My first RF. need your opinions.

[multivitamins]

Hi guys,

Im shifting to RF coming from dslrdom. Been reading RF stuffs and somehow have an idea how RF works. Im thinking of getting bessa R3M but I really really like leica and wanted to get one as much as possible. But my prob is, I can only afford to spend $1200 - $1500. With this budget, do you think I can get a leica with 35-50mm fast lens? I don't mind using voigt lens on leica body.

[Ken Ford]

Hi, and welcome!

If you're willing to go unmetered and shop carefully, depending what you personally consider to be fast no problem at all meeting your budget even with Leica glass. Metered, you should be able to pull it off with either a Leica Summicron 40/2 or a wide choice of C-V lenses.

[multivitamins]

What lieca would you recommend?

[Ken Ford]

Bang for the buck, IMO it's hard to beat an M4-2 or M4-P for an unmetered body or an M6 Classic for metered.

[abumac]

If you look arround you should find a M6 classic and a Summicron 2/50 for 1600 or so. Go for a metered body, it is more fun.

[multivitamins]

If you look arround you should find a M6 classic and a Summicron 2/50 for 1600 or so. Go for a metered body, it is more fun.

Hopefully... Ebay would not be a good place to find a cheap M6. Hopefully one will pop in the classifieds. If I cn't find one by Nov. I might get a bessa. But leica... will be just a dream for now.

@Ken - Someone is selling an M4-P for $1200 with free watameter. Is that a good price?

[Ken Ford]

Seems really steep to me considering one sold in the classifieds here for $650 recently and that KEH has a bargain grade M6 for $1035 right now.

[multivitamins]

uh.. $650.... bad luck for me... Guess I need to watch out the classified. Been looking for some meter for m4. Hehe, they are also expensive... Is there an alternative meter for m4? Like 3rd party?

[snausages]

M6 + 40mm Summicron-c (or Rokkor). Get the Leica and worry about budgeting for lenses later.

[multivitamins]

M6 + 40mm Summicron-c (or Rokkor). Get the Leica and worry about budgeting for lenses later.

Yeah... Good advice. Hopefully I can find a cheap, in good condition m6. can't wait.


thanks.

[coelacanth]

There were at least two M4s went for $800 on classified in past two days, including mine in excellent condition.

And I scored a CLA'd SS M3 marked as "user" but turned out to be excellent condition for $600 there as well.

So yeah, definitely watch out the classifieds here. I find I can trust people here and what they are selling way way more than ebay or pretty much anywhere else on the interwebz. ;)

For metered M, I'd recommend M6 Classic with Elmar 50mm 2.8 (first version) You can get BGN grade (which is usually EX+ grade elsewhere) for $299 from KEH.

[multivitamins]

There were at least two M4s went for $800 on classified in past two days, including mine in excellent condition.

And I scored a CLA'd SS M3 marked as "user" but turned out to be excellent condition for $600 there as well.

So yeah, definitely watch out the classifieds here. I find I can trust people here and what they are selling way way more than ebay or pretty much anywhere else on the interwebz. ;)

For metered M, I'd recommend M6 Classic with Elmar 50mm 2.8 (first version) You can get BGN grade (which is usually EX+ grade elsewhere) for $299 from KEH.

Thanks. Im looking at KEH website now. Shipping price is also my prob. Im kinda in Asia. so I expect a $100+ shipping cost. Im really like the M6. I think I can wait until december and watch out for the classifieds. But.. I will not shoot for 2 months... Damn, I will use my cp camera again.

[multivitamins]

Just found an M3 body in EX cond. 449...

[Ken Ford]

A nice M3 is a thing of beauty...

[payasam]

Now that you have an M3, all you need is a lens or lenses -- and a meter which gives both incident and reflected readings. With the M3 you cannot use a 35mm (or wider) lens without an external finder.

[rpsawin]

uh.. $650.... bad luck for me... Guess I need to watch out the classified. Been looking for some meter for m4. Hehe, they are also expensive... Is there an alternative meter for m4? Like 3rd party?

Multi,

http://cameraquest.com/voivcmet2.htm

This is an excellent meter that can be used on an unmetered body.

Good luck!

Bob

[SimonSawSunlight]

M2 + lens of your choice and enough cash left for a CLA if needed :)

[multivitamins]

Guys. I did not buy the M3 yet. Still deciding. I really like the M6. but the M3 is also good with ext. meter on it.

[coelacanth]

As Ken said, well maintained M3 is such a joy to use. My 53 years young M3 is as smooth and silky as you can ever expect from any device. ;)

Just be sure to get one with recent CLA or add $80+shipping for Youxin's CLA, then you have a beautiful picture taking machine.

Do you have a link to the M3 you found?

[snausages]

Workflow is subjective, but I find I use my unmetered cameras less than my M6. Little extra steps add up, whether it's an external view finder or an external meter. And, for me at least, film loading with the M6 'tulip' is easier/quicker than an M3. Can't really go wrong with any of these options, and I don't know what your shooting style is so I'll shut up now...

[wgerrard]

Multi, not to throw a wrench into this, but have you had a chance to actually hold and use a Bessa or a Leica? I own a Bessa and, until last week, an M3 for a short time. I find the Bessa more comfortable to carry and use. Not that the M3 was uncomfortable. But, if someone ran a blind test on me, and I didn't know which camera was which, I'd pick the Bessa as the one that fits my hands better.

[burninfilm]

You should easily be able to accomodate a Leica M-mount body and a good 35 or 50mm lens for around $1200-$1500. Patience helps, too. I have picked up a user-condition M3, 50mm Summicron, and 90mm Summicron, and the total investment will be less than $800.

The quicker you want it, the more you'll pay for it. Just be sure to watch the classifieds sections at this site. In the past few weeks, several great deals have been posted for sale: a fully functional $900 M6 "Classic", several $800 M4s, a recently CLA'd $650 M4-P, etc. There have also been many good deals on lenses. Heck, there's a really nice 50mm f2.8 M-mount Elmar for sale for $325. If you can work with the f2.8 max aperture, that'd be a great lens option, and it's being sold by a reliable, well reputed seller.

[coelacanth]

What burninfilm said. I have no personal connection with the seller, but that Elmar 50/2.8 is a fantastic lens. And with a rangefinder like Ms, you can shoot 1/4 sec speed with pretty decent results. That's quite difficult with DSLRs because of mirror shock. (sure, those anti-shaky thing is one thing, but still) So don't be afraid of F2.8. ;)

[multivitamins]

As Ken said, well maintained M3 is such a joy to use. My 53 years young M3 is as smooth and silky as you can ever expect from any device. ;)

Just be sure to get one with recent CLA or add $80+shipping for Youxin's CLA, then you have a beautiful picture taking machine.

Do you have a link to the M3 you found?

I found it at KEH.com. As much as possible I want to purchase my first RF here in RF Forum. Members are too nice and can be trusted. Unlike Ebay, I was cheated for about 3x. Luckly what I bougth were not expensive.

Workflow is subjective, but I find I use my unmetered cameras less than my M6. Little extra steps add up, whether it's an external view finder or an external meter. And, for me at least, film loading with the M6 'tulip' is easier/quicker than an M3. Can't really go wrong with any of these options, and I don't know what your shooting style is so I'll shut up now...

I do mostly portraits using my dslr and got into wedding and photojournalism. Now Im gettin tired using an SLR and wanted to explore RF and have fun. What I use now is a cheap Konica C35 that has a zone focus mech. Sharp lil cam. But recently the metering died and Im really having a hard time using it.

I really prefer the M6 over the M3. but as long as the M3 has a good and accurate external meter I think Its ok for me.

Multi, not to throw a wrench into this, but have you had a chance to actually hold and use a Bessa or a Leica? I own a Bessa and, until last week, an M3 for a short time. I find the Bessa more comfortable to carry and use. Not that the M3 was uncomfortable. But, if someone ran a blind test on me, and I didn't know which camera was which, I'd pick the Bessa as the one that fits my hands better.

No chance here in our country to try a bessa or leica. They don't sell it here. Stores here mostly sell DSLR and point & shoot.
Second-hand shops sell zorki, but I don't really like the zorki in my hands.

What made me decide to choose M6 over Bessa? My favorite wedding photographer uses M6. But Bessa would be my next alternative if my funds does not permit me to buy an M6.


You should easily be able to accomodate a Leica M-mount body and a good 35 or 50mm lens for around $1200-$1500. Patience helps, too. I have picked up a user-condition M3, 50mm Summicron, and 90mm Summicron, and the total investment will be less than $800.

The quicker you want it, the more you'll pay for it. Just be sure to watch the classifieds sections at this site. In the past few weeks, several great deals have been posted for sale: a fully functional $900 M6 "Classic", several $800 M4s, a recently CLA'd $650 M4-P, etc. There have also been many good deals on lenses. Heck, there's a really nice 50mm f2.8 M-mount Elmar for sale for $325. If you can work with the f2.8 max aperture, that'd be a great lens option, and it's being sold by a reliable, well reputed seller.

Woh! Good deal indeed! M3+50+90 for $800?! Such a nice deal. I really like to get a fast lens like 1.2 to 2. I'll be using it to practice for wedding shots. I'll check out the reviews of this lens and see if I like the bokeh. I mostly select my fast lenses based on the bokeh that the lens can produce.

Do you have any experience with this lens in low light?

What burninfilm said. I have no personal connection with the seller, but that Elmar 50/2.8 is a fantastic lens. And with a rangefinder like Ms, you can shoot 1/4 sec speed with pretty decent results. That's quite difficult with DSLRs because of mirror shock. (sure, those anti-shaky thing is one thing, but still) So don't be afraid of F2.8. ;)

Yeah. at 2.8, dslr needs to have atleast iso 800-1600 to get decent shots (sharp) in low light - which most likely will produce evil noise unless your dslr has good high ISO results.

I'll check the review of Elmar 50/2.8. Looks like a great deal. Do you have any experience with this lens in low light?

Thanks.

I

[David Hughes]

M2 + lens of your choice and enough cash left for a CLA if needed :)

I'll second that. The line up of 35 - 50 -90 is great and leaving out the 50 gives a good two lens kit. M2's should be CLA'd - usually (just to be safe) unless you know the history and see the receipts for the last service.

I always think the meter should match the camera; you can get Westons of the right vintage for a pound or two and, again, a CLA for a Weston will work wonders. Once on the slippery slope you'll be looking for an elderly screw thread model and the old Westons have the right speeds and apertures on the dials for anything.

Regards, David

[januaryman]

Now that you have an M3, all you need is a lens or lenses -- and a meter which gives both incident and reflected readings. With the M3 you cannot use a 35mm (or wider) lens without an external finder.
I agree that once you have an M3 you "need" lenses, but you do not "need" a meter. I often travel about without one, using Sunny 16.

Not to say that I never use one, that is! ;)

[Benjamin]

Buy a Leica M4-P, a Voigtlander VCII (hot shoe mounted) meter or a Sekonic L308s.

With regard to lenses there are too many possibly valid options to list.

The Voigtlander lenses are fantastic optically though the lens bodies are where the money is saved. The 35mm f/2.5 PII Color Skopar in particular is of superb pedigree.

Zeiss ZM glass is also excellent, supposedly very modern looking with high contrast and good flare control. The 50mm f/1.5 C Sonnar is the black sheep here, more of an antiquated look but with a modern coating. Probably not the best first lens, but a beautiful bit of kit. The 50mm f/2 Planar or 35mm f/2.8 would probably be a good choice.

Leica M lenses you have a lot of options. Summicrons may be slightly out of budget, though the 50mm f/2 DR and Rigid Summicron's are affordable, but old. Be aware of soft coatings and that a lot of older M mount (and indeed LTM) lenses only focus to 1m; your M6 or M4-P for example can couple to .7m.

Hope some of this ramble helps. Good luck.

[multivitamins]

Buy a Leica M4-P, a Voigtlander VCII (hot shoe mounted) meter or a Sekonic L308s.

With regard to lenses there are too many possibly valid options to list.

The Voigtlander lenses are fantastic optically though the lens bodies are where the money is saved. The 35mm f/2.5 PII Color Skopar in particular is of superb pedigree.

Zeiss ZM glass is also excellent, supposedly very modern looking with high contrast and good flare control. The 50mm f/1.5 C Sonnar is the black sheep here, more of an antiquated look but with a modern coating. Probably not the best first lens, but a beautiful bit of kit. The 50mm f/2 Planar or 35mm f/2.8 would probably be a good choice.

Leica M lenses you have a lot of options. Summicrons may be slightly out of budget, though the 50mm f/2 DR and Rigid Summicron's are affordable, but old. Be aware of soft coatings and that a lot of older M mount (and indeed LTM) lenses only focus to 1m; your M6 or M4-P for example can couple to .7m.

Hope some of this ramble helps. Good luck.

Thanks ben. I think I'll be getting the M6. Hopefully by the end of october or november. I need to watch the classifieds. As for the lens, voigt is good to me. I think they make good lenses. Been thinking of getting the Elmar 50/2 listed on the classifieds. Is it good? Its only $325.

Thanks.

[coelacanth]

OK, Elmar 50mm/2.8 first version is by no mean "modern" looking lens. Lower contrast, not so fast, not crazy sharp. But if you like the characteristics, it's a superb lens. I love the "3D" look that's not really by shallow DOF.

I got mine from KEH BGN grade (really was EX+ in evilbay standard) for $299 + US shipping without caps. I believe the seller here is selling with Leica metal front cap and generic rear cap in excellent condition. If the shipping cost can be managed well to your destination, I think it's a quite good deal.

Here are some sample shots. Both shots are HP5 at rated speed.

Probably shutter speed 1/10 sec. (M3)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2563/3952880648_bcd762d614.jpg

1/60 (M4)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2627/3917208256_4caf696424.jpg

[Benjamin]

Thanks ben.



Been thinking of getting the Elmar 50/2 listed on the classifieds. Is it good? Its only $325.

Thanks.

The old Elmar and the newer Elmar-M, f/2.8 are both excellent lenses. If it has been looked after, you probably can't go wrong.

I still want one!

[multivitamins]

OK, Elmar 50mm/2.8 first version is by no mean "modern" looking lens. Lower contrast, not so fast, not crazy sharp. But if you like the characteristics, it's a superb lens. I love the "3D" look that's not really by shallow DOF.

I got mine from KEH BGN grade (really was EX+ in evilbay standard) for $299 + US shipping without caps. I believe the seller here is selling with Leica metal front cap and generic rear cap in excellent condition. If the shipping cost can be managed well to your destination, I think it's a quite good deal.

Here are some sample shots. Both shots are HP5 at rated speed.

Probably shutter speed 1/10 sec. (M3)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2563/3952880648_bcd762d614.jpg

1/60 (M4)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2627/3917208256_4caf696424.jpg

Wow. I like the cat shot. Pretty nice stuff. Thanks for sharing. Now im thinkin of getting it.

The old Elmar and the newer Elmar-M, f/2.8 are both excellent lenses. If it has been looked after, you probably can't go wrong.

I still want one!

Thanks benj. i like the lens now. The lens is exc as proved by the shots posted above.

[watchyourbackgrounds]

I'm as pro-no-meter as most of the next guys, and I appreciate the silky tankness of the M3, but this I can't imagine a better camera for a sincere RF beginner (or even vet) than a modern Bessa. R2, R3, R4----M or A--doesn't matter. If these cameras didn't exist, they'd be the ones we'd be pining for. Solid construction, M-'patibility, features the M3 designer would have signed off on in a second had the technology existed at the time.....and cheap as bones (relatively speaking). There isn't a RF enthusiast on the planet who has only one camera, and you (multivitamin) won't be the first.
As for lenses...go with whatever, but I think anybody will find that modern Japanese lenses compare favorably-PLUS with the older German ones, and cost less. The Leica lure will always be there, Leicas will always be there, but for a starter kind (drumroll): Any modern Bessa, and a wide and normal Voigt lens, maybe even the 28/3.5 or 35/2.5 screwmounts with M-dapter (super cheap, super deals), and then a 50-something. I'd go with the LTM 50/2.5 again--it's under $300.
Anyway, just get into it. Don't turn into a Leica handwringer neo-connoisseur at this stage of the game. Get a Bessa, get shooting!

[multivitamins]

I'm as pro-no-meter as most of the next guys, and I appreciate the silky tankness of the M3, but this I can't imagine a better camera for a sincere RF beginner (or even vet) than a modern Bessa. R2, R3, R4----M or A--doesn't matter. If these cameras didn't exist, they'd be the ones we'd be pining for. Solid construction, M-'patibility, features the M3 designer would have signed off on in a second had the technology existed at the time.....and cheap as bones (relatively speaking). There isn't a RF enthusiast on the planet who has only one camera, and you (multivitamin) won't be the first.
As for lenses...go with whatever, but I think anybody will find that modern Japanese lenses compare favorably-PLUS with the older German ones, and cost less. The Leica lure will always be there, Leicas will always be there, but for a starter kind (drumroll): Any modern Bessa, and a wide and normal Voigt lens, maybe even the 28/3.5 or 35/2.5 screwmounts with M-dapter (super cheap, super deals), and then a 50-something. I'd go with the LTM 50/2.5 again--it's under $300.
Anyway, just get into it. Don't turn into a Leica handwringer neo-connoisseur at this stage of the game. Get a Bessa, get shooting!

Hi. tnx for the advice. Yeah, maybe its only me wanting the leica since its one of the best in RF. But I thought about getting a bessa first and then upgrade to leica after a year with bessa or when I have enough knowledge in RF. Ryt now I ordered a Kiev 4 in contax mount just to have a taste of what RF is like. I got it really cheap though with 2 lenses and a meter included.

lets see what October 30th will bring to me from the classifieds. I really like the LTM 50/2.5......

[multivitamins]

I'm as pro-no-meter as most of the next guys, and I appreciate the silky tankness of the M3, but this I can't imagine a better camera for a sincere RF beginner (or even vet) than a modern Bessa. R2, R3, R4----M or A--doesn't matter. If these cameras didn't exist, they'd be the ones we'd be pining for. Solid construction, M-'patibility, features the M3 designer would have signed off on in a second had the technology existed at the time.....and cheap as bones (relatively speaking). There isn't a RF enthusiast on the planet who has only one camera, and you (multivitamin) won't be the first.
As for lenses...go with whatever, but I think anybody will find that modern Japanese lenses compare favorably-PLUS with the older German ones, and cost less. The Leica lure will always be there, Leicas will always be there, but for a starter kind (drumroll): Any modern Bessa, and a wide and normal Voigt lens, maybe even the 28/3.5 or 35/2.5 screwmounts with M-dapter (super cheap, super deals), and then a 50-something. I'd go with the LTM 50/2.5 again--it's under $300.
Anyway, just get into it. Don't turn into a Leica handwringer neo-connoisseur at this stage of the game. Get a Bessa, get shooting!

Hi. tnx for the advice. Yeah, maybe its only me wanting the leica since its one of the best in RF. But I thought about getting a bessa first and then upgrade to leica after a year with bessa or when I have enough knowledge in RF. Ryt now I ordered a Kiev 4 in contax mount just to have a taste of what RF is like. I got it really cheap though with 2 lenses and a meter included.

lets see what October 30th will bring to me from the classifieds. I really like the LTM 50/2.5......

[maddoc]

I would always invest as much in the lens(es) and get a cheaper camera-body instead.... A Leica M4-2 / M4-P is as cheap and good as it gets and an external meter is cheaper (and easier to repair or exchange) than the internal electronics of a M6 / M6TTL.

M2/M3/M4 are nice cameras (I had multiple of them ...) but usually more worn, need the one or other part serviced and that's expensive.

A used 35mm Summicron would be great to start with but if you don't need the f/2.0, a nice 35/2.8 Summaron (m-mount and without the googles) is a good lens, too.

[shadowfox]

Guys. I did not buy the M3 yet. Still deciding. I really like the M6. but the M3 is also good with ext. meter on it.

Make sure that you can live without framelines for wider angle if you get an M3, and loading is not as easy/fast as M4-P or M6.

As for meter, unless you mainly shoot slide films, some readings on Sunny-16 and a few rolls to practice will make you less dependent on meters. I personally think it is more satisfying to produce good photos without a meter.

A good M4-P is a couple hundred dollars less than a good M6. Use the money to get a better lens, or to buy film.

[Merkin]

I would also recommend a Bessa, especially since you said you felt a bit lost when the meter in your Konica went out. They can be had brand new for the cost of a 30 to 50 year old Leica, they have a meter, they can use all of the same lenses, and you can choose your model based on the shooting you do, i.e. more wide angle, more normal, or more tele. You also have the choice of a fully manual version or an aperture priority/fully manual version. Any used Leica is a bit of an unknown quantity- sometimes examples that look fantastic on the outside have serious internal issues, and sometimes leicas that look like they have been run over by a truck work flawlessly. With a brand new bessa, you know it will work, and if it doesn't for some reason, it has a warranty. Also, since you do portraiture and some photojournalism work, you might find yourself in a position where you need or want to use a flash, and the bessas have a 1/125 sync speed compared to the leica's 1/50th sync speed. Also, since you are in Asia, you can probably have one shipped to you from HK or tokyo (or europe, depending on your location in asia) cheaper than you could have something shipped from the states.

As to your favorite wedding photographer using an M6, the question you should be asking yourself is which lens and which film he or she uses- that will make a much bigger difference.

[thomasw_]

As others have suggested, get the M2 or M4-P as your first Leica. The M4-P is more costly than a M2, but it has all 6 of the modern framelines, 28-90, 35-135, 50-75. The M2 has the classic style and the simplest, non-distracting framelines that come up alone as 35 50 90. An old M2 or M4-P will do most everything you seem to desire; the M3 is useless for 35s which makes it rather lame for a one camera kit unless you only shoot 50s and longer. Don't fret about the differences in film loading or build quality; these are non sequitur topics.

Use the M-mount group to help you find the best lens for your vision.

FWIW, I'd spend less on an old M2 and meter, and more on the lens.

[coelacanth]

I second what Thomas said about choosing M2 for lower body price = more budget on lens.

And I think you'll like simple 35/50/90 framelines. (and you can use whole VF as 28mm).

[multivitamins]

I would always invest as much in the lens(es) and get a cheaper camera-body instead.... A Leica M4-2 / M4-P is as cheap and good as it gets and an external meter is cheaper (and easier to repair or exchange) than the internal electronics of a M6 / M6TTL.

M2/M3/M4 are nice cameras (I had multiple of them ...) but usually more worn, need the one or other part serviced and that's expensive.

A used 35mm Summicron would be great to start with but if you don't need the f/2.0, a nice 35/2.8 Summaron (m-mount and without the googles) is a good lens, too.

I really need to have a fast lens for weddings. I think f2 would be great for me. I've seen many m4-p on the used market lately - $600 -$700 etc... and looks good to me. Im just concerned with the metering. I don't have any idea if its hard to use an external metering device.

Make sure that you can live without framelines for wider angle if you get an M3, and loading is not as easy/fast as M4-P or M6.

As for meter, unless you mainly shoot slide films, some readings on Sunny-16 and a few rolls to practice will make you less dependent on meters. I personally think it is more satisfying to produce good photos without a meter.

A good M4-P is a couple hundred dollars less than a good M6. Use the money to get a better lens, or to buy film.

If you don't mind me asking a noob question - whats sunny 16?

Any way, I already have lots of rolls here waiting to be burned by my future RF.

Is M6 that good as compared to M4-P?

I would also recommend a Bessa, especially since you said you felt a bit lost when the meter in your Konica went out. They can be had brand new for the cost of a 30 to 50 year old Leica, they have a meter, they can use all of the same lenses, and you can choose your model based on the shooting you do, i.e. more wide angle, more normal, or more tele. You also have the choice of a fully manual version or an aperture priority/fully manual version. Any used Leica is a bit of an unknown quantity- sometimes examples that look fantastic on the outside have serious internal issues, and sometimes leicas that look like they have been run over by a truck work flawlessly. With a brand new bessa, you know it will work, and if it doesn't for some reason, it has a warranty. Also, since you do portraiture and some photojournalism work, you might find yourself in a position where you need or want to use a flash, and the bessas have a 1/125 sync speed compared to the leica's 1/50th sync speed. Also, since you are in Asia, you can probably have one shipped to you from HK or tokyo (or europe, depending on your location in asia) cheaper than you could have something shipped from the states.

As to your favorite wedding photographer using an M6, the question you should be asking yourself is which lens and which film he or she uses- that will make a much bigger difference.

About the bessa. I saw one in the classifieds selling a bessa R. Is it good? Im thinking of getting it and buy some good lenses instead of getting an R3A /M which i can save almost $300. Well, bout the flash, its not yet part of my plan since ive heard that RF is really good in low light.

Ryt now, Im still waiting and observing the classifieds.

About my favorite photographer. HIs using 4x M6TTL with high-end leica lenses not to mention the famous noctx 1:1. He uses Tri-X and some colord 65 films.

Well, I can't afford what he have unless LEICA would sponsor me which is definitely impossible.

As others have suggested, get the M2 or M4-P as your first Leica. The M4-P is more costly than a M2, but it has all 6 of the modern framelines, 28-90, 35-135, 50-75. The M2 has the classic style and the simplest, non-distracting framelines that come up alone as 35 50 90. An old M2 or M4-P will do most everything you seem to desire; the M3 is useless for 35s which makes it rather lame for a one camera kit unless you only shoot 50s and longer. Don't fret about the differences in film loading or build quality; these are non sequitur topics.

Use the M-mount group to help you find the best lens for your vision.

FWIW, I'd spend less on an old M2 and meter, and more on the lens.

What would be the good meter device to pair with the M2? Is it not hard to use an external metering device?

[Merkin]

I really need to have a fast lens for weddings. I think f2 would be great for me. I've seen many m4-p on the used market lately - $600 -$700 etc... and looks good to me. Im just concerned with the metering.

I don't have any idea if its hard to use an external metering device.

If you don't mind me asking a noob question - whats sunny 16?

Is M6 that good as compared to M4-P?

About the bessa. I saw one in the classifieds selling a bessa R. Is it good? Im thinking of getting it and buy some good lenses instead of getting an R3A /M which i can save almost $300. Well, bout the flash, its not yet part of my plan since ive heard that RF is really good in low light.

About my favorite photographer. HIs using 4x M6TTL with high-end leica lenses not to mention the famous noctx 1:1. He uses Tri-X and some colord 65 films.

What would be the good meter device to pair with the M2? Is it not hard to use an external metering device?

Answers to these questions, albeit out of order-

The M6 is basically an M4-P with a built in light meter.

Using a handheld/external meter is not difficult, but it is slow compared to using a built in meter. You take the reading, which will often be given as an EV (exposure value) number. You then convert that number in to the desired combination of ISO, f-stop, and shutter speed. You set your camera to those values, compose, focus, and shoot. There are several different kinds of light meter, including incident meters, reflected meters, and spot meters, or combinations thereof. Each style of metering is done differently.

The sunny 16 rule is one method of determining your exposure without a light meter of any sort. The rule states that when shooting an object that is 18% grey (also known as middle grey or zone 5) in full sun on a bright day, if you set your aperture to f/16, and set your shutter speed to match your film speed as closely as possible (1/125 for ISO 100, 1/500 for ISO 400, etc), your exposure will be at least passably correct.

The Bessa R does not use the Leica M mount, it uses the LTM (Leica Thread Mount, also known as screw mount) mount. You can get adapters to use LTM mount lenses perfectly on M mount cameras, but you cannot put M mount lenses on LTM camera bodies. The R2, R3, and R4 cameras, on the other hand, do use the M mount, just like the Leica M series. There are a lot of people who absolutely love LTM cameras, with good reason, but from what you have said, M mount is the way you want to go, especially since you would be able to use any LTM lens on whatever M mount camera.

Moving on to the difficult bit- weddings.

One thing you need to realize is that you will not be able to just jump in with a leica or bessa and shoot weddings like a pro, ESPECIALLY if you get an unmetered body. Leicas are only fast operating cameras for people who have had a LOT of practice with them. The reason that Leicas have a reputation for being fast operating cameras is that when they first came out in the thirties, they were very fast cameras to use, compared to everything else that was on the market at the time. (note that I am referring here to the user's speed in operating the camera, not the speed of the lens.) These days, however, they are actually rather slow to use, especially for relative newbies to rangefinder cameras. For the first month or two, for you to make a well metered, well focused shot with an unmetered rangefinder camera will take you at least a minute. At small apertures like f11 or f16, exactly precise focus isn't as important because you have enough depth of field to cover slight errors, but at small apertures like f2.8, f2, and f1.4, precise focus is CRITICAL, and precise rangefinder focusing takes a good bit of practice. Shooting in low light makes rangefinder focusing even more difficult, because the focusing patch is more dim. Rangefinders are known for being good in low light because they don't have a mirror that flaps like a SLR does, but this only buys you a stop or two of slower shutter speed. They are only as good in low light, however, as your ability to focus them accurately in low light. If you dive straight in to a wedding with a rangefinder camera without lots of practice with it, you are going to miss a LOT of shots. The vast majority of wedding photographers these days use DSLRs (or SLRs in general) for a reason- they are faster to operate. Sure, there are plenty of people out there who have been using rangefinder cameras for years (Al Kaplan, for instance) who could run circles around any SLR user in the speed of operation department, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Also, and as with many of the things I have said, there are plenty of people who would disagree with me, but wanting to buy a camera just because it is the same camera a favorite photographer of yours uses is, in my opinion, a poor reason to choose a camera. It is much more important to find equipment that suits your own unique personal style of photography, be it large format, a rangefinder, an slr, or a toy camera. The camera does not make the photographer a superstar, the superstar photographer makes the camera sit up and beg.

Spend some time considering the Leica R system- it uses the same fantastic lens designs as the leica rangefinders, but it is an SLR camera system that seems like it would be better suited to your current skill level. R system equipment is also significantly cheaper than M system equipment. Whatever camera you get, I wholeheartedly recommend that you get one with a built in meter.

[wgerrard]

I want to second Markin's comment. Choose a camera that's right for you. Don't get caught up in the romance of imitating someone else. If that turns out to be a rangefinder, that's fine. But, try to be rational about it. (Like I should talk.) Cameras can be an expensive way to discover one's own preferences.

I like rangefinders for mundane, but important, reasons. They're smaller and lighter. Their lenses are smaller and lighter. That's important to me because I really hate carrying stuff around. If a camera is too heavy or too cumbersome for me to use a wrist strap and carry it around for a few hours in my right hand, I won't use it. My eyes seem a better match for RF focusing, too. I also use an Olympus OM-2N, an SLR that's almost exactly the same size as a Bessa. (As Merkin notes, low light focusing can be problematic, but then it's problematic with an SLR. It's dark, after all.)

If I was doing weddings for money, I'd buy a good DSLR, put it on automatic with a fat memory card, turn off all sounds, and shoot up a storm, figuring that 90 percent of the pictures would be OK. I'm taking pictures for the bride and groom not for me. Just because I like old-fashioned manual focus cameras and figuring out exposure on my own doesn't mean that the automatic focusing and metering systems in today's DSLR's are not very capable and useful. In the seconds that I'm setting exposure and focusing with a rangefinder, the other guy has rattled off a couple dozen shots with his DSLR. Guess who stands a better chance of making the customers happy?

[snausages]

Multi, do you have access to any sort of light meter? Even if you used a small camera as a meter, it might be an informative exercise to set your DSLR to manual everything and then meter with something else. Then you can get a feel for that kind of workflow and judge if it's for you.

[Kevin]

I'm shifting to RF coming from dslrdom. Been reading RF stuffs and somehow have an idea how RF works. Im thinking of getting bessa R3M but I really really like leica and wanted to get one as much as possible. But my prob is, I can only afford to spend $1200 - $1500. With this budget, do you think I can get a leica with 35-50mm fast lens? I don't mind using voigt lens on leica body.

Have you already considered buying a used R-D1 and a fast 35mm lens, such as the Nokton 35mm f/1.4?

[Bobonli]

Why don't you try borrowing or renting a RF before unholstering your Visa card?

If you're coming from DSLR land, there's going to be a bunch of ergonomic issues that you should be aware of before purchasing. I just "test drove" an M6 for a week and found:

1) Holding it was very different from holding a DSLR. Even though I have small hands, the M6 did not feel natural in my hand after decades of using SLR/DSLR.

2) The lens is arranged differently from my Nikkors, so I had to learn where to find the aperture ring etc

3) The lens is tiny compare to SLR lens. Once again, an ergonomic issue you must adapt to

4) As others have mentioned a RF is not the tool for fast action shots like sports and weddings where you need to focus and meter very quickly. Maybe for someone with years of practice, but not for a beginner.

Can one adapt to these differences? Yes. The question is whether you want to or need to to get the particular mission accomplished.

If you're not familiar with Sunny 16.......well not to be rude but that's pretty rudimentary. Completely understandable, however, since it's not essential knowledge to operate a DSLR. It is essential for a manual camera; otherwise, you'll be wasting a lot of film since you need to have some basis for knowing whether your meter is misleading you.

I'm a big fan of Mike (Nick) Nichols of Nat Geo. He speaks favorably of RFs in this month's Outside magazine. However, that would not motivate me to buy one without trying it out for myself.

[coelacanth]

Multi, you mentioned you just ordered a Kiev 4. I think (as long as you've got a GOOD copy) that will give you some idea how RF works and if it's the right type of camera. (If you get a bad copy, your first experience with RF camera would a bad one, but don't judge the whole RF cameras based on that!)

I'd suggest buying an used Bessa or a Leica you can comfortably afford, try it for a month or 10 - 20 rolls, then do one of the following: 1) keep it, 2) sell and buy the RF camera you really like to have, 3) sell and get back to your DSLR system.

Thankfully, unlike cutting edge digital SLRs, used film RF cameras won't lose their values much over time. So if you decide to sell it after a month or two, it is likely that you are not losing any money. If you want to get your money back quickly, sell it a bit cheaper than the price you paid, and call the difference the "rental" fee. So when I said "you can afford," that actually means the money you don't need to see for a month or two, not losing in the "gamble" over this RF tryout.

That's what I did, and I'm now madly in love with RF cameras after being SLR user for 15 years. (well, I still love my OM, though)

[multivitamins]

Answers to these questions, albeit out of order-

The M6 is basically an M4-P with a built in light meter.

Using a handheld/external meter is not difficult, but it is slow compared to using a built in meter. You take the reading, which will often be given as an EV (exposure value) number. You then convert that number in to the desired combination of ISO, f-stop, and shutter speed. You set your camera to those values, compose, focus, and shoot. There are several different kinds of light meter, including incident meters, reflected meters, and spot meters, or combinations thereof. Each style of metering is done differently.

The sunny 16 rule is one method of determining your exposure without a light meter of any sort. The rule states that when shooting an object that is 18% grey (also known as middle grey or zone 5) in full sun on a bright day, if you set your aperture to f/16, and set your shutter speed to match your film speed as closely as possible (1/125 for ISO 100, 1/500 for ISO 400, etc), your exposure will be at least passably correct.

The Bessa R does not use the Leica M mount, it uses the LTM (Leica Thread Mount, also known as screw mount) mount. You can get adapters to use LTM mount lenses perfectly on M mount cameras, but you cannot put M mount lenses on LTM camera bodies. The R2, R3, and R4 cameras, on the other hand, do use the M mount, just like the Leica M series. There are a lot of people who absolutely love LTM cameras, with good reason, but from what you have said, M mount is the way you want to go, especially since you would be able to use any LTM lens on whatever M mount camera.

Moving on to the difficult bit- weddings.

One thing you need to realize is that you will not be able to just jump in with a leica or bessa and shoot weddings like a pro, ESPECIALLY if you get an unmetered body. Leicas are only fast operating cameras for people who have had a LOT of practice with them. The reason that Leicas have a reputation for being fast operating cameras is that when they first came out in the thirties, they were very fast cameras to use, compared to everything else that was on the market at the time. (note that I am referring here to the user's speed in operating the camera, not the speed of the lens.) These days, however, they are actually rather slow to use, especially for relative newbies to rangefinder cameras. For the first month or two, for you to make a well metered, well focused shot with an unmetered rangefinder camera will take you at least a minute. At small apertures like f11 or f16, exactly precise focus isn't as important because you have enough depth of field to cover slight errors, but at small apertures like f2.8, f2, and f1.4, precise focus is CRITICAL, and precise rangefinder focusing takes a good bit of practice. Shooting in low light makes rangefinder focusing even more difficult, because the focusing patch is more dim. Rangefinders are known for being good in low light because they don't have a mirror that flaps like a SLR does, but this only buys you a stop or two of slower shutter speed. They are only as good in low light, however, as your ability to focus them accurately in low light. If you dive straight in to a wedding with a rangefinder camera without lots of practice with it, you are going to miss a LOT of shots. The vast majority of wedding photographers these days use DSLRs (or SLRs in general) for a reason- they are faster to operate. Sure, there are plenty of people out there who have been using rangefinder cameras for years (Al Kaplan, for instance) who could run circles around any SLR user in the speed of operation department, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Also, and as with many of the things I have said, there are plenty of people who would disagree with me, but wanting to buy a camera just because it is the same camera a favorite photographer of yours uses is, in my opinion, a poor reason to choose a camera. It is much more important to find equipment that suits your own unique personal style of photography, be it large format, a rangefinder, an slr, or a toy camera. The camera does not make the photographer a superstar, the superstar photographer makes the camera sit up and beg.

Spend some time considering the Leica R system- it uses the same fantastic lens designs as the leica rangefinders, but it is an SLR camera system that seems like it would be better suited to your current skill level. R system equipment is also significantly cheaper than M system equipment. Whatever camera you get, I wholeheartedly recommend that you get one with a built in meter.

Hi, first of all thanks for the informative comments. I think I should consider getting a body with M mount rather than the LTM.

About wedding. Yes, Its pretty hard to shoot wedding when you don't have the right gears. I've done I think 8 weddings now and I think DSLR suits very well... About getting into RF... Actually, its not my favorite photographer that influenced me to go fully RF. He influenced me to get a leica. hehe.. The main reason that pushed me to get an RF is I want something new. I want a new era in my passion.

Well, its a personal thing. It may be more practical and easier to use DSLR. But sometimes I just really want something to satisfy my craving for photographs. And I think RF will give me more satisfying pictures as compared to DSLR. Because using RF I need to work more. I need to think more. I need to compose accurately as much as possible since I only have 24 or 36 shots left. It may not be as sharp as my 70-200 L lens, but Its more satisfying.
I think I will learn more of the basics in RF. Its just me...

Thanks for the comment. Now I need to learn how to use the Sunny 16.

[multivitamins]

I want to second Markin's comment. Choose a camera that's right for you. Don't get caught up in the romance of imitating someone else. If that turns out to be a rangefinder, that's fine. But, try to be rational about it. (Like I should talk.) Cameras can be an expensive way to discover one's own preferences.

I like rangefinders for mundane, but important, reasons. They're smaller and lighter. Their lenses are smaller and lighter. That's important to me because I really hate carrying stuff around. If a camera is too heavy or too cumbersome for me to use a wrist strap and carry it around for a few hours in my right hand, I won't use it. My eyes seem a better match for RF focusing, too. I also use an Olympus OM-2N, an SLR that's almost exactly the same size as a Bessa. (As Merkin notes, low light focusing can be problematic, but then it's problematic with an SLR. It's dark, after all.)

If I was doing weddings for money, I'd buy a good DSLR, put it on automatic with a fat memory card, turn off all sounds, and shoot up a storm, figuring that 90 percent of the pictures would be OK. I'm taking pictures for the bride and groom not for me. Just because I like old-fashioned manual focus cameras and figuring out exposure on my own doesn't mean that the automatic focusing and metering systems in today's DSLR's are not very capable and useful. In the seconds that I'm setting exposure and focusing with a rangefinder, the other guy has rattled off a couple dozen shots with his DSLR. Guess who stands a better chance of making the customers happy?

Hi gerrard.

My weekend/part-time job is an events photographer. I also do some portraits and now exploring fashion photography. And Im being paid.

Its just me. I do like DSLR because its more practical and easy to use. Yes, I am confident that I can get good pictures out of it. The same thing I want to do with RF. I want to take the risk to explore more about photography. I have nothing against DSLR. Its just me. I like trying out things. I want something different. I still can borrow a good DSLR for my part-time job. I just feel that I need something new now to satisfy cravings.

Thanks for the comment. I really like this forum. People do help you here...

[multivitamins]

Multi, do you have access to any sort of light meter? Even if you used a small camera as a meter, it might be an informative exercise to set your DSLR to manual everything and then meter with something else. Then you can get a feel for that kind of workflow and judge if it's for you.

Yes. I use full manual metering with my DSLR. I just don't know how to use an external light meter. Kinda different. I purchased one from ebay for $2 and see it myself. I'll let you know once I get it. Its kinda vintage. It has GOST and some shutter speed numbers. i think its hard to use because its cheap.

[multivitamins]

Have you already considered buying a used R-D1 and a fast 35mm lens, such as the Nokton 35mm f/1.4?

Not thinking of getting a digital RF yet. I want to learn how to develop and print some films myself.

[multivitamins]

Why don't you try borrowing or renting a RF before unholstering your Visa card?

If you're coming from DSLR land, there's going to be a bunch of ergonomic issues that you should be aware of before purchasing. I just "test drove" an M6 for a week and found:

1) Holding it was very different from holding a DSLR. Even though I have small hands, the M6 did not feel natural in my hand after decades of using SLR/DSLR.

2) The lens is arranged differently from my Nikkors, so I had to learn where to find the aperture ring etc

3) The lens is tiny compare to SLR lens. Once again, an ergonomic issue you must adapt to

4) As others have mentioned a RF is not the tool for fast action shots like sports and weddings where you need to focus and meter very quickly. Maybe for someone with years of practice, but not for a beginner.

Can one adapt to these differences? Yes. The question is whether you want to or need to to get the particular mission accomplished.

If you're not familiar with Sunny 16.......well not to be rude but that's pretty rudimentary. Completely understandable, however, since it's not essential knowledge to operate a DSLR. It is essential for a manual camera; otherwise, you'll be wasting a lot of film since you need to have some basis for knowing whether your meter is misleading you.

I'm a big fan of Mike (Nick) Nichols of Nat Geo. He speaks favorably of RFs in this month's Outside magazine. However, that would not motivate me to buy one without trying it out for myself.


Thanks for sharing your experience with RF. I expect that RF is a new world.

I started digital thats why I never mind knowing the Sunny 16 since my camera has a built in meter. I guess I need to practice it now. I'll just buy a bessa first and try it for a few months. lets see what will happen. If I like it, I'll upgrade. If I don't - I'll sell it.

Thanks.


Multi, you mentioned you just ordered a Kiev 4. I think (as long as you've got a GOOD copy) that will give you some idea how RF works and if it's the right type of camera. (If you get a bad copy, your first experience with RF camera would a bad one, but don't judge the whole RF cameras based on that!)

I'd suggest buying an used Bessa or a Leica you can comfortably afford, try it for a month or 10 - 20 rolls, then do one of the following: 1) keep it, 2) sell and buy the RF camera you really like to have, 3) sell and get back to your DSLR system.

Thankfully, unlike cutting edge digital SLRs, used film RF cameras won't lose their values much over time. So if you decide to sell it after a month or two, it is likely that you are not losing any money. If you want to get your money back quickly, sell it a bit cheaper than the price you paid, and call the difference the "rental" fee. So when I said "you can afford," that actually means the money you don't need to see for a month or two, not losing in the "gamble" over this RF tryout.

That's what I did, and I'm now madly in love with RF cameras after being SLR user for 15 years. (well, I still love my OM, though)

Hi,

I think I'll get a cheap one first, like bessa and a lens like 35 or 40 or 50. I'll play with it for a month or two. And lets see what happens. Im really tempted now to get a body without a built it meter . It will force me to learn more, especially the sunny 16.

Hopefully I can get my kiev 4 this week. Hopefully it doesnt have any probs. I got it really cheap....

[katcons]

Hi, just my two cents (aka how I got bitten by the RF Bug). :)

My take on it: try several sorts of [inexpensive] gear before plunging for the really VISA-busting purchases.

I'm relatively new to film photography, being into it for a year. For around 10 months, I have been using rangefinders mostly for going to the streets, and even up to portraits if I get to be really lucky to be close enough to the subject.

The following are my RFs, in order of purchase/ gifting:

- Yashica Electro 35GSN (Aug'08)
- Konica C35 (May'09)
- Kiev 4 (Jul'09)
- Kodak Retina IIc (Jul'09)
- Leica IIIf (Aug'09)

I started with the "basic" metered RF first, and felt how RFs work, focusing, adjusting, and just get the feel of things. The Konica C35 was a smaller and lighter alternative, but still had automatic functions.

When I got used to it, I got the Kiev 4 so I can have more control over the camera. The thing is built like a tank, and I loved it. It also inspired me to take to heart exposure settings, and using my palm as an improvised light meter.

The Kodak Retina IIc is very compact, and can be easily put into my girlie bag when I don't feel like lugging along my Fastpack. IMO, it's also great in low light.

Then, the IIIf! My birthday gift to myself, haha. It's so light (compared to my other cameras) and compact, especially with the collapsible lenses. I'm using an Elmar and J3 on it now, with the J12, industars, and helios on their way from Alex Photo.

For me, each camera has its specific purpose, and I'm very comfortable with this setup. Once you get the Kiev, I would recommend doing some street photography with it. Will it come with the Jupiter 8?

Hoping it arrives soon.

[multivitamins]

Hi, just my two cents (aka how I got bitten by the RF Bug). :)

My take on it: try several sorts of [inexpensive] gear before plunging for the really VISA-busting purchases.

I'm relatively new to film photography, being into it for a year. For around 10 months, I have been using rangefinders mostly for going to the streets, and even up to portraits if I get to be really lucky to be close enough to the subject.

The following are my RFs, in order of purchase/ gifting:

- Yashica Electro 35GSN (Aug'08)
- Konica C35 (May'09)
- Kiev 4 (Jul'09)
- Kodak Retina IIc (Jul'09)
- Leica IIIf (Aug'09)

I started with the "basic" metered RF first, and felt how RFs work, focusing, adjusting, and just get the feel of things. The Konica C35 was a smaller and lighter alternative, but still had automatic functions.

When I got used to it, I got the Kiev 4 so I can have more control over the camera. The thing is built like a tank, and I loved it. It also inspired me to take to heart exposure settings, and using my palm as an improvised light meter.

The Kodak Retina IIc is very compact, and can be easily put into my girlie bag when I don't feel like lugging along my Fastpack. IMO, it's also great in low light.

Then, the IIIf! My birthday gift to myself, haha. It's so light (compared to my other cameras) and compact, especially with the collapsible lenses. I'm using an Elmar and J3 on it now, with the J12, industars, and helios on their way from Alex Photo.

For me, each camera has its specific purpose, and I'm very comfortable with this setup. Once you get the Kiev, I would recommend doing some street photography with it. Will it come with the Jupiter 8?

Hoping it arrives soon.

yes. Its a Kit. kiev 4 and jupiter 8. However I don't know if it really works coz I got it really cheap. Plus, it includes a vintage meter something.

Well, I think I'll be getting a cheap one first like bessa. Take a sip and see if I like the taste.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[David Hughes]

Hi, first of all thanks for the informative comments. I think I should consider getting a body with M mount rather than the LTM.

About wedding. Yes, Its pretty hard to shoot wedding when you don't have the right gears. I've done I think 8 weddings now and I think DSLR suits very well... About getting into RF... Actually, its not my favorite photographer that influenced me to go fully RF. He influenced me to get a leica. hehe.. The main reason that pushed me to get an RF is I want something new. I want a new era in my passion.

Well, its a personal thing. It may be more practical and easier to use DSLR. But sometimes I just really want something to satisfy my craving for photographs. And I think RF will give me more satisfying pictures as compared to DSLR. Because using RF I need to work more. I need to think more. I need to compose accurately as much as possible since I only have 24 or 36 shots left. It may not be as sharp as my 70-200 L lens, but Its more satisfying.
I think I will learn more of the basics in RF. Its just me...

Thanks for the comment. Now I need to learn how to use the Sunny 16.

Hi, If the important word is "passion" then we've gone right back to a Leica M2... Just expect a bit of culture shock and a lot of fun.

Regards, David

[shadowfox]

If you don't mind me asking a noob question - whats sunny 16?



Sunny-16 is an method to approximate exposure setting without the use of a light meter.

It's based on one known good setting: Set your shutter speed to the closest to your film ASA number, and set the aperture to f/16 when it is bright and sunny.

That's why it's called the Sunny-16.

The beauty of this method is that it's an offset system. You decide how much light is available and you offset the above "rule" to accommodate the light.

So for instance, in a shade of tall buildings, you'd use f/8 or f/5.6 instead of f/16 even though it's a bright and sunny day.

After you learn how to offset the settings based on the light, it'll become second nature and you'll be surprised how much that liberated you from having to use meters.

This works very well for C-41 and B&W film which have a good margin for exposure setting tolerance. Slide film will be more hit and miss unless you're in a situation where the lighting is constant.

Give it a try, to me, this is the preferable way to use TLR and rangefinder cameras :)

[coelacanth]

Multi,

There is a really nice looking M6 (with 0.85 finder) recently CLA'd and much better MP VF/RF upgrade by Sherry K. for pretty sweet price.

Just a heads up, no affiliation with the seller. I've talked with Mike over PM and he seems really nice guy though.

Update: Well, it's gone already. :p

[slungu]

I'm as pro-no-meter as most of the next guys, and I appreciate the silky tankness of the M3, but this I can't imagine a better camera for a sincere RF beginner (or even vet) than a modern Bessa. R2, R3, R4----M or A--doesn't matter. If these cameras didn't exist, they'd be the ones we'd be pining for. Solid construction, M-'patibility, features the M3 designer would have signed off on in a second had the technology existed at the time.....and cheap as bones (relatively speaking). There isn't a RF enthusiast on the planet who has only one camera, and you (multivitamin) won't be the first.
As for lenses...go with whatever, but I think anybody will find that modern Japanese lenses compare favorably-PLUS with the older German ones, and cost less. The Leica lure will always be there, Leicas will always be there, but for a starter kind (drumroll): Any modern Bessa, and a wide and normal Voigt lens, maybe even the 28/3.5 or 35/2.5 screwmounts with M-dapter (super cheap, super deals), and then a 50-something. I'd go with the LTM 50/2.5 again--it's under $300.
Anyway, just get into it. Don't turn into a Leica handwringer neo-connoisseur at this stage of the game. Get a Bessa, get shooting!

I am also just starting with the rangefinder business and I can only subscribe to the above. I got myself a Bessa R2 and a Voigtlander 90/3.5 because I just saw a great deal on that lens. Still looking for a good deal for a 35mm lens and eyeing a V35/3.5 or a very good deal on the ZM35/2.0 I plan to add a 21mm later on and maybe a 35 Nokton for low light athmospheric shots, but for now I am just going out with the Bessa and the 90mm looking for shots and getting used to the camera. I can not imagine regretting getting the Bessa, even if at some point I will get a Leica body, I simply want to take pictures.
Good luck and have fun

[Juan Valdenebro]

With your budget you can do it the best way from the beginning.

Get a nice M2 and the 35 1.2 Nokton, with a sekonic for incident and spot metering.

Cheers,

Juan