Leica M4 or M6 Classic? Please help

[agreenspan]

Hi everyone. I have an M8 camera, which I enjoy very much, and have just recently started using a HOLGA with 120 film (yes, a holga - I love it.) I am having so much fun developing my own film and scanning the negatives with my epson v700 scanner.
Since I'm having so much fun with film, and since I already have some lenses for my M8, I thought, why not get a used M film camera! i've narrowed it down to the M4 and M6 classic. I know that the M6 has a built in meter, but I could use a VCII meter on the M4, and even get used to the challenge of not using a meter. From what I understand, there were much less M4's made, and they were made better than the M6 - "the last of the 'classic' Leica Ms", so I'm assuming that they will hold their value better than the M6 over time, since they are more sought by collectors?....
i think it would be nice to have something "special" - a work of mechanical art, like the M4...... or, am I wrong, and an M6 will feel just as nice, and will hold its value just as well? By the way, I'm concerned about value because I would be buying this camera with money that I should not be spending .... i.e. from my "rainy day" fund.:)
Thanks,
Stephen.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

The M6 is the one to get if you need a meter or if you need 28mm framelines or 75mm framelines, because the M6 has those, while the M4 does not. M4 viewfinder has 35, 50, 90, and 135mm frames, while the M6 has 28, 35, 50, 75, 90, and 135mm frames.

[bhop73]

I chose the M6 because I wanted a meter and 28mm lines.

[rover]

There are some nice M4s in the classifieds. Grab one and don't look back.

[agreenspan]

Thanks, I do have a 28mm lens and a 75mm lens. I do not have a 90mm. I figured i would flick up the 90 frame and compensate a little at the outer edge of the line - they are so close in size on the M8. For my 28, which I would use less on film - full frame - I have an external 28 finder that I use with my Ricoh GRII.

[rover]

Not to play favorites, but an M4 with M4-P framelines (that means with 28 and 75mm too),

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/18077/cat/1/limit/recent

[coelacanth]

I don't mean M6 is not as good as any other Ms, but I first had M6 classic HM (which was great), but switched to M4 because i really liked how it handled, uncluttered framelines, and I personally didn't care in-camera meter at all.

For example, M6's film advancing was smooth and nice, but M4's is just butterly, creamy, smoooooooth as any metal gearing can provide. :D And, while I say this is just personal preference, the M4 just felt much nicer overall in my hands. As you said, it is the last generation of hand-built M (until new MP), and I bet you can actually feel that.

I'm selling my M4. Why? Because I got an MP with simplified framelines (still don't care much of light meter though) and an M3. :p

I'm not pushing M4 over M6 because I'm selling one, but because I genuinely felt it was superior camera in use if don't need/like built-in light meter and like simpler framelines.

[Beemermark]

I've had an M4 since the early 80's / late 70's, Best M camera ever made.

Now having said that I bought an M7 when it came out, then the .58 M7 to use the 28 mm "real framelines" and my poor M4 sits on the shelf. However if you do buy an M4 get the MR-4 meter that was made for it.

[agreenspan]

Hmmm, Both Sherry Krauter and Dan Goldberg told me that none of those meters work any more, they are no longer accurate. The VCII is the way to go. Anyway, how much would it cost to put in M4-P framelines?

[agreenspan]

Would'nt the "whole finder" view give you an approximate 28 mm view anyway?

[coelacanth]

My understanding with newer Ms (4-2 and up) is that they had tighter framelines for 35mm and winder to squeeze 28mm line in? So yeah, I think the whole viewfinder should be pretty darn close to 28mm, too.

http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00U3mQ

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/discus_e/messages/2/114526.html

[agreenspan]

i guess what I'm trying to do is convince myself that even though I know that the M6 might be more convenient, and have everything I need, that it would be nice to have something "special" like the M4, and learn to put up with its quirks, and in return have something "enjoyable" to use and that I think will hold its $$$ value better.

[aizan]

i wouldn't buy either, since you already have an m8 and shouldn't be spending the money anyway. if you like shooting film, stick with the holga and other cheap thrills!

[MartinP]

Hmmm, Both Sherry Krauter and Dan Goldberg told me that none of those meters work any more, they are no longer accurate. The VCII is the way to go. Anyway, how much would it cost to put in M4-P framelines?

There were several versions of Leicameter. The oldest ones were the MC range and used selenium cells. Those are probably going to meet the description you quote above - they won't work accurately, if at all, after all this time.

However, there were also the MR meters which were electronic, powered by a mercury cell. I have one of these which works within 1/3 of a stop, compared to my recently calibrated Gossen, so I'd say there is no problem. For battery replacement use a zinc-air hearing-aid battery pushed in to a metal washer to bring it up to the diameter of the old mercury cells. When only one of the little air holes is uncovered, these cells seem to last many months.

The advantages of coupling with the shutter-speed dial and the easy to read needle make it very fast and more convenient to use, when compared to the CV meter. Like the CV meter, the Leicameter will also work fine in the hand too - it doesn't need to be on the camera - so this is convenient if there is something else in the accessory shoe.

Surprisingly, a clean and working MR meter is also much cheaper than the CV meter. Very odd.

[Florian1234]

I took a M4 due to the lower price and availability for me back in early 2008. But it somehow slows you down when changing light situations all the time. An internal meter would be a bit quicker I guess.

[coelacanth]

i guess what I'm trying to do is convince myself that even though I know that the M6 might be more convenient, and have everything I need, that it would be nice to have something "special" like the M4, and learn to put up with its quirks, and in return have something "enjoyable" to use and that I think will hold its $$$ value better.

I know what you mean. I didn't think too much for holding value better, but certainly "special" feeling towards M4 was a big factor for the jump. And i didn't look back at M6 at all. (M6 is a superb practical camera, though)

Another couple of pushes. You feel REAL GOOD holding and using a camera without a battery inside. :D And at least for b/w, I haven't missed exposure beyond saving due to lack of meter, any more than metered camera. In a 36 exp roll with day and night shots, I probably have a couple shots nearly blown white or blacked out because I just FORGOT to set exposure.

[agreenspan]

Thanks everyone for all your help. I'm going to look at the leica meters that run on batteries.

[35mmdelux]

Sekonic L-358 Flashmaster will do the trick. Forget the others.

[nome_alice]

i did buy a VC Meter II to use on my M3 and M4-P and it is very logical and easy to use but lately i've felt very liberated by shooting sunny 16 and am quite happy with my results so far (except for the few frames i get disasterously wrong haha!)

go M4-P

[maddoc]

I have a fully functional MR-4 meter, that I sometimes use with my M4-P. It was recalibrated so I can use 1.5V V625U (Varta) batteries, which are readily available.

The M4 is nice but not the last hand-build M Leica from Wetzlar, that would be the M5. All of them (including the M5) can have problems with prism-separating and frame-line delaminating. Also, the shutter-curtains of the M4 are a little prone to rip-off the shutter drum when the lubricants get dry. If you get a M4 be sure to have it properly serviced....

If you like and have 28mm and 75mm lenses, I would go for an M4-P or M6 (if you want the internal meter) but the M4-P (the model with the recessed windows) is the last Leica with the larger frame-lines for 50mm.

[Steve_F]

I had exactly the same decision - M4-P or M6 classic.
Ignoring my Nikon DSLR's, I've spent a lot of time with my Nikon FM3A using the built in meter as a guide, but setting everything manually and for that reason opted for an M6 classic. When it came to it I saw a 'Mint' boxed M6 TTL and bought that as it was just within budget. I'd let a couple of 'classics' slip through, fannying about on decisions and deposits.
Just got my first roll of slide film back and all the exposures are spot on. I love the 'two arrow and dot' meter in the M6.
All my practice is paying of as I'm finding nearly every shot I'm getting to within half-a-stop with my initial 'guess-timate' and then correcting accordingly.

RAW / DNG files had begun to make me lazy!

Steve.

[Fraser]

if you are already thinking of buying/wanting a meter just go for the M6.

[agreenspan]

Thanks everyone,
I actually had a chance to play with an M6, and it aint too shabby. It may not be carved by elves out of a solid block of gold like the M4/3/2, but it seems very nicely made, and I'm impressed.

[kemal_mumcu]

Try holding an M4 then. Go for what your heart tugs you toward. In some ways, the M4 will be quite a contrast in handling and flow where the M6 would be more similar to your M8. Do you want 'like' or 'opposite'?

[agreenspan]

Do you think my 75mm lens would work ok with the 90mm framelines and mentally adjusting a bit?