View Full Version : Jumping to Zeiss Ikon Advice please!
Hi I'm a RF newbie but I love the process and how close one can get to the subject not to forget the compactness!I have been using the Minolta 7sii. I have been contemplating on a new camera which are nikon d700 , sony 850, or Zeiss Ikon. The M9 is out of my league.
I pretty muching going to move to the zeiss system and liquidate my sony set up. I expect the Zeiss to have its digital version in 3 yrs time when FF tech is mature and cheaper!
I just need more persuading and info.
I like to know what is the key difference in the minolta 7 and ikon in terms of the following.
focus patch, effective baseline, ring focus
(minolta's a little difficult to focus fast), size and so on.
and focusing with the 85 f2 ZM
I have no demo to try out =(
elshaneo
10-21-2009, 18:30
I've never used the Zeiss Ikon yet but I would recommend you to read this review:
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/zeiss-.html
The Ikon is great, but the D700 is soooo good. Get it.
I've just recently (three months ago) returned to film, but in three months I have purchased two Ikon kits, one with the 35mm f/2.0 and the other with 21mm f/4.5 and finder. I added a few other lenses and a couple of scanners and now the purchase of an M9 looks cheap. I really like the Ikon and am loving film, especially B&W. Can't tell you what to do, but an Ikon is a good start.
jonmanjiro
10-21-2009, 19:09
Film - Zeiss Ikon
Digital - D700
I have been contemplating on a new camera which are nikon d700 , sony 850, or Zeiss Ikon. The M9 is out of my league.
I think you need to go back to square one to decide what kind of photography you want to do. You are comparing a film RF v. high-MP DSLR and "king of low light" DSLR. Very different tools for very different purposes.
I use my ZI for times when I want to shoot B&W film and don't want to carry a bulky DSLR. OTOH, when shooting sports or macros or just feel like shooting digital, I grab the D700. I highly recommend both for their intended purpose.
I've only read reviews of the A850, but anecdotally, it's probably not what you want if you shoot a lot of low light work.
Cheers!
Pickett Wilson
10-21-2009, 19:33
I wouldn't hold my breath for a digital Ikon. Get the D700. Sounds like it may be more the camera for you.
Thanks for the input. I like the Ikon for its quiet and compact. I leave my DSLR at home most of the time . Like now cos i lug my notes and documents around. Digital Ikon is more on the plus side. I suppose Ikon lens will work on M9 if Ikon digital is not out but I think it will be ... Good glass will be good glass.
I shoot a lot of low light like street markets after 7pm....
So the Sony is going to be out of the picture then.
Zeiss seems to be logical and looks so much better than D700.
price of FIlm processing here is ok 8 USD for develop and scan
to jepg
Thanks for the advice i think i am set on
Zeiss + my current sony DSLR for shooting sessions
and Zeiss for travel and day to day
I agree, don't hold your breath for a digital Ikon. The big camera companies have all the technology and the market. Products like the Leica M and Zeiss Ikon serve a very small market. How would Zeiss recover development cost of a really stellar digital camera? If you can figure it out then let them know and maybe your dream will come true, otherwise buy what is on the market.
Thanks for the input. I like the Ikon for its quiet and compact. I leave my DSLR at home most of the time . Like now cos i lug my notes and documents around. Digital Ikon is more on the plus side. I suppose Ikon lens will work on M9 if Ikon digital is not out but I think it will be ... Good glass will be good glass.
I shoot a lot of low light like street markets after 7pm....
So the Sony is going to be out of the picture then.
Zeiss seems to be logical and looks so much better than D700.
price of FIlm processing here is ok 8 USD for develop and scan
to jepg
Thanks for the advice i think i am set on
Zeiss + my current sony DSLR for shooting sessions
and Zeiss for travel and day to day
How good are those scans? What film will you use to shoot night markets? How many shots will you take a month? What film do you shoot? I easily have spent more on film, developing and scanning in a year than the cost of my D700 which is technically better in nearly every way. I do however like carrying something smaller and lighter most of the time.
Al Kaplan
10-21-2009, 21:00
Bulk load your film, develop it yourself, and it's cheap.
Bulk load your film, develop it yourself, and it's cheap.
Maybe if you want to shoot B&W or even some C-41, but for most of us that's not the best option. You still have the issue of scanning to consider.
7 rolls a week max. Trying not to be trigger happy =)
to BWcolor I am not holding my breath for digital Ikon. If they don't come out in 3 yrsI will just get the M9.
scans are 1024 X 1024.
Self develop is much trouble and I feel it is better to shoot without chimping. More into the process.
Its true that I can get D700 for the amount of with cost film but investing into two systems? two set of lens and not to forget the weight of DSLR .
The outlay on d700 + maybe zeiss nikon lenses might be better spent on film.
I think 3 yrs time Digital rangefinder technology will be well and good.
I think 3 yrs time Digital rangefinder technology will be well and good.
Or gone forever, because Leica is the only one that does it, and if they go down, there is nobody to do it. Zeiss seems to have restricted themselfs to building lenses for whatever mount comes along the way. They do it for Canon, Nicon, Pentax and Leica mounts, but remember they don't have a big market share because of the lack of AF. For the look in the crystal globe, you have to get out of the RFF and maybe one or two other forums where really enthusiasts have the say and look at the bigger picture, where the money comes from. And in that case, you will see there are not that many who would buy a digital rangefinder - and we already have one in its second generation now. If Zeiss goes out with one, I wonder how many new customers they can get to the market, ie make the market grow, and not getting them away from Leica, because I don't think two struggling competitors is what we need.
Of course, since the highest price I shelled out for a camera was little over 1000EUR, I would like to see other digital rangefinders than the Leica, out of purely selfish reasons.
If you are ok with your current DSLR, keep in and get a film body ( I might suggest a Voigtlander Bessa would also be an alternative ) and start building a lens lineup and shoot a rangefinder ( that's what I am doing right now, don't know how it will work out ) and get used to the whole system. Then, maybe, one day you will get yourself a digital rangefinder in M-mount.
Zeiss makes autofocus lenses for Sony...
If you are ok with your current DSLR, keep in and get a film body ( I might suggest a Voigtlander Bessa would also be an alternative ) and start building a lens lineup and shoot a rangefinder ( that's what I am doing right now, don't know how it will work out ) and get used to the whole system. Then, maybe, one day you will get yourself a digital rangefinder in M-mount.
A zeiss ikon user let me see into his viewfinder. LOVE is the word.
The M9 is stirring up quite an awesome response.
I considered the bessa but found the ikon more adept.
Selling my DSLR gear is because its just not practical to carry around. I am using my minolta 7sii more than my dslr. Using something that cost 200 while keeping another that cost 2000 in the dry cabinet just irrates me =)
I don't doubt that zeiss can make a digital rangefinder. The tech is there but it is just the cost issue. Thats why I have said 3 yrs time. or maybe photokina 2012.
If Zeiss is really risk averse maybe 8yrs? cos
PNS user wants better IQ and people like me who used a dslr but hate the size. Ricoh grd3 ,g11, X1 will drive demand for FF sensor. There will be a point where FF sensor is available to all just like the current PNS sensor. Someone will jump sooner or later.
Maybe I am just too optimistic...
Roger Hicks
10-23-2009, 07:33
A zeiss ikon user let me see into his viewfinder. LOVE is the word.
The M9 is stirring up quite an awesome response.
I considered the bessa but found the ikon more adept.
Selling my DSLR gear is because its just not practical to carry around. I am using my minolta 7sii more than my dslr. Using something that cost 200 while keeping another that cost 2000 in the dry cabinet just irrates me =)
I don't doubt that zeiss can make a digital rangefinder. The tech is there but it is just the cost issue. Thats why I have said 3 yrs time. or maybe photokina 2012.
If Zeiss is really risk averse maybe 8yrs? cos
PNS user wants better IQ and people like me who used a dslr but hate the size. Ricoh grd3 ,g11, X1 will drive demand for FF sensor. There will be a point where FF sensor is available to all just like the current PNS sensor. Someone will jump sooner or later.
Maybe I am just too optimistic...
Yes, you are too optimistic. Zeiss is not just risk averse: they are building-consumer-cameras averse. They'll cheerfully let someone use Zeiss names as long as they are convinced that the camera is worthy of the Zeiss name. On top of this, Kobayashi-san (of Cosina, who buildz ZIs) is digital averse.
Yes, the technology exists -- and it's locked down with Leica and Kodak patents, which means that for other people, the technology does not exist. In fact, it's worse than that. Not only do they have to do all the R&D: they then have to come up with solutions that don't infringe existing patents. Not outstandingly likely, in my view, for the tiny market segment involved.
Incidentally, for ZI, M8 and M8.2 reviews, go to http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/reviews.html
Cheers,
R.
If you're in love with the Ikon... I'd get an Ikon. If you buy something else you'll still be wishing and wondering what life would be like with an Ikon. I have an Ikon and a DSLR... more often than not I pick up the Ikon. And the D700 is a great machine.... but it's sooooo big. And the good news is... if you're willing to wait 3 to 5 years for a FF digital... by then you might be able to get a user M9 for... a slightly more affordable price assuming there's no digital Ikon.
peripatetic
10-23-2009, 13:54
I have an Ikon and a 5DMkII.
Use them both. Love the images from the 5DMkII, but don't love the camera.
The ZI is a thing of beauty and wonderful to use.
Double Negative
10-23-2009, 14:08
Just throwing my "the ZI is awesome" into the mix...
arseniii
10-23-2009, 14:31
The Ikon is great, but the D700 is soooo good. Get it.
Aren't RFF members suppose to get new photographers involved into RF system? OP, don't listen for this terrible advise buy an Ikon it will save you from back pains of carrying an evil DSLR. :angel:
Aren't RFF members suppose to get new photographers involved into RF system? OP, don't listen for this terrible advise buy an Ikon it will save you from back pains of carrying an evil DSLR. :angel:
Aren't you supposed to give the advice that makes the most sense? Get off my nuts.
http://www.lezebre.lu/images/get-off-my-nuts.gif
gilpen123
10-23-2009, 16:12
Film for B&W, digital for color
There is no need to quote you guys are AWESOME. In the process of liquidating my DSLR kit. Zooms are the first to go.
Your right on the patent thing but seriously they will start selling the tech but my guess is that sony being big on FF sensors will get one ready I hope. BTW a M4/3 sony is coming out, sew flagship too!! I love photokina year.
I am BW person so keeping it that way is nice.
IKON it is!!
Now guys need your help on lens selection!! i'm getting the 85/f2 but not sure of which 35 and 50...
Voig 35f1.2 or 35f2 biogon ?
Voig 50f1.1 or Zeiss 50f2
I think the 50f1.1 and a 35f2 biogon
I need sharp wide open. LOW or NO light is my general shooting condition.
Hope newbies will read here too =)
on the digital that was the plan. No D ikon use M9
My camerashop dude think i should go leica all the way and never look back. obvious leica lover.
WE all wish but I don't want to break the bank.
Again I think you guys are awesome. RF shot are just RF shots you just seem to know it that cos you can never get close enough with a dslr. Even with the long lens the compression is a tell tale sign. just my 2 cents
Roger Hicks
10-24-2009, 07:33
There is no need to quote you guys are AWESOME. In the process of liquidating my DSLR kit. Zooms are the first to go.
Your right on the patent thing but seriously they will start selling the tech but my guess is that sony being big on FF sensors will get one ready I hope. BTW a M4/3 sony is coming out, sew flagship too!! I love photokina year.
Why would they sell the technology? To allow a competitor to set up against them and take away a share of a tiny market? Hardly! And in 'big on FF sensors' the key word is 'big' = mass market. Again, why would Sony bother with a fraction of a niche market, when the sensor can only be used with an FF RF in competition with Leica? Who is going to make the camera? Sony? Dream on...
Have fun with your RF(s)!
Cheers,
R.
wblanchard
10-24-2009, 07:50
I shoot with the new Carl Zeiss Ikon 1.4 50 and other Planar ZE lenses that Cosina introduced for Canon EF mounts.
I shoot full frame with my 5d Mark II and the Manual 1.4 50mm ZE almost 98% of the time now.
I almost bought the Ikon camera, but weighed the pros and cons of film use versus digital (for my work and self) and decided to go digital with the camera and use the glass.
The sad thing is, my Hexar AF with film always blew my digital images out of the water, but the Zeiss ZE lens is amazing on a digital mount.
There is no need to quote you guys are AWESOME. In the process of liquidating my DSLR kit. Zooms are the first to go.
Your right on the patent thing but seriously they will start selling the tech but my guess is that sony being big on FF sensors will get one ready I hope. BTW a M4/3 sony is coming out, sew flagship too!! I love photokina year.
I am BW person so keeping it that way is nice.
IKON it is!!
Now guys need your help on lens selection!! i'm getting the 85/f2 but not sure of which 35 and 50...
Voig 35f1.2 or 35f2 biogon ?
Voig 50f1.1 or Zeiss 50f2
I think the 50f1.1 and a 35f2 biogon
I need sharp wide open. LOW or NO light is my general shooting condition.
Hope newbies will read here too =)
on the digital that was the plan. No D ikon use M9
My camerashop dude think i should go leica all the way and never look back. obvious leica lover.
WE all wish but I don't want to break the bank.
Again I think you guys are awesome. RF shot are just RF shots you just seem to know it that cos you can never get close enough with a dslr. Even with the long lens the compression is a tell tale sign. just my 2 cents
With an RF I think small is important. I wouldn't buy the 85/2. What's the point? While the 35/2 Biogon is tempting (it really performs well, but it is not as small as you'd think) if you have to have low light performance get the 35/1.2 and 50/1.1 CV combo. Both are great lenses, but they are BIG. I'd get something wider vs longer. Since you passed up a $2400 DSLR for a $1000 or less Ikon I think you can use the difference to get some nice glass.
I am being very optimistic .... on digital zeiss ikon... There is a M9 to hang on to so I can be optimistic i suppose. The CV fast lenses are amazing. Hope I get a good copy. But one fast lens should be enough so 1 CV fast lens and a zeiss. The 85/2 is for protrait when its not possible. Coming from DSLR I don't find it too big. But I will have to consider that.
Is the 85/f4 viable option?
I am being very optimistic .... on digital zeiss ikon... There is a M9 to hang on to so I can be optimistic i suppose. The CV fast lenses are amazing. Hope I get a good copy. But one fast lens should be enough so 1 CV fast lens and a zeiss. The 85/2 is for protrait when its not possible. Coming from DSLR I don't find it too big. But I will have to consider that.
Is the 85/f4 viable option?
There is far less copy variation than reported. CV lenses have just as much QC as Zeiss lenses. They're made in the same factory after all. I would skip anything over 50mm and see how you like it. Long lenses on RF aren't the easiest things to use.
Thats very true. might settle for 15mm biogon instead then . with 35f2 Zeiss and VC 50 1.1
Skip the 15 Biogon and get the m-mount 15 Heliar.
Why? no 15mm zeiss? Size?
Maybe if you want to shoot B&W or even some C-41, but for most of us that's not the best option. You still have the issue of scanning to consider.
What issue? What other option are you talking about anyway? Slide film (as if there is anything else)?
Why? no 15mm zeiss? Size?
Its huge, it's not RF coupled and it's EXPENSIVE.
What issue? What other option are you talking about anyway? Slide film (as if there is anything else)?
Most of us don't have the ability to bulk load and develop all of our film at home. I would have to quit my job to be able to do that, but then I couldn't even put food on the table. I don't think bulk-loading and home development is a solution for most people. I'd be willing to try it for B&W, but that's about it.
I don't know why you say that. I work as hard as anyone... however, I find time. Bulk loading is not at all time consuming. It takes about 30 minutes to load up a 100' roll. Developing is more time consuming, but with my current workflow it takes about 30 minutes to develop 5 rolls... Photographing and printing is what really takes the time.
I thought that hobbies were suppose to take time and you do them because you enjoy the hobby. No enjoyment, find another way to get things done, or another hobby that you do enjoy. For some, this means digital, or film lab. For others it means hours of work to produce an end product. For many it is a little bit of both approaches.
I admit I've never bulk loaded so after I shoot all of the film I already have up I'll have to give it a try.
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