Film loading problems (mangled sprockets!)

[alansoon]

Ok, so I've home brewed about 5 rolls now. So far so good in terms of the negs themselves. However, it's still hit-or-miss with the loading.

Last night, after an hour fumbling in the dark, I still couldn't load a roll on a plastic reel. The end result was that the sprockets were so mangled that they kept jamming.

I'd say my hit rate with loading is about 80% -- sometimes I get it right on the first go. Other times the sprockets get bent out of shape, but I still manage to feed it in fine in the end.

So, is there a fail safe way of loading? What causes it to jam? Should I be unwinding the entire roll out of the cannister first before trying to load it? Could the weight of the cannister at the end be affecting the feed? Would it be easier with a metal tank since it has no feed mechanism?

[TPPhotog]

Possibly your either not drying the spirals fully or they are getting gunged up. To dry them give them a good shake and then make sure everything including the ball bearings are dry. If they are gunged up then give them a soak in a washing powder solution for a couple of hours before drying ;)

Remember to twist the spirals fully when loading in a nice smooth action. If they feel jammed give then a firm tap at the side and then try to continue loading. Don't force them as it's better to unwind the film and start again.

[tetrisattack]

My only experience is with stainless steel equipment, but sometimes when a roll is being a jerk I unwind it and start over from the opposite end.

The above is great advice though. Wet reels are bad no matter what, and residue from wetting agent is also unhelpful.

I doubt metal reels are any easier to load than plastic. It doesn't take long to learn how to load them smoothly, but it's frustrating until you do. :)

[T_om]

I doubt metal reels are any easier to load than plastic.


Oh man... I was with you almost all the way but I strongly disagree here. :eek:

Metal is SO much easier once you get the hang of it that it is not even funny.

In a darkroom with a table top handy, I can spool a metal reel with a 36 exposure roll in about 15 seconds once the film end is clipped into the reel center. I've demonstrated the technique ("push the wheelbarrow" method) hundreds of times to people new to developing and they usually pick it up pretty quickly.

In a changing bag, it is a bit slower, but it is ALWAYS faster than plastic. And sometimes, plastic is impossible at all (wet reels). If you are in a darkroom and forced to use plastic, and you suspect problems with a wet reel, take the whole works to a sink. Submerge film, reel and all and it will usually go onto the reel OK when they are all under water.

Tom

[XAos]

I've been considering stainless. Can you load em wet? I need a few more reels, I've considered getting a 4 reel tank now that I'm using diafine, but I stopped to debate the stainless vs plastic thing again. With plastic reels I found I was getting wavy lines down the center if I ratcheted the whole thing in - once I get it started I just push it in. if it gets hung (usually because they were still wet) I may ratchet it once or twice to clear it but then resume pushing.

[tetrisattack]

Oh man... I was with you almost all the way but I strongly disagree here. :eek:


To be honest, I've never tried a plastic reel, so I wasn't gonna put forth that one was easier than the other. :angel:

Some people have a tough time with steel reels though, my girlfriend was badly disappointed a few weeks ago when the film jumped the track and obliterated six of the roll's most promising pictures. I've sat with her in total darkness for 20 minutes listening to her wind, check, unwind and re-wind, double check...

[James Burton]

Sacrifice a cheap roll of supermarket film for practice. Run it though whilst watching
until you get it right every time. Run it through in the changing bag (or darkroom)until you get it right every time. Make sure you rinse your reels thoroughly after use. Then dry thoroughly. I leave them in the sun for at least 1 hour or if no sun then I hair-drier them for a few minutes, leave them an hour or so then dry them again. The slightest amount of moisture will cause the film to stick. Make sure your leader is cut straight across (at 90degrees) and make sure it is cut in-between the sprocket holes. I man-handle the leader through the tabs and pull it past the ball-bearings. From that point on it should feed smoothly until the end of the roll. If not, either the balls are worn (replace the reels), there is moisture on the film (are your hands sweaty?) or you have gunk in there. Clean the reels with plain water - the soap recommended above will be a problem.

Keep in mind that after you practice you should be able to do a complete load without touching the film at all (except for the leader of course). You might need to re-practice if you havn't loaded for a few weeks so keep your practice film handy.

The worn bearings is very unlikely - never happened to me but I read it somewhere on photo.net I think. Might be an issue with 2nd-hand reels.

Some people cut the corners off the leader a little bit. I havn't found that improves things much. It might be worth a shot.

If you get stuck (in the dark) don't panic. Pull the film out and start again. You will probably get some finger marks on the emulsion if you do that but it's better than giving up on the roll :-)


I have no reliability problems with 35mm winding at all.

Good luck and keep on asking here until it works for you. I always try to remember
with machines & stuff that I am the human so I am the boss and it WILL do what I want :-) It's very easy to get frustrated and we all reach the point of giving up at some time.

[James Burton]

Oh one more thing about getting stuck in the dark. You can put the tank together without the reels in, as long as you have the centre column in place (I'm thinking paterson tanks here) and it will be light tight. If you want to have a rest, try again later, re-dry the reels or whatever, put the opened film as-is in the tank, assemble the tank and turn the light on.

[Ralf]

Assuming you are using plastic reels, they must be 100% dry. DRY DRY. I've had the same problem. I also find them a bit "sticky" in colder weather especially if it's wet ouotside. I assume it's the humidity. The best solution I've come up with is to heat the reel(s) with a hair dryer. Not hot, just warm. The film seems to slide easier on the plastic. They'll stay warm for 5 minutes or so.

I also use the hair dryer to fill up the the changebag with warm air. This does two things, warming the film and reel, and also ballooning the sides of the changbag to give you more room inside. Stays up for about 2 minutes.

[alansoon]

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll give it a try.

According to the B&W processing forum on Photo.net, the problem could be related to the fact that some of my rangefinders have a "reverse" takeup spool (like the Leica screw mounts), which causes the negative to bend in the opposite direction.

[taffer]

As somebody who has experienced those problems as well, let me tell you that you've already received probably the best advices you could get :)

In my experience, problems with loading have always come from one of these reasons:

- Not fully clean reels, it's hard to notice at first but after some rolls you may get some spots of chemical residue on the film path. Be sure they are as clean as possible, it has a lot more effect than one could think.

- Not properly cut and/or strange bent on the film leader. I've noticed that some of my cameras put too much tension on the film leader and it becomes harder to load, usually going off the film path on the first turn of the reel. By cutting a bit more film, usually things turn fine.

- Emulsion type. Sadly, seems some emulsions have more tendency to present loading problems. In my experience, Tri-X has been a lot more forgiving than Neopan 400.

- PATIENCE. Probably the most important. Once you start sweating, it's best to open the reel, put the film in the tank, safe from light, and take a break which can be also useful to check the reel for any dirt or moisture.

Btw, I don't recommend you to completely unwind the roll from the canister, try to do it progressively, unwind enough to have 5-6 turns of the reel and then unwind again. I've also seen that being gentle with the whole process helps a lot, and also it helps me sometimes to gently 'pull open' the reels (as if you wanted to separate them) while turning.

Don't give up ! :)

[wclavey]

A bunch of *VERY* good advice, above... I thought I would add 1 more thing: When my son started using Paterson reels and tank, I went out to Freestyle and bought 2 extra reels. Now, when he is finished a tank of film, he rinses the reels, dries them, and hangs them on a pegboard to dry (we like to leave them for a day in a dehimidified room...). In the mean time, he uses the other set of reels while those dry. It is a slightly more costly solution, but we have had very few problems. In fact, only with Tech Pan on a really humid day, but with Tech Pan gone, that's not going to be a problem again...

[Nick R.]

I've never ever had a problem with my plastic AP reel from Adorama, not once. However, I do clean my stuff till it's spotless and I never use a plastic reel that isn't bone dry. Otherwise, if my plastic is wet, I use SS reels and I always use stainless for 120. Reels are cheap. If you're having trouble with one brand or a particular reel, toss it. It's not worth the lost shots. If you can't wait for your plastic reels to dry, switch to SS. It's as easy as Tom says.

[XAos]

Can I use stainless reels with my plastic tanks, or are tanks and reels married to their particular system? (Ie, patterson reels with patterson tanks, etc..) My tank / reels are adorama house brand, which someone told me was a patterson. I want at least a few extra reels, and considered getting a 4 reel tank.

[T_om]

I've been considering stainless. Can you load em wet?

Yes. Wet makes no difference to loading on metal reels. Neither do they have to be spotlessly clean... but I always keep my stuff clean anyway.



Can I use stainless reels with my plastic tanks...

This gets a qualified "maybe". In all likelihood, you can use stainless reels in a plastic tank, but it depends on the tank.

Reel size should be fine as stainless reels are usually smaller than plastic. The problem is, some plastic tank systems use the center 'pouring' stem as part of the light baffle system. If that is the case then the metal reels would not work.

Stainless tanks and reels are VERY cheap on eBay. My recommendation is to never buy a tank with a capacity smaller than 4 (35mm) reels. There is just no good reason to buy the smaller tanks.

Some quality names to look for include Nikkor-Honeywell, Kindermann and Hewes.

Tom

[XAos]

Never... if you're using diafine. I'd still consider getting a single reel tank for the occasion I wish to use a one shot developer - especially now that I'm not keeping 110 on hand in working strength.

Unfortunately my tank is the center column light baffle thing. If the stainless tanks don't use this system, are they suited to changing bags? what keeps the light out while pouring chemicals? I just ditched my stainless funnel for plastic because it was leaving rust rings where it'd been hung up to dry.

[titrisol]

Good advise from everyone, looks like either a moist reel or a dirty one.
Also check that the balls from the take-up mechanism are there.

- Are you cutting the corners of the film round? if you are not that may help
- Are you loading the beginiing of the film in full light? that may also help

IMHO the best way to clean a dirty spiral is using baking soda and an old toothbrish. Make a paste with baking soda and a little water, use that to scrub the reels with your mather-in-law toothbrush. Rinse thoroughly, shake and dry.

[Nick R.]

Ideally, SS reels are dunked into a loaded tank in a darkroom. The tops are light tight but rather slow to pour through. However, with diafine the pouring time isn't critical so I load in a changing bag and pour the developer through the top.

[oftheherd]

Funny, I never liked using my Patterson tanks and reels just because I did have more problems than with SS. Unless of course, if the SS get bent. Working in Craft Shop labs while in the US Army, they got used a lot, which meant they got dropped more often. I intend to start developing my own b/w again soon. I will probably use the SS more than the plastic. Somehow, it was just easier for me.

That was not the case with everyone. Others I knew, found plastic easier for them. I guess that is why there are both. Good luck with yours. Patience and persistance will pay off.

[T_om]

I'd still consider getting a single reel tank for the occasion I wish to use a one shot developer...


Why? :confused:

A 4 reel stainless tank takes no more developer to do a single reel than a single reel tank. You don't have to fill the thing up each time, just use enough solution to cover the reel.... just as you would have to do in a one reel tank.

Tom

[kiev4a]

There are good SS reels and bad ones. Back in the 70s there were a lot of cheap reels floating around that looked OK but had almost undetectable burrs on the spirals--almost impossible to load because the edge of the film would catch on the burrs and wrinkle. Get some Nikors or Kindermans. A good stainless reel can be loaded wet or dry and once you learn the technique they are vastly superior to plastic. It's like learing to load a bottom-loading camera. Takes some practice but once you catch on you never forget.

[titrisol]

PS. Just saw new kindermann SS spirals in clearance at the local Ritz photo for $5 each.

Sounds like a bargain to me.

[Doug]

I've been happy with Kindermann tanks and reels for decades. Just bought a couple of "new" tanks too, that surprised me by being larger in diameter than I'd seen before. And with larger-diameter reels too, evidently for 220 film, to give them more space between wraps of the film and more liquid volume to handle the film surface area. Now I have two of the larger tanks, one for one reel and one for two reels, and looking forward to running some 220 Tri-X in Diafine!

I did already have a 220 reel for the smaller diameter tanks, which used smaller gage wire and packed the 220 into the same diameter as a 36-exp roll of 35. I used it in a 32-oz tank with a couple of empty reels so it would have adequate developer. I expect the new big tanks to be better for 220.

I like the reels that have either a spring clip or toothed clip at the core, but it's important to have the film centered on the clip! Otherwise, there's grief in spooling on the film... I agree with others that it takes a bit of practice to get a feel for it. And also agree with the so-called "wheelbarrow" method, assuming by the description it's the same thing I do, in pushing the film lengthwise to keep it looser in the spiral rather than snugged tight. This helps prevent getting off-track but also means less length of film that won't fit into the spiral! Otherwise there's usually a few inches of a roll of 36 that's free to flap loose outside the reel and possibly be damaged.

[kiev4a]

I have a couple of 220 reels I haven't tried yet but I assume they also could be used for 120. The SS reels really shine for 120 as the film is wide enough that it can easily buckle while racheting it onto a plastic reel. The trick you getting the film to go on smoothly on ss reels is to hold it with the thumb against one edge and the index finger against the other edge and bow it ever so slightly while feeding it onto the reel.

In a pinch you can even develop two rolls of 35mm on one reel, loading them with the emulson sides out on both

[titrisol]

It si doable in patterson reels as well... just have to be careful ;)


In a pinch you can even develop two rolls of 35mm on one reel, loading them with the emulson sides out on both

[XAos]

Just bought some stainless reels because of you guys. You better be right on this one. BTW - does anyone know where to find 16mm reels in either stainless or plastic?

[Doug]

Kindermann has made 16mm film reels, as I've got one I used for 110 film. But there's probably not much demand for them now. Maybe contact Kindermann directrly or B&H and see if it can be ordered, or look for one on eBay...

[XAos]

Old thread, but the desire to dunk two rolls of 120 at once drove me to try it again. Maybe they'd load better if I didn't hurl them against the wall in frustration. :) Actually they loaded ok this time, minding the pre-curve loading. But MAN is the pour time slow. I fear I may be agitating too early it takes 30+ seconds to pour in a liter of soln B.

[Doug]

Glad it worked ok for you! If you're speaking of Diafine solution B, don't worry too much about the time to pour in or out, or for that matter the time in between! As long as it's at least 3 min (I leave 'em for 5) and don't agitate very much, you'll be fine! :)

One trick for multiple-reel tanks is to use two of these tanks and a lifter rod so that (in total darkness) you lift the reels out of the first tank and sink them in the second one. Only thing slowing me here is being careful to know where the tanks are in the dark and not knock them over, and (when dunk time IS critical) balancing draining time for the reels against carrying over more of the first tank's contents to the second. I have done this with C41 processing where develop time is only 3.25 minutes, so precision and consistency are that much more important.

[Stephanie Brim]

I agitate once every minute with my Diafine and it seems to be okay. Agitate for me = one inversion of the tank. I've also developed for anywhere from 2.5-5 minutes with it with good results. :)