can be housewives and live off the guy's work.

She told our class that women like that have no business being university students, that they were a disgrace and their presence in her class made her sick! She told them in no uncertain terms that in her opinion those women were committing fraud by accepting student aid and taking up a place on the class rolls that could be occupied by a person who actually desired an education.

A few days later, I met the professor to discuss a paper I was working on for the class and i mentioned to her that the attitude she railed against was simply part of the local culture. She told me she was not from the midwest and was shocked the first time she heard girls in her classes talk like that, and that she has heard it many times in the few years that she has taught here.

[Roger Hicks]

Or be a millionaire and live on a lot of money.

It all depends on how successful you are. I know independent freelance photographers who never seem to make money, but have interesting lives, and those who are extremely well off. In the past I tried to understand how each got where they are, but really it is all so mysterious. It is however not just luck.

My students have often asked me about money, and success, and I cannot really offer a clear answer other than relentless dedication, but that is not all there is to it.

Dear Fred,

Not JUST luck, certainly. Hard work and an almost fanatical commitment are useful too; or, as you put it, 'relentless dedication'. But hard work and an almost fanatical commitment generally need to be supplemented by luck.

Many years ago, a friend told me that for the first two or three years he knew me, he assumed I had a private income, as I never appeared to work. When he got to know me better...

What I'd say is: if you want to make money, do something else. My brother is a very rich man (houses in London and NY, and a little place in the country in the UK), and he appears to be planning on getting richer. Yeah, I'm planning on getting richer too, but I'm not relying on my plans. The thing is that I'd not swap my life (or wife, or house[s], or anything except the income) with him.

I take my profits in ease. He takes his in cash. We both gamble on our talents, but neither of us bets more than we can afford.

Cheers,

R.

[Livesteamer]

I know one fellow making good money as a photographer. He has an old motorhome parked at the local drag strip with a computer and several printers. He cruises around on a golf cart with a G10 and some dslr's with longer lenses. He takes lots of photos of the cars and drivers and sells 8x10 prints for $15.00 each. It is a weekend job and he has other jobs during the week but he is making money. Joe

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I stand corrected...
It turns out, when I did research just now, that graphic designers and photographers, who work on Walmart branding and campaigns, work for outside agencies. So if you want to work for Walmart, in a creative way, you have to work for a company who works for Walmart. Walmart seems to build their own buildings, but not design their own branding?

I am not sure why you are so fixated on entry level jobs at Wally. I have never thought they served the American worker well, but lets be frank here. Few people with advanced degrees are applying for 8 dollar an hour retail jobs, even in the midst of a recession, if they can avoid it.

I never however look down on anyone doing honest hard work, Walmart sales associates included! I have worked for less than $8 an hour, but what worries me was that was 25 years ago! No one should be earning that today.

Most creatives are more likely to be underemployed, finding fewer freelance hours, or moving endlessly from one agency to another following work. At least this is what my friends are doing.

Times are indeed very scary. And as some of our professional RFF members have pointed out, jobs for professionals are VERY hard to find.

But creative people do find jobs. 35k is certainly more realistic, if you have no corporate work history, for creative jobs.

I'm 'fixated' on low wage retail jobs because THAT'S ALL THERE IS outside NYC. In most parts of the US, people with art degrees have trouble getting ANYONE to hire them at any pay level. That's why I have not had a job since graduating a decade ago (except a few months at a camera store in santa fe, which I left cause I made more money freelancing there) and why most of my classmates never found jobs.

[mh2000]

when I was freelance... I reached this same conclusion... made more money on more enjoyable commercial art projects... then I just got a real job for money and went back to fineart photography and rediscovered my passion for photography... and when I have my stuff in a show, no matter how small, or not selling, it doesn't matter.

A friend of mine is going into fetish photography... apparently that is big now... if that was just my kink, I can see how it would be fun and *rewarding*... but cameras and sex don't do it for me... memories are always so much more forgiving.

:)

Stock photography takes a lot of energy to do I found. I decided my heart was not in it when I saw the returns compared to how much money I could make doing other things.

Actually for the most part, I found my heart not in photography much anymore after doing a few years work in it and now just shoot the odd commercial assignment to supplement the two other jobs I have.

The problem really is the drive and motivation to keep with it even after some slow times. I wish you luck with yours.

I have a friend right now who shoots stock photos in England to get a little money but she shoots mostly nude female body parts so that may be a different idea as well :)

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Chris,

The story you tell is horrifying and I wish I could say I do not believe you - but I do. Your point about rich kid/'artists' has, I think, always been the case.

Do you know the wonderful story of George Bernard Shaw talking to Henry Ford? I quote from memory: "Ah, Mr. Ford, there is the difference between us. You think only about art. I think only about money."

I take a certain pride in writing for one of the magazines for which GBS also wrote: AP.

Cheers,

R.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I'm not whining either. I have a client in Santa Fe who supports me and I'm selling work off my website. I'm relatively poor but I make enough to live and to keep doing the artistic work that I really want to do. I am simply pointing out that for most, its not as easy as a lot of you seem to think. Sure, you can probably make more money in New York, but does NY really need another photographer? This isn't just an issue with artists and photographers. Where I live now 75% of the jobs pay less than $8 an hour. EVERYONE here is hurting BAD. This is NOT because of the recent recession, it has been this way for over 20 years (20 yrs ago the jobs paid less than $6 an hour.....inflation's brought most jobs up to $8).

[Al Patterson]

The best way to make a small fortune in either photography or farming, is to start with a large fortune.

I've hear this said about owning a railroad or an airline as well...

[Roger Hicks]

Over the years I have thought a lot about "luck." As I age, the more I believe some people are simply better at taking advantage [or recognizing] of "luck" than I am.

Everything in life is, after all, chance.

Dear Fred,

I've been thinking a lot about this too, as I get older.

My first conclusion is that opportunity does not knock just once, but an infinite number of times.

My second conclusion comes back to a proverb which I believe to be of Spanish origin, by which I have lived since I heard it: "Take what you want, and pay for it, saieth the Lord."

In other words, I agree with you completely.

Tashi delek.

R.

[Roger Hicks]

I've hear this said about owning a railroad or an airline as well...

Dear Al,

I first heard it of publishing...

Cheers,

R.

[Al Patterson]

Because I'd rather shoot myself than work at walmart, which is the only 'real job' left in America.

Nah, I work at the local Amazon warehouse. We work harder than a WallyMart, for about the same pay...

That said, it does seem that most of the jobs remaining in the USA are retail or some sort.

(I pick books off of shelves and load them onto library carts to deliver them to the sort line)

[Roger Hicks]

Chris I often jokingly say you must leave indiana. :D

Chicago
LA
Seattle
Boston
And thousands of obscure little cities like Redmond or Cupertino, there are jobs for those with advanced art degrees. But I admit the window to take them narrows -- if you do not work when young -- that I have no answer for.

Art degrees are very flexible -- they are so subjective. You can claim to do almost anything creative. Act Like You Know must become your mantra when you have an art degree.
Dear Fred,

Law is even better. It IS a degree in BS.

That's why I chose to read law and study photography in my spare time instead of vice versa. I've never earned a penny from law directly, but by God it has opened some doors.

Cheers,

R. (LL.B.)

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Chris I often jokingly say you must leave indiana. :D

Chicago
LA
Seattle
Boston
And thousands of obscure little cities like Redmond or Cupertino, there are jobs for those with advanced art degrees. But I admit the window to take them narrows -- if you do not work when young -- that I have no answer for.

Art degrees are very flexible -- they are so subjective. You can claim to do almost anything creative. Act Like You Know must become your mantra when you have an art degree.

I know! I'm stuck here for a few more years because of my son, but the split second he has his high school diploma in hand, we're getting the hell out of Fort Waste and going elsewhere. Probably back to New Mexico. I can probably make more money elsewhere but I liked New Mexico.

[Pickett Wilson]

The Wal-Mart here has a really fast turnover in women employees. They get out of high school and then work at Wal-Mart only long enough to get pregnant (without benefit of marriage). Once they are pregnant, they quit, because the WIC, Medicade, Food stamps and subsidized housing kicks in and they no longer have to work. That's the facts in rural America, whatever it is you see on TV. Have a new kid every couple of years and they never have to work again.

[Roger Hicks]

The Wal-Mart here has a really fast turnover in women employees. They get out of high school and then work at Wal-Mart only long enough to get pregnant (without benefit of marriage). Once they are pregnant, they quit, because the WIC, Medicade, Food stamps and subsidized housing kicks in and they no longer have to work. That's the facts in rural America, whatever it is you see on TV. Have a new kid every couple of years and they never have to work again.

Interesting. I didn't know that the Daily Mail had a large readership in the USA.

Cheers,

R.

[Al Patterson]

And here are the questions I asked myself when I was lugging sheetrock up 5 flights of stairs, when I first came to NYC. Was I having fun joking with my buddies, while I worked? Was the work something I was OK with?

I can't answer your question,s but I did take the job at Amazon since my contacts in the IT industry seem to indicate that the number of contracting and full time positions is shrinking, and bills need to be paid.

Besides, 40 hours a week walking around a warehouse at a fairly brisk pace has left me about 20 pounds lighter than when I started in November...

[Lulu Rosenkrantz]

I've never done a real day's work in my life, and somehow I ended up with several million dollars. When I started off in New York at the age of 20 I had $163 in the bank.

I just fool around. Once in a while I edit magazines, then I made some good deals with a marketing deal I put together.

I spend as much time as possible avoiding work as I can. For example, posting on forums like I'm doing now is probably costing me quite a bit of dough.

This week I could have made $27,000 but I was too lazy to lift a finger and finish a copywriting project that's six months late.

Sometimes it's aggravating being so much smarter than you are.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Interesting. I didn't know that the Daily Mail had a large readership in the USA.

Cheers,

R.

He's telling the truth, Roger. The jobs pay so little its the only way a woman who doesn't marry a well-paid man can support herself in many parts of the country. The press likes to demonize those on welfare, but most have no choice. You simply cannot live on $8 an hour here, even in places like Indiana where the cost of living is very low.

Its one of the great injustices in our country though. If a woman has a baby she cannot support, the state sets her up in a life, hands her everything....free housing, free food, cash to spend, and free education if she wants one. If a man has a baby he cannot support, he's a 'deadbeat' and a criminal who is hounded by the courts and often jailed for nothing more than being poor, which is a crime for a man in this country.

[Lulu Rosenkrantz]

Why do you consider yourself a "fine arts photographer"? What suddenly makes you one over a plain old "photographer"?

Do you think calling yourself a "fine arts photographer" makes you one, whatever that is? Does that make you a "better" photographer than a regular crummy photographer?

You are not going to make a living selling prints on a cafe wall in a state where everyone is out of work or making minimum wage.

You moan and groan, but you set yourself for the situation you're in, then you complain how "bad" everything is.

[Pickett Wilson]

LuLu, there are millions of anonymous millionaires posting on web forums. You have been one of them.

Pretty cute, though, taking the name of a notorious mobster hit man.

[Lulu Rosenkrantz]

Hicks is an example of high intellect with deficient self marketing sense.

He's an "authority", but it's coupled with a deficient income and an inability to break out of a niche. I hired many like him, for example, a guy who was an expert on 1950's celebrities. He was a brilliant writer, but could only sell low-paying articles to third rate magazines. He had a couple of breakouts with celebrity biographies that sell well on Amazon, but produce a mediocre income.

Randy Newman said it well:

Of all of the people that I used to know
Most never adjusted to the great big world
I see them lurking in book stores
Working for the Public Radio
Carrying their babies around in a sack on their back
Moving careful and slow

(Chorus)
It's money that matters
Hear what I say
It's money that matters
In the USA

All of these people are much brighter than I
In any fair system they would flourish and thrive
But they barely survive


They eke out a living and they barely survive

Hicks has good knowledge but he's not a commercial success. He sunk enormous amounts of time and energy into his website, for example, which was not a moneymaker.

He sold a number of manuscripts to middling specialist publishers. These projects are published but pay very modest advances, and royalties are few and far between. They make for OK credentials, but little else.

A column in a UK photo magazine? Again, good for the reputation but not the pocketbook. I would be shocked if he made over £200 per column, probably much less.

So how does one compensate for financial foibles? Ego. One must feel (and convince oneself) that one is superior and of high intellect, perhaps by becoming an authority notable by his postings on a forum. The only alternative is the gaspipe.

I would not be wanting to leave late middle age and embark on my senior years with a few pennies coming in from a dubious column and a few teetering book deals.

Or exile to a Northern country with a civil service job, offset by lower expenses.

In these cases, hobbies are a blessing because you can immerse yourself in camera fetishism rather than contemplate your future as aging non-successes in a hostile, expensive world.

It's frightening and you can see the middle class being mercilessly ripped off by huge, out of control central governments.

It can't end well.

[djonesii]

I've hear this said about owning a railroad or an airline as well...


And in the oil business as well!

[Bike Tourist]

i've heard those phrases you said many times in movies etc, no doubt it is deeply ingrained in USA culture...not to argue, but in support and understanding i and i am sure most aussies would say the same thing, we have (as long as we can remember) a similar culture where we all say to our own families (kids) that anything, absolutely anything is possible here, there is absolutely no limits to what can be done!

everyone can own their own home and make a million if they have the gumption to do so (of course we know that people from the poorer areas dont do so well, but on the other hand every Aussie can pick out half a dozen current 'poor' people that did make it, next month there might be another half dozen...meanwhile everyone else works to better themselves or is happy with what what they do,,,(sure there are those that are miserable, we call them the poms LOL)...

i am not sure what the answer is, its not as if our politicians are giving us any better visions than yours are, maybe we just all know and are united in knowing how crappy our blokes are that we feel better and just keep going...we dont need a wild west ;)


I will be complicit in following this thread veering inevitably toward economics and our place in the social order. I think the romantic "cowboy mentality" which obtained for so long in the United States and Australia has finally run up against the reality of huge populations and diminishing resources.

Those with vested interests in the status quo will deny and rationalize and manipulate in order to prolong their life based upon the current model. But I don't think it can be sustained. It takes additional resources to build another strip mall, and it occupies more land that could have been farmed and it requires more people — more consumers.

At some point the planet says no. That's enough.

The logical extension is not, "Can I make a living in photography?" but simply, "Can I make a living?"

I'm glad I'm retired!

[Paul T.]

Hicks is an example of high intellect with deficient self marketing sense.

He's an "authority", but it's coupled with a deficient income and an inability to break out of a niche. I hired many like him, for example, a guy who was an expert on 1950's celebrities. He was a brilliant writer, but could only sell low-paying articles to third rate magazines. He had a couple of breakouts with celebrity biographies that sell well on Amazon, but produce a mediocre income.

Randy Newman said it well:

Of all of the people that I used to know
Most never adjusted to the great big world
I see them lurking in book stores
Working for the Public Radio
Carrying their babies around in a sack on their back
Moving careful and slow

(Chorus)
It's money that matters
Hear what I say
It's money that matters
In the USA

All of these people are much brighter than I
In any fair system they would flourish and thrive
But they barely survive


They eke out a living and they barely survive

Hicks has good knowledge but he's not a commercial success. He sunk enormous amounts of time and energy into his website, for example, which was not a moneymaker.

He sold a number of manuscripts to middling specialist publishers. These projects are published but pay very modest advances, and royalties are few and far between. They make for OK credentials, but little else.

A column in a UK photo magazine? Again, good for the reputation but not the pocketbook. I would be shocked if he made over £200 per column, probably much less.

So how does one compensate for financial foibles? Ego. One must feel (and convince oneself) that one is superior and of high intellect, perhaps by becoming an authority notable by his postings on a forum. The only alternative is the gaspipe.

I would not be wanting to leave late middle age and embark on my senior years with a few pennies coming in from a dubious column and a few teetering book deals.

Or a warehouse job at Amazon either.

Or exile to a Northern country with a civil service job, offset by lower expenses.

In these cases, hobbies are a blessing because you can immerse yourself in camera fetishism rather than contemplate your future as aging non-successes in a hostile, expensive world.

It's frightening and you can see the middle class being mercilessly ripped off by huge, out of control central governments.

It can't end well.

Well, you just wrote that and didn't make a penny on it - so you're more stupid than him!

Gotta go. I'm on $2.50 a word and you've cost me more than you're worth.

[Pickett Wilson]

Dick, I've got to agree with you. I'm glad, at almost 60, that the bulk of my life was lived in a different time. If I was a young man facing the obstacles the future holds now, I'm afraid I would live in despair. There are a lot of young people struggling not only with the future, but with making a decent living today.

[MatthewThompson]

Dick, I've got to agree with you. I'm glad, at almost 60, that the bulk of my life was lived in a different time. If I was a young man facing the obstacles the future holds now, I'm afraid I would live in despair. There are a lot of young people struggling not only with the future, but with making a decent living today.

The concept of a "decent living" has more to do with how and why we live than a bank balance. If your priorities are a half-million dollar home and two new SUVs and you're two paychecks from poverty, you're going to have to sleep in the bed you make eventually.

I'm not one to settle for mediocrity, but working 60 hours a week and letting the government raise your kids is counterintuitive. Are people living heir lives, or are people's lives living them? I enjoy working as a photographer because of the variety, flexibility and creative aspect (within the bounds of commercial work, of course).

I've got no illusions on my prospects, but then I don't aspire to wealth and fortune. I want to enjoy my working years, be outdoors with my family and friends. I aspire to cook from a refrigerator full of real food, see some of the world when it's convenient and not worry about next month's bills. That's not how a lot of people think these days; I understand I'm in the minority.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

The concept of a "decent living" has more to do with how and why we live than a bank balance. If your priorities are a half-million dollar home and two new SUVs and you're two paychecks from poverty, you're going to have to sleep in the bed you make eventually.

I'm not one to settle for mediocrity, but working 60 hours a week and letting the government raise your kids is counterintuitive. Are people living heir lives, or are people's lives living them? I enjoy working as a photographer because of the variety, flexibility and creative aspect (within the bounds of commercial work, of course).

I've got no illusions on my prospects, but then I don't aspire to wealth and fortune. I want to enjoy my working years, be outdoors with my family and friends. I aspire to cook from a refrigerator full of real food, see some of the world when it's convenient and not worry about next month's bills. That's not how a lot of people think these days; I understand I'm in the minority.

I agree with you on the greed that makes people work long hours for silly luxuries, but I don't think you understand that millions of young people, a huge percent of whom have university degrees, are working jobs that in many cases pay 1/3 to 1/2 the bare minimum cost of living. 70% of the jobs that exist in my home city pay less than $9 an hour, while the cost of living here just to put a roof over your head and food in your stomach requires you to earn about $2000 a month before taxes. You simply cannot survive on less unless you live with your parents or you go on welfare (and welfare here is only for women with young children, it will not help men at all nor will it help intact families or women without kids). That $2000 a month works out to $12.50 an hour for fulltime work, and it will support one person, no children. Its even worse in places where cost of living is far higher than here in Indiana (one of the cheapest places in the USA to live). In many American cities, rents are 3-4 times what they are here, yet pay is not much higher.

[MatthewThompson]

I agree with you on the greed that makes people work long hours for silly luxuries, but I don't think you understand that millions of young people, a huge percent of whom have university degrees, are working jobs that in many cases pay 1/3 to 1/2 the bare minimum cost of living. 70% of the jobs that exist in my home city pay less than $9 an hour, while the cost of living here just to put a roof over your head and food in your stomach requires you to earn about $2000 a month before taxes. You simply cannot survive on less unless you live with your parents or you go on welfare (and welfare here is only for women with young children, it will not help men at all nor will it help intact families or women without kids). That $2000 a month works out to $12.50 an hour for fulltime work, and it will support one person, no children. Its even worse in places where cost of living is far higher than here in Indiana (one of the cheapest places in the USA to live). In many American cities, rents are 3-4 times what they are here, yet pay is not much higher.

Adapt. You're only a victim of your circumstance if you fail to take responsibility and action. Move to where you can use your field of expertise. If you can't move, change your expertise. Swing a hammer in Corpus Christie if that's what it takes. Wait tables in Spain. Be a tour guide in Bali. If you can't move or change, you're not thinking hard enough about how to make your situation work. Maybe it's doing a few different things part time.

I'm not talking about greed. If somebody wants those nice things, it's their right and privilege to work their asses off to get it. There are degrees of success, but as I said, it's a personal journey. If what I chose as a profession made me wealthy and happy, well bully for me. It just happens my choice in occupation doesn't make wealth, but offers time and flexibility. Different individuals place priorities as they will. Don't think for a second that if I considered myself "poor" or was worried about making the mortgage payment I wouldn't be out digging ditches, pumping gas or bagging groceries in a New York Minute.

I don't think that you understand that a university degree is not a ticket to a job-for-life like it was in the 60's. A BA, MFA, MBA or anything else you can reel of doesn't entitle people to a carer, a living, nice home or happiness. If you're unemployed for a decade, that's not anyone's choice but your own. If you'd go hungry before working for $8 an hour at Walmart or otherwise, you're part of the trouble and not part of the solution. The definition of delusion is repeating the same actions and expecting a different outcome.

No offense, Chris. You're sounding like a broken record. Being an entrepreneur (like this thread is about, in my opinion) is about flexibility, opportunity and making smart moves in a timely fashion.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Adapt. You're only a victim of your circumstance if you fail to take responsibility and action. Move to where you can use your field of expertise. If you can't move, change your expertise. Swing a hammer in Corpus Christie if that's what it takes. Wait tables in Spain. Be a tour guide in Bali. If you can't move or change, you're not thinking hard enough about how to make your situation work. Maybe it's doing a few different things part time.

I'm not talking about greed. If somebody wants those nice things, it's their right and privilege to work their asses off to get it. There are degrees of success, but as I said, it's a personal journey. If what I chose as a profession made me wealthy and happy, well bully for me. It just happens my choice in occupation doesn't make wealth, but offers time and flexibility. Different individuals place priorities as they will. Don't think for a second that if I considered myself "poor" or was worried about making the mortgage payment I wouldn't be out digging ditches, pumping gas or bagging groceries in a New York Minute.

I don't think that you understand that a university degree is not a ticket to a job-for-life like it was in the 60's. A BA, MFA, MBA or anything else you can reel of doesn't entitle people to a carer, a living, nice home or happiness. If you're unemployed for a decade, that's not anyone's choice but your own. If you'd go hungry before working for $8 an hour at Walmart or otherwise, you're part of the trouble and not part of the solution. The definition of delusion is repeating the same actions and expecting a different outcome.

No offense, Chris. You're sounding like a broken record. Being an entrepreneur (like this thread is about, in my opinion) is about flexibility, opportunity and making smart moves in a timely fashion.

What you've written is patently false. I cannot move without giving up custody of my son, sorry, won't do it. Oh hell, I'm not sorry. Working for $8 an hour didn't work because EVEN WALMART AND McDONALD'S and other low wage places WOULD NOT HIRE ME. I Tried! It wasn't my choice that no one would hire me. Let me make this crystal clear, you'd be picking your teeth off the ground. Our country's rulers have destroyed the economy of this country and people like that then spit on the victims and tell them its their own fault.

In any case, I no longer need or want a job. My income from my photography is enough to support myself and my son. I was talking about my past experience and what MILLIONS of hard working Americans experience now. Its all their fault that most of the decent jobs have been exported and the rest devalued to starvation levels? Bull****. Your time is coming. The parasite class in this country won't rest until every citizen has been reduced to beggary. I've seen a lot of you holier-than-though conservatard fools lose everything here in the last year and some of them are actually starting to understand.

Its too bad that reality doesn't support your politics, but it is what it is.

[Roger Hicks]

Hicks is an example of high intellect with deficient self marketing sense.

He's an "authority", but it's coupled with a deficient income and an inability to break out of a niche. I hired many like him, for example, a guy who was an expert on 1950's celebrities. He was a brilliant writer, but could only sell low-paying articles to third rate magazines. He had a couple of breakouts with celebrity biographies that sell well on Amazon, but produce a mediocre income.

Randy Newman said it well:

Of all of the people that I used to know
Most never adjusted to the great big world
I see them lurking in book stores
Working for the Public Radio
Carrying their babies around in a sack on their back
Moving careful and slow

(Chorus)
It's money that matters
Hear what I say
It's money that matters
In the USA

All of these people are much brighter than I
In any fair system they would flourish and thrive
But they barely survive


They eke out a living and they barely survive

Hicks has good knowledge but he's not a commercial success. He sunk enormous amounts of time and energy into his website, for example, which was not a moneymaker.

He sold a number of manuscripts to middling specialist publishers. These projects are published but pay very modest advances, and royalties are few and far between. They make for OK credentials, but little else.

A column in a UK photo magazine? Again, good for the reputation but not the pocketbook. I would be shocked if he made over £200 per column, probably much less.

So how does one compensate for financial foibles? Ego. One must feel (and convince oneself) that one is superior and of high intellect, perhaps by becoming an authority notable by his postings on a forum. The only alternative is the gaspipe.

I would not be wanting to leave late middle age and embark on my senior years with a few pennies coming in from a dubious column and a few teetering book deals.

Or a warehouse job at Amazon either.

Or exile to a Northern country with a civil service job, offset by lower expenses.

In these cases, hobbies are a blessing because you can immerse yourself in camera fetishism rather than contemplate your future as aging non-successes in a hostile, expensive world.

It's frightening and you can see the middle class being mercilessly ripped off by huge, out of control central governments.

It can't end well.

Thanks for the backhanded compliments.

Actually I've had the opportunity to break out of the niches, but it's never really worked out. As you say, it's not what I want to do or am good at. 'Self marketing' generally suits best the people of very limited talent and very strong ego.

There's a modest change of direction under way at the moment -- look at the new home page on the site -- and I'm also trying to sell some fiction. I am not convinced it'll work, but what's the alternative?

The idea of the 'information society' pisses me off mightily. What is information worth? Nothing. People prefer free rubbish to genuine expertise that actually costs them even a penny. The 'information society' gives money to those who control the means of distribution.

If you're interested in becoming my agent, I'm all ears.

Cheers,

R.

[Philly]

You joke, but seriously you are a marketable commodity.

Like Velveeta?

That sells very well.:D

[Dave Wilkinson]

The diversity of useful information on RFF grows ever wider! - we now have people with intimate knowledge of our financial status, our achievements, failures and aspirations (or lack of) in life, as well as employment and travel consultants, and of course the foretelling of future events!. Now I'm getting the impression that - if I had called myself an 'artist', I could have avoided doing a 'proper job' for fifty years!:D....I just feel so humble when logging on, lately!;)
Dave.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

OK lets see what jobs for MFA's exist in Fort Wayne, Indiana?

It does not look good, only two right now.

But cast your eyes a bit south -- to Cincinnati and the jobs multiply. I found many jobs, especially on Craigslist, which any with any MFA should be able to handle. Cincinnati is a nice place, my brother attended music conservatory there.

Cincinnati is a beautiful city. Like I said, I'm stuck in Indiana till my son turns 18. The courts won't let me leave the state without his mother's permission. Given that I REALLY want to go back to Santa Fe, she'll never give that. I doubt she'd give us permission even to go to Ohio because she sees him often now that she's out of the mental hospital, and she wouldn't be able to if i moved from Ft. Wayne. I can legally go anywhere in Indiana, but the rest of the state, including Indianapolis, is the same as Ft. Wayne....bad economy.

Might as well stay here so my son can stay in school with his friends and can see his mother. I'm in school again and halfway through my MA so I want to finish that too. My son will be 18 a few months before he graduates from high school, so we'll stay here till he has his diploma. I plan to research other places to live heavily as we get closer (5 more years). Where I go will depend on where economic opportunity is, and where my son wants to go to college. Indiana has some great universities, but I'm going to encourage him to go to school out of state so we can leave and I can try to make a living and help him through school.

[ampguy]

If it helps to lift your spirits, I can try to find a link to a Neil Young cover tune that a friend of mine recorded, that mentions something about Santa Fe. He is trying to learn to play the geetar.

Cincinnati is a beautiful city. Like I said, I'm stuck in Indiana till my son turns 18. The courts won't let me leave the state without his mother's permission. Given that I REALLY want to go back to Santa Fe, she'll never give that. I doubt she'd give us permission even to go to Ohio because she sees him often now that she's out of the mental hospital, and she wouldn't be able to if i moved from Ft. Wayne. I can legally go anywhere in Indiana, but the rest of the state, including Indianapolis, is the same as Ft. Wayne....bad economy.

Might as well stay here so my son can stay in school with his friends and can see his mother. I'm in school again and halfway through my MA so I want to finish that too. My son will be 18 a few months before he graduates from high school, so we'll stay here till he has his diploma. I plan to research other places to live heavily as we get closer (5 more years). Where I go will depend on where economic opportunity is, and where my son wants to go to college. Indiana has some great universities, but I'm going to encourage him to go to school out of state so we can leave and I can try to make a living and help him through school.

[kuzano]

Like Velveeta?

That sells very well.:D

Isn't Velveeta the Government Surplus Cheese that is given away for free.

I grew up on sandwiches made from white (balloon?) bread, velveeta slices and mustard made by my dad. Once a week we got a treat and the mustard was horseradish mustard.

[MatthewThompson]

What you've written is patently false. I cannot move without giving up custody of my son, sorry, won't do it. Oh hell, I'm not sorry. Working for $8 an hour didn't work because EVEN WALMART AND McDONALD'S and other low wage places WOULD NOT HIRE ME. I Tried! It wasn't my choice that no one would hire me. Let me make this crystal clear, you'd be picking your teeth off the ground. Our country's rulers have destroyed the economy of this country and people like that then spit on the victims and tell them its their own fault.

In any case, I no longer need or want a job. My income from my photography is enough to support myself and my son. I was talking about my past experience and what MILLIONS of hard working Americans experience now. Its all their fault that most of the decent jobs have been exported and the rest devalued to starvation levels? Bull****. Your time is coming. The parasite class in this country won't rest until every citizen has been reduced to beggary. I've seen a lot of you holier-than-though conservatard fools lose everything here in the last year and some of them are actually starting to understand.

Its too bad that reality doesn't support your politics, but it is what it is.

Thanks for the tantrum and slander. It certainly makes your argument more credible. That said, congratulations on sustaining yourself solely though the fruits of your art. I sincerely wish you well.

[Pickett Wilson]

So, you quote it back so Lulu can take another slap at Roger from beyond the grave. That makes sense. A new strategy. Personal attack by Proxy.

[gdi]

So, you quote it back so Lulu can take another slap at Roger from beyond the grave. That makes sense. A new strategy. Personal attack by Proxy.

Read much?

If you did you would see I cut out references to any names in the quote (unlike others above).

[Paul T.]

Read much?

If you did you would see I cut out references to any names in the quote (unlike others above).

I disagree. This was one of the nastiest posts we've had on rff, that seeks to denigrate someone's life and make them feel a failure. It was probably inspired by jealousy, for the person in question has at least maintained a career based around photography, without particularly compromising, which is an achievement in itself.

I empathise, anyway.

I've made my career in the creative arts for 25 years, but with all the copyright landgrabs going on, a drop in rates (recently halved by some major publishers), and a crisis in book publishing - which funded me quite nicely, with another year to go, I'm wondering whether now is the time for a graceful exit, and to start at the bottom in a new career.

If I do, no regrets, plenty of better people than me have gone crazy doing what I do.

[gdi]

I disagree. This was one of the nastiest posts we've had on rff, that seeks to denigrate someone's life and make them feel a failure. It was probably inspired by jealousy, for the person in question has at least maintained a career based around photography, without particularly compromising, which is an achievement in itself.

I empathise, anyway.



Thanks for your viewpoint - I was wondering if others really saw this as so insulting as to warrant banning. It is a judgment call, but I see many other posts insulting people just as offensive. A lot of it depends, I am sure, as to who's ox is being gored at any particular moment.

[Bike Tourist]

I've made my career in the creative arts for 25 years, but with all the copyright landgrabs going on, a drop in rates (recently halved by some major publishers), and a crisis in book publishing - which funded me quite nicely, with another year to go, I'm wondering whether now is the time for a graceful exit, and to start at the bottom in a new career.

If I do, no regrets, plenty of better people than me have gone crazy doing what I do.

Is the publishing rate drop due to the sad economic times or the incursion of microstock, do you think?

[Paul T.]

Is the publishing rate drop due to the sad economic times or the incursion of microstock, do you think?

I"m talking writing; I got an email this morning from a pretty well known writer, who mentioned that the Daily Telegraph group halved their writing rates a year ago - there was a drop in photography day rates, although I don't know the details.

The publishing industry - books and magazines - are in the throes of a profound panic. THey are responding to this by attacking their contributors, those who create the words and pictures which make them their money.

[Roger Hicks]

I disagree. This was one of the nastiest posts we've had on rff, that seeks to denigrate someone's life and make them feel a failure. It was probably inspired by jealousy, for the person in question has at least maintained a career based around photography, without particularly compromising, which is an achievement in itself.

I empathise, anyway.

I've made my career in the creative arts for 25 years, but with all the copyright landgrabs going on, a drop in rates (recently halved by some major publishers), and a crisis in book publishing - which funded me quite nicely, with another year to go, I'm wondering whether now is the time for a graceful exit, and to start at the bottom in a new career.

If I do, no regrets, plenty of better people than me have gone crazy doing what I do.

Dear Paul,

Thanks for the support. Actually, I saw 'Lulu' as the failure. I'm not the one hiding behind a series of silly names, and I'm not the one attacking someone else's means of earning a living while keeping very quiet about what I do -- at which, it is hard not to suspect, he is a failure, or he'd not be so bitter. Nor am I struggling under a pile of debt: I own my house free and clear, my vehicles...

I completely agree about your view of publishing, but then, I would, wouldn't I, having earned a living from writing and photography for over three decades. The only other think I think I could have done as happily is teaching, but that's a lot more like hard work and doesn't involve anything like as much travel. I've just come back from a couple of weeks in the French and Spanish Pyrenees: on a shoestring, it's true, but it beats commuting to work every day. Or indeed getting up early in the morning.

There are many ways to fail, after all. I know some very rich people who are, from my point of view, failures because all they do is work non-stop at an unattractive job to fund the purchase of yet more meaningless stuff. Meaningless, that is, to me: more cars, fashionable clothes, second homes, $5000 kitchen refits every two or three years.

Cheers,

R.

[emraphoto]

i believe the landscape is about to change again. perhaps "hope" is a better word for it?

there seems to be a scramble to re-position oneself as a result of the new technology arriving on the scene. ipad etc.

i am apologetic up front as i cannot get into details (confidentiality agreement) yet but i am currently signing on board with an international magazine focused on this technology with a very interesting contributors model. i do hope i can share it with you as i have never encountered an "agreement" of this sorts and it involves regular work with decent re-numeration.

i am still to this day confident that the media we once knew will pull through. will it look completely different? most certainly. the industry (and i mean this in a very broad sense) has been bloated with mediocrity for a very long time and the viewing public (aka customers) have placed an appropriate value on it.

[antiquark]

I was wondering if others really saw this as so insulting as to warrant banning. It is a judgment call, but I see many other posts insulting people just as offensive. A lot of it depends, I am sure, as to who's ox is being gored at any particular moment.

If you're just calling someone a "moron" in the forum, that's part of the acceptable trash talk of the internet.

However, to dig into someone's personal life, then post the details here, then criticize them as being a lifelong failure... that's just going too far.

[Roger Hicks]

If you're just calling someone a "moron" in the forum, that's part of the acceptable trash talk of the internet.

However, to dig into someone's personal life, then post the details here, then criticize them as being a lifelong failure... that's just going too far.

Dear Derek,

Thanks for the support, but the 'details' weren't very accurate. Perhaps more to the point, as I said earlier, there are lots of different ways to fail, and lots of different ways to succeed. I hesitate to accuse anyone of failing, as long as they're reasonaby happy and able to support themselves. Even then, failure to support yourself can be bad luck as easily as bad judgement.

I do however agree that deliberately trying to be extremely nasty is a reasonable cause for being banned.

Cheers,

R.

[Andy Kibber]

Actually, I saw 'Lulu' as the failure. I'm not the one hiding behind a series of silly names, [...]

Roger,

You make fair points for the most part but I don't think folks should be chastised for using pseudonyms. Not everyone wants their personal details splayed on internet forums.

-Andy

[antiquark]

Thanks for the support, but the 'details' weren't very accurate.

Sorry, I should have also mentioned that I didn't have much faith in the accuracy of the "details."

Even so, posting inaccurate personal details is akin to spreading rumors, which would be another example of bad forum etiquette.

[emraphoto]

I don't see the media as bloated with mediocrity, our expectations are simply evolving. It is the nature of media to evolve, as distribution changes. Mathew Brady successfully chronicled the civil war, but was forced to sell his studio and declare bankruptcy. It is hard to foresee the future, you just do the work.

i am going to have to respectfully maintain my "bloated and mediocre" vibe Fred.

the sheer commonality of the work coming out of Haiti leads me in this direction. well a few years of press work will most certainly be a part of the equation as well.

i apologize as i MUST finish some work here first however i will support my thoughts in an hour or two.

[Paul T.]

Roger,

You make fair points for the most part but I don't think folks should be chastised for using pseudonyms. Not everyone wants their personal details splayed on internet forums.

-Andy

I wouldn't worry about the banned poster. As well as being a connected mobster, he was a multi-millionaire, so should be able to buy his own photography forum, where he can hold forth and provide career advice.

[Roger Hicks]

Roger,

You make fair points for the most part but I don't think folks should be chastised for using pseudonyms. Not everyone wants their personal details splayed on internet forums.

-Andy

Dear Andy,

Fair enough, though I've never quite understood what they're afraid of. It is usually quite easy to find out what you want to know about someone, if you care. An awful lot of people tend to assume that the world in general is far more interested in their affairs than is, in fact, the case.

What does annoy me, though, is when someone keeps inventing pseudonyms because they've been so unpleasant under a previous pseudonym that they were banned. It's the classic 'being rude on the internet' scenario, where people post things on-line that they'd never dare say to someone's face. If people were required to use their own names, they might pause to reflect a little more on what they're saying.

Cheers,

R.

[kuzano]

Dear Paul,

Thanks for the support. Actually, I saw 'Lulu' as the failure. I'm not the one hiding behind a series of silly names, and I'm not the one attacking someone else's means of earning a living while keeping very quiet about what I do -- at which, it is hard not to suspect, he is a failure, or he'd not be so bitter.

How interesting, especially when you consider the source of the name Lulu Rosenkrantz.

This is Wikipedia on "Lulu".

Bernard "Lulu" Rosenkrantz (1902 - 1935) was a New York mobster and a high ranking member within Dutch Schultz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Schultz)'s organization. Serving as bodyguard and chauffeur, he was gunned down along with Schultz, Otto Berman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Berman) and Abraham Landau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Landau) at the Palace Chophouse in Newark, New Jersey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark,_New_Jersey) on October 23, 1935.

The story goes on that Lulu, and two other body guards, plus Dutch Shultz were caught in a hail of gunfire in the bathroom of the Chophouse. Dutch died of peritonitis on the operating table and Lulu died of his wounds (6 or 7 including two shotgun blasts) an hour after Dutch.

Interesting side note: There is the term "stupid enough to take a knife to a gun fight". Well, it's noted that Dutch, standing at the urinal with one hand occupied, was able to reach in his pocket and pull out a switch blade knife when the shooting started.... The only weapon he took to dinner that night.

Whoever Lulu really is begs the question of his/her reverence for such people.

[apconan]

I disagree. This was one of the nastiest posts we've had on rff,

Everyone seems so offended by Lulu's post.
However, if you are trying to sell your expertise and yourself to other people, as Roger is, then it is only right that people can examine the validity of that expertise.

[Philly]

Everyone seems so offended by Lulu's post.
However, if you are trying to sell your expertise and yourself to other people, as Roger is, then it is only right that people can examine the validity of that expertise.

Furthermore I did not see anything invalid or inaccurate in Lulu's post.

I've seen Roger (and others) get far more inflammatory, in fact one member in a recent thread threatened to knock another member's teeth out if he met him on the street.

[Dave Wilkinson]

Furthermore I did not see anything invalid or inaccurate in Lulu's post.

I've seen Roger (and others) get far more inflammatory, in fact one member in a recent thread threatened to knock another member's teeth out if he met him on the street. this happens quite frequently - on the net, when one member knows that he will almost certainly never meet the other!, and just emphasises the futility of some of the exchanges that occur! :)

[Roger Hicks]

Furthermore I did not see anything invalid or inaccurate in Lulu's post.

I've seen Roger (and others) get far more inflammatory, in fact one member in a recent thread threatened to knock another member's teeth out if he met him on the street.

Um... The 'details' of his 'analysis' of my life, couched in denigratory terms, were actually fairly inaccurate, inflammatory and unpleasant. Rather more so, in some ways, than merely calling someone an idiot and threatening to knock their teeth out. The latter, we all accept, is 'mere puff' (Carlill v The Carbolic Smokeball Comany, 1892 1 QB 256) whereas the former is calculated nastiness.

As I said in my original response to his post, there is some truth in what he says. On the other hand, as someone else said, to accuse someone (in effect) of being a 'lifelong failure' is pretty nasty. At first I though he was merely an incompetent writer, making valid points rudely and unpleasantly. The alternative is that he can read and write, and was being deliberately unpleasant. From subsequent PMs this seems more likeky.

And as I said in another post, who is the failure? Who is hiding behind a borrowed name? A name, I now learn, borrowed from a (deservedly) dead gangster? Someone who reveals NO details of how he earns his living, and how successful he is at it? Has he ever been offered a teaching post at a university, for example (I have)?

As apconan says, let's examine the validity of the expertise. Mine is in my books, my articles, my columns, my websites. Where is his? I've never pretended I'm a rich man, but equally, I've kept my head above water for 30+ years by doing what I love, without (to quote again) too much compromise, and I don't owe anyone a penny.

The only thing I worry about is how lucky I've been, and how well I'm placed. I sometimes think it can't last. But maybe it can. because I'm quite good at what I do. Today, for example, I sold another article to a Land Rover magazine. Not a fortune, but it's income, and the money comes from (a) travel, which I love, (b) writing, which I love and (c) photography, which I love.

Again I say: who's the failure?

Cheers,

R.

[Philly]

... On the other hand, as someone else said, to accuse someone (in effect) of being a 'lifelong failure' is pretty nasty.


After checking his post again I can't see where he accuses you of being a "lifelong failure".
Perhaps you're reading more into it.

[Roger Hicks]

After checking his post again I can't see where he accuses you of being a "lifelong failure".
Perhaps you're reading more into it.

Well, as I said, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt in my original reply. Others read more into it and I begin to suspect that their reading is more appropriate to his intention than mine.

If I'm wrong, and he's merely not very good at expressing himself (which is entirely possible) then I revert to the stance expressed in my original reply.

Cheers,

R.

[Philly]

Others read more into it and I begin to suspect that their reading is more appropriate to his intention than mine.


So you accuse him because of what others read into his post?

As you like it, you're the pro.

[Al Patterson]

Well, Lulu, or whoever that chicken REALLY is took a shot at my taking a warehouse job to pay the bills. (And yes, the IT industry is turning around).

I doubt this "Lulu" loser has ever done a hard days work. I'll also bet if he sold as many articles to Shutterbug as Roger has, he's be bragging about it. Jealous maybe? Who knows?

Good riddance to bad rubbish I say...

[antiquark]

After checking his post again I can't see where he accuses you of being a "lifelong failure".
Perhaps you're reading more into it.

Maybe you're looking at the wrong post. The offensive post was #76. (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1276646&postcount=76)

(Which I hope the moderators don't delete, as it provides an object example of why people get banned.)

[back alley]

Thanks for your viewpoint - I was wondering if others really saw this as so insulting as to warrant banning. It is a judgment call, but I see many other posts insulting people just as offensive. A lot of it depends, I am sure, as to who's ox is being gored at any particular moment.

being banned was not based on this thread.

lulu is a loser who keeps coming back under different names with the sole purpose of insulting others.

he is the victim of a high intellect and a low brow.

[emraphoto]

Something tells me it isn't a bunch of "video kids". I would hazard a guess that "lulu" is a long ways away from kid.

[jack palmer]

I got a BFA in Photography from the Maryland Institute College of Art back in the 70's and knew before I finished that it was no way to make a living. At least not for me. Moved to Califonia in my 20's and painted houses before I landed a job in a custom furniture shop. I realized that with my Art education and the fact that I was pretty good working with my hands, that this was a pretty creative and enjoyable way to make a living. I moved back to Baltimore in 1980 and started my own shop. I just retired 8 months ago although I still build furniture because I still enjoy it. It's amazing how many men (or women) can't even hang a shelf. We've lost something in this country, with vocational programs in high schools being cut. No one wants to work with their hands anymore. Go to any construction site anymore and it's mostly Mexicans. There's still a makket for high end custom cabinet makers and they command prices to match. I've enjoyed every minute of it but it's hard , demanding work, that requires the skills of owner, manager , accounting, saleperson, as well as being good at your craft. Photograpy has always been a hobby, I knew early on that I would never be able to make a living doing photography. I admire anyone that can.

[Bike Tourist]

I couldn't sleep this night, the hefty rain woke me up. So I started checking my favorite forums. Landed here. Saw the title and thought: well, looks interesting at these bad economic times. Jumped to the last page.

I can't believe it. Is this WAR?

It is so sad that people don't have better things to do than to insult others? Though I know the Internet already changed society and behavior, I am shocked to see what is going on here.

It appears to me that only the truly professionals and people who live their dreams with satisfaction and dignity like Roger Hicks try to stand up and be honest to do the best to 'iron out the waves' as we say in German.

Whatever happened here, I am not going to read it. The last page was enough. More than enough to know that this is turned into another playground for some brainless and lunatic game shooters, video kids, a generation that doesn't know the 'traditional rules' or 'good taste' anymore.

Very sad to see how everything changed. No, not just sad. It's a nightmare for me to see how rude people and society turned over the last months.

My advice: open your eyes (as real photographers you should know how to do that, don't you?), get back to reality and out of the virtual world. Act as if you are looking 'the other guy' straight into the eyes!

It is so disgusting here... no, not only here, in many forums to be honest. That makes me sick and forces me to think if I should abandon the forums I have subscribed to in the future. I have better and more important tasks waiting for me to survive the bad economical situation.

Dear toyotadesigner —

Maybe a name you don't want to take credit for, right now? Ha, ha, just a joke, really. My wife drives a Lexus. I'm car free and bike dependent. Usually.

When I started this thread, hardly an original one, I was surprised at the vitriol it engendered. After all, photography is, in most cases, a spectator sport and most of us are interested in some exposure and remuneration.

I tried to get it back on track several times but the damage was already done. I do think you should go back and read some of the earlier posts because there is a lot of fascinating information there, at least for me.

I have always liked RFF for the civil discourse here in opposition to the unadulterated crap that passes for discussion on some other boards. So, I hope this time it's just an anomaly and we'll be back in the future to talk about what interests us.