Check out this debate on P-net about Jorge

[Rick Waldroup]

Please excuse my computer skills- they are almost none. Maybe someone can convert this to a link. This is quite a discussion on photonet. I hope I get this right. www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=OOCkFg

[Rick Waldroup]

Try this www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=OOCkFg

[Rick Waldroup]

Sorry, but for some reason, it will not let me leave all of the address. It is deleting after the and a- it should read fetch-msg. This might be some type of editing tool to keep foul language off the forum?

[Rick Waldroup]

Seeing as how I cannot get the link to work, the question is listed in the photonet site feedback forum and also under the unified forum. If you scroll down a little you will find it. I think everyone will find it very interesting as it raises many questions.

[Pherdinand]

For me the link works,the full link is there in the background just not displayed here in the message box. However PN says the thread was deleted.
What was it about?

[Rick Waldroup]

As far as I can tell, the link is still there. I found it on the unified page. One of the members of this forum took issue with the way Jorge worded his classified ad on photo.net for selling his Leica equipment. Jorge states in the ad that he does not accept paypal and also (in caps) that he will not ship to Asia. This guy thought it was racist. I did not agree at all. Anyway it sparked this huge and very heated debate. It is well worth reading if you can find it. That link I posted must be bad.

[Terence T]

Wonder if this works.

http://www.photo.net/gc/view-one?classified_ad_id=617620

Alex is a RFF member too.

Jorge did word it a bit harshly imo, but I got not problem with it even though I'm Asian and from Asia.

[Socke]

What's the title of the thread?

[GeneW]

RDW, it would have easier to locate the thread if you'd quoted the title, which is "Racism in the Classifieds: "NO BIDDERS from Asia!!!!""

It looks like the usual pnet dustup. Half the regulars there seem to be wired with hair triggers, and their motto appears to be "Ready, Fire, Aim"

Gene

[Pherdinand]

Darn, I have found it and have read the first 2-3 comments but then I refreshed the page and the whole thread is gone! I have seeon on the utterly small size of the scroll bar that many people took the time to answer.

IMO, it'sn not racism. It's restriction based on bad experience with inhabitants of a certain region of the world.
On an institutional level, these things are called Visa, Work permit, European Citizenship, Shengen treaty, and so on. If you are lucky enough to be from a "bad region" like eastern europe, africa, FSU, India etc you meet these restrictions every day.

[Rick Waldroup]

Thanks Gene, I should have thought of that. I just checked back on the thread and it appears that it has now been deleted. It was a really weird thread. Alex Shishan (I think I am spelling the last name right, if not, I apologize to Alex), took offense to the ad Jorge had posted about his Leica equipment. Alex thought it was racist in the fact that Jorge simply said that he would not ship to Asia and did not explain why. I thought also that Jorge could have worded it a little different but I also thought Alex had blown this thing way out of proportion. Anyway, it appears now that it has been deleted.

[Socke]

Yes, it's just the typical thin skinned PNet dustup.

There is only one way not get flamed on PNet, don't post there!

[Peter]

It would be helpful to clarify why he would not accept bidders from Asia. For example custom issues, shipping cost etc. Just by that statement alone is enough to set off more sensitive souls.

[Rick Waldroup]

Peter, that is exactly what happened. Jorge may have had a bad experience selling to some parts of Asia. I bet when he typed up the ad, it never occured to him that someone may interpret it this way. The one question that everyone kept asking Alex was if he had contacted Jorge about it. From what I could tell, he never did. This is not meant to bash Alex in any way. I like his photography and I am sure he is a very nice person. I just think that Jorge meant no harm at all. It is just an unfortunate set of circumstances.

[Peter]

Unfortunate indeed!

[felipe]

I am stunned by his Alexs persistence in trying to "mark" Jorge with being racist yet completely ignoring everyone elses points.
Given he didn't even bother to email Jorge privately first, his remarks are quite agressive, biased and unbalanced and since he already had his (very strong) opinion in the first place, why did he open up the thread?

I certainly agree that changing the wording a bit would've probably avoided any those reactions, I know I don't spend 10 minutes rereading an ad I place. Jorge is a busy man and definetly not a racist.

I got my nose broken and my cheekbone fractured by racists, I nearly left school because of racists and I can't visit the town with my old school anymore because of those people. I spent time in court against the same people and I even spent nights awake until they finally granted a restraining order against them. So actually I don't quite get it when someone starts nitpicking about remarks like this.

What a waste of time, Alex is such a good photographer :(

Phil

P.S.: attached the orignial thread in a ZIP for those who didn't get there in time

[Gabriel M.A.]

I think Alex is guilty of the same thing he was accusing Jorge (only thing Jorge was guilty of was being burned in the past and not wording properly); Alex's painting everything he says about one continent with one stroke, one sentence with one stroke. The saying goes, when you point your finger at someone, the other four are pointing back...

[Socke]

A lot of PNet regulars are easyly offended and react with name calling.

I've been called everything from left wing (don't like wars anywhere) to nazi (born in germany and don't like wars anywhere) and I'm antismite too (couldn't see the conection between a pile of running shoes from the NY marathon to Auschwitz and didn't fight Hitler in the year my father was born).

I don't know if those name callers behave different if met in real live, but I'm pretty sure most of them don't get out of their home much and won't visit the places I do.

The infamous Cuba thread realy made me mad, posting pictures and telling about the live in Cuba made me a comunist for some :-)

[Pherdinand]

People just need a place to get rid of their frustrations, problems in their private life and their boredom. Internet forums are handy in this - nobody to face, nobody to make you responsible for what you say. Sad, but we are not perfect.

Thanks Philip for the zipped thread.
Really, for Alex Shishin I had a great respect, he is a good photographer and his writings before were really good. But apparently he has his weak points as well.

[ray_g]

I agree with Brian (the PNet moderator) - accusations of racism and complaints about ads should be addressed to the moderators, and generally kept between the parties involved, rather than launching a public witch hunt on the forums.

Alex and Jorge are on RFF as well, and I personally, would leave them to settle this between themselves.

[Nikon Bob]

I am a born cynic and reading Jorge's ad never set me off as I automatically thought the bidding restriction was in relation to a bad shipping/selling/customs experience with that part of the world. Nothing racist about it. Some people will not ship to Canada, so what no big deal. To some just living in a country that has a national health care system makes you a communist. Funny really since surviving communist countries seem to be embracing capitalism. It is easy to be too defensive.

Bob

[Rockford]

I love this forum. I do enjoy the comments from people who live in different cultures than my own. Thanks to Jorge for hosting us all. I also enjoy the photo.net Pre-Seventies Classic Forum, the only forum there on which I have personally looked in with any regularity. Good folks there, too. Still, I find myself wishing that we here could have one forum for "non rangefinder" questions, where we could come to people we consider informed to ask help. I suppose this is a theme. I hope it is a tribute to all the people who post here. Greeting from North Carolina to all.

[popitz]

The screaming restriction in the ad is a bit offensive for someone from Asia who's willing to buy the camera. Good thing I don't have the money to buy a Leica and really want Jorge's camera. :) Proper wording or an explanation could have made it better and could have avoided the response it got. On the other hand, the responses were also reactionary, hence, the ensuing debate. Well, Asia is really big so I guess a response like that is not surprising. Try putting NO BIDDERS from EUROPE! or NO BIDDERS from AMERICA! in your ad and I guarantee you you'll get the same response or worse.

My 2 cents, or in this case, 2 yen.

[laptoprob]

I could add a comment:

http://www.photo.net/gc/view-one?cl...ed_ad_id=617620

Thanks Terence for the link!

[mtokue]

I just wonder why Jorg, Hasn't posted them here?..
Ooops I'm in Japan....
So my $s wouldn't be acceptable anyway....
Very Dissapointed.
Mike.

[Pherdinand]

Mike - He did.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8197

[RML]

I can't find the thread either. Anyway who can?

[Socke]

Actualy, if I were in an asian country I'd just contact Jorge and ask if we could arange something, where is the problem?

And yes, the regulars here seem to be more forgiving than some on PNet, at least I don't have to think twice about every word I use and the context in which it may be read :-)

[laptoprob]

This link worked for me. And includes my comment.

http://www.photo.net/gc/view-one?classified_ad_id=617620

[Pherdinand]

Rob, 2 m, really? LOL, I have two colleagues who are almost 2 m, it was quite scary in the first days of mine here in NL.

[RML]

I must say I had not expected anything like this from Alex. I always like his photos and had a positive picture of him in my head. That picture is now shattered. Really too bad. I'll be viewing his photos with different eyes now.

[back alley]

interestingly, no one on photo.net said a word about those who refuse to ship to canada.


just a thought...

joe

[taffer]

Amazing. If I had to do that each time an ebay seller claims NO OVERSEAS BIDDERS !!! then I'd need a ful time job just to complain :D

Everybody can have his/her reasons, but in this case IMHO A.S. is wrong both in forms and content, and as somebody said there, he should consider why he took it that way and why he decided to solve it that way.

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Face it. Pnet has a bunch of "Crack Babies."

Someone wanted the equipment and they wanted to whine about their inability to acquire it. If I had that equipment to sell, I would be concerned about an overseas sale and Paypal. He was ripped off once. He isn't in a position to get ripped off again.

My 2 cents.

[ent2b]

I definitely think Alex majorly overreacted. heck, in my one and only sell ad here few weeks ago, i clearly stated US buyers only. To think that means i am racist against everyone is the biggest bunch of BS this side of the Mason-Dixon line. I think pure and simple, it is up to the seller to whomever he or she chooses to sell in the first place. I mean, he clearly stated that No bidders from Asia followed by no Paypal and gave an explanation for the Ppal. you would think simple logic and common sense (connecting the dots if you will) would show that "hey, this guy got burnt before and doesn't feel like dealing with that hassle."

Alex - if you are reading this thread, i think you owe Jorge a MAJOR apology. Nex time, think a little before typing. :mad: :rolleyes:

I'm Asian and from Asia and I didn't find it the least bit offensive. And, while it is a shame, i will react differently to posts from this user henceforth.

actually the more i think about it:

You know something Jorge--you're a bloodly little racist.

I think in principle, if Alex thinks Jorge is a racist, perhaps Alex would be best off NOT being a member of Jorge's racist RFF forum.

[TPPhotog]

... and their motto appears to be "Ready, Fire, Aim" ... That's the best description of P.Net I've every read :D

[Taipei-metro]

Wouldn't it be easy if you really want the Leica from Jorge? For the money you saved, flew yourself to Los Angeles, check in Radisson(I stayed in the one right accross USC last time), arrange a local pick up, and pay him cash. Just try not to do street photography in down town L.A. with your" like new" MP, you may get mugged, Asian or not.
When I was in L.A. an American kid inside a passing car pushed his eyes upward with his fingers to show slit asian eyes to me, I swear he is saying " NO BIDDERS FROM ASIA!!!!".