View Full Version : How to get grain?
I was wondering how you can control the amount of grain you get in an image?
What are the variables? as I understand the ISO value of the film and the type of developer you use?
I'm new to shooting film, until now I only shot rolls of kodak bw400cn film.
Personally I have my films developed / printed in a shop so I wonder what kind of film that is easily available will get me images with more grain.
thanks,
Staf
High ISO black and white films will have more grain than lower ISO films. The choice of developer makes a big difference too. For example, film developed in Rodinal will be much grainier than film developed in XTOL.
charjohncarter
10-23-2009, 07:10
Dfoo is right, I also feel that there is slightly more grain on an overexposed negative.
Roger Hicks
10-23-2009, 07:15
Dear Staf,
Faster film, more generous exposure, overdevelopment, speed-increasing developer (or just not-very-fine-grain developer, e.g. Rodinal, or for extremes, dilute paper dev.)
Ask your shop if they can process Ilford Delta 3200 or Kodak TMZ and if so, what speed they recommend. Then bracket to see if you like the tonality with more or less exposure. Neopan 1600 is pretty grainy too.
Cheers,
R.
BW400CN, a B&W version of color negative film with the same C-41 processing is virtually grain less. The Ilford counterpart, XP2 Super, has slightly more, as in noticeable but not objectionable-kinda nice actually, grain.
I must be doing something wrong. I see folks posting 135 Plus-X with grain and Tmax or Delta 3200 with gravel sized grain. I can't get grain from those films and TMY-2 in Xtol 1:3.
No worries. Lightroom 3 Beta offers grain. Just slide a slider. YUCK!
Rodinal and agitation = GRAIN.
Do you scan your negatives? If so, you could always add grain via Photoshop.
Tri-X, pushed. To answer your question.
Controlling to increase grain? what a novel concept. Anyway, choice of developer and time have an effect on grain.
My understanding is that Rodinal produces a fair amount of grain, but I have never used it. Don't use microdol if you want to have grain. It was designed to reduce grain (with some trade-offs).
Now, as you don't develop your own B&W, and you are shooting C-41 processed B&W, I believe that the only choices are tabular grain films, which were originally designed to reduces the appearance of grain.
From the Kodak site: BW400CN is the "World’s finest-grained chromogenic film"
Oddly I can't seem to get to the Fuji page for 400CN, but it is a neopan C-41 film. I believe it is fine grain
Ilford XP2 Super is also a fine grain C-41 film. This one can be printed on a B&W paper, since it has no backing color, or the color is the color of a safelight or something.
I once shot some Ilford delta 3200, developed in rodinal and by some massive brain fart forgot to do a water rinse at the end of my developing... went straight from fix to photo-flo and dried. Wow... that was some intense grain.
David William White
10-23-2009, 08:32
And if all else fails, enlarge!
Juan Valdenebro
10-23-2009, 09:25
Use a developer that respects the original grain, so avoid the "fine grain developers". If you have RodinaI you could try it, but I've heard it's not very tonal friendly with D3200, and I guess in those years I used only ID-11. Maybe at 22 o 24ºC for that case!
Even though it's not a classic but t grain film, Delta3200 was the biggest grain I got in experiments from many years ago: use just the center of the frame...
You won't need more than that, even for intense visual effect.
Cheers,
Juan
...
you could always add grain via Photoshop.
Not in my lifetime with my negatives. I've worked long and hard to get to the place where grain is unobtrusive in my negatives. It's like garlic used correctly. I am aware of it's presence but I can't taste it.
I installed Lightroom 3 Beta last night. I found the Grain sliders. About 30 seconds convinced me that I won't be going back to section of the software.
...
Oddly I can't seem to get to the Fuji page for 400CN, but it is a neopan C-41 film. I believe it is fine grain
Ilford XP2 Super is also a fine grain C-41 film. This one can be printed on a B&W paper, since it has no backing color, or the color is the color of a safelight or something.
Internet myth/legend says that Ilford XP2 Super and Fuji 400CN are one and the same. 400CN is for non-USA consumption only. XP2 Super shows more grain than BW400CN. which is good. You can have the look of TMAX 100 with the Kodak film and the look of Tri-X with the Ilford film. At the same time even.
le vrai rdu
10-23-2009, 09:36
I was wondering how you can control the amount of grain you get in an image?
What are the variables? as I understand the ISO value of the film and the type of developer you use?
I'm new to shooting film, until now I only shot rolls of kodak bw400cn film.
Personally I have my films developed / printed in a shop so I wonder what kind of film that is easily available will get me images with more grain.
thanks,
Staf
classic 400 iso film (trix HP5 ) not T grain film like neopan or Tmax
rodinal for exemple, low dilution (1+25)
you can also use an hight dev temperature like 24°C
Use a developer that respects the original grain, so avoid the "fine grain developers". If you have RodinaI you could try it, but I've heard it's not very tonal friendly with D3200, and I guess in those years I used only ID-11. Maybe at 22 o 24ºC for that case!
Even though it's not a classic but t grain film, Delta3200 was the biggest grain I got in experiments from many years ago: use just the center of the frame...
You won't need more than that, even for intense visual effect.
Cheers,
Juan
Have you tried TMax P3200, pushed to 6400? Holy cow, that is more grain than not. (In TMax Dev, too).
I believe that all three major high speed B&W films are already pushed. I might be wrong about the speed, but I have read that Delta 3200 and TMax P3200 might be 1000-1600 and Neopan 1600 is supposedly 800-1000. I don't even know how they rate these, so I am just relaying internet rumor.
Juan Valdenebro
10-23-2009, 09:54
Also, check a wild Rodinal dillution, maybe 1:20 with cocktail barman agitation...
That might rule!
Also, check a wild Rodinal dillution, maybe 1:20 with cocktail barman agitation...
That might rule!
You will certainly have contrast issues, as I understand things.
Juan Valdenebro
10-23-2009, 10:04
Depending on the subject and intention, of course...
But with soft light and a low contrast subject, after the joke, it could truly work. Of course with a previous test roll for trying a couple of development times for two identical bracketings of the scene...
Cheers,
Juan
Chris101
10-23-2009, 10:33
Generally the longer you keep the film in the developer, the more grain it will have. So underexpose by a stop or two and develop for twice as long. As you have read, different developers yeild different grain structure. I usually use HC110 and do go for a grainy appearance. I give it about a third stop less exposure (EI 500) and develop for six and a half minutes at 68F.
traditional film and rodinal 1+25 will give big grain. Delta 3200 with Rodinal gives very crisp big grain. Overexposure/development gives larger grain but this forces printing at lower contrast which masks grain. Develop to moderately low contrast and then hike the contrast in printing for large crisp visible grain.
Juan Valdenebro
10-23-2009, 12:58
traditional film and rodinal 1+25 will give big grain. Delta 3200 with Rodinal gives very crisp big grain. Overexposure/development gives larger grain but this forces printing at lower contrast which masks grain. Develop to moderately low contrast and then hike the contrast in printing for large crisp visible grain.
Good point!
That's what I've been taught. Overexpose and underdevelope to increase grain.
When you overexpose, grain increases. If you underdevelope (and get lower contrast
negatives) you're forced to increase contrast in printing, which also enhances grain.
Pau
Juan Valdenebro
10-23-2009, 13:16
I guess that was my case with D3200, now that I remember well... It is a low contrast film, and I finally had to print it with filter 4 or 4 1/2...
I haven't used that film in 7 years... Maybe a 120 test in Rodinal wouldn't be a bad idea for next month...
Hope if you get nice big grain we can see it here soon!
Cheers,
Juan
Al Kaplan
10-23-2009, 13:30
Message to Kodak: Bring back Royal-X Pan Recording Film! Huge grain in Acufine at 3200. They haven't made that film in over forty years.
That's what I've been taught. Overexpose and underdevelope to increase grain.
When you overexpose, grain increases. If you underdevelope (and get lower contrast
negatives) you're forced to increase contrast in printing, which also enhances grain.
Pau
Overexposure and underdevelopment actually reduces grain; however, if you are forced to print at very high contrast to get the range you need in the print it makes the existing grain much more visible. Grain is largely a function of development rather than exposure.
Try it in the darkroom - take a neg that is flat in contrast and hike to max contrast and the take a contrasty dense neg and print with soft filters. Bet you find the flat neg with high contrast filters seems to show more grain!
If you want giant grain, try experimenting with print developers for film. I hear Dektol produces golf ball grain.
If you want grain, find some old Kodak Recording Film. :D
Thanks for your replies.
I understand you usually want to reduce grain as much as possible to get sharper images, it's not my intention to get super-grainy images all the time, but I try to understand how you to get a certain look / atmosphere in your pictures.
I learned a lot from this. I'll do some experiments with different film, overexposure/underdevelopement.
Roger Hicks
10-26-2009, 01:44
Thanks for your replies.
I understand you usually want to reduce grain as much as possible to get sharper images, it's not my intention to get super-grainy images all the time, but I try to understand how you to get a certain look / atmosphere in your pictures.
I learned a lot from this. I'll do some experiments with different film, overexposure/underdevelopement.
No - overdevelopment!
Cheers,
R.
From my experience, the biggest/most attractive grain that I achieved was with:
A) Kodak TMZ 3200 developed in Rodinal at 1:50 and exposed at 650. I agitated once a minute for 5 seconds for a total time of 12 minutes. The look was exactly like salt and pepper - not everyones cup of tea, but some may find it desirable. Oddly enough the highlights remained in check, perhaps because I reduced agitation to once a minute.
Best,
Jaans
Gabriel M.A.
10-26-2009, 05:18
How to get grain? Put the film in the freezer for a few days. Take it out, and leave it out for a few days. Put it back in the freezer. ... rinse and repeat until you think you've crossed the OCD line.
Now you have lots of grain. Accentuated by developing in Rodinal, 1+1. Even more if you use hot developing chemicals and do a wash in cold water.
I'm not kidding.
How to get grain? Put the film in the freezer for a few days. Take it out, and leave it out for a few days. Put it back in the freezer. ... rinse and repeat until you think you've crossed the OCD line.
Now you have lots of grain. Accentuated by developing in Rodinal, 1+1. Even more if you use hot developing chemicals and do a wash in cold water.
I'm not kidding.
Not even about the 1+1? I can't imagine using anywhere near that amount of Rodinal in one place.
Old receipe developer like Rodinal gives nice big grain if you like it. I do. Old film like Tri X contributes to that. I doubt the modern 400cn you are using will give you the old school look.
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