View Full Version : Unknown German WW II pilot's photos
Spider67
02-04-2010, 03:08
An unknown German pilot made those photos, some of them are very good:
http://einestages.spiegel.de/external/ShowTopicAlbumBackground/a6041/l0/l0/F.html#featuredEntry
Best regards
Des/Spider67
Thanks for posting those, Des - they are real people's history, for want of a better phrase! And I love the gearhead presentation, with the sprocket holes and film data.
I need to get out more, though. I guessed the aircraft type from the first photo without reading the caption...
Adrian
SimonSawSunlight
02-04-2010, 03:25
thank you very much, this is very interesting =)
Beautiful photos.
The ones of the cities have an eerie duality about them. They look like tourist photos, but of course they aimed to obliterate the sights they were recording.
THis always reminds me of a French friend's joke; he'd stayed with me once in Hull, when I was a student, and happened to mention the city to an older, German acquaintance he'd met at over dinner: "Ah, Hull," the chap responded. "I have not visited it. But I have bombed it."
tom.w.bn
02-04-2010, 03:29
Thanks for posting those, Des - they are real people's history, for want of a better phrase! And I love the gearhead presentation, with the sprocket holes and film data.
I need to get out more, though. I guessed the aircraft type from the first photo without reading the caption...
Adrian
It's not a gearhead presentation. They wrote something about photos from a contact sheet.
Mr_Flibble
02-04-2010, 03:41
I need to get out more, though. I guessed the aircraft type from the first photo without reading the caption...
Heh, yeah, had the same thing identifying the FW-189.
Wonderful historical photos. Gonna show them to some other Historical nuts now.
Cheers,
Rick
No, they are not unknown. They were pretty widely circulated over Russian internet a few years ago.
Photos mostly in the area of Kharkov, Ukraine IIRC.
Spider67
02-04-2010, 03:59
No, they are not unknown. They were pretty widely circulated over Russian internet a few years ago.
Photos mostly in the area of Kharkov, Ukraine IIRC.
The photographer is unknown as clearly stated otherwise I would have written German pilot's unknown photos. The Unit and its members also have not been identified.
Wonderful bit of insight. They could be any nationality, any air force, any group of young men. We were all young warriors once.
buzzardkid
02-04-2010, 04:13
Question: I have shot quite a number of old LTM camera's, but have never had the image extend onto the sprocket holes.
How come I see this quite often with older shots, but not nowadays? Different film size?
Interesting story: The authors of the website are trying to identify the photographer and his buddies.
Chances are that these people did not survive the war - there are indications that the squadron the planes belonged to were later moved to serve in the Stalingrad battle, which was one of the biggest defeats the German army ever had to suffer.
paulfish4570
02-04-2010, 04:20
they were fliers once, and young ...
I have this happen with my IIIf, too. Only one side but there the frame extends into the sprocket holes.
Question: I have shot quite a number of old LTM camera's, but have never had the image extend onto the sprocket holes.
How come I see this quite often with older shots, but not nowadays? Different film size?
Interesting photos, though. I was astonished about the high quality.
buzzardkid
02-04-2010, 04:52
My guess would be that the navigator is the original photographer. Seems to me him leaving his station in flight was the most likely without serious consequences. Also, there´s quite a lot of shots over the right engine, and if you look at the layout of the plane, the cockpit would be in line with the engine in those frames.
Pretty sure the guy sitting in the cockpit in the navigator seat is the navigator of that plane, if sending a snap shot home it would be most logical to send one showing every airman in their own station. The gunner shot looks kind of candid, given shadow and strong light.
Lovely shots. In the replies to the german thread there´s more links to other sites that show even more photos from the album.
This Focke Wolf had two engines on two booms. Like on the US Lightning. The crew sat in a gondola in the middle. It was a rare aicraft in the West and mostly used on the Eastern Front.
Significant are the pictures of all the Sovjet POWs. In just 8 months in 1941 - 42, the Germans killed almost 3 million Russian POWs through starvation, exposure and sumary executions. Some 30.000 (possibly more) Sovjet POWs are burried on Norwegian soil only. What we see here is a genocide in making....
Can anyone identify what kind of camera one of these flyers carries on his chest, at picture 19?
Mr_Flibble
02-04-2010, 05:18
I think I've got a shot of an FW-189 flying over Holland in early 1940 in one of my books somewhere. Don't recall if it was from just before or after the invasion of the low countries.
At picture no 18 we can see 'artillery lined up' in the foreground by the destroyed church, according to the German text. Friend or foe...?
Mr_Flibble
02-04-2010, 05:22
I think that might be a Leica in 19, though it looks a little big
Also a rare version of German WWII planes are pictured at no. 27. Most likely the version of the Ju 88 that had pressurized cockpit. The Germans had a large fleet of these at (the now international Airport of Oslo) Gardermoen. They were originally long range/high altitude reconnaisance planes. They were also used to evacuate troops from the Kurland Pocket to Berlin in the last days of the war. The crews of these flights had to scare off refugees with arms... In the last days of April 45' they gave up the flights. Which resulted in bitterness from the German troops that were taken prisoners in Kurland and sent to Siberia. Here most of them died or came home first in 54'.
Picture 28 shows a 'fliegender knipser', ein soldat der keine Fliegmonteur trägt.
A soldier/phographer with no flight harness.
Significant is also the German text to picture no. 7. "Aufallende" (to be noted) are the bad teeth of the pilot... When I did my military service training with the British No.2 Para in Finmark, Norway, some 20 years ago, not many of the British guys had that much teeth even.
Ronald_H
02-04-2010, 05:51
I think I've got a shot of an FW-189 flying over Holland in early 1940 in one of my books somewhere. Don't recall if it was from just before or after the invasion of the low countries.
Are you sure that it wasn't a Fokker G.1? The G.1 has a superficial resemblance to the Fw-189, they are both twin engined, twin boom aircraft with a central nacelle for the crew. The G.1 is much more streamlined and has a solid nose, it was a fighter after all, not an observation plane. This is a picture of a G.1 replica in the Militairy aviation museum in Soesterberg, the Netherlands.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3559/3613150985_e2fcaa367d_o.jpg
"An Bord der Maschine langt ein Besatzungsmitglied zu seiner Leica und fotografiert aus dem Cockpit die zusammengepferchten Männer inmitten des großen, weiten Nichts: gefangene Rotarmisten vor dem Abtransport in deutsche Kriegsgefangenschaft..."
How can they know it was a Leica? That the Red Army Soldiers were marched to prison is also an exaggeration. Most were marched off to death.
buzzardkid
02-04-2010, 05:53
Picture 28 shows a 'fliegender knipser', ein soldat der keine Fliegmonteur trägt.
A soldier/phographer with no flight harness.
That man might have been a war correspondent, a 'kriegsberichter'.
He is also the one in this shot, I think:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=76640&stc=1&d=1265294741
Early Kriegsberichters often were journalists before the war, many of them were lured into service before the campaign on Poland with stories on excitement, private cars and drivers and photo journalists to accompany them.
Once the war progressed, their priviledges were revoked more and more and pretty soon they were given weapons to 'defend themselves' when reporting from the front. Later Kriegsberichters more often were convinced party or SS-members.
The camera is a Leica, with a finder on top. Seems there's a rigid lens with a round hood on it. Also, the snout on the case is quite deep. Might be a Wartime Sonnar or a Xenon lens, which were quite rare lenses in military service.
Michael Markey
02-04-2010, 05:55
Really interesting. Thank you for the link. I have an album full of photos from that period taken by my father in India and Burma.
Also a rare version of German WWII planes are pictured at no. 27. Most likely the version of the Ju 88 that had pressurized cockpit. The Germans had a large fleet of these at (the now international Airport of Oslo) Gardermoen. They were originally long range/high altitude reconnaisance planes. They were also used to evacuate troops from the Kurland Pocket to Berlin in the last days of the war. The crews of these flights had to scare off refugees with arms... In the last days of April 45' they gave up the flights. Which resulted in bitterness from the German troops that were taken prisoners in Kurland and sent to Siberia. Here most of them died or came home first in 54'.
I think you are right. Except for that this version is called Junkers 188. Here is some photos from Gardermoen, Norway of these rare birds:
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW4/Ju188-D2-9s.jpg
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW3/ju188-003.jpg
Most likely, these pictures are taken after the V-day, late 45', possibly. Then most of the flyable fleet of Luftwaffe planes were lined up here at Gardermoen. Most planes were destroyed (help! they would be worth a fortune today!) But these rare pressurized versions were flown to USA for closer investigation.
Some posts start arguments, this post is a major exception. What an interesting discussion.
No, they are not unknown. They were pretty widely circulated over Russian internet a few years ago.
Photos mostly in the area of Kharkov, Ukraine IIRC.
Which could explain that the crew did not survive.
This film seems to be one of the many WWII relics that have surfaced after 1991 and the 'opening' of the Iron Curtain. When I was first time in Russia, back in 93' there was all these street sellers selling off, cheaply, all kinds of WWII relics. This market matured fast, though. By 95' groups of collectors came to buy whole aircraft engines from wreaks strewn all over Russia. Particularly popular was the DB601 of Messerschmidt 109 fame.
direwolf101
02-04-2010, 06:38
Terrific link and very informative discussion!
Reading the German text further down, the flight unit is identified as 'Tannenberg', Nahaufklärungsgruppe 10 (short range reconnoisance) that flew over Charkow in Ukraina in May and June 42'. It argues, since the film contains all these POW pictures that they are not taken during the Wehrmach retreat of 43'. That means the film is, most likely, from 42'. The summer before the catastrophical (for the Germans that is) Stalingrad. Here the Germans were beaten by the Red Army, Some 250.000 German soldiers were taken prisoner. Possibley the no 2 largest military defeat in history, - except for the Japanese defeating the British at Singapore.
It's not a gearhead presentation. They wrote something about photos from a contact sheet.
:o That'll teach me... should have at least tried to pick a few familiar words out of the caption (or the dreaded Babelfish...).
Adrian
outfitter
02-04-2010, 07:17
Some of those aerial photographs show Kharkov, home of the FED camera factory. The FW189 was a reconnaissance aircraft that was the eyes of the German army as they completely destroyed Kharkov. Seventy percent of the city was destroyed and tens of thousands of the inhabitants were killed. Kharkiv, the third largest city in the Soviet Union at the time, was the most populous city in the Soviet Union captured by Nazis. Between December 1941 and January 1942, an estimated 30,000 people (slightly more than half Jewish) were killed and buried in a mass grave by the Germans in a ravine outside of town named Drobitsky Yar.
It is just a record of human madness, young men smiling and strutting, as they prepare for their own deaths and provide the method for the meaningless slaughter of fellow Europeans, at the whims of the insane. Not much to argue about.
That is indeed what it is. They were just as powerless as we are today, trying to stop wars and killings. Look up the other photos in this Spiegel collection.
Mr_Flibble
02-04-2010, 08:14
flight unit is identified as 'Tannenberg', Nahaufklärungsgruppe 10 (short range reconnoisance) that flew over Charkow in Ukraina in May and June 42'.
That concurs with what I've found on the aircraft in "Warplanes and Fighters of WW2" by Anderton, Gunston and Mason; The book mentions that in 1942 Aufklarungsgruppe 10 and 11 on the Eastern Front finally received FW-189A-1s and A-2s in numbers.
Ronald_H, I was sure it was an FW-189 in that image, not a Fokker G1. The caption too, if I recall correctly, stated that it was an strangely shaped German Aircraft. Of course, I can't seem to find the picture now. It's probably in the Dutch Lecturama Encyclopedia on WW2. But the most obvious book "Bange Meidagen van '40" did not contain it...grrr...
buzzardkid
02-04-2010, 09:12
The FED factory was situated in Kharkov. I have two wartime FED-S cameras, although one of them is without a serial number. The other one was assembled during the war, possibly during the siege of Kharkov.
The numbered kit is for sale (don't like to but I need to fund an education), the other one was overhauled and authenticated by Yuri at Fedka.com. On that website is an interesting article on the Kharkov FED factory, as outfitter recently pointed out to me. Thanks, outfitter!
Significant is also the German text to picture no. 7. "Aufallende" (to be noted) are the bad teeth of the pilot... When I did my military service training with the British No.2 Para in Finmark, Norway, some 20 years ago, not many of the British guys had that much teeth even.
I remember reading, years and years ago in one of the books written by Norwegians that survived KZs (some prominent post-war politician, Bratteli or Gerhardsen maybe), that they always got teased by the German criminal prisoners because the Norwegians had such bad teeth and got all kinds of problems because of it. I think this was in Sachsenhausen. Evidently, according to the book, dental hygiene was a lot better in Germany (indeed in Norway at that time it was not uncommon for 15-years olds receiving their confirmation to get a set of artificial teeth for this occasion). This might indicate that the pilot is from a poor family or something like that. I'm just guessing.
/Mac
buzzardkid
02-04-2010, 09:22
I have a small collection of kriegsberichter memorabilia, one of which is this photograph:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=76644&stc=1&d=1265307496
It shows a young German SS kriegsberichter, complete with his kriegsberichter armband and a Leica with FIDOM finder. Obviously shot in a studio, possibly a picture to give to his girl friend or mother.
I find the fact that he is looking so calmly proud and innocent heartbreaking. War had not yet left a mark on him, it seems.
So many lives lost, such waste. He might have become a brilliant photographer, we will never know. I do not even know his name.
Chuck Albertson
02-04-2010, 09:47
I don't think I'd want to be the pilot of that aircraft if anyone was shooting at it--the cockpit is a flying greenhouse!
buzzardkid
02-04-2010, 09:48
On this (http://www.robot-camera.de/ROBOT_Kameras/Robot_II/Robot_II_Luftwaffe/robot_ii_luftwaffe.html)page, there is an interesting account about a former airman on a Focke-Wulf 189 Uhu and on the Robot cameras that were fitted in those planes.
outfitter
02-04-2010, 10:24
Which could explain that the crew did not survive.
This film seems to be one of the many WWII relics that have surfaced after 1991 and the 'opening' of the Iron Curtain. When I was first time in Russia, back in 93' there was all these street sellers selling off, cheaply, all kinds of WWII relics. This market matured fast, though. By 95' groups of collectors came to buy whole aircraft engines from wreaks strewn all over Russia. Particularly popular was the DB601 of Messerschmidt 109 fame.
Unfortunately private Germans soldiers also had a penchant for photographing raping, pillaging and murder (which were apparently considered good deeds in carrying out their country's plans for colonizing most of Europe) and many of these unbelievably awful personal "snaps" have also begun to surface.
thanks OP for sharing the link.
... Some 30.000 (possibly more) Sovjet POWs are burried on Norwegian soil only. What we see here is a genocide in making....
exactly, how hard reality it must have been down there. cant even imagine, I probably would have gone nuts in a few days...
http://einestages.spiegel.de/hund-images/2010/02/02/42/fb35589de031a680d1ac5e922627e11f_image_document_la rge_featured_borderless.jpg
Here is a picture from the same collection. An advertising of Voigtländer claiming that one German soldier had his life saved by carrying one. The text going with the picture claims that German soldiers were encouraged to take photos of their war service. When I did my military service we were forbidden bring cameras and take pictures. Military secrets, we were told. It was important that the Russians did not know that our boots leaked water....
Voigtländers save lives! Hum, good I have one.
photovdz
02-04-2010, 14:49
save life or not... I bought a Bessa (Voigtländer) that was "recuperated" by a Belgian resistant when they attacked the Saint Ghislain railway node in '43... the guy left a note indicating that they killed a group of 3 german sentinels, and took their equipment... and that they spotted one soldier with a leather etui and thinking it was binoculars (that they specially needed) they cut his throat... but it was only a Voïgtländer Bessa (not useful).
Strangely the guy kept the camera and used it and his son sold it on ebay for peanuts... it's only when I went to get the camera that i received the note written by the father and telling the story.
Here is a rare flock of a **holes.
From the left:
Dr. Josef Mengele. Experimented with humans at Auschwitz. Like burning jews in an owen 'to see how much they could take'. Escaped to South America and managed to avoid trial, and most likely execution. Much due to lackluster ethusiasm of the West German government to try to search for him and bring him to justice. Died in Brazil in 79'.
Rudolf Höss. 'Kommandant' of Auschwitz. During his term' as kommandant more than a million people perished in Auschwitz. Condemned to death and hanged in 47'.
Josef Kramer ('The Beast of the Belsen') and in charge of the gas chambers of the Ausschwitz-Birkenau camps. Hanged in 45'.
The next guy is unknown.
save life or not... I bought a Bessa (Voigtländer) that was "recuperated" by a Belgian resistant when they attacked the Saint Ghislain railway node in '43... the guy left a note indicating that they killed a group of 3 german sentinels, and took their equipment... and that they spotted one soldier with a leather etui and thinking it was binoculars (that they specially needed) they cut his throat... but it was only a Voïgtländer Bessa (not useful).
Strangely the guy kept the camera and used it and his son sold it on ebay for peanuts... it's only when I went to get the camera that i received the note written by the father and telling the story.
Fascinating story, . . . eBay for pete's sake.
Unfortunately private Germans soldiers also had a penchant for photographing raping, pillaging and murder (which were apparently considered good deeds in carrying out their country's plans for colonizing most of Europe) and many of these unbelievably awful personal "snaps" have also begun to surface.
Great movie, "The Music Box", involves this fact.
Great movie, "The Music Box", involves this fact.
What's this guy on? Something you smoke, drink or inject? (I dropped the snort, since that makes you sharp) He shouldn't bicycle to close to The Grassy Knoll. If he can get on his bike at all... Ha, ha!
Here is a rare flock of a **holes.
From the left:
Dr. Josef Mengele. Experimented with humans at Auschwitz. Like burning jews in an owen 'to see how much they could take'. Escaped to South America and managed to avoid trial, and most likely execution. Much due to lackluster ethusiasm of the West German government to try to search for him and bring him to justice. Died in Brazil in 79'.
Rudolf Höss. 'Kommandant' of Auschwitz. During his term' as kommandant more than a million people perished in Auschwitz. Condemned to death and hanged in 47'.
Josef Kramer ('The Beast of the Belsen') and in charge of the gas chambers of the Ausschwitz-Birkenau camps. Hanged in 45'.
The next guy is unknown.
This is a very good picture. You can almost smell the faint smell of "schnaps und sigaretten" from this after dinner scene. "The Beast" seems to have got one schnaps too many. Taken at a hut some 30 km from the Auschwitz camp were the crew could rest and get away from the awful smell of the crematorium ovens.
Unfortunately private Germans soldiers also had a penchant for photographing raping, pillaging and murder (which were apparently considered good deeds in carrying out their country's plans for colonizing most of Europe) and many of these unbelievably awful personal "snaps" have also begun to surface.
Like these (http://images.google.de/images?q=abu%20ghraib)?
Cheers,
Uwe
Can we all agree that the soldiers of all nations have been responsible for their shares of war crimes, and leave it at that!
My father hated the Nazis; they attempted to pressgang him into the German army, they murdered many of his relatives, and he fought them as part of the French resistance, in North Africa, and Italy. His mum was German.
Anyone who mentions events at Kharkov has a right to criticise the regime that unleashed such horros, without it being taken as a denigration of the German people of today. Please let's leave it at that, or this thread will descend into irrelevant nastiness.
buzzardkid
02-05-2010, 02:57
So, the Germans had Kriegsberichters, the Americans and other allied forces allowed independent reporters as well as signalling corps soldiers to report from the front too.
I wonder if there ever were any special units at the Russian end to report from the battle front? Seems to me Stalin also had quite the propaganda machine going... And how about the Japanese?
Were the Germans the only party in WWII that institutionalised war reporting for propagandist means? Did the Russians allow for independent media to report from the front? Anybody any info on this?
The Germans mainly used Leica's and Kodak Retina's on the front line, the Americans mainly shot Kodak Medalists I was told, or the Kodak 35, right? What were the other parties using?
Can we all agree that the soldiers of all nations have been responsible for their shares of war crimes, and leave it at that!
My father hated the Nazis; they attempted to pressgang him into the German army, they murdered many of his relatives, and he fought them as part of the French resistance, in North Africa, and Italy. His mum was German.
Anyone who mentions events at Kharkov has a right to criticise the regime that unleashed such horros, without it being taken as a denigration of the German people of today. Please let's leave it at that, or this thread will descend into irrelevant nastiness.
My father participated, among others, in three landings in the Mediterraean and was appalled and shocked by the disrespect of human life. On both sides. He argued that there 'were facists on all sides' of the WWII. Like so many of his generation, WWII destroyed his life. We can do little about the sins of our fathers and grandfathers. But we all certainly could do more to prevent war and injustice today.
Brian Sweeney
02-05-2010, 03:45
I've learned over the years that the RFF community simply does not have the maturity and self-control required to bring up the words "Nazi", "World-War", "President Bush", "COmmunist", and just about anything else not directly related to discussing camera gear.
And if you really want a serious debate, lets convert this to a
Film is Dead because it is a Chinese Communist Plot to Dominate the World with Electronic Gadgets made like CRAP that will directly upload your every image to a server in China and then Censor Them.
Time to close this thread was passed with page 1.
Philip Whiteman
02-05-2010, 03:54
Brian: I see a range of sensible, balanced and informative comment running through this thread. I have to disagree with you.
So, the Germans had Kriegsberichters, the Americans and other allied forces allowed independent reporters as well as signalling corps soldiers to report from the front too.
I wonder if there ever were any special units at the Russian end to report from the battle front? Seems to me Stalin also had quite the propaganda machine going... And how about the Japanese?
Were the Germans the only party in WWII that institutionalised war reporting for propagandist means? Did the Russians allow for independent media to report from the front? Anybody any info on this?
The Germans mainly used Leica's and Kodak Retina's on the front line, the Americans mainly shot Kodak Medalists I was told, or the Kodak 35, right? What were the other parties using?
All sides used propaganda during WWII. Neither party had anything like a 'free and independant press' during WWII. Propaganda films of the Stalin era are legendary. So, are American newsreels from WWII. Both intended to prep up morale by exagerating their own success. Both typical with load music and commentators roaring out optimistic percentage figures about everything, - except their own human losses.
The War Generation had an ability to see through all the lies. - Which we have lost today. Here in Norway, German newsreels were shown with Norwegian comentaries. It was said that when the film showed the Germans andvancing towards the East and there were no limit to their success, advancing troops were shown with horses pullig waggons. When one of the horses crossing the screen seemed to be limping it created a roaring laughter among the public,...
So, the Germans had Kriegsberichters, the Americans and other allied forces allowed independent reporters as well as signalling corps soldiers to report from the front too.
I wonder if there ever were any special units at the Russian end to report from the battle front? Seems to me Stalin also had quite the propaganda machine going... And how about the Japanese?
Were the Germans the only party in WWII that institutionalised war reporting for propagandist means? Did the Russians allow for independent media to report from the front? Anybody any info on this?
The Germans mainly used Leica's and Kodak Retina's on the front line, the Americans mainly shot Kodak Medalists I was told, or the Kodak 35, right? What were the other parties using?
There`s quite a number of Sovient propaganda photos even from 1941-42 period, when Red Army got a set of local vistories (or succesful episodes) at least.
Please consider that number of private cameras in USSR was pretty small. Life level was far far lower than in Europe.
Common gear was same as German had + some soviet cameras like FED or Fotokor.
Most of `independent` Soviet photos are photos often classified as `secret`, because they`re used for internal army reports.
Just a simple example:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/Granit/1944/Gef_kolonne.jpg
Is this 1941-42 and russian POW? Nope.
This is July1944 and `Bagration` offensive German POWs. Photo is taken by 1st Soviet Air Army photographer and was kept in Archive for decades.
More 1944 photos here (Blog of russian war historian):
http://dr-guillotin.livejournal.com/75705.html#cutid1
Brian Sweeney
02-05-2010, 03:57
There is a range of intelligent comments intermixed with sheer hatred. Just keep an eye on this one.
Brian - I doubt that we need the People's Party in Beijing to close off this thread when freedom loving Americans such as yourself are here to call in the censors.
Seeing those young soldiers brought back some memories of my own during the years of a police action in S.E. Asia. It may not be everyone's cup of tea - but it is good someone shared the photographic archive.
Brian: I see a range of sensible, balanced and informative comment running through this thread. I have to disagree with you.
And if you really want a serious debate, lets convert this to a
Film is Dead because it is a Chinese Communist Plot to Dominate the World with Electronic Gadgets made like CRAP that will directly upload your every image to a server in China and then Censor Them.
Philip,
I have to agree with Brian. :angel:
Cheers,
Uwe
There`s quite a number of Sovient propaganda photos even from 1941-42 period, when Red Army got a set of local vistories (or succesful episodes) at least.
Please consider that number of private cameras in USSR was pretty small. Life level was far far lower than in Europe.
Common gear was same as German had + some soviet cameras like FED or Fotokor.
Most of `independent` Soviet photos are photos often classified as `secret`, because they`re used for internal army reports.
Just a simple example:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/Granit/1944/Gef_kolonne.jpg
Is this 1941-42 and russian POW? Nope.
This is July1944 and `Bagration` offensive German POWs. Photo is taken by 1st Soviet Air Army photographer and was kept in Archive for decades.
More 1944 photos here (Blog of russian war historian):
http://dr-guillotin.livejournal.com/75705.html#cutid1
This is indeed true for Norway too. Very few had amateur cameras in 1940. With the German invasion of 9th of April 1940 came a huge wave of well equipped and quite competent amateur photographers. Remember; the camera business was totally dominated by the Germans back then.
Our National Archive has large amount of films and pictures taken, not only by German professional press photographers, but also by German amateurs. It is a huge resource to document everything from railway station architecture and pre WWII harbour constructions to historical events and persons - and what not. The huge volume of amateur photography comes to Norway with the German soldier.
- On the picture of his friends waiting to be sent eastwards is not the friends that is interesting anymore. But the shape of the railway station windows in the background is the source to restoration of the old railway station building to it's original shape today. To mention one example.
...
- On the picture of his friends waiting to be sent eastwards is not the friends that is interesting anymore. But the shape of the railway station windows in the background is the source to restoration of the old railway station building to it's original shape today. To mention one example.
From a historian's or conservator's point of view, I fully agree.
However, I am more interested in the people in these snapshots.
They were young lads like us (or like we were - for some).
When I see pictures like that, I wonder what were the lads like, did they believe the propaganda, and what became of them?
Cheers,
Uwe
Spider67
02-05-2010, 04:58
The Soviets for example had photographers like Yevgeniy Khaldei who made the famous picture of the hoisting of the Soviet flag on the Reichstag. One of the soldiers had several wristwatches on his arm which were removed by retouching. A few months ago a historian claimed that that was not the only way that picture was tampered with.
Khaldey also revisited some of the people whose pictures he had taken and photographed them again.
I live in Austria and among my old folders there is one with the engraving of a French Camera shop, makes me wonder how that Camera made its way. It could easily have been stolen in WWII by a German soldier.
Mr_Flibble
02-05-2010, 05:37
Johan,
The most numerously issued camera to the US military in World War 2 would still be the Graflex 4x5 Speed Graphic. Medalists were mainly used by the Navy. But many private purchase cameras were used by all branches of service. Jorge Lewinski mentions that as many as 1 in 2 GIs carried a camera at the end of the war.
British APFU soldiers mainly carried Zeiss Super Ikontas acquired through Turkey, And a few lucky ones got Kodak Medalists (for color). No 35mm film cameras were issued due to the limited supply of film.
As for other forces I can't really say. "Stalin's War" by Laszlo Bekesi has a picture of two Russian Scouts using a FED - NKVD with a massive telelens attached. Probably not for propaganda purposes ;)
Photojournalists from other Allied countries were allowed to witness the horrors of the Eastern Front as well. Margaret Bourke-White amongst them.
From a historian's or conservator's point of view, I fully agree.
However, I am more interested in the people in these snapshots.
They were young lads like us (or like we were - for some).
When I see pictures like that, I wonder what were the lads like, did they believe the propaganda, and what became of them?
Cheers,
Uwe
Indeed.
A shrill goes down my spine when reading the comment that the photographer has written on the backside of this picture: Commerades dig graves. Two days later they themselves were burried too...
Florian1234
02-05-2010, 08:34
Johan,
The most numerously issued camera to the US military in World War 2 would still be the Graflex 4x5 Speed Graphic. Medalists were mainly used by the Navy. But many private purchase cameras were used by all branches of service. Jorge Lewinski mentions that as many as 1 in 2 GIs carried a camera at the end of the war.
There's a video around on youtube or so where US photographer and then soldier Tony Vaccaro talks about how much he liked his Contax (I think it was one) over the Graflex and how he used to develope his films at night in helmets. :D
Regarding the initial posting about the photos - I think that must have been either a guy from a PK unit (for this speak the shots of higher officers, although it could be that they landed near a staff and staged it) or a richer guy given the fact that he had not only one camera and lens.
Nikkor AIS
02-05-2010, 09:20
Amazing photos. Thanks for sharing the link.
Gregory
Question: I have shot quite a number of old LTM camera's, but have never had the image extend onto the sprocket holes.
How come I see this quite often with older shots, but not nowadays? Different film size?
The older Leicas, like the Leica II(I know because I have one and it does this) were made to be used with special Leitz cassettes, which were hand loaded. My guess is that the photographer was using an older Leica with a modern cassette, which makes sense since the frames are numbered. The modern cassettes are a little shorter and cause the image to overlap the sprocket holes.
Wouldn't surprise me a bit if these guys aren't still hanging around as retired Lockheed and NASA engineers...
no idea if there is any truth to it - a retiring commercial Japanese pilot is asked where he wants to fly to for his last flight, and he picks Hawaii, where he has never flown commercially. Upon seeing the islands, he says something like "wow, it's been a long long time since I've been here...had to leave in a hurry" ...
Beautiful photos.
The ones of the cities have an eerie duality about them. They look like tourist photos, but of course they aimed to obliterate the sights they were recording.
THis always reminds me of a French friend's joke; he'd stayed with me once in Hull, when I was a student, and happened to mention the city to an older, German acquaintance he'd met at over dinner: "Ah, Hull," the chap responded. "I have not visited it. But I have bombed it."
Wouldn't surprise me a bit if these guys aren't still hanging around as retired Lockheed and NASA engineers...
...or as retired CIA employees...
Mr_Flibble
02-05-2010, 10:48
no idea if there is any truth to it - a retiring commercial Japanese pilot is asked where he wants to fly to for his last flight, and he picks Hawaii, where he has never flown commercially. Upon seeing the islands, he says something like "wow, it's been a long long time since I've been here...had to leave in a hurry" ...
That reminds me of another story about a British commercial pilot flying to Frankfurt. Upon landing and accidentally picking the wrong gate to park up he has an argument with the control tower. "You have messed up the entire flight schedule! Have you not been to Frankfurt Flugplatz before!". To which the pilot replies: "I have. A few times before. Only at night, and I didn't land"
I love the photograph of Dserschinski-Platz - photo #12. I'm surprised I had not come across it in my architectural studies. It makes me think of Steven Holl's "Linked Hybrid" building in Beijing which recently opened.
On the sprocket-hole allignment, every Kiev I've owned overlaps sprocket holes, so the camera might have been a Contax.
That reminds me of another story about a British commercial pilot flying to Frankfurt. Upon landing and accidentally picking the wrong gate to park up he has an argument with the control tower. "You have messed up the entire flight schedule! Have you not been to Frankfurt Flugplatz before!". To which the pilot replies: "I have. A few times before. Only at night, and I didn't land"
My father was a pilot during the war and flew first this rare bird at Akurøyri Iceland- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_N-3PB and the somewhat better known Mosquito IV (bomber version) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito - the last one over the landings at Sicily, Salerno and Anzio, among others.
In the late 60' or early 70' he flew with different airliners from Sydney Australia back home to Norway and 'knew all the pilots'. Most of whom had flown bombers over Germany during WWII. My father was a pilot in RNAF up until 47' (or thereabouts, I am not sure, really) when close to half the airforce was sacked. There were no use for them anymore.
I love the photograph of Dserschinski-Platz - photo #12. I'm surprised I had not come across it in my architectural studies. It makes me think of Steven Holl's "Linked Hybrid" building in Beijing which recently opened.
AS you might know, St.Petersburg is a architectual revelation. Not only the old part, the Winter Palace, Nevsky Prospect, along the Moika and all that, but also the buildings from the Stalin era. The buildings from this era is in a ring around the old city and far far better than the dull, grey and awful department blocks built later. And indeed, the famous and beautiful Moscow Metro is a product of the Stalin age. He had good taste, that old bugger!
vdonovan
02-05-2010, 12:40
Thank you for posting these. Fascinating and terrifying.
He nailed the exposure inside the plane. Did he use a meter, I wonder? Or just Sunny 16? I doubt he called it that...
Thank you for posting these. Fascinating and terrifying.
He nailed the exposure inside the plane. Did he use a meter, I wonder? Or just Sunny 16? I doubt he called it that...
Good question.
My experience is that it is actually difficult to set exposure from planes. It depends on if you are pointing the camera downwards or includes some sky. In the latter example, - as my picture bellow. You have to open up considderably when pointing the lens towards the ground. It can't have been easy. That's all I can say.
The photo bellow have I taken from a glider. Over Wärmland, Sweden on a beautiful summers day. With my old Canon EOS3 - 100ASA Kodak Gold.
He nailed the exposure inside the plane. Did he use a meter, I wonder? Or just Sunny 16? I doubt he called it that...
Nah, we call it: "Sonne lacht - Blende 8"
Cheers,
Uwe
brainwood
02-05-2010, 13:33
Thank you for this time capsule . It serves as a reminder of the humanity of war - I feel I know something about this man from 60 years ago from these images . Some of his portraits and in cockpit shots are very good. Thanks for posting
Nikon Bob
02-05-2010, 14:18
Nah, we call it: "Sonne lacht - Blende 8"
Cheers,
Uwe
Sunny 8?
Bob
My father was a pilot during the war and flew first this rare bird at Akurøyri Iceland- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_N-3PB and the somewhat better known Mosquito IV (bomber version) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito - the last one over the landings at Sicily, Salerno and Anzio, among others.
In the late 60' or early 70' he flew with different airliners from Sydney Australia back home to Norway and 'knew all the pilots'. Most of whom had flown bombers over Germany during WWII. My father was a pilot in RNAF up until 47' (or thereabouts, I am not sure, really) when close to half the airforce was sacked. There were no use for them anymore.
Olsen,
Your father served first in Sq. 330 at Iceland with Northrops and then at Sq. 334 with Mosquitoes, right? Then it must have been the Mosquito Mrk. VI - Fighter/bomber version, - with cannons in the nose. Not the IV bomber version w/glass nose. Sq. 334 had only the Mrk VI version.
Olsen,
Your father served first in Sq. 330 at Iceland with Northrops and then at Sq. 334 with Mosquitoes, right? Then it must have been the Mosquito Mrk. VI - Fighter/bomber version, - with cannons in the nose. Not the IV bomber version w/glass nose. Sq. 334 had only the Mrk VI version.
Spoks,
You are absolutely right. It's me føcking up the latin numbers. My father first went to 'Little Norway' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Norway )for flight training, - actually only Toronto Flying Club when he went trough there in late 40' - early 41'. Then with 330 sq. to Akurøyri, Iceland, then to Leuchards Scotland with Sq. 333 'B-wing' - which had the 'Mosquitoes mark six'. This wing was later formed as a new squadron; sq. 334. Both served under British Coastal Command. But he also served at other british units within the BCC. Which sq. numbers, I don't remember anymore. He also managed to put in a year at Dartmouth Naval Collage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Royal_Naval_College before coming home in late 45'. My father died in 86'. They dropped bombs, mines, debt chargers, fired rockets and cannons against, mostly, German shipping.
One plane from the 333/443 sq. has survived the war and is exhibited at Norsk Luftfartsmuseum (http://www.luftfart.museum.no/Utstillinger/default.htm ). The only surviving Northrop N-3PB is exhibited at the 'flight collection' at Gardermoen, Oslo.
John Robertson
02-05-2010, 15:18
No, they are not unknown. They were pretty widely circulated over Russian internet a few years ago.
Photos mostly in the area of Kharkov, Ukraine IIRC.
Home of the FED camera factory (Leica copy), a bit ironic!!:rolleyes:
On the sprocket-hole allignment, every Kiev I've owned overlaps sprocket holes, so the camera might have been a Contax.
It didn't even occur to me that it might not be a Leica.:o
The picture bellow catched my attention. 'The last holiday in Berlin', sayes the text. This is towards the end of the war when the Germans understand that the war is going wrong. The Russians are advancing fast. The guy on leave is the young fellow in the white jacket. He later fought in Italy, but managed to desert to the Americans and survived the war. - Miraculously, after have fought at Monte Casino, one of the toughest fights in the west. Most likely, we see here his mother, father, sister and grandmother.
It is the faces of the women that catches my attention. Particularly the grandmother. She reminds me of my own grandmother. She had two sons out fighting during the war and her husband in a consentration camp (Grini, Norway). She was worried sick about them. She carried this worry with her for the rest of her life. Still, my grandmother was lucky. Her husband and sons came home. Nor was her home overrun by clashing armies. She lived in Bergen, on the west coast of Norway.
The family we see here lived in Berlin. The eye of the storm to come. What happened to them? Did they survive?
David Murphy
02-05-2010, 16:22
I don't think I'd want to be the pilot of that aircraft if anyone was shooting at it--the cockpit is a flying greenhouse!
Actually the visibility that cockpit affords is quite unique and in that way enhances safety. Pilots spend a whole lot of the time trying not to bump into other airplanes (ruins your day). I'm sure it made formation flying much easier.
John Robertson
02-05-2010, 17:54
On the sprocket-hole allignment, every Kiev I've owned overlaps sprocket holes, so the camera might have been a Contax.
Possibly but my old Leica 11 (1938model) also overlaps the sprocket holes especially with either a 35 or 28mm lens.:rolleyes:
The picture bellow catched my attention. 'The last holiday in Berlin', sayes the text. This is towards the end of the war when the Germans understand that the war is going wrong. The Russians are advancing fast. The guy on leave is the young fellow in the white jacket. He later fought in Italy, but managed to desert to the Americans and survived the war. - Miraculously, after have fought at Monte Casino, one of the toughest fights in the west. Most likely, we see here his mother, father, sister and grandmother.
It is the faces of the women that catches my attention. Particularly the grandmother. She reminds me of my own grandmother. She had two sons out fighting during the war and her husband in a consentration camp (Grini, Norway). She was worried sick about them. She carried this worry with her for the rest of her life. Still, my grandmother was lucky. Her husband and sons came home. Nor was her home overrun by clashing armies. She lived in Bergen, on the west coast of Norway.
The family we see here lived in Berlin. The eye of the storm to come. What happened to them? Did they survive?
It might be us reading too much into what was maybe just a snap, but I think you are right, there's something, especially in the faces of the women.
My family had one member dying in Sachsenhausen after one of the many very amateurish resistance groups (I think his entire part was just stealing some equipment) was cracked. Another one was an anti-commie and I believe he died at Narva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Narva_(1944)) or just before or after that battle. The details are a bit muddy. They who knew him say he wasn't really into the nazi stuff. He wanted to fight the russkies and he believed those that did could end up forming the backbone in a future Norwegian army when the war was over and the Germans left. He also briefly fought the Germans as a conscript at the battle of Narvik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Narvik) during the German invasion of Norway.
The last "war story" I got is from my grandfather, a simple farmer/fisherman like the rest of my family, who briefly hid and helped a German deserter to flee to Sweden. The Swedes sent him back and he was shot. True to his word, he did however not give them up and they got through the war safe and sound. My dad however, lived in the part of Northern Norway that was burnt by the retreating Germans when the russkies advanced down Finnmark county. He was born in October 1944 and thus he was just a toddler when he was "evacuated" the dreadful winter of 44/45. They where very poor and lost everything. On the other hand, as his mother put it, they did not have much to loose anyway.
/Mac
Actually the visibility that cockpit affords is quite unique and in that way enhances safety. Pilots spend a whole lot of the time trying not to bump into other airplanes (ruins your day). I'm sure it made formation flying much easier.
Coincidentally, I just read a couple of books on this sibject, with a huge amount of first person recollections from Battle of Britain pilots.
In the early days of the Battle the Brit Hurricans (who dealt with the bombers) would clamp themselves onto their tails.
As time went on, a lot of them favoured head-on attacks. They would pop out of the clouds, and head straight for that open, visible cockpit, firiing as they went. From their direction, there was no armour plate to protect the crew. THey liked to see that they'd actually kllled the pilots, perhaps a couple more of the crew, enjoyed seeing them run from their seats or try and escape.
THey felt their nation was being terrorised, and by now wanted to terrorise the Luftwaffe crew in turn; they were quite happy to have the plane return if the pilots were dead, so the remaining crew could tell their comrades what awaited them.
There are a lot of almost-loving stories in this vein, describing the pleasure they got in killing the people who wanted to subjugate them.
Coincidentally, I just read a couple of books on this sibject, with a huge amount of first person recollections from Battle of Britain pilots.
In the early days of the Battle the Brit Hurricans (who dealt with the bombers) would clamp themselves onto their tails.
As time went on, a lot of them favoured head-on attacks. They would pop out of the clouds, and head straight for that open, visible cockpit, firiing as they went. From their direction, there was no armour plate to protect the crew. THey liked to see that they'd actually kllled the pilots, perhaps a couple more of the crew, enjoyed seeing them run from their seats or try and escape.
THey felt their nation was being terrorised, and by now wanted to terrorise the Luftwaffe crew in turn; they were quite happy to have the plane return if the pilots were dead, so the remaining crew could tell their comrades what awaited them.
There are a lot of almost-loving stories in this vein, describing the pleasure they got in killing the people who wanted to subjugate them.
Which tells me that nothing is won by deliberately bombing civilians.
The result is only an even more motivated enemy. This can be seen from The Battle of Britain, the Bombing of German cities, bombing of Hanoi, North Vietnam and the Israeli bombing of Beiruth, - and Gaza. We even see signs of a more motivated enemy facing NATO and US forces in Afganistan after some distasterous bombings of civilians lately.
This is a very important lesson to learn: Don't bomb civilians.
I read somewhere that the average combat life-span of a RAF fighter pilot in the battle of Britain was 22 seconds, and 80% of sorties made contact (or that could have been the interception rate)
Either way one can understand their enthusiasm.
Coincidentally, I just read a couple of books on this sibject, with a huge amount of first person recollections from Battle of Britain pilots.
In the early days of the Battle the Brit Hurricans (who dealt with the bombers) would clamp themselves onto their tails.
As time went on, a lot of them favoured head-on attacks. They would pop out of the clouds, and head straight for that open, visible cockpit, firiing as they went. From their direction, there was no armour plate to protect the crew. THey liked to see that they'd actually kllled the pilots, perhaps a couple more of the crew, enjoyed seeing them run from their seats or try and escape.
THey felt their nation was being terrorised, and by now wanted to terrorise the Luftwaffe crew in turn; they were quite happy to have the plane return if the pilots were dead, so the remaining crew could tell their comrades what awaited them.
There are a lot of almost-loving stories in this vein, describing the pleasure they got in killing the people who wanted to subjugate them.
I wonder what the American or British bomber pilots that turned Hamburg or Tokyo into smoldering ruins thought about the ordeal, especially retrospect. The fire bombing of Tokyo was especially devastating due to the wast number of buildings of wood and paper. They killed more than 100 000 in one massive bomb raid. To compare with the more famous incidents with the bomb, I believe the immediate number of lives lost from the Hiroshima bomb was about 150 000, and some 100 000 from the Nagasaki bomb.
There was this "bright" idea that "strategic" bombing would and could force an enemy into submission. That never happened of course. Even the target-specific bombing on German industry did not manage to really halt production. In '43 and '44 when the bombing of German industry really got underway they moved underground or relocated critical industry to remote locations. Actually the production numbers, as in how many tanks, planes and rounds of ammunition produced increased a lot in the last years of the war despite of the bombing. They lacked competent manpower to use the equipment though. The production numbers did not really start to drop before Germany itself was invaded.
Basically there are a lot of indicators that the strategic bombing used by all parties simply did not win or loose the war, it was just a mindless slaughter of civilians. Or to use the modern term - "terror". If you're looking for numbers, some 60 000 Brits and 2 million Germans died from bombing alone. Nothing compared of course, to the unbelievable civilian casualties of nations such as Poland (almost 20 % of the total pop.), USSR (~17 million) and the Balkans. Let's hope mankind never again makes civilians the main target of a war...
/Mac
goodtimes
02-06-2010, 02:56
Stylish Haircuts ! indeed the same as on my IIIc Manual.
Mr_Flibble
02-06-2010, 03:39
Olsen, thank you for sharing your father's story. My grandfather fought in the Peel region in the Netherlands in May 1940 and was eventually taken prisoner.
Many POW were released after the surrender to return to their homes. He remained a father and farmer for the rest of the war. Both my parents were born during the occupation.
It wasn't until two years ago that I saw photos of my grandfather in his uniform during the Mobilization.
A friend of mine is currently trying to get hold of a photo album from May 1940 of my home city. Looking forward to seeing them.
My home city did only suffer minor damage from the war, with 95 deaths to mourn. In the winter of 1944 and 1945 the fierce Battle of Capelsche Veer was fought out just too the North West.
I wonder SNIP
There was this "bright" idea that "strategic" bombing would and could force an enemy into submission. That never happened of course. Even the target-specific bombing on German industry did not manage to really halt production. In '43 and '44 when the bombing of German industry really got underway they moved underground or relocated critical industry to remote locations. Actually the production numbers, as in how many tanks, planes and rounds of ammunition produced increased a lot in the last years of the war despite of the bombing. They lacked competent manpower to use the equipment though. The production numbers did not really start to drop before Germany itself was invaded.
SNIP
/Mac
That is wrong, sorry, workers with no housing are less efficient and caring for the injured diverts resources bombing must have an impact on moral, Hermann Goering said he realiser the war was lost when he saw a Mustang escorting US bombers over Berlin, so it worked on him at least.
Churchill put about the story that the bombing in the east-end of London was "stiffening the resolve of the population" it was propaganda, he ordered a million cardboard coffins and thousands of tones of quicklime at the same time, fearing typhoid and the like, moral was collapsing. luckily the Luftwaffe switched to night bombing, which proved much less efficient.
That is wrong, sorry, workers with no housing are less efficient and caring for the injured diverts resources bombing must have an impact on moral, Hermann Goering said he realiser the war was lost when he saw a Mustang escorting US bombers over Berlin, so it worked on him at least.
Churchill put about the story that the bombing in the east-end of London was "stiffening the resolve of the population" it was propaganda, he ordered a million cardboard coffins and thousands of tones of quicklime at the same time, fearing typhoid and the like, moral was collapsing. luckily the Luftwaffe switched to night bombing, which proved much less efficient.
I am not wrong. Production DID increase, it's a well-documented fact referred to in a lot of history books and other WW2 literature. I'm betting the "imported" workforce (forced workers and KZ prisoners) made it easier Germans though... The bombing of Germany did simply not win the war, do you think the allies wanted to invade Europe and Germany itself and suffer the casualties?
What Goering was thinking of was the fact that they had lost the air superiority, which again meant that the ground war was lost. He knew perfectly well that the close relationship and communication between tactical bombing and the ground forces was one of the key reasons the Germans did so well in '39 - '41. They could not possibly beat the numerical superiority of the allies on the battlefield without the advantage of air superiority.
/Mac
I am not wrong. Production DID increase, it's a well-documented fact referred to in a lot of history books and other WW2 literature. I'm betting the "imported" workforce (forced workers and KZ prisoners) made it easier Germans though...
/Mac
This is really a question of viewpoint. THere were huge resources - as many as a million people - diverted to anti aircraft defences, which would otherwise have been sent to the Eastern or Western front. Massive engineering projects were reuiqred, to bury V2 or U-boat prodcution sites deep underground.
In Victor Klemperer's amazing war time diaries (he was a jew in Dresedn) he describes the morning after the allied raid. He was scheduled to report fo the Gestapo HQ that morning, the last of hundres of ejws of his acquaintance, all of whom had by now been gassed. The gestapo HQ was gone; the Zeiss building, where he had up till recently been working, producing sights for tanks, was gone. THousands of civilians had died, in the most horrific fashion; one man was saved.
Some of those thousands had given Klemperer sympathic glances - none of them had stood up to save him. SHould they have died? I don't know of any form of mathematics that can measure one death against another, apply an equation that makes sense of it.
Nathan67
02-06-2010, 07:08
Well I enjoyed looking at this wonderful photographic find. Thanks for posting.
Now to find some Isopan F :)
This is really a question of viewpoint. THere were huge resources - as many as a million people - diverted to anti aircraft defences, which would otherwise have been sent to the Eastern or Western front. Massive engineering projects were reuiqred, to bury V2 or U-boat prodcution sites deep underground.
In Victor Klemperer's amazing war time diaries (he was a jew in Dresedn) he describes the morning after the allied raid. He was scheduled to report fo the Gestapo HQ that morning, the last of hundres of ejws of his acquaintance, all of whom had by now been gassed. The gestapo HQ was gone; the Zeiss building, where he had up till recently been working, producing sights for tanks, was gone. THousands of civilians had died, in the most horrific fashion; one man was saved.
Some of those thousands had given Klemperer sympathic glances - none of them had stood up to save him. SHould they have died? I don't know of any form of mathematics that can measure one death against another, apply an equation that makes sense of it.
Of course, there are always several sides to the statistics. There's little doubt that the bombing was a major "inconvenience" for the industry, and that it diverted resources from the front and elsewhere. You should keep in mind though, to use the AA defenses as an example, that a lot of those manning AA batteries where teenagers and old men, unfit for front duty. That said, the Germans wasted resources on a lot of rubbish, if you think cynical about it. For instance the thousands of men manning (guards) KZ camps and the numerous trains with jews and POWs bogging up the strained railroad network (they had priority even over ammunition trains!). Still does not mean terror bombing with civilians as prime target was a good idea.
/Mac
Nikon Bob
02-06-2010, 09:20
Thanks to the OP for posting the link to the photos, which I enjoyed viewing. I thought the technical qualities of the photos were very good considering when they were made. The content interested me also and I think you could get the same type of photos from the time of the Roman Legions if there had been cameras then. Point being that soldiers, no matter the time period, are solders. The uniforms and equipment may change but the human story is the same. The strategic bombing of cities by the allies during WWII did contribute to ultimate victory but in no way was it the sole reason for victory. This is borne out in the United States Strategic Bombing Survey done at the end of WWII.
Bob
I'd guess that most of the surviving soldiers aren't interested much in sharing their stories. Here is one firsthand acct. from a soldier our family has known for decades:
Was recruited into the youth party, normal German kid from a nice family. From there into the German military as an infantryman. Went on to fight the Russians, killed a lot, got a commendation for staying up late one night and single handedly shooting down a Russian plane.
Ended up in France, his group was hiding out and wanted to surrender, but didn't know exactly how to. They were never taught this part... At the first sight of Americans, they waved white hankies and dropped all their weapons. This soldier had something in his pocket that subjected him to some rogue Jack Bauerism out in the woods - he was simply trying to learn morse code.
He spent a few years in a prison camp in the Eastern US learning all he could. Studied more when he got out. Became an engineer specializing in optics and mech engineering. Interned at a DC glasses shop and even fitted a president for glasses.
Came west to work in the growing aeronautics and optical fields, did a lot of work for NASA, Stanford and Lockheed, worked on the Hubble, wind tunnel, and helped several early tech startups before retiring and moving during an early real estate boom in the valley.
He always hated war and politics, and still does. He could write an interesting biography, but I'm sure never will.
From a historian's or conservator's point of view, I fully agree.
However, I am more interested in the people in these snapshots.
They were young lads like us (or like we were - for some).
When I see pictures like that, I wonder what were the lads like, did they believe the propaganda, and what became of them?
Cheers,
Uwe
Interesting story.
I forgot to mention my wife uncle's story, which is kind of relevant.
He was a Spitfire pilot, was mortified that he was too late for the Battle of Britain, trained in Florida where he obviously had his way with a lot fo the local floozies - there are great photos of him frolicing on the beach with these beautiful women. He was posted to Italy - hardly saw a damn German plane. Then on his main ground-attack, he shot up what he tought was a column... but then later, in flahsback, thought it was a farmer and his cart. Soon afterwards he had a breakdown.
What's fascinating about those photos, beyond the fact they're aesthetically pleasing, is that each of those young men will have had their own varying agendas; if my uncle had been born in Germany it's just as likely he would have been on their side, and would perhaps have had nightmares about killing civilians. Those photos are a literal snapshot of a world we can speculate about, but never truly understand.
...
He always hated war and politics, and still does. He could write an interesting biography, but I'm sure never will.
Thanks for sharing the story!
I can very well understand that he hated war and politics.
Cheers,
Uwe
Of course, there are always several sides to the statistics. There's little doubt that the bombing was a major "inconvenience" for the industry, and that it diverted resources from the front and elsewhere. You should keep in mind though, to use the AA defenses as an example, that a lot of those manning AA batteries where teenagers and old men, unfit for front duty. That said, the Germans wasted resources on a lot of rubbish, if you think cynical about it. For instance the thousands of men manning (guards) KZ camps and the numerous trains with jews and POWs bogging up the strained railroad network (they had priority even over ammunition trains!). Still does not mean terror bombing with civilians as prime target was a good idea.
/Mac
I fully agree with you that the effect of the deliberate bombing of German civilians had little or no effect on war material production. This has been extensively discussed and researched upon after the war. Typically, the British are, doubtful, while the Germans are convinced. Reading Albert Speer's books gives in insight to how the Germans managed to keep up the production while their workers were stowed into the little living space that was left. More important; the bombing made - first the British, and then the Germans, more motivated. Many Brits were quite lukewarm on going to war with Germany in 40'. After The Battle of Britain they were 'united, motivated and furious' (Len Deighton). - The same can be said about the Germans, I am sure.
A little glimse into this discussion is given when reading about the boss of the British Bomber Command, sir Arthur Harris (.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Arthur_Harris,_1st_Baronet ) Many prominant Germans wanted him tried as a war criminal after the war. But, not only does the victorers write the history, they dictate the terms as well...
Mosquitoes were extensively used as 'pathfinders' for Bomber Command. With advanced radio navigation and ground tracking radar (H2S), they flew in first to mark the target with flares. The Germans often managed to mislead the bomber force by lighting up similar flares on other places. My father (flew Mosquitoes for Coastal Command, and not Pathfinder missions) told of an insident were a pathfinder crew had 'marked' the Leuna Werke in Germany, a large petrol production facility. But the bomber force, of unknown reason, bombed the nearby Leipzig instead. - A major mishap with a large number of civilians lost as a result, and a heated argument who's fault it was; the pathfinder or the bomber force. It was never established how this faulty bombing came about.
I read an article in Aftenposten (an Oslo newspaper) a few years ago were bombing of civilians were discussed. Many examples from the history were mentioned, the ones you Olsen mentioned in another post here. This article made the same conclusion: There is little evidence that terror bombings made any difference. Quite on the contrary. Most often, those bombed came out more motivated to fight the opponent.
The riddle about the unknown photographer has been solved. See the article at 'Einestages', the history department of 'Spiegel Online' (http://einestages.spiegel.de/static/topicalbumbackground/6182/das_geheimnis_des_fliegenden_auges.html) (sorry - in German).
To cut a long story short - the pictures actually originate from the German 'Bildberichter' and professional photographer Johann Haehle who worked in a German 'Propagandakompanie' (PK). While most of his photographs are archived in the German Federal Archive, a number of his films apparently initially did not come into any official archive and were 'lost' for several decades. The reason why they were 'lost' is linked with the Babij Jar massacre that took place at the end of September 1941 near Kiew:
Under undisclosed circumstances, Haehle came to the site of the massacre one day after it had occured, and photographed the remains. Apparently, he kept these pictures to himself together with the other pictures mentioned here in this thread. The pictures remained in his private estate which was sold by his widow (Haehle was killed on june 10th, 1944, shortly after D-Day in Normandy) to a journalist, who in 1961 handed over copies of the films to the Public Attourney's office in Frankfurt in an attempt to use them in the proceedings against the German Army members who were involved in the massacre. There, these film copies were 'lost'.
Later, the journalist's widow handed over the originals to the Hamburg 'Institut für Sozialforschung' (Institute for Social Research) which compiled the highly controversial and much-acclaimed 2001 'Wehrmacht' exhibition.
On seeing the Internet campaign to find the author of the aforementioned war pictures, the archivist at the Institut für Sozialforschung recognized these pictures as part of the estate which also included the Babij Jar photographs.
The photographs of the Focke-Wulf airplane have never officially been published. As of today, it is still unclear how the pictures came back to Russia (from where they allegedly were published in the Internet).
Thanks, arjay,
At least the two main known perpetrators of the Babij Jar massacre were indicted. Otto Rasch by the Americans at the Einsatsgruppen Trial, he died in 1948. And Friedric Jeckeln who were indicted by the Russians and executed in Riga in 1946.
But there could well have been many others that participated and that were never tried. After all, between 70.000 and 120.000 were killed at Babi Jar.
interesting.
OT - but may be of interest to history buffs: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/21/books/21hiroshima.html
Very interesting post.
Thank you
JP
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