View Full Version : Adobe; that does it!
We Europeans are furious at Adobe. The company has just run a C4 campaign directed only at American and Canadian customers selling a SC4 for only $ 299,00.
See link: https://store4.adobe.com/cfusion/store/index.cfm?&&store=OLS-US&view=ols_prod&category=/SpecialPages/PhotoshopOffer&trackingid=FCGGQ#loc=en_us&view=ols_prod&store=OLS-US&category=/SpecialPages/PhotoshopOffer
While we Europeans must pay $ 1,100 - 1,200 (ex VAT):
https://store5.adobe.com/cfusion/store/html/index.cfm?store=OLS-NO&event=displayProduct&categoryPath=/Applications/Photoshop&distributionMethod=FULL
The official explanation is that 'Europeans earn more and are more willing to pay'. - Particularly the last, is an argument for that Europeans should pay less than Americans.
Adobe seems to have missed the force of Internet and how customers on both sides of the Atlantic and elsewhere, plan their purchases by searching the Net for bargains. Not the least what items costs in other countries. Adobe practises an unfair price practice that will motivate us Europeans to look at alternatives. It also reminds us that the Adobe CS4 is all too expensive.
Pickett Wilson
02-21-2010, 00:44
Uh, $299 is the upgrade price (what you linked to), not the regular full version price. Your link shows you paying about $320 for the upgrade.
I had a similar discussion with Andrew Rodney when LR2 was released, basically he told me to get lost and go and use somebody else’s product.
Adobe has some old agreement with marketing and distribution etc... and that does effect there pricing but they seem to be doing nothing to normalize there prices globally and actually encourage people to use legal software.
gyuribacsi
02-21-2010, 00:48
@spoks
I´ve just got offered CS4 for the half price by adobe. That means € 450,- (ex VAT) and not € 900,- as regular. Well, I´ll take the advantage. I´m located in Germany
George
Adobe CS4 is regarded as 'very expensive' here in Norway and just 'everybody' are looking for bargains. Most likely, the Adobe PS products, are the most illegally copied software around. An upgrade from CS to CS4 costs NOK 2.350 ex VAT ($ 400). Which means that ordinary consumers must pay NOK 2.938 VAT ($ 500,00) included here in Norway. Thus; the net price ex VAT is important to us. Canon and Nikon - most often, sells their products slightly cheaper in countries with a high VAT, while charging a higher price in USA and tax free havens like Singapore, Hong Kong etc.
Adobe should do the same.
Jamie123
02-21-2010, 01:07
I'm sure CS5 will come out soon and when that happens you'll probably be able to get CS4 for less.
Pickett Wilson
02-21-2010, 01:09
The full version of Adobe's products are expensive. No getting around it. But I have to say having used Photoshop, Illustrator, Pagemaker, now Indesign and Dreamweaver since their beginnings, of all the software I've owned, they have given me the most value for the money. But, I've used them professionally all these years, so it's an equation that makes sense. Like $7,000 cameras, Adobe's products are not for everyone, but everyone wants them.
@spoks
I´ve just got offered CS4 for the half price by adobe. That means € 450,- (ex VAT) and not € 900,- as regular. Well, I´ll take the advantage. I´m located in Germany
George
Where was this? I am going to Kiel next weekend. I know there is a large photo store there.
Jamie123
02-21-2010, 01:31
By the way, do you have anyone in your family that is still in school? I can get Photoshop CS4 Extended as a student edition for €170.-.
Chriscrawfordphoto
02-21-2010, 01:34
The full version of Adobe's products are expensive. No getting around it. But I have to say having used Photoshop, Illustrator, Pagemaker, now Indesign and Dreamweaver since their beginnings, of all the software I've owned, they have given me the most value for the money. But, I've used them professionally all these years, so it's an equation that makes sense. Like $7,000 cameras, Adobe's products are not for everyone, but everyone wants them.
I agree. I use Photoshop, InDesign, and Dreamweaver almost daily and I use Illustrator less often. There's nothing that even comes close to any of them.
The alternatives are non-existent for Illustrator. Adobe bought Macromedia and killed the only good alternative to Illustrator (Freehand).
GoLive was the only real pro web design software to compete with Dreamweaver, and it wasn't as good. It was an Adobe product and they killed it in favor of DW when they bought Macromedia.
QuarkXpress is overpriced and buggy, and the only alternative to Adobe's InDesign, which is the best layout software I've ever used.
Photoshop's alternatives are all badly hobbled by problems that simply make then unusable for professional work. GIMP doesn't support color management or 16 bit layers. PS Elements doesn't have curves or full 16 bit suport. Paint Shop Pro didn't have 16 bit support last time I looked at it and isnt available for Mac.
They can charge what they do because, simply put, they're the only game in town. Still, the whole CS4 suite is cheaper than a good digital SLR. This to me is like people here with thousands of dollars in Leicas and Hasselblads and such who want a $159 scanner for film because they're too tightfisted to buy a good film scanner. The argument that you (Jim) and I are pros who can justify it while the others are amateurs doesn't hold up with amateurs here who have 3 MP bodies and 5 new Leica ASPH lenses. That stuff's expensive and beyond what an amateur needs (and costs more than most pros can afford!), but they have it! LOL
martin s
02-21-2010, 01:35
By the way, do you have anyone in your family that is still in school? I can get Photoshop CS4 Extended as a student edition for €170.-.
How is this any different than pirating the product?
martin
Chriscrawfordphoto
02-21-2010, 01:43
How is this any different than pirating the product?
martin
It is pirating because it violates the user agreement. To buy student editions, the students have to give their name, social security number (in the USA) and address. Adobe can track down the student if they catch someone not a student or former student using it. Its not worth getting your relatives sued.
Jamie123
02-21-2010, 01:45
How is this any different than pirating the product?
martin
I'm not talking about asking your third cousin who's in middle school to buy a version of photoshop for you but I think if it's someone who lives in the same household it's fair game.
Chriscrawfordphoto
02-21-2010, 01:49
I'm not talking about asking your third cousin who's in middle school to buy a version of photoshop for you but I think if it's someone who lives in the same household it's fair game.
No, its not. The agreement they make the student sign in blood when he/she buys it clearly says that it is for the student's use only. I know because I bought Lightroom this way for myself; I am a graduate student. Considering all the documentation and personal info I had to give adobe, plus the blood and semen samples, just to buy this I would not take the risk of being sued and having my life ruined to help a family member. Even if I had a family worth helping.
martin s
02-21-2010, 01:50
I'm not talking about asking your third cousin who's in middle school to buy a version of photoshop for you but I think if it's someone who lives in the same household it's fair game.
It is absolutely not, take a second and think about it. It's intended to be used by a student, which is the reason why the charge you less for it. Living in the same building with a student is not what this offer is about.
martin
Jamie123
02-21-2010, 01:57
It is absolutely not, take a second and think about it. It's intended to be used by a student, which is the reason why the charge you less for it. Living in the same building with a student is not what this offer is about.
martin
I would assume that using the same computer is enough to justify using the same program.
But whatever, maybe it's not. I'm a graduate student myself so I always look at the student prices.
6 months ago, as an Adobe PSE registered user I was offered the full version of CS4 for $299. I jumped on the offer and now am using CS4 exclusively. This was an offer to registered customers though (in the US only? I don't know.) and not the cost of the product off the shelf.
No, its not. The agreement they make the student sign in blood when he/she buys it clearly says that it is for the student's use only. I know because I bought Lightroom this way for myself; I am a graduate student. Considering all the documentation and personal info I had to give adobe, plus the blood and semen samples, just to buy this I would not take the risk of being sued and having my life ruined to help a family member. Even if I had a family worth helping.
Oh, and when my wife was a graduate student I purchased the full Adobe CS1 suite, all the programs, everything, for $150. Chris is right, they asked for lots of info, but it ran for me just as well as it ran for her.
Pickett Wilson
02-21-2010, 02:23
I tend to support companies whose software is closely connected to my livelihood. Which is why I don't complain about Adobe's pricing. I do find some company's insistence that they are losing millions of dollars to software theft a little hard to understand, though. People who steal software are unlikely to have bought it, anyway. So it's not really a loss. It is more an ethical issue (as is using Student priced software when you aren't a student) for those who steal it.
And I can't imagine a photographer who worries about his ownership of copyrights to his photos ever using stolen software.
Having said that, beyond the ethical aspect, it's just stupid to use stolen software commercially or professionally.
Ok if you are furious just buy Photobrush (http://www.mediachance.com/files/photobrush5.exe) it cost 45 USD and does all you may need.
I don't use CS4 (or any CS for that matter) so no worry about CS4 prices.
BTW american companies (or Japanese) finance their operations in Europe with a markup, since this region does not have that much cameras or image software companies (Leica or DxO are the exceptions to my little knowledge, and who's fault is it?!) we end up paying more. The value of the Euro against the dollar does not help either since they look us as rich people since we always paid more (plus 20% VAT).
I can't really get upset about Adobe. If they get away with charging more in Europe, good for them. No one is forcing anyone to buy it. If you need it to make your living, I would think that the cost of Photoshop is small enough to be considered irrelevant.
I can not for the life of me understand why so many amateurs get into their head that they "need" Photoshop, 16bit or not. I guess, after spending cold hard cash on an IPS display, 16bit printer, hardware calibration and a top spec'd computer to run it all - the cost of the software is just too much to bear?
If I am correct the op is not happy due to the fact that it is much more expensive in Europe than in the US..... nothing wrong with that.
And there is no need for the software to be more expensive in Europe.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 05:04
Ok if you are furious just buy Photobrush (http://www.mediachance.com/files/photobrush5.exe) it cost 45 USD and does all you may need.
.
Beware. That link to Photobrush is to an executable file, not a web page.
Jamie123
02-21-2010, 05:07
I can't really get upset about Adobe. If they get away with charging more in Europe, good for them.
Companies can 'get away' with all sorts of stuff but that doesn't mean that one can't be upset about it. Especially when they are selling through the web and there is no apparent reason why they should have to charge Europeans more than US residents.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 05:20
I bought CS4 in a similar offer last year. As a registered PSE user, Adobe emailed me. Whether or not I get $300 worth of better use of PS compared with PSE is debatable. PS is indeed a very capable program. But, it it is also complex with a steep learning curve. That makes me ask how many amateurs are using the program effectively.
The offer is also void in Quebec. I recall similar offers that were also void in Quebec. Many special offers here in the States are not valid in Hawaii and Alaska. I doubt shipping costs are the issue.
My experience living in the UK is about two decades old. But, I did buy a fair amount of U.S. software on the local market. Prices were consistently much higher than in the U.S., typically a straight dollar-to-pounds conversion. Vendors offered all kinds of excuses, even though in many cases the manufacturing facilities were in the UK. (As I recall, music CD wholesalers got in some trouble during that time when they were caught jacking up the prices of their products.)
Re: student use -- If they wanted to, Adobe could capture when every instance of PS is launched. By sifting through that data, they could get a decent idea if a student package is being used on another machine.
Re: pirated software -- I agree with Pickett that it's difficult to build up much angst about chasing down individual pirates who wouldn't have bought the software anyway. Businesses do pirate, though, and that seems a legitimate target.
Pickett Wilson
02-21-2010, 05:51
My only point to the OP was that he provided a link to the upgrade price on the US site and seemed to be referencing the Full price on the page he linked to indicating the NOK price. Comparing apples to oranges.
You have got to be kidding me! People on this forum buy the most expensive cameras and lenses in the world (excluding Hassy's) and your going to complain about a few dollars for a software program. If you do not want to pay the price use something else, there are many available including some supplied from your camera manufacture. Please forgive me for such an outburst, but I live on a fixed income, drool after an M8 or M9 and a few lenses, but realize that unless I hit the lottery it is an impossible dream. I am thankful for my Nikon D3OO and Capture NX.
I tend to support companies whose software is closely connected to my livelihood. Which is why I don't complain about Adobe's pricing. I do find some company's insistence that they are losing millions of dollars to software theft a little hard to understand, though. People who steal software are unlikely to have bought it, anyway. So it's not really a loss. It is more an ethical issue (as is using Student priced software when you aren't a student) for those who steal it.
And I can't imagine a photographer who worries about his ownership of copyrights to his photos ever using stolen software.
Having said that, beyond the ethical aspect, it's just stupid to use stolen software commercially or professionally.
Sure, you have little reason to complain about Adobe pricing. Since you are an American. Adobe's European customers are subsidising American customers! Disregard me comparing the US upgrade price with full version here in Europe. It is still far more expensive to upgrade here in Europe. This, according to Adobe's official explanation; Europeans are better paid (?) and more reliable creditors (!).
I can assure you that not many CEO's (presidents, stockbrokers etc.) here in Europe earn as much as
their American equals.
It is us, the Europeans, that have all the reason to complain about the fact that we are treated differently by Adobe. Because we are more reliable customers!
Scandal!
Pickett Wilson
02-21-2010, 06:44
I believe there are things that are more expensive in the US than in Europe, as well. I guess life isn't always fair. But, you know, what are we going to do?
....and excluding Quebec!
Never mind that Adobe are up-pricing their products here in Europe. After all, we Europeans are soft on Iran (yet another Middle East oil producer with 'weapons of mass destruction'..) and want to pull out of Afganistan. We must be punished for that.
But the quebecans, what have they done wrong....?
I believe there are things that are more expensive in the US than in Europe, as well. I guess life isn't always fair. But, you know, what are we going to do?
From what I read in the news it is a range of European exporters that sell their products in USA to a lower price in USA than in Europe. Leica is one good example! From what I read, Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche have all been selling their products in USA with a huge loss in the last few years or so. - I could go on.
Can you name any major product that is cheaper here in Europe...?
Jamie123
02-21-2010, 06:53
But the quebecans, what have they done wrong....?
They speak french.
They speak french.
.......que....?
Beware. That link to Photobrush is to an executable file, not a web page.
Opps
You right. My bad.
Nevertheless is the Mediachance software company link (http://www.mediachance.com/pbrush/index.html).
Sincere apologies.
Jamie123
02-21-2010, 07:03
But, you know, what are we going to do?
How about complaining?
I hate this "It is how it is, deal with it" attitude. That's exactly why they get away with it. If enough people started to complain that would create bad publicity which may lead them to lower their prices.
Proteus617
02-21-2010, 07:09
Photoshop's alternatives are all badly hobbled by problems that simply make then unusable for professional work. GIMP doesn't support color management or 16 bit layers.
Chris-
The GEGL framework was implemented in Gimp 2.6. Support for color management is improving and 16 bit is on the way.
How about complaining?
I hate this "It is how it is, deal with it" attitude. That's exactly why they get away with it. If enough people started to complain that would create bad publicity which may lead them to lower their prices.
You are absolutely right. Over here there have been several Facebook campaigns complaining about prices of a lot of products.
Jerry Thirsty
02-21-2010, 07:15
Can you name any major product that is cheaper here in Europe...?
While I don't know the exact specifics, I was under the impression that people in the U.S. pay a lot higher price for many pharmaceuticals than in most of Europe.
Jamie123
02-21-2010, 07:19
Most pharmaceuticals.
Maybe in the UK but definitely not here in Switzerland. Ok, ok, we're not in the EU but it's still Europe.
Most pharmaceuticals.
This vary from country to country here in Europe. Like here in Scandinavia. Here it is our governments that negotiate the prices of the most important medicines, on behalf of the population. This is an effective way of reducing prices. But it does not work that way all the time and with all kinds of medicines.
Most pharmaceuticals.
You can buy a pallet of painkillers for a price reduction of 5.000 Euros on a Porsche 911. We pay our health care costs over the tax bill. Most medicines are subsidized, one way or the other, over the tax bill. Then it is difficult to compare what 'the real' price is.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 07:31
It's valid to question extreme differences in software pricing from one country to the next. The shipping costs for the raw material -- data -- are essentially zero. If the CD/DVD is pressed locally, it's difficult to imagine a reason for the differences.
It's worth noting that the $299 Adobe targets only registered Photoshop Elements owners. It's not a Photoshop upgrade offer. And, that Adobe's price for PS in the U.S. is $699, while the price to Norway is, at today's rate, $1094 ex VAT; the Euro price seems to be a bit over $1300 in many locations; the UK price ex VAT is $826 while the price next door in Ireland is $913 ex VAT.
I'd be curious to understand the reasons behind those variations.
The OPs numbers are wrong. Biggest mark-up is 66 percent, see here: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/shanerichmond/5339517/Adobe_CS4_Another_example_of_ripoff_Britain, with an average of around 30%.
Software markup from the US to the outside is typical, and worse to Japan than to Europe. But, speaking from the other side of the fence (I'm not with Adobe ...), support is more expensive.
Why they do it ? Because they can. Don't like it, don't buy it.
Amazed how people are ready to spend multiple thousands of dollars on (partially used) hardware, Leicas, MF cameras, scanners and the like, and do not recognize that software needs to be engineered as well.
Roland.
I think its quite decent of Adobe to provide most of the functionality needed by the great majority of people in the Elements version at a reasonable price. I've been using it for a few years and I am only now starting to see if CS4 might be for me. I do understand that there are situations when elements is not enough, even when not used in a professional context, but then again, there are times when an M9 would be better to have then a P&S camera too... This is not to justify great price differences between the US and EU though.
Also, there are other alternatives as already pointed out. How does the freeware GIMP compare to CS4 and Elements? (I don't know the answer.)
You have got to be kidding me! People on this forum buy the most expensive cameras and lenses in the world (excluding Hassy's) and your going to complain about a few dollars for a software program. If you do not want to pay the price use something else, there are many available including some supplied from your camera manufacture. Please forgive me for such an outburst, but I live on a fixed income, drool after an M8 or M9 and a few lenses, but realize that unless I hit the lottery it is an impossible dream. I am thankful for my Nikon D3OO and Capture NX.
Thank you.
To Spoks: did you even read what Pickett and others have said? Your numbers are wrong anyways, so not only are you a whiner, you're a wrong whiner. I'm sure your precious Facebook groups will change the world.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 07:41
Amazed how people are ready to spend multiple thousands of dollars on (partially used) hardware, Leicas, MF cameras, scanners and the like, and do not recognize that software needs to be engineered as well.
Roland.
True, but once the code is finalized, there is no cost for assembly, testing, shipping, etc. You pull it down from a server and burn DVD's. You can't really compare the costs of distributing and selling software with those of hardware.
As I alluded to earlier, I know that Microsoft products available in the UK when I was there -- the mid-1990's -- were pressed in Ireland, yet sold for almost twice their U.S. price. If you asked the shop about it, they'd say it cost a lot to ship the product from the States.
It's valid to question extreme differences in software pricing from one country to the next. The shipping costs for the raw material -- data -- are essentially zero. If the CD/DVD is pressed locally, it's difficult to imagine a reason for the differences.
It's worth noting that the $299 Adobe targets only registered Photoshop Elements owners. It's not a Photoshop upgrade offer. And, that Adobe's price for PS in the U.S. is $699, while the price to Norway is, at today's rate, $1094 ex VAT; the Euro price seems to be a bit over $1300 in many locations; the UK price ex VAT is $826 while the price next door in Ireland is $913 ex VAT.
I'd be curious to understand the reasons behind those variations.
Thanks for the thorough update.
There is no reason there should be any major unexplainable price differences anymore! (Sure, currency variations happen).
I follow prices of Canon cameras, lenses etc. Canon prices their products at about the same level all over the world. In those few instances I have registered a major difference the prices are rather lower in countries with a high VAT (Europe!). The few instances I check Nikon prices it seems to follow the same patern.
Adobe should do the same: Try to have the same price of their products all over the world. The CS4 should cost the same all over the world! With particularly 'consumer products', directed towards ordinary consumers that are obliged to pay a hefty sales tax (VAT), they should try to keep a lower price in these markets to see to that the VAT itself gets as low as possible.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 07:53
How does the freeware GIMP compare to CS4 and Elements? (I don't know the answer.)
Elements is a very good product at a very good price. It lacks some of the capabilities of full PS, but workarounds are often available on the web and elsewhere.
GIMP is capable, with many, but not all, of the capabilities of PS. The interface seems to annoy many people, especially experienced PS users.
Once you leave behind the world of tweaking photos, however, PS seems to be just about the only game in town for pros.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 07:59
Thanks for the thorough update.
There is no reason there should be any major unexplainable price differences anymore! (Sure, currency variations happen)...Adobe should... Try to have the same price of their products all over the world. The CS4 should cost the same all over the world! With particularly 'consumer products', directed towards ordinary consumers that are obliged to pay a hefty sales tax (VAT), they should try to keep a lower price in these markets to see to that the VAT itself gets as low as possible.
Olsen, I would like to understand the reason behind the price differences, but I'm not ready to assume it's only simple greed. Other potential factors do exist. But, most of the conventional reasons behind high prices for imports, other than currency rates, do seem to not to apply to software.
Olsen, I would like to understand the reason behind the price differences, but I'm not ready to assume it's only simple greed. Other potential factors do exist. But, most of the conventional reasons behind high prices for imports, other than currency rates, do seem to not to apply to software.
When Canon can keep equal prices internationally on their 5D II than Adobe should be in no less possition to do the same. I don't want 'an explanation'. I want lower prices! There is no reason why we should pay 30% more for such a product. Add 25% VAT on the 1,100 $ net price of a CS4 here in Norway and it costs ordinary consumers 1.375 $. I am sure most Americans would think twice about paying that much.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 08:09
Tech support, endless updates, bug fixes, etc, are there. Plus the cost of testing is probably higher.
True, but I question the extent of those differences in English-speaking countries, at least. An upgrade or a bug fix that works in the U.S. and Canada ought to work just fine in the UK, Ireland, Australia, South Africa. Translation does add cost, but is that enough to generate a near-doubling of price in some Euro markets? I believe much of Adobe's serious tech support is sold as separate products.
Amazed how people are ready to spend multiple thousands of dollars on (partially used) hardware, Leicas, MF cameras, scanners and the like, and do not recognize that software needs to be engineered as well.
Roland.
But we do! We understand that a good product like CS4 should cost money. But we are not prepared to pay 33% more than other parts of the world.
True, but I question the extent of those differences in English-speaking countries, at least. An upgrade or a bug fix that works in the U.S. and Canada ought to work just fine in the UK, Ireland, Australia, South Africa. Translation does add cost, but is that enough to generate a near-doubling of price in some Euro markets? I believe much of Adobe's serious tech support is sold as separate products.
We are talking here of 'English' versions of CS4. Translated version are even more expensive. Which means that they are hardly sold here in Norway at all.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 08:18
For many users, and I am beginning to think I might be one of them, who are not doing print work (and thus do not need CMYK) and other PS features, but are just tweaking photos, Elements is actually just fine, as is even iPhoto.
I have used the Gimp on and off for years, but only under Linux. It's not photoshop, but if you combine it with other apps like Graphic Converter, it can be pretty powerful.
My use of PS is limited to photo tweaking. I'm not at all convinced that I do a better job with PS than I did before with PSE. Sure, I an play around with curves and stuff in PS, but I almost invariably go with the "auto" options.
For that matter, the online tools offered by Flickr and Picasa do a surprisingly nice job.
I'm waiting for a product, online or local, that will learn my preferences and habits, and then automatically work through a directory of image files without my intervention. I could review the work and tweak the results, if necessary.
I am not convinced after reading the posts, which followed Spoks', that there is evidence that EU prices are indeed 33% more, at all times (pre VAT). Also it is unclear how Adobe products are distributed in the EU, if in fact other pricing issues are not at work, and prices are not being inflated/supported by other chains of distribution.
Having said the above, and having lived in Spain and Italy and the UK for short periods, prices in Europe never seemed to be very competitive, there seemed to be less cut-throat sales. Remember Adobe cannot set list prices in the US, but must match sales by retailers like Amazon, who may decide to literally sell a product at cost to increase traffic.
I have not lived in Europe for 10 years, are places like Best Buy and Walmart appearing, where goods are sold at tiny markups?
The market place for photo gear is now 'international'.
When the dollar fell 30% th automn of 2008 litterally a busload of Norwegians flew to NY to empty the shelves of B & H. Norwegian national TV even had a news spot on this.
Myself, I go to Singapore regularly. That's where I buy most of my photo gear. When I am in the Cathay Photo store it is 'full' of Europeans shopping to save the VAT they would be obliged to pay back home. If they can get another 30% discount it is 'just marvelous'.
We all travel more than before. Adobe should take this into account.
Al Patterson
02-21-2010, 08:46
True, but once the code is finalized, there is no cost for assembly, testing, shipping, etc. You pull it down from a server and burn DVD's. You can't really compare the costs of distributing and selling software with those of hardware.
As I alluded to earlier, I know that Microsoft products available in the UK when I was there -- the mid-1990's -- were pressed in Ireland, yet sold for almost twice their U.S. price. If you asked the shop about it, they'd say it cost a lot to ship the product from the States.
No cost for testing and shipping? Yeah, I'd hire YOU as my accountant. We'd be in bankruptcy court PDQ...
:bang:
I am not convinced after reading the posts, which followed Spoks', that there is evidence that EU prices are indeed 33% more, at all times (pre VAT). Also it is unclear how Adobe products are distributed in the EU, if in fact other pricing issues are not at work, and prices are not being inflated/supported by other chains of distribution.
Having said the above, and having lived in Spain and Italy and the UK for short periods, prices in Europe never seemed to be very competitive, there seemed to be less cut-throat sales. Remember Adobe cannot set list prices in the US, but must match sales by retailers like Amazon, who may decide to literally sell a product at cost to increase traffic.
I have not lived in Europe for 10 years, are places like Best Buy and Walmart appearing, where goods are sold at tiny markups?
Adobe products are sold all kinds of sources here in Europe. Ranging from cheap sellers (like Giganten) to prominent photo gear shops - to in-line.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 08:53
I am not convinced after reading the posts, which followed Spoks', that there is evidence that EU prices are indeed 33% more, at all times (pre VAT). Also it is unclear how Adobe products are distributed in the EU, if in fact other pricing issues are not at work, and prices are not being inflated/supported by other chains of distribution.
I took the prices I posted off the Adobe site, which lists prices per region and country, and then made the currency conversions using today's rates. I do wonder how many people buy from that site versus a local retailer.
Also, what would happen if a European buyer tried to buy at the U.S. price? Does Adobe check your IP or shipping address and then flip you over to the other price?
Adobe also offer delivery via download, which would seem to eliminate many of the reasons for a price differential.
True, but once the code is finalized, there is no cost for assembly, testing, shipping, etc. You pull it down from a server and burn DVD's. You can't really compare the costs of distributing and selling software with those of hardware.
Manufacturing doesn't really impact the geography-dependent costs.
Support does. And for software, support is expensive. It includes software updates, phone support, remote marketing, etc. My wife had a problem with her Norton license the other day. She literally spent half a day on the phone and on the internet to get it fixed - a technically trivial issue. She spent more time than buying a new Norton copy would have cost.
Average support quality for many services in the US is lousy, compared to Europe, and worse, consumers are used to it. Ever played phone tag with PG&E or AT&T ? That's why support is cheaper here.
I used to work in a tiny Swiss software company. Like our competitors, we did have a 100% markup for Japan, and justifyably so, since we had traveling, local support and marketing overhead. The product was manufactured in Switzerland, and sent via ftp on release.
It's not trivial. We ourselves make the choice where we live. I live about 30 miles away from Adobe. House prices here are probably twice (?) the equivalent house prices in Oslo. Taxes are completely different. And so is health care, unemployment insurance and other benefits. Warrantee laws are different. Why should product prices be the same across all geographies ? Just because the product can be had via an internet connection ?
BTW, Nikon and Canon camera prices are different when you compare grey vs. US market prices. And German cars are more expensive in the US than in Germany, even when built in the US. Also, they are usually configured differently. Etc.
We're talking about Adobe, not AIG.
Roland.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 09:00
No cost for testing and shipping? Yeah, I'd hire YOU as my accountant. We'd be in bankruptcy court PDQ...
i'll grant you local shipping, i.e., from a local pressing shop, but I won't grant international shipping costs unless the finished cellophane-wrapped box is actually shipped internationally. As I said, UK buyers not so long ago were told Microsoft prices were high because they were flown in from the U.S., when, in truth, they were trucked in from Ireland.
And, as I mentioned above, Adobe offers download as a delivery option. Meaning, no shipping costs at all.
As for testing, do we know for a fact that PS is subject to a different testing regime for the European market? Is there a reason why my American copy of PS would develop problems if I moved to Europe?
Do we know exactly how different is the product sold in Europe?
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 09:20
Manufacturing doesn't really impact the geography-dependent costs.
Support does. And for software, support is expensive. It includes software updates, phone support, remote marketing, etc. My wife had a problem with her Norton license the other day. She literally spent half a day on the phone and on the internet to get it fixed - a technically trivial issue. She spent more time than buying a new Norton copy would have cost.
Average support quality for many services in the US is lousy, compared to Europe, and worse, consumers are used to it. Ever played phone tag with PG&E or AT&T ? That's why support is cheaper here.
I used to work in a tiny Swiss software company. Like our competitors, we did have a 100% markup for Japan, and justifyably so, since we had traveling, local support and marketing overhead. The product was manufactured in Switzerland, and sent via ftp on release.
It's not trivial. We ourselves make the choice where we live. I live about 30 miles away from Adobe. House prices here are probably twice (?) the equivalent house prices in Oslo. Taxes are completely different. And so is health care, unemployment insurance and other benefits. Warrantee laws are different. Why should product prices be the same across all geographies ? Just because the product can be had via an internet connection ?
BTW, Nikon and Canon camera prices are different when you compare grey vs. US market prices. And German cars are more expensive in the US than in Germany, even when built in the US. Also, they are usually configured differently. Etc.
We're talking about Adobe, not AIG.
Roland.
Agree, those are all legitimate reasons for price differences. Certainly better than just asserting "because we can".
And, as any American who even occasionally visits Europe knows, it's a more expensive place to live. Or, at least, shop. The different levels of support provided by tax dollars makes direct comparisons tricky.
These things work both ways, too. I have a fair number of books purchased in the UK that were also published in the U.S. The U.S. version, after the currency conversion, is usually considerably less expensive.
Used camera equipment also seems to be noticeably more expensive from the online venues of European businesses like Leicashop.
Customer support certainly sucks in the U.S., pretty much across the board. People read canned answers from a canned script. Unless I buy a package, Adobe support seems to be limited. I once posted a question on their site and got a response back a month later. Nothing, however, can compare to the agony of customer service at my local cable outfit.
[quote=wgerrard;1265791As I said, UK buyers not so long ago were told Microsoft prices were high because they were flown in from the U.S., when, in truth, they were trucked in from Ireland.[/quote]
Maybe the cost of losing all those trucks in the Irish Sea.
Download difference is most likely the cost difference in support and tariffs. If a product is 'made' in the US isn't it still imported by a country to be downloaded. Import tariffs would apply and be different for EU and non EU countries.
Steve
NickTrop
02-21-2010, 09:35
French wine costs more to buy in the US than it does in France... The outrage!
gnarayan
02-21-2010, 09:56
I am sure most Americans would think twice about paying that much.
Which is probably why they don't.
Price is what the market will pay and if the European market is willing to pay more than the American one, then you can't really blame Adobe for taking advantage of it. Any more than you can blame Leica for instance for charging what they do for an M.
Convince all of Europe not to buy at this price and then you might get change. Or contribute to making GIMP better.
martin s
02-21-2010, 09:56
French wine costs more to buy in the US than it does in France... The outrage!
A few weird comparisons going on here, but this one takes the cake. You don't see the difference between wine and software?
martin
Which is probably why they don't.
Price is what the market will pay and if the European market is willing to pay more than the American one, then you can't really blame Adobe for taking advantage of it. Any more than you can blame Leica for instance for charging what they do for an M.
Convince all of Europe not to buy at this price and then you might get change. Or contribute to making GIMP better.
This is indeed the point we are trying to make; there is no consumer market for a CS4 at $ 1,375. I am sure there is no market for the CS4 at this price level in the US either.
gnarayan
02-21-2010, 10:33
This is indeed the point we are trying to make; there is no consumer market for a CS4 at $ 1,375. I am sure there is no market for the CS4 at this price level in the US either.
I got your point.
Mine was that you might have better luck writing to their customer service department or retailers that carry their product and actually trying to organize something useful.
What did you think you were going to achieve ranting on RFF.
For what its worth, I use the GIMP and RawTherapee. Avoid piracy, complaints about the price and does what I need.
NickTrop
02-21-2010, 10:34
A few weird comparisons going on here, but this one takes the cake. You don't see the difference between wine and software? martin
Not from a product mark-up standpoint. If I want something and it's only made in X country, and that's the only game in town, a variable portion of my mark up will go to "economic rent".... Pricing is about "what the market will bear"... if "what the market will bear" is greater in the European market than it is in the US market... that's the price.
Perhaps a better example are DVDs and the whole "region" thing. DVDs cost pennies to produce, the US consumer pays $20-ish per title for major releases domestically. China is a huge market but they ain't spending a week's worth of wages in their economy on a DVD, so in their region the same exact DVD I paid $20 US for cost the Chinese $1.50, or whatever.
The intitial post suggests Adobe is treating the Europeans unfairly or is discriminating. Far be it from me to defend any SW giant, but in this case it's just not true. This kind of thing goes on all the time, pricing discrepencies - some rather significant, always exist between domestic product and import items for a variety of reasons, some political. You pay more for US software, we pay more for your _____ product. It's about what price a market will bare, business is business... If Adobe would increase revenue by lowering price in Europe, -snap- they'd do it in a heartbeat. Wanna lower Adobe's price? Quit buying their software. Watch the price sink like a rock.
Jamie123
02-21-2010, 11:38
You pay more for US software, we pay more for your _____ product. It's about what price a market will bear, business is business... If Adobe would increase revenue by lowering price in Europe, -snap- they'd do it in a heartbeat. Wanna lower Adobe's price? Quit buying their software. Watch the price sink like a rock.
It's not that simple. Adobe is the leader by a long run in its market segment. It is THE standard for imaging software in the creative field and as such it has a quasi monopoly. For most people working in this field not using Adobe products simply isn't an option as there's no real competition around. I'd venture to say that the could even double the price tomorrow and a lot of people would still buy it because they have to.
This pseudo free market argument "it's about what the market will bare" is way too simplistic. This only works when there is real competition. That's why we (at least in my country) have government agencies whose job it is to prevent the formation of cartels that artificially keep the prices high just because the market will pay anything they ask.
Now I'm in no way suggesting that this is the case with Adobe or that the government should intervene in their price policy but I'm saying that such a simplistic view of "the market" as is often presented by many politicians just doesn't cut it. The market's more complex than that.
What should one do about Adobe's high price discrepancies? Just not buy their products and shut up? I say no. I say make some noise, rant all you want, tell your friends about it. If enough people do it it may reach the point where they have to spend more on marketing to counteract the bad press than what they're making by keeping the prices high.
tom.w.bn
02-21-2010, 11:43
The Adobe online store for Europe is ridiculous. You have two options. Download or getting the software package via mail. If I download the software I pay 21% VAT because the download server is located in Ireland, even if VAT in Germany is 19%. If I choose the mail option I pay 10 or 20 EUR shipping cost. So there is no way to get the price I would pay in a store.
But tell me the alternatives? If you need all this highend stuff, there is none. In the middle segment where PSE plays, there are a lot of alternatives but I still like PSE best.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 11:59
It's not that simple. Adobe is the leader by a long run in its market segment. It is THE standard for imaging software in the creative field and as such it has a quasi monopoly. For most people working in this field not using Adobe products simply isn't an option as there's no real competition around. I'd venture to say that the could even double the price tomorrow and a lot of people would still buy it because they have to.
I think that's probably the case, within reason, for legitimate professionals, i.e., someone whose income is dependent on using Photoshop and who can write off a higher price and/or pass it along to customers.
The full version of Photoshop is not an amateur product, even if they gave it away. It makes too many assumptions about the experience and knowledge of the user. A package intended for amateur photo tweakers would include "click here to make the colors better"-style capability, which is exactly what PSE offers.
This pseudo free market argument "it's about what the market will bare" is way too simplistic. This only works when there is real competition. That's why we (at least in my country) have government agencies whose job it is to prevent the formation of cartels that artificially keep the prices high just because the market will pay anything they ask.
I agree with that. When one or a small number of companies dominate a market, they become resistant to pressure to lower prices, and can obviously collude to keep prices high.
What should one do about Adobe's high price discrepancies? Just not buy their products and shut up? I say no. I say make some noise, rant all you want, tell your friends about it. If enough people do it it may reach the point where they have to spend more on marketing to counteract the bad press than what they're making by keeping the prices high.
Well, I don't think complaining about Adobe's prices is going to lower their prices. If they spend more on marketing to counter the complaints, that just increases their costs, which they will likely pass along to customers. Not buying their products might have an impact, if their sales in an individual country are enough to merit their concern.
My conclusion is that while the camera producers have been very fast at adjusting to the new reality of consumers 'buying where it is cheaper', Adobe still lives in a world where they think they can charge 30% more for the same product depending on 'what country'. They will, I am sure, prosper from changing their price policy to the same as that of Canon and Nikon. That simple.
Not from a product mark-up standpoint. If I want something and it's only made in X country, and that's the only game in town, a variable portion of my mark up will go to "economic rent".... Pricing is about "what the market will bear"... if "what the market will bear" is greater in the European market than it is in the US market... that's the price.
Perhaps a better example are DVDs and the whole "region" thing. DVDs cost pennies to produce, the US consumer pays $20-ish per title for major releases domestically. China is a huge market but they ain't spending a week's worth of wages in their economy on a DVD, so in their region the same exact DVD I paid $20 US for cost the Chinese $1.50, or whatever.
The intitial post suggests Adobe is treating the Europeans unfairly or is discriminating. Far be it from me to defend any SW giant, but in this case it's just not true. This kind of thing goes on all the time, pricing discrepencies - some rather significant, always exist between domestic product and import items for a variety of reasons, some political. You pay more for US software, we pay more for your _____ product. It's about what price a market will bear, business is business... If Adobe would increase revenue by lowering price in Europe, -snap- they'd do it in a heartbeat. Wanna lower Adobe's price? Quit buying their software. Watch the price sink like a rock.
It is not true what you are claiming. Look up the prices of Canon 5D II or Nikon D70 around the world. Any difference can be explained by taxation or currency fluctuations. A Canon 5D II cost practically the same all over the world, tax free. If any large difference appear, like under the big dollar crash of 2008, customers will soon find that out and pick up the advantage. Like what many European photo gear customers did back in late 2008. They picked up a ticket to New York, they still go for about $ 1,000, and bought enough photo gear to save more than $ 2,000.
This is what is happening with Adobe CS4 too. Companies and professional users might still buy CS4 at $ 1,100 tax free here in Norway. But advanced amateurs buy them overseas (NY, Abu Dabi, Canary Islands, Hong Kong etc.) for $ 600 tax free. Their alternative is buying them in Norway - included VAT, for $ 1,375. I am sure, quite a few professionals, like lone professional photographers, do also buy them overseas for $ 600.
Al Patterson
02-21-2010, 12:53
i'll grant you local shipping, i.e., from a local pressing shop, but I won't grant international shipping costs unless the finished cellophane-wrapped box is actually shipped internationally. As I said, UK buyers not so long ago were told Microsoft prices were high because they were flown in from the U.S., when, in truth, they were trucked in from Ireland.
And, as I mentioned above, Adobe offers download as a delivery option. Meaning, no shipping costs at all.
As for testing, do we know for a fact that PS is subject to a different testing regime for the European market? Is there a reason why my American copy of PS would develop problems if I moved to Europe?
Do we know exactly how different is the product sold in Europe?
Even with download, one has to consider the cost of the server farm where the files come from. There is cost of the hardware, the OS license on the servers, rent or mortgage on the building, not to mention employee costs.
True, a software based distribution system will lead to cheaper product than mailing boxes around. I'm betting iTunes makes more per song at 99 cents than when I bought a vinyl 45RPM record back in the day for $1.29 or whatever, but I thought your assumption in the message I replied ignored many of the expenses incurred by Adobe. I'd like to look at their financials, but I'm too lazy to do so. The idea that testing costs ends when CS4 is released for example, would assume that these resources aren't maybe starting work on CS5 or Elements9, or whatever the next product in the pipeline may be.
I do agree with the OP that I'd be offended if I paid more for any product than cost of product elsewhere plus applicable taxes.
As for your testing and version questions, they are good ones, but I have no idea how to answer them, except that I'm sure a US version run on a computer in France will work just fine.
I would not hold my breath on that. The US is a friendly market for Adobe.
It should not suprise me that is how they are thinking. If so, it is not very professional, - compared to how Canon and Nikon are doing business.
But it really is no problem. We wont buy a CS4 for $ 1,100/1,375 when we can buy them for $ 600 elsewhere. If Adobe are looking for stupid farmers they should look elsewhere. Ha, ha!
That is a lot of gear! To save $2000 you would have to buy $6000 in gear, and then subtract the $1000 to arrive at a savings of $1000.
How do you get the equipment in, since "If you import goods into Norway valued at more than 200 kroner, you [may] need to pay 25 % VAT and customs and excise duty."
Is this a "throw the boxes away" sort of adventure?
Sure! But that is still what they did! I know of more than 10 guys (they were more than 30 altogether) that went to New York back then. Only from Oslo! They were even fighting among themselves about who should have B & H last 300 mm 2,8.
Norwegians travel a lot. As tourists, on business or as students. Not the least to USA. So do most Europeans. Adobe seems to know little about how Europeans live and how our tax system motivates us to buy things tax free.
That is a lot of gear! To save $2000 you would have to buy $6000 in gear, and then subtract the $1000 to arrive at a savings of $1000.
How do you get the equipment in, since "If you import goods into Norway valued at more than 200 kroner, you [may] need to pay 25 % VAT and customs and excise duty."
Is this a "throw the boxes away" sort of adventure?
I have bought practically all my gear in Singapore. From ny 1Ds/1Ds II/1DsIII plus a heep of lenses - not the mention the M8 - and so on. I guess I have saved more than 6,000 $ in VAT only. I simply put it in my bag. Boxes included. The tax free purchasing limit is far higher than 200 NOK. It is more like 10.000 per person. More of an issue is the weight restrictions and cost of overweight on the flight home. (One of the guys going to NY from Oslo in 2008 had to pay a hefty overweight fee. Still it was good business!)
I have a old Adobe CS version on an old PC with Windows NT. We now have a new and better PC with Vista and yet another planned with Windows 7 in my household. I could very much like to have a CS4 combined with the latest Lightroom for the new Windows 7 system. I checked around at Cathay Photo, Singapore about prices when I was there last time. I could not make sense of the price I got (that I understand now!), and thought that it can't include all what is offered here in Norway. I'll will buy my CS4 in Singapore. That's for sure.
The prices of many software products are different all over the world but so are things like import and distribution taxes for doing business in any given country. Adobe no doubt employs people somewhere in Europe and that costs them a certain amount of money, probably more than what it does per person in the USA. There's many issues at work that determine the final price you purchase something at, it's not all Adobe being predatory and thinking they can swing one over on the Euros. But I'd take it to them and ask directly "why?" if you're a potential customer, they owe this much to you to explain it, and if it sounds like a fabrication then it probably is... move on and support someone else.
Having made my living with adobe products for some time I'll fully admit to having used pirated software of theirs for years. I was a student putting myself through school and I simply couldn't afford it even at the educational discounts... that being said I now own pretty much all of their products, with multiple user licenses and think their software is well worth the money. Once I started charging people for my output I figured it fair to pay them for theirs.
Apparently this is Adobe's position.
I know, if you buy the Engish version it should be cheaper... and who knows if this policy will last. But Adobe's main customer base in Europe continues to be professional. And they have to have one price per country.
Bottom line re Norway, you don't buy very much. Trips to B&H aside.
We can drop the special language part. It is not relevant since we are talking of 'English version' only. A 'Norwegian' CS4 is so expensive that it is only relevant for Hasselblad users. We can drop the tax part. Which leaves us with 'nothing' substantial as arguments as to why a CS4 should cost $ 500 more in Norway than in USA.
No. We are not buying that many CS4s. Particularly not here in Norway. That could change if Adobe applied a price policy more adjusted to the international realities. - Like what Canon and Nikon have done. Adobe has a range of excellent products. Give us an oportunity to not feel like the stupid farmers we most likely are - and we just might buy the stuff.
clachnacuddin
02-21-2010, 13:54
A few weird comparisons going on here, but this one takes the cake. You don't see the difference between wine and software?
martin
I think the comparison goes together quite well...I know the work I do on Photoshop improves greatly after a few glasses of wine!
I just posted what the Norwegian government says it is, and now realize I cannot find the page I translated. They were very specific that food was allowed but clothes not. I could not find a specific reference to cameras. I do personally know people who have be snagged in the Netherlands and had to leave equipment at customs, and pick it up on the way out. I wonder what the actual rule in Norway is?
Here in New York we are supposed to pay sales tax on goods bought in New Jersey, and there were times when the state tried scaring people by taking down license numbers at malls in NJ, but they now go directly for the companies.
Found it: it is about $1000 USD
Free import:
1. residents of Norway who have been abroad for less than 24 hours: goods representing a total value of NOK 3,000.-. This does not include alcohol or tobacco products, unless it can be proven that they have been purchased with a price including tax (not duty free) in an E.E.A. country;
2. residents of Norway who have been abroad for 24 hours or more and visitors to Norway: goods representing a total value of NOK 6,000.-. Articles included in this limit (not for passengers under 18 years) are:
a. 200 cigarettes or 250 grammes of other tobacco products and 200 leaves of cigarette paper; and
b. alcoholic beverages:
- 1 litre of spirits of 22% vol. or higher to a max. of 60% vol. and 1.5 litres of alcohol of 2.5% up to and incl. 22% vol.; or
- 3 litres of alcohol of up to and incl. 22% vol.; and
- 2 litres of beer with more than 2.5% up to/incl. 4.7 vol.
This means a max. of 5 litres of beer if no other alcoholic beverages are imported.
http://www.iatatravelcentre.com/NO-Norway-customs-currency-airport-tax-regulations-details.htm
Olsen -- others please correct this if incorrect, I am not taking sides just reporting what Adobe, and what seems to be the Norwegian rules on import. I have never entered Norway, so could not begin to know about enforcement. I know it is very sporadic in the US, but my girlfriend keeps losing British food.
Which makes me a smuggler. I am crying all the way to the bank....
The VAT, but also the event of internet, has changed the photo business drastically. But also the jewels, expensive watches - anything compact & expensive that can be transported easily. These products you don't buy back home here in Europe anymore. A hefty VAT is common in most European countries. In Germany 19% of the sales price is VAT. 21% in Ireland, 20% in Norway, Sweden and Finland - and so on. Most likely, USA will have to introduce some kind of VAT in the future. I see this is being discussed on Bloomberg TV and so on. Then you will see the advantages of going to tax free havens.
We can drop the special language part. It is not relevant since we are talking of 'English version' only. A 'Norwegian' CS4 is so expensive that it is only relevant for Hasselblad users. We can drop the tax part. Which leaves us with 'nothing' substantial as arguments as to why a CS4 should cost $ 500 more in Norway than in USA.
No. We are not buying that many CS4s. Particularly not here in Norway. That could change if Adobe applied a price policy more adjusted to the international realities. - Like what Canon and Nikon have done. Adobe has a range of excellent products. Give us an oportunity to not feel like the stupid farmers we most likely are - and we just might buy the stuff.
I agree.
It is in countries like the Scandinavian countries, Ireland, Germany, Italy etc - with consumers with a high purchasing power and a relatively large community of semi pro/advanced amateurs that well could fall for a time limited campaign with favourable prices of CS4. Pro users, many of whom are willing to pay the $ 1,100 regardless, will not hop on such campaign offers. This because purchases are tied to budgets and investment decisions, an so on. While an amateur/semi pro on a consumer-like budget would certainly take the advantage of a favourable offer.
There is a strong Norwegian graphic design industry, and they probably what the support, and do not care about cost. Also companies cannot run pirated software, they must have licenses, since they run the risk a disgruntled employee will "drop a dime" on them.
I understand your points of course, but Adobe still considers themselves a professional supplier, and they must cater to the companies and schools who buy many copies and want the software in their native tongue.
But if you are going to run pirate, why pay for the software at all?
I am absolutely sure that the total of Norway's graphical industry are using Adobe software already and that they all have paid their $ 1,100 for their CS4s. But that industry is now in decline. The demand for licences is falling. If Adobe wants to sell more in Norway, they come to a tight market. They also come to a market which is changing. Where companies are breaking up in smaller independent units where individuals are independant companies. Adobe should not expect these to act the same way as the larger companies did. The individual 'consultant' just might jump on the possibility to buy his CS4 licence for $ 600 somewhere. If Adobe wants to sell more licences then they should direct campaigns towards this segment as well as the semi pro/advanced amateur. No to say students.
Personally, I will not go for any pirate solution. But I am not interested in paying more than the lowest international price + Norwegian VAT. Left with no other option, I will buy my CS4/Lightroom combo where it is cheaper. That's called arbitrage. A term the market orientated Adobe people will understand, I am sure.
I understand your points of course, but Adobe still considers themselves a professional supplier, and they must cater to the companies and schools who buy many copies and want the software in their native tongue.
About eight or ten years ago, when they had nationalized distributions (maybe while they hit the space limit on distribution CDs), the English versions were always about 10% more expensive than the German one hereabouts - and all companies I worked for purchased English versions (for the sake of their international staff and to have the best possible compatibility with add-ons and plug-ins, which sometimes did not work or were unsupported on nationalized versions). Right now, they ship at least bilingual.
Sevo
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 14:43
Now there are a large number of users (encouraged by Adobe, and pirated software before their current clamp-down) who simply want to own a professional application for home use, and price is important.
I have a twenty-something nephew. As far as I know, he doesn't own a camera, but he has a pirated copy of PS on his laptop. Go figure.
The characterization of PS as a professional tool is important. Amateurs and professionals have different needs. They also have different skills and knowledge levels. If an amateur just wants to resize his images, make them look better and palatable for web posting, then PS is a whole lot of unnecessary hassle. Adobe recognized the difference between the amateur and the pro markets when they launched PSE. That's something they would not have done if "amateur" PSE posed any threat to "pro" PS.
Taxes are tricky, here in NYC we pay a modest 8.25 sales tax, which supports all sorts of city expenditures. But no one wants to pay sales tax, so "we" drive to New Jersey or buy on the internet. But then the money has to come from somewhere... and when the Subway for instance has a severe shortfall we all cry the blues.
I have no answer, just that the money for "free" this and that, has to come from somewhere. :cool:
Ha, ha! Indeed, you are right. We had an excellent social democrat prime minister, Gro Harlem Bruntland (this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro_Harlem_Brundtland ) who said: 'everybody wants to buy a new car, but nowbody wants to pay for the road'. I am in a little special situation. I live both in Singapore and Norway and pay taxes to both places. But I do take the advantage of buying stuff where it is the cheapest.
JPSuisse
02-21-2010, 14:46
One poster asked why somebody who buys expensive cameras won't pay for software... Actually there are good reasons:
1.) A good film camera does not require me to purchase an update every 3 years when I change operating systems! I bought CS and shortly upgraded to Tiger 10.4. Acrobat never did work properly again.... Now, who's ripping whom off here!?
2.) My film camera does not collect information about me and require data to be sent to the manufacturer to "reactivate" what I purchased. Why should I pay for an invasion of privacy?
3.) I'm using a Lightroom 2 now, but since Adobe won't support PPC processors anymore, I'm changing to Bibble 5 now that it supports the M8. Here, software companies are working together to force this continual cycle of upgrades down my throat! Alas, the Captialist business model at it's best.
Actually, in my view, software is much less valuable than hardware from a customer point of view, because REAL hardware should last without having to pay for updates...
Grrr.
JP
NickTrop
02-21-2010, 14:53
It's not that simple. Adobe is the leader by a long run in its market segment. It is THE standard for imaging software in the creative field and as such it has a quasi monopoly. For most people working in this field not using Adobe products simply isn't an option as there's no real competition around. I'd venture to say that the could even double the price tomorrow and a lot of people would still buy it because they have to.
Disagree on two points. It is what the market will bare. In fact, you have it backwards. The more competition exists, the less it's about "what the market will bare" and the more it's about price equilibrium. For example, commodity items - wheat for instance. The market may "bare" twice or three times the cost per bushel. However, because it's a commodity item with lots of farmers producing wheat, supply drives every person to the same price per bushel - the farmer has "zero" influence on the price of his produce - even if the market will "bare" a higher prince.
In a monopoly - and I disagree completely that Adobe has a "monopoly" on image editing SW at all but I'll play along, they could charge $100,000 per license but they would find themselves soon out of business. What price do they charge? The highest price the market will bare.
Al Patterson
02-21-2010, 14:53
One poster asked why somebody who buys expensive cameras won't pay for software... Actually there are good reasons:
1.) A good film camera does not require me to purchase an update every 3 years when I change operating systems! I bought CS and shortly upgraded to Tiger 10.4. Acrobat never did work properly again.... Now, who's ripping whom off here!?
2.) My film camera does not collect information about me and require data to be sent to the manufacturer to "reactivate" what I purchased. Why should I pay for an invasion of privacy?
3.) I'm using a Lightroom 2 now, but since Adobe won't support PPC processors anymore, I'm changing to Bibble 5 now that it supports the M8. Here, software companies are working together to force this continual cycle of upgrades down my throat! Alas, the Captialist business model at it's best.
Actually, in my view, software is much less valuable than hardware from a customer point of view, because REAL hardware should last without having to pay for updates...
Grrr.
JP
You do know that the only reason you need to upgrade the hardware is that software designers will eventually write some bloated code that will require you to upgrade, after it sucks up every CPU cycle you have and then some, right?
Yes, I'm sort of kiddng, but my older desktop, which ran fine when I bought it, now has trouble keeping up when both McAfee and MicroSoft go on the web to get their updates at the same time. I blame Bill Gates...
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 14:57
Apparently this is Adobe's position...
...
I'm glad you posted that. It clarifies matters. I'm especially intrigued by this:
We maintain 2.5 times as many field marketing employees in Europe as in North America to support our creative business at a certain level of quality across local markets. However, the revenue per employee is smaller, so the overall costs per unit of revenue is 4:1 in Europe compared to North America.
I have a twenty-something nephew. As far as I know, he doesn't own a camera, but he has a pirated copy of PS on his laptop. Go figure.
The characterization of PS as a professional tool is important. Amateurs and professionals have different needs. They also have different skills and knowledge levels. If an amateur just wants to resize his images, make them look better and palatable for web posting, then PS is a whole lot of unnecessary hassle. Adobe recognized the difference between the amateur and the pro markets when they launched PSE. That's something they would not have done if "amateur" PSE posed any threat to "pro" PS.
Sure, if we try to define "what is really necessary" in our little semi pro/advanced amateur photo world we end up with a pin hole camera and Wall Mart processing. The software part of photography is just as important as the camera itself today.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 15:06
Taxes are tricky, here in NYC we pay a modest 8.25 sales tax, which supports all sorts of city expenditures. But no one wants to pay sales tax, so "we" drive to New Jersey or buy on the internet. But then the money has to come from somewhere... and when the Subway for instance has a severe shortfall we all cry the blues.
I have no answer, just that the money for "free" this and that, has to come from somewhere. :cool:
The sales tax where I am is something like 7.5 percent. The legislature sometimes levies "temporary" increases of a fraction or so, and everyone whines and bitches. Yet, ask someone if they'd be willing to cut anything that actually impacted their lives and the answer is "no". They are quite happy to advocate cutting spending on services that benefit someone else.
I'm glad you posted that. It clarifies matters. I'm especially intrigued by this:
We maintain 2.5 times as many field marketing employees in Europe as in North America to support our creative business at a certain level of quality across local markets. However, the revenue per employee is smaller, so the overall costs per unit of revenue is 4:1 in Europe compared to North America.
Sorry, but no, I don't believe that is true. As Olsen said: We can drop the language part; we talk of English versions only, we can drop the tax part [we talk of tax free prices]. Which leaves us with 'nothing' substantial as arguments to why a CS4 should cost 30% [actually 83% - $ 500] more than in USA. We Norwegian amateurs have to direct our technical questions, in English, to USA. So, what European field support...?
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 15:09
Sure, if we try to define "what is really necessary" in our little semi pro/advanced amateur photo world we end up with a pin hole camera and Wall Mart processing. The software part of photography is just as important as the camera itself today.
I qualified my statement about what amateurs need. And the usefulness of pirating PS when you don't use a camera escapes me.
Reality I am just the bearer of bad news. Olsen as an international smuggler, now that is funny. :D
Ha, ha! Olsen could well make a living off smuggling CS4s from Singapore to Oslo. For service call 800 --- Ha ha!
Al Patterson
02-21-2010, 15:15
The sales tax where I am is something like 7.5 percent. The legislature sometimes levies "temporary" increases of a fraction or so, and everyone whines and bitches. Yet, ask someone if they'd be willing to cut anything that actually impacted their lives and the answer is "no". They are quite happy to advocate cutting spending on services that benefit someone else.
No sales taxes where I live,, but they do take more in income taxes than the three surrounding states...
Many people seem to like the "free" government goodies paid for by others.
And I'm with those who say that one should use open software rather than pirate commercial products.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 15:19
One poster asked why somebody who buys expensive cameras won't pay for software... Actually there are good reasons:
1.) A good film camera does not require me to purchase an update every 3 years when I change operating systems! I bought CS and shortly upgraded to Tiger 10.4. Acrobat never did work properly again.... Now, who's ripping whom off here!?
3.) I'm using a Lightroom 2 now, but since Adobe won't support PPC processors anymore, I'm changing to Bibble 5 now that it supports the M8. Here, software companies are working together to force this continual cycle of upgrades down my throat! Alas, the Captialist business model at it's best.
JP
Apple and Adobe did not force you to upgrade. That was your choice. Buying a software upgrade is directly analogous to buying an upgraded or new model of a piece of hardware. Buying an M9 doesn't render an M8 inoperable.
It's pretty difficult these days to find parts and mechanics for a Model T Ford.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 15:24
Sorry, but no, I don't believe that is true. As Olsen said: We can drop the language part; we talk of English versions only, we can drop the tax part [we talk of tax free prices]. Which leaves us with 'nothing' substantial as arguments to why a CS4 should cost 30% [actually 83% - $ 500] more than in USA. We Norwegian amateurs have to direct our technical questions, in English, to USA. So, what European field support...?
The Adobe statement does not mention taxes, and mentions languages only in relation to increased costs. The European field personnel it mentions are marketing, not support, staff.
Fundamentally, if you are arguing that Adobe products should cost no more in Europe that in America, you need to explain why other American products also cost more in Europe. Or, for that matter, why I can buy a book from Amazon in the U.S. for $20 while Amazon.UK will sell it to me for $30.
No sales taxes where I live,, but they do take more in income taxes than the three surrounding states...
Many people seem to like the "free" government goodies paid for by others.
And I'm with those who say that one should use open software rather than pirate commercial products.
Hi Al,
While Spoks and nikonhswebmaster tries to make a laughing stock of me as an international smuggler, I will simply point out to you that paying $ 1,375 is simply too much for a CS4. If we could be offered the going tax free price of $ 600 - as in USA, we would 'only' have to pay $ 750 taxes included here in Norway, - we would find this to be a fair deal. I hope you'll understand. Adobe is trying to make their own sort of 'prohibition' here. Oportunity makes crooks. I am sure you agree. :D
Regards Scarface, the Smuggler.
fotofanatic
02-21-2010, 15:28
Good products but they suck on customer service and keeping verions current.
It's a no-win situation for Adobe. They charge a lot because they have to protect themselves from losing money to pirated software, however, if they made it cheaper, maybe more people would feel less a need to get a pirated version.
Personally, I do think their prices are a little outrageous... even more-so if they are charging double abroad. However, I pay for it because I need it for my job (Art Director) and it's the "industry standard". Personally, if Corel can make a whole suite of software for a fraction of the price and still survive I believe Adobe can to... they just choose not to.
As for alternative, there ARE some decent ones for the person who doesn't want to spend a fortune. I've heard Pixelmator is very good. iPhoto will do quite a bit for the person that just wants the basics. Gimp provides more control and is free. Have a friend who swears by PaintShop Pro. I hear the latest version of Aperture is fabulous. I've used the Corel stuff (for my job) and find it fairly powerful and similar to Photoshop and Illustrator/InDesign. Are they all as good as photoshop? Depends on what you need to do. I'd say for a lot of people they are, depending on your skill-set and needs. Some are even a lot more user friendly.
wgerrard
02-21-2010, 15:31
Many people seem to like the "free" government goodies paid for by others.
If you pay taxes, those "goodies" are not entirely "paid for by others. Few of us would want to live in a society to which government provided no services.
And I'm with those who say that one should use open software rather than pirate commercial products.
So am I. I don't pirate, and I really wish open software paid as much attention to interface and usability as to software freedom. Software freedom is of no use to me if the software is hard to use and ugly. Or, not even available. I planned to run Ubuntu Linux on my PPC iMac when Apple upgraded its OS, but the Ubuntu developers abandoned iMac development. So, now I'm using an Intel iMac.
The Adobe statement does not mention taxes, and mentions languages only in relation to increased costs. The European field personnel it mentions are marketing, not support, staff.
Fundamentally, if you are arguing that Adobe products should cost no more in Europe that in America, you need to explain why other American products also cost more in Europe. Or, for that matter, why I can buy a book from Amazon in the U.S. for $20 while Amazon.UK will sell it to me for $30.
Then you must explain to me how Canon and Nikon can sell their cameras to the same price (tax free) in Oslo as in Tokio (or Abu Dabi, New York etc etc.). Surely, read closely, taxes are mentioned. Adobe has been caught in the act! Now we will see what they will do.
It's a no-win situation for Adobe.
Personally, I do think their prices are a little outrageous...
How would you react if the Adobe product you were depenant on cost $ 1,100 in USA, but only $ 600 in - say, Norway...?
Al Patterson
02-21-2010, 16:24
How would you react if the Adobe product you were depenant on cost $ 1,100 in USA, but only $ 600 in - say, Norway...?
Now, were I able to depreciate or expense the purchase as a business expense on my taxes, I wouldn't care.
However, as a consumer who couldn't sink the expense in my business?
I'd buy Elements or get some freeware...
Al Patterson
02-21-2010, 16:27
Hi Al,
While Spoks and nikonhswebmaster tries to make a laughing stock of me as an international smuggler, I will simply point out to you that paying $ 1,375 is simply too much for a CS4. If we could be offered the going tax free price of $ 600 - as in USA, we would 'only' have to pay $ 750 taxes included here in Norway, - we would find this to be a fair deal. I hope you'll understand. Adobe is trying to make their own sort of 'prohibition' here. Oportunity makes crooks. I am sure you agree. :D
Regards Scarface, the Smuggler.
Olsen my friend, it is all in good fun, usually. I do agree with you that the price disparity between the EU and the USA seems wrong. Nobody should have to pay more than the price of an item, plus local taxes. If the taxes double the price of the item, then hey, that's the breaks.
Clearly, there are other issue here.
Al Patterson
02-21-2010, 16:32
If you pay taxes, those "goodies" are not entirely "paid for by others. Few of us would want to live in a society to which government provided no services.
So am I. I don't pirate, and I really wish open software paid as much attention to interface and usability as to software freedom. Software freedom is of no use to me if the software is hard to use and ugly. Or, not even available. I planned to run Ubuntu Linux on my PPC iMac when Apple upgraded its OS, but the Ubuntu developers abandoned iMac development. So, now I'm using an Intel iMac.
My point regarding "free" goodies comes from the realization that I paid NO taxes last year, as my income was too low to actually pay any taxes other than SSI, so I was freeloading upon my prior years taxes and others. Well, maybe my gas taxes paid to fix the roads, but you get my point.
I agree with you re: freeware/shareware, but using the quirky products is the price you pay for not buying commercial software.
do you guys realize that everything is priced differently everywhere
what, are you gonna whine to the mayor about how housing prices aren't exactly the same everywhere
Al Patterson
02-21-2010, 17:07
do you guys realize that everything is priced differently everywhere
what, are you gonna whine to the mayor about how housing prices aren't exactly the same everywhere
Well, here in the USA, two people can walk into the same car dealership, use the same salesman, and not pay the same price. While I do understand that the folks in the EU wonder why some countries pay twice as much than others for the same product, it is what it is.
Ah well, with all the snow and cold here in the Northern Hemisphere, we seem to be engaged in a time honored game of complaining about things we can't change.
At least until it is warm enough to go out and take some photos.
Al Patterson
02-21-2010, 17:50
There used to be a law in many states, in New York it was called the fair trade law that allowed manufacturers to set prices and punish dealer for violations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade_law
I remember Crazy Eddie and others breaking the laws in New York City, when I first arrived.
Now if you go into camera stores in NYC you can get any price you can bargain out of the store. The lack of bargaining power is why I cannot imagine shopping at a many mall stores, but often even they are even flexible, if you can find the manager.
Well, the former owner of Crazy Eddie's is in jail. For securities (or tax) fraud, not consumer fraud BTW.
Somewhere, I have a Crazy Eddie's T-shirt from when he opened a store in NJ not far from where I was living at the time.
Wonder what I could get for it on "the evil auction site"?
Just buy it probably. As if that will ever happen. :D
I remember many years ago I had just bought my first Leica M6 for $900 USD (yes they were that cheap) and then went off to Italy, looked in a window in Lugano (after boating from the Italian side of the lake) and there it was for $2000 USD.
You should go back ... it's probably still there! :D
My point regarding "free" goodies comes from the realization that I paid NO taxes last year, as my income was too low to actually pay any taxes other than SSI, so I was freeloading upon my prior years taxes and others. Well, maybe my gas taxes paid to fix the roads, but you get my point.
I am in the same situation. I was laid off in October last year and have gone on unemployment compensation since. A major part of my income this year will be the hefty tax return from last year. It is at least 10,000 $. Here in Norway you are not obliged to pay income tax on anything less than 72.000 NOK (about $ 12,200) which will reduce my tax drastically this year.
robert blu
02-22-2010, 00:05
As registered user of LR I was offer by Adobe a few month later to buy CS3 (CS4 was not yet avaliable) with 50 % discount. I think that it was a valid offer and I bought it. Most of people I know (I'm speaking of amateurs, like me) use "not official" copies. They are ready to pay many Euros for a camera or a lens but not for a piece of software. I think it is a cultural aspect to consider and pay for the work of other (in this case Adobe's people). My question is: are the other clever or am I stupid ?
robert
Apple and Adobe did not force you to upgrade. That was your choice.
If your computer fails after a few years, you generally can not do anything but upgrade - often you cannot even purchase the same device ot components after half a year. What's more, Adobe artificially forces upgrades through its raw suport strategy - raw converter updates are not made available for anything but the latest version, so you must upgrade whenever you buy a new camera.
Sevo
tom.w.bn
02-22-2010, 00:15
I have a twenty-something nephew. As far as I know, he doesn't own a camera, but he has a pirated copy of PS on his laptop. Go figure.
The characterization of PS as a professional tool is important. Amateurs and professionals have different needs. They also have different skills and knowledge levels. If an amateur just wants to resize his images, make them look better and palatable for web posting, then PS is a whole lot of unnecessary hassle. Adobe recognized the difference between the amateur and the pro markets when they launched PSE. That's something they would not have done if "amateur" PSE posed any threat to "pro" PS.
Problem is, that 80-90% of the books about photo editing use Photoshop examples. That's where the demand for Photoshop comes from. People want to learn photo editing and the first thing they learn from the books is that they absolutely need Photoshop. In those books they normally don't even mention PSE.
Well, here in the USA, two people can walk into the same car dealership, use the same salesman, and not pay the same price. While I do understand that the folks in the EU wonder why some countries pay twice as much than others for the same product, it is what it is.
Ah well, with all the snow and cold here in the Northern Hemisphere, we seem to be engaged in a time honored game of complaining about things we can't change.
At least until it is warm enough to go out and take some photos.
If you look at Europe you see a maze of nations with different tax tariffs and price differences. Cars are heavily regulated. I can not buy/import a car from, say, Sweden without going through a long process which ends up with that I have to pay 30,000 $ in taxes. At least.
Add then different prices on cigarettes, booze and beer due to different tax tariffs. Or different prices of pork meat, beer or cheese due to different regimes regarding agricultural subsidies.
Borders can differ from hardly any control at all. Like between Norway and Sweden. Or with long cues of people where everybody is checked. But where the narcotics smugglers drive pass the whole cue and drive across the border with hardly no hindrance. Like between the Baltic states (the equaliant to Central America).
Take beer. A carton with 24 cans of 0,33L costs 'about' NOK 500 (ranging from 480 to 520) here in Oslo, Norway. The same carton costs 'about' SEK 300 (NOK245) in Sweden, which is one hours drive from here. The same carton costs DKK 200 (NOK 220) in Denmark. But; hold on your hat: The same carton costs € 6,80 (NOK 55) in Flensburg, Germany - as long as it is German brands. We are allowed to take 'one' carton per adult person across the border to Norway, while the limit when crossing the border between Germany and Denmark and Denmark and Sweden is practically unlimited.
Taken then pork meat, cigarettes, booze, petrol etc. etc. Environmental organisations argue that a harmonisation of prices/taxes only here in Scandinavia would reduce traffic "considerably".
tom.w.bn
02-22-2010, 00:41
If you look at Europe you see a maze of nations with different tax tariffs and price differences. Cars are heavily regulated. I can not buy/import a car from, say, Sweden without going through a long process which ends up with that I have to pay 30,000 $ in taxes. At least.
....
Love it, change it or leave it.
With your arguments (I would even call it whining) you clearly show that you are a "leave it" guy. Why don't you pack your things and move to the holy land of low taxes?
You are from Norway? Then your example about buying a car does not fit for the majority of the other european countries because your country choose not to be part of "economical europe". Inside "core Europe" what you describe is absolutely possible.
Love it, change it or leave it.
With your arguments (I would even call it whining) you clearly show that you are a "leave it" guy. Why don't you pack your things and move to the holy land of low taxes?
You are from Norway? Then your example about buying a car does not fit for the majority of the other european countries because your country choose not to be part of "economical europe". Inside "core Europe" what you describe is absolutely possible.
There is the same tax regime in Denmark (which is a part of EU) regarding cars, - but even worse. Cars cost an additional 15 - 20% in Denmark compared to Norway. All due to higher taxes. The same high car tax regime you will find in Finland which is also a part of EU. More or less: All car producing nations in Europe have no or little car tax while the non car producing nations seem to tax them considerably. Interestingly; Denmark is the country where you can buy the cheapest cars on export - tax free. Russians seems to understand this....
Chriscrawfordphoto
02-23-2010, 19:58
That is because you are not a teenage software collector.
Why do people collect anything, lunch boxes, electrical insulators? http://www.insulators.info/
My father has a bunch of those on a shelf in his house. He is retired from Verizon, where he was a lineman for the first 15 years he worked there and a construction manager the last 18 years. Most of the time he was with the company, it was called GTE; he retired right after it became Verizon, so he has a display case full of old GTE items. Tools, hats, promotional stuff, the insulators, etc. He collected them because they were a memory of his career.
Chris101
02-23-2010, 22:21
I'm a rockhound in an alternate life. Occasionally I find insulators, and I always pick them up. I must have 20 by now.
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