View Full Version : The Third Time is the Charm
Bill Pierce
10-12-2009, 13:35
As many of you know, my first two M8’s, some of the first delivered, went belly up and were replaced by Leitz by an M8 that has seen a lot of work and performed flawlessly. Recently I took a month off and thought it would be a good time to have the M8 upgraded with the quieter, lower vibration shutter and bright line frames set for two meters.
The new shutter is much quieter; the new frame lines, excellent for my use of the camera. Unfortunately, when it was returned the camera worked in auto exposure mode but not in manual. The right hand of the repair shop gives and the left hand takes away. Essentially, set one shutter speed, get another... Also on manual, if the top speed on the shutter dial (1/4000) was set, the screen information would indicate 1/8000 of a second, a speed not longer available with the new shutter. On manual, if you set the lowest speed (8 seconds) and the shutter would open for about 4.
Losing the camera for a second month just to repair Leitz’s own mistakes makes the camera useless to me professionally. I’ve pretty much given up on the camera as a professional tool, in spite of the fact that it is an exceptional camera when working. This is as much a problem of service as it is a camera problem.
I emailed the Leitz service center a rather whiney letter hoping they would offer a quick, local service since they had created the need for another visit to the repair shop and it was probably a very simple repair. I got the following message -
Thank You for Your e-mail.
I am out of the office until 17th of October 2009.
That was on last Friday, the 9th.
I've always been a fan of Leica, even sharing the stage with Walter Huen in the “old days” when the Leica School was presented at photojournalism schools. As a journalist I won the Leica Medal of Excellence. In that guise I've taken film Leicas into some very ugly situations and they have survived and performed well.
Giving up on Leica after they have entered the digital world that is now essential for a journalist is neither easy nor pleasant. Truth is, it’s very sad. But since I have given up and no longer will be using rangefinders, this thread will be my last posting on the Rangefinder Forum. To say that it’s been fun is an understatement. This forum has some rather wise and gracious folk who have been a pleasure to communicate with and learn from. As for the rest of us, enthusiasm and consideration for others has been remarkable on this forum - and that also has made it a pleasure.
emraphoto
10-12-2009, 14:16
I went through this exact same scenario with leicausa bill. In the end I gave up on leica digital cameras as working tools despite my m8's performing flawlessly for a year and a half. It wasn't the m8 that spoiled digital m for me, it was Leica's bollocks service.
Holy cr@p, Bill, we don't want to lose you. Please stay around for the Rodinal threads, at the very least! :D :D :D. Please ...
Brian Sweeney
10-12-2009, 15:01
We have an SLR Forum, a Point and Shoot Forum, and a Bill Pierce Forum!
You can post anything you want!
Al Kaplan
10-12-2009, 15:21
Enjoy your newfound freedom, Bill.
If you do choose to depart, it is understandable. I am sure that the overwhelming majority of posters here wish you wouldn't, however. I went from RF to DSLR, and they havent kicked me off yet :) so you certainly don't have to depart just because you aren't shooting a Leica anymore. Your experience and advice is certainly valued here, and if you do stick with your choice to leave, you will certainly be missed.
Bill, I like you more now that you aren't shooting an M8. ;)
Merkin: You're walkin' a thin line ... :D
If you leave you will indeed be missed. Leica should give you an M9.:)
newsgrunt
10-12-2009, 16:09
I'm hoping that this will not be your last post Bill and that you'll hang around and keep it real. It seems loyalty as a two way street is becoming less important. Leica has benefited from your use of their rangefinders so a little consideration is not too much to ask I'd think.
If I were handling professional service, I'd keep a list of names on my Blackberry. These would be the photographers who torture test cameras on the job and thus by extension give credibility to the gear. They would, and it may look unfair, get preferential service. Canon works this way as does Nikon.
Leica should have treated you better Bill. No, they should treat anyone who buys their gear, much better. Service should not be left to languish while someone is out of the office, that's pretty weak and a higher up should rattle some chains. They should have bent over backwards to correct their mistake.
Hopefully they'll come calling and make things square so you can keep a presence on RFF.
sonofdanang
10-12-2009, 16:13
Bill, it has been my observation that while this forum is titled RFF, very few actually use (as opposed to collect) rangefinders and even fewer professionally. Most of us, I suspect, are using RFs (in 35mm and digital) when we do personal work and the DSLR or P1 or whatever for the paying gigs; the client dictates the workflow, if indirectly. This means that a condition of your presence would not include what kind of camera you use.
For me, however, in stumbling upon this community I have experienced a Renaissance in my own work, some of it in the writing I do and some of it in the photography. You have been part of that, Bill. In the questions you've asked, the positions you've posited, I have found challenge that prompted growth. A simple but significant example is the BL-finder-on-a-DSLR concept. There are others but that's for another time, maybe. What we do is about seeing, and not just seeing visually. The ability to present an idea or a concept so others can 'see' the position is one of your hallmarks, mister. Few pleasures are greater than exploring another mind.
Not particularly interested in what you're shooting with. More interested in your imagery, and your mind, partner. Rather you stayed. But what is is what is, and I wish you all the best in all your future endeavors.
Keep your head up in the corners,
Shane
back alley
10-12-2009, 16:28
it's not like you have forgotten all that leica stuff all of a sudden...
wlewisiii
10-12-2009, 16:29
I only shoot for myself but I enjoy hearing, thinking &, most importantly, viewing the work of those who do shoot professionally for news or art. I do use a RF pretty much exclusivly, but I can get away with it because I only have to keep me, my wife & my son's grandparents happy ;) Thank you for what you've posted here.
Please stick around.
Thanks,
William
kshapero
10-12-2009, 17:46
Crap Bill, my M7 is warping away at Leica Repair and now you bolt. How am I to arrange this in my head?
BillBingham2
10-12-2009, 18:19
Bill,
Several thoughts come to mind, the first was OMG, perhaps the best coffee guy out there is leaving, NFW, we will not let it happen. After comfort food eating a bread/pasta bowl from Dominos (ordered before I read the news), I've calmed down a bit.
NPS used to be Nikon's answer to such silliness, not sure about Canon, but I'm sure they had theirs, WHATSUP Leica. Somewhere some bean counter dropped the ball. Just pure stupid. Keep in mind though that if Leica was good at repair we would not have the likes of Don (DAG) or Sherry (Ms. Golden Touch) and others. Sadly the M8/9 do not have the length of time in the field yet to develop/create/hatch such magical people. I hope that over the next five years or so that it will happen. There is no doubt they should have offered you a loaner on the return to fix their problem, even if you were not Bill P, it's just good business. He11 BMW does that on the third time (I have a friend who is a national service tech who keeps cars from becoming lemons).
Second, while yes this is a problem with service, it is really a problem with the QC (Quality Control) or lack there of when cameras are shipped home. While the shop should not have cause the problem, QC should have caught it. A simple check list of all major functions would have shown this problem in minutes. It's not like they needed to run a roll of film though it. Leica is just DUMB on this one. Give me an M8, M9 and an X1 for a few weeks and I will build them a check list to be run before shipping them out. While I'd love to keep either of the Ms I'd be happy to call it even with an X1.
If you are using a camera professionally I would strongly recommend that you have a full backup sitting ready. Swap out bodies every two weeks so that each gets used evenly. You did this with film (King of the Ms and Uncollectibles) perhaps without knowing it. Why not with Digital?
I do not know about Leica but I can tell you that great people on the phone or at the end of an email address are few and far between these days. Down Sizing has cut them out and the good ones that are there are pushed so hard to do their job and that of the guy/gal who was next to them but laid off that they forget. Remember it was not that long ago that Leica was almost at the end of their rope.
I'm hoping ZI or Nikon will come out with an alternative in FF. I think now there is a growing market for two digital rangefinder manufacturers.
There are many of us here on RFF that do not use rangefinders for our profession. Some of us use computers, others shoot with DSLRs, others believe it or not are Doctors. RFF is made up of people who want to learn. People who want to be challenged. People who want to share ideas and experience. I have not shot professionally with my S3-2000, yet. It might start in a couple of weeks maybe (my current contract is up this Friday with no replacement gig in sight). I no longer have any Ms. That doesn't stop me from sharing my experience with people who are starting out looking for their second lens for their M or such. You have forgotten more about Leica stuff that I will ever know. Please do not give up on RFF just because Solms should be slapped across the face a few times.
You bring so much good, so much challenging, such great ideas to all of the readers at RFF, loosing your contribution would be a shame. I also want to point out that for every respondent to your comments I bet there are at least ten others who read it. You, Tom, and the others help out hundreds of people around the world.
Another point, perhaps a bit harder to see in your current state. Leica has made a number of your favorite tools to create the magic that you do. While they do not need as much of your help with products that they might have say three years ago (I believe they are now on track) they need your help now with service. Something they have forgotten and that for the working Pro is a critical part of life. Reach out to the numb-nuts and help them. Don't give up, see how they can fix it. I believe that the mark of a truly great company is not that they do not make mistakes, but rather in how well they fix them. I always tell everyone who works for me I expect mistakes. If you never make them then you are not working hard enough. We will debrief after every major mistake (major defined as $$, Risk, Customer Impact) and if you make the same mistake twice it will be more than a debriefing, there will be consequences. On the third time through of the same mistake you will never be given another chance. I understand you think this is the third time, but I think this is a different mistake, though with the same impact, you are SOL.
Thoughts?
B2 (;->
sonofdanang
10-12-2009, 19:44
Oh, and Bill, this is all apart from the a$$-clowns at L-USA. This place is the intersection set of those who have and those who have yet to. Don't impose an unnecessary condition upon your participation. The only requirement should be your own pleasure.
And, thank you, by the way. For everything.
Shane
Sorry you are going quie frankly you were the main reason Icome to rangefinder forum.
semordnilap
10-12-2009, 20:32
Bill,
Though I don't comment much, I have really appreciated all of the opinions, knowledge, and ideas you have shared here... it is always great to read what you have to say. I, as well as many others, will miss you if you go, but do hope you will stay. What happened with Leica service is a crying shame, really... nothing more need be said on that.
Anyway, whatever happens, thanks for everything!!!
Bill - It would be greatly appreciated by many of us if you would change your mind.
Thanks anyway
amateriat
10-12-2009, 21:29
Damn it , Bill, my head nearly hit the transom at this news. Leave if you must, and I'll try to understand, but of course would prefer you didn't.
Obviously, Leica dropped the ball big-time with you. They really can't afford slip-ups like this right now. I can only hope this bit of public airing lights a fire under their collective hindquarters and have them take action. At the very least, they owe you one hell of an apology.
Best wishes.
- Barrett
My tuppence worth. I a NKOTF. As such I've not yet had time to appreciate your contributions. But I must say it's a bit drastic leaving the RFF due to the minor technicality that you'll no longer be using a rangefinder. I scoured the different forums for a long time before becoming a member of RFF. It's the most entertaining, interesting and knowledge sharing forum there is. Others may be too serious, or not serious enough. If ever I stop shooting RF, I'll still hang out here, If they'll let me.... ;)
Leigh Youdale
10-13-2009, 00:49
Why not let the guys mount an RFF petition - a pressure group? Just give us an email address and they'll be deluged! You won't have to do a thing.
BillBingham2
10-13-2009, 17:00
That comment makes me wonder which of the Big 3 did you work for?
Service is just as critical as reliability, features and cost. I can not think of anything that keeps working forever without needing a bit of TLC from time to time. Has there any manufacturing line that has never turned out a lemon over say 20 years? How would you feel if you got that single lemon and just happen to get the lemon for the next 20 years that they sent you as your replacement for the first one?
I will never buy a Sony computer for the reason of service. Love many of their designs and ideas. But over in the US their service is way too poor for my needs.
B2 (;->
That comment makes me wonder which of the Big 3 did you work for?
Service is just as critical as reliability
If not the Big 3, certainly that (former, I hope) mentality. SERVICE IS EVERYTHING. OK, if a product is pure cr@p, service is irrelevant. But if you do not see Through The Customer's Eyes, you will ultimately fail., no matter how good your product.
photogdave
10-13-2009, 21:14
I
If a working pro can buy a Canon 5D Mk II with a 35/1.4 L lens and pretty much make the same image for reproduction as might be made with a Leica M9 with a 35 Summilux-Asph, then what criteria is used to choose between the two? Price, the Canon is thousands of dollars less. Service, it is increasingly apparent that Canon and Nikon value the patronage of working pros far more than does Leica. If one such as Bill Pierce has a problem with a camera he could call Nikon or Canon Professional Services and request a loaner for the duration of the repair of his own equipment. No questions asked other than where do you want the loaner shipped?
Just for the record, Canon does not consider the 5D to be a pro camera and they are not obliged to offer a CPS member a loaner for any other camera than a 1D series.
It doesn't mean they won't, but they are not obliged to.
Also, when I was news photographer I was unable to join NPS because Nikon didn't consider my equipment to be "professional" enough and because I didn't own enough of it.
emraphoto
10-13-2009, 21:15
Service has little to do with anything, What is important is that you have confidence in your equipment. You have to be 99.9% sure that the camera you are using is going to work. How many times in your life is Jack Ruby going to shoot Lee Harvey Oswald?
my friend, you are right... service has little to do with anything if you are busy photographing the kids, dog or the local county fair.
when you put cameras through the rigors of daily heavy, professional use service is EVERYTHING.
no offense is meant to the casual shooter of things mentioned above.
Jim Edmond
10-14-2009, 06:29
Bill, I hope you'll reconsider. I've enjoyed and learned from your insights since reading the chapters you wrote the the Leica Manual decades ago. Why not at least keep a film M with B&W for personal or backup pro work?
photogdave
10-14-2009, 07:19
CPS is actually a subscription service, now, offered in three tiers of service.
Not in Canada. Not yet anyway.
wlewisiii
10-14-2009, 10:51
I just found a copy of that edition of the Leica Manual at my public library and am devouring it. Thank you!
William
victoriapio
10-14-2009, 13:40
I have been fortunate with my M film cameras and did not buy an M8 until it had been debugged. So I have never had to send a camera, winder or lens to Leica for repair or even adjustment. While I cannot defend Leica's lack of QC (assuming the box wasn't dropped in shipping or somewhere along the way back to you), I would suggest a "cooling off" period before getting rid of the rangefinders. If you feel the same in a week or two, then by all means move forward.
I no longer drag myself around the world on assignments anymore but frankly, I have yet to find a camera I enjoy using like I do the M8. (I have a whole room full of canon DSLR equipment to sell you if you are choosing Canon for your work :^) and I have had to send in one Canon body to CPS for repair.) My photography - IMHO of couse - improves when I am behind a Leica - not so with DSLRs. So while I have much less to lose than you, I guess I would patiently wait for repair to be "re-repaired". I hope you reconsider and do the same. If not, keep clicking...
pesphoto
10-14-2009, 15:22
Bill, two words...YAshica GSN! Stay around
emraphoto
10-14-2009, 15:55
they make a digital gsn?
Pickett Wilson
10-14-2009, 16:20
What an amazing stream of nonsense. Castigating a guy who has been a working pro his entire long life for his decision to abandon a system that no longer meets his professional needs. Put your shiny unmarked Leicas back in the holster. Bill has done more with a camera in an average week than most of us will do in a lifetime. We're a bunch of poseurs. Bill is the real deal.
Good grief.
BillBingham2
10-14-2009, 16:58
1) Castigating
2) We're a bunch of poseurs.
3) Bill is the real deal.
1A) Castigating. I and many of the folks here love to be challenged by, learn from and just read what Bill has to say. His experience is wonderful and the fact that he is willing to share his time, knowledge and thoughts with us is a wonderful blessing. I am asking that he not give up on RFF even though he has to switch to a non RF camera for his current work. I do not disagree with his choice of switching from Leica, heck I don't use any Ms any more and only have a IIIa and stuff I got from my father. Service is a very interesting topic and one that Leica needs some help with.
2A) I gave up trying to impress other people after my father died way too young. I live in what I like to call OZ-North. It aint real america and the folks here live to impress each other with cars, boats, houses, wives, everything they can buy. I hate parts of it, but others I really like. You may feel you are a poseur, but I am not. I'm still make pictures that I really like. On a good day other people like them too. On a bad day, not so much. And on a really bad day I get yelled at for spending money on film and processing. If you feel you are a poseur, please enjoy but don't drag me into the group. There are a lot of very talented people here. A lot of great and generous people. A lot of fun people who accept a poke now and then, some who challenge the norm, and a few jerks who come and go. I like them all and try to remember the old saying that you stand a lot taller on peoples shoulders than you do on their feet. I treat everyone with respect, even when I think their actions are less than honorable.
3A) DAAAHHHHHHHHHHH. Bill is daMan.
You know, one out of three ain't bad. Heck if your were batting for the Cubs they'd have a .333 hitter and might make it to a world series again. Too bad your on base percentage is so low.
B2 (;->
wlewisiii
10-14-2009, 17:08
OZ-North? I have to remember that one as the old "X sq miles surrounded by reality" gets a bit old.
That said, Bill, you're right on the money here. I could care less what he uses, I want him to keep posting here because what he has to _say_ helps me with my photography. I know I can use any help I can get :bang:
William
BillBingham2
10-14-2009, 17:49
William,
OZ-North does not go up even to the WI boarder. Northbook, Lake Forest, Lake Bluff, Glencoe, Glenview, that's the area I call OZ-North. I am looking for a job up in Madison, family and I would love to move up (in so many ways) there.
I too can learn a lot from Bill and have over the time he's been posting. The crazy idea of Stephen's to do Coffee with the Experts ROCKS. While I don't often agree with Roger, he does get me thinking an awful lot and to me, that's great.
Please accept my apologies to all up above the cheddar curtain.
Your Favorite FIB,
B2 (;->
oftheherd
10-14-2009, 18:13
You may have other reasons for wishing to leave the forums. If that is so, go in peace and return when you can. You will be missed.
But just because you aren't using an M8 or even any Leica is certainly no reason to leave the forums. You insights into photography are a valuable resource to all here. Whatever you choose to use we will all benifit from hearing how it works for you.
As others have said, there are many forums here and most all of us use more than one type of camera, including film and digital.
Please stay and share your knowledge and insights. At least try and stop by from time to time.
God bless.
MCTuomey
10-14-2009, 18:35
Why do we have to pay for leicausa's mistake by losing you? C'mon, stay.
Welsh_Italian
10-15-2009, 00:02
Hi Bill,
I haven't posted here in a long time - work, emigration (to New Zealand) and other real life issues have been in the way of my photography. Despite this, I still drop by to RFF to chill out and Bill, your posts are the ones I want to read the most because I find them educational. You write superbly and the knowledge you have is even better. I've learned a great deal from you and some of your thought-provoking posts really got me thinking about how I can be a better photographer. I guess I'm one of the many who reads but rarely contributes.
So thanks mate - really, thanks - and all the best.
And if you do want to come back to RFF and continue educating learners like myself, then I'll have no complaints.
Bill Pierce
10-15-2009, 11:31
I talked to Jeff Hirsch, who runs Fotocare, probably the camera store in NYC that maintains the closest relationship with the largest number of top pros and amateurs (often some really good photographers who make a lot more money in their day jobs as film directors, corporation heads, e.t.c.). Jeff’s opinion is valuable because he’s not only been shooting for a lifetime at the same time he has been dealing with camera companies, but he’s been gathering the experience of his customers. It’s an impressive knowledge base.
Our conversation has been extensive and not always flattering to Leitz. But in the end, it boils down to keep the M8 and start a piggy bank for the M9.
So, that’s one reason I’m staying on the Rangefinder Forum. I'm still a rangefinder shooter.
The other is you folks. The kind things you have said verge on the embarrassing and certainly overstate my contributions to the forum. But, who isn’t a sucker for that kind of flattery? Things are a little hectic now, but I’ll start a new thread this evening.
Bill
oftheherd
10-15-2009, 11:38
I talked to Jeff Hirsch, who runs Fotocare, probably the camera store in NYC that maintains the closest relationship with the largest number of top pros and amateurs (often some really good photographers who make a lot more money in their day jobs as film directors, corporation heads, e.t.c.). Jeff’s opinion is valuable because he’s not only been shooting for a lifetime at the same time he has been dealing with camera companies, but he’s been gathering the experience of his customers. It’s an impressive knowledge base.
Our conversation has been extensive and not always flattering to Leitz. But in the end, it boils down to keep the M8 and start a piggy bank for the M9.
So, that’s one reason I’m staying on the Rangefinder Forum. I'm still a rangefinder shooter.
The other is you folks. The kind things you have said verge on the embarrassing and certainly overstate my contributions to the forum. But, who isn’t a sucker for that kind of flattery? Things are a little hectic now, but I’ll start a new thread this evening.
Bill
Thank you Sir!!
35mmdelux
10-15-2009, 11:53
Thanks for reconsidering Bill. We would be lost without you; the light would turn into darkness.
Livesteamer
10-15-2009, 12:06
Thanks for hanging around and please don't feel embarrassed. I am probably typical of many here, a lucky amateur who has a slowly invested in some Leicas and gets to shoot a few rolls a month. To be able to read what you and other more experienced fellows write is priceless. You often make me think and maybe even get a little better. Thanks for all your input and Good Luck with those digital Leicas. I know my M6 and M3 will outlast me so it's an OK investment but to put big money (for me) into an M8 or M9 and only get ten years or so, I don't know. Joe
sonofdanang
10-15-2009, 12:08
Yay!
_____________
Shooting M's and DSLRs
Harry Lime
10-15-2009, 12:14
Thank god you're staying, Bill. Rangefinder or no rangefinder in your bag.
We got plenty of gearheads among us, but very few serious photographers or people with your exprience.
The vast majority of interesting threads in your corner of the forum aren't about gear, but photography and that's a rarity.
I can't even begin to comment on Leica's customer service in civilized terms, so I'm not even going to try.
It's slow, expensive and QC stinks.
Leica should get on their knees every morning and give thanks for the unreasonable loyalty of their customer base.
Leica needs to be taken to the woodshed by a few heavy hitters, who are not out to ingratiate themselves or are gear-polishers and receive a talking to in very plain language.
At the very least they have to establish a pro-service. They are going to do it for the S2, so why not for the M series?
Benjamin Marks
10-15-2009, 12:20
Awwwww. Stick around, Bill. We aren't going to get less wise or enthusiastic because Leica scr**ed the pooch. Hey - we might even be good for a few laughs.
Ben Marks
Edit: Well, I see I am late as usual. Glad you'll be around Bill.
amateriat
10-15-2009, 12:23
Thanks for this, Bill!
Leica really does need to get its...act together on this, and while I'm somewhat confident that they will, I don't think it'll happen soon enough without the aforementioned fire lit under their collective tuchus. There's a lot of interesting stuff happening in the digital camera world right now, so the stakes for Solms are awfully high.
- Barrett
Juan Valdenebro
10-15-2009, 16:33
Thanks for staying... Your heart and mind make us happier and better.
So here's the deal ... a lot of us are of un certain age ... We grew up together, as it were, and Bill Pierce is one of the blokes we knew about. Here, on RFF, we get to know you, Bill, not just about you.
Thank you.
back alley
10-15-2009, 19:47
So here's the deal ... a lot of us are of un certain age ... We grew up together, as it were, and Bill Pierce is one of the blokes we knew about. Here, on RFF, we get to know you, Bill, not just about you.
Thank you.
well said and accurate for many of us. i can remember when i first started in photography i was an avid magazine reader, no internet then, and i could barely wait for the next issues of my faves to hit the new york news stands. bill's column was always one of those i looked forward to reading.
having you here is a an absolute pleasure.
joe
Al Kaplan
10-15-2009, 19:52
Yeah Bill, good to know you'll still be around. I've been reading you for ages and we're close in age so we've had many similar experiences. Maybe you'll even convince me to add a digital M to my kit yet!
Man, you had me worried there for a minute.
I haven't been hitting too many forums lately...and to come back to RFF today and see your resignation post, ...well it didn't make my day.
I'm glad you've decided to stay. Hell, I haven't shot my Leicas in almost a year but I still find great enjoyment in this site and your forum.
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