View Full Version : POLL : The BEST enlarging paper is...
Here we have an exercise in group think...
Antarctican penguin hair paper is the best, hands down.
(Oh and RC VC for contact sheets :p )
Honu-Hugger
06-19-2005, 10:29
Premium Kodak paper...time to buy another freezer.
Gabriel M.A.
06-19-2005, 10:46
Ilford and AGFA together in two choices? Hmm.
Ilford Cooltone Multigraded, in general are very good.
For 'regular' (ie. no special effects w/ toners, lith dev., bleaching) printing: Agfa Multicontrast Classic and Premium - real deep blacks, real crips highlights, very punchy, IMHO leagues above Ilford MGIV (I'm probably one of very few people who does not like that paper at all...)
For lith printing: Foma Fomatone MG (in FB and RC versions) - really easy to work with in lith developers, very colorful (reds, oranges, gold tones), relatively little blocking up of shadows & fine grain (fro lith prints).
For toning in gold (-> blueish tones) or selenium (-> brownish/red tones): Forte Polywarmtone.
Roman
Are we serious here? What makes a paper good to you?
Ilford's fibre multigrade neutral paper offers the best shadow gradation I've seen anyplace. The blacks are quite greenish, though, and toning is only so effective on it. Also, the paper shows nice clothlike texture. But the emulsion cracks so easily when dry, you've got to be oh so careful. And it's only available in full gloss.
I never tried Agfa's papers. No comment.
Same for Kodak, though most people say no loss.
Seagull's fiber VC neutral paper is very similar to Ilford's. A little whiter whites, a little blacker blacks, otherwise similar.
Seagull's fiber graded neutral paper is gorgeous except for the sky blue whites. But who wants to fool with graded papers? Not me.
RC paper is for the birds in my eyes. The best I've seen is only a little better looking than the best inkjet materials, and it tones like my car flies.
My favorite paper? Forte Fiber neutral semi-matte VC. No, the blacks won't separate as well as Ilford's, but they're black. Really black for non gloss paper. And the whites are closer to white than anything else I've seen, maybe just a smidge creamy. You've got to be careful with selenium, you can end up purple if you're not careful. Also, doesn't seem to respond to contrast filters as well as most. Figure you've got grades 1-4, not 00-5. And use Dektol. Ilford's MG developer will turn this stuff a blue green that's not even artsy.
So how could we have missed Forte in the poll???????????????????
The whole range ilford multi grade warmtone papers is very good
I've had very good results with different Ilford / Kentmere / Fotospeed VC papers. Ilford is thinner than some but produces fine images. It's also happier than some in a weaker (or older) developer solution.
traveller
10-03-2006, 08:17
How about Adox FB and RC?
Fomatone MG and Polycoldtone (not Polywarm). I really like Polycold, only mine is all but gone and it's not made anymore. Pity.
different images suit different papers as we all know, kentmere, ilford and Forte. (Anyway never mind which brand, I try to use FB for my prints as they seem to sit "in" the paper rather than "on" it as they do with VC)
Harry Lime
10-03-2006, 11:59
I think Agfa Classic Fiber was just about the best around, but now of course it's dead, except for what's still in the pipeline. This was my standard paper and I will really miss it, once my stash is gone.
Azo of course is a whole different animal and probably produces the best results of any paper, but unfortunately it is for contact printing only. (I've heard that there was an attempt to use it with an enlarger, but I'm not sure what came of that.)
So, I supposed that leaves us with Ilford's top of the line fiber papers, which are extremely popular with professional printers.
The best all rouder IMO was Agfa MCC :(
Neutral enough to be neutral but could pass as warm in the right dev.
Great consistency and quality control.
Loads of image depth
Just printed right!
Successor?........Fotospeed Legacy.
I love(ed) Oriental Seagul but the last few lots I had seemd lower in contrast and generally lacking (could have been sitting in a warehouse for 5 years I spose!)
Agfa (RIP) MC Classic 111 fiber is still in the pipeline at Freestylephoto.biz. I hear that Fomabrom BC FB Variant 111 is pretty close but will wait to order until my Agfa stock runs out.
David Goldfarb
10-11-2006, 18:38
Azo is generally considered a contact paper, not an enlarging paper, unless you've got a high-powered Azo enlarger.
My personal favorite for enlargements has been sold under various labels--Efke Emaks graded, Cachet Expo RF, Maco Expo RF, J&C Exposition graded, and now J&C Nuance graded.
All the premium papers are very capable these days, and it's a matter of taste. The thing to do is buy a bunch of 25-sheet packs and make a file of reference prints, printing the same neg (or a few negs) with each paper.
Agfa was mounds-pounds, sad it's gone. Of existing stock, I like Forte's warmtone and Oriental for cold/neutral. Both really require selenium IMO to reach their full potential. Bergger is also looking pretty excellent based upon a small few prints I did - I'll have to experiment further when time permits. Oriental really nails it for me for colder toned printing, but my favorite look is that slightly warm, not obviously warmtone paper. Forte is great, but man - Agfa really had something else there.
Can we all agree on this?
"The best paper is the one you actually use."
nikon_sam
09-04-2007, 12:56
Can we all agree on this?
"The best paper is the one you actually use."
The one that best fits the neg...;)
(Is that what you meant???)
Can we all agree on this?
"The best paper is the one you actually use."
Isn't the best paper the paper that's most suited for the negative in case and the print in mind?
My happiest days were with the extinct Agfa Brovira.
I was thinking even simpler than 'the best for the paricular negative'... What I meant was that the best paper is the one you actually expose and develop, as opposed to the one you thougt about and then never printed.
I've gotten along REALLY well with just two papers; Ilford RC for tests, contact sheets, etc. and Forte MG Fiber for 'real pictures'. Toning varies a bit depending on the subject matter.
I'm still running along on paper I had before Forte died, but soon it'll be time to find a replacement. Kentmere is sounding interesting lately.
ChrisPlatt
09-06-2007, 00:43
Ilford MG IV RC Pearl is a great everyday paper.
Chris
pesphoto
09-06-2007, 06:58
Ilford MG IV RC Pearl is a great everyday paper.
Chris
Agree, it was really all I ever used until i discovered Ilford MG Fiber papers(glossy). I would never use glossy RC paper.
drewbarb
09-06-2007, 07:32
My current standard for fiber paper is Oriental. I can't even begin to think about all the papers I have loved which are now dead- including Azo and Forte, which are in the poll! Ilford Gallerie Matte was my favorite for toning, but they don't make grade 1 anymore, such a shame. Brovira, we hardly knew ye, yet I could have been happy for the rest of my life with always a few more sheets in the box. Agfa Multicontrast Classic was excellent, too, and another one I'll miss. Then there's Ektalure....sigh.
Recently I've been trying a few new papers, and I'm confident I'll find some things that I like, but it is alarming the extent to which great materials have disappeared.
Photo paper is like beer, the one you have at hand is good.
Bill
Tuolumne
09-06-2007, 09:49
Kodak Endura Mettalic
/T
Zone VI Brilliant was brilliant. Other than that, Gallerie, Ilfobrom graded. I never used enough Ilfomar to be as addicted to it as some were, so can't mourn its passing these 30+ years later.
sepiareverb
09-06-2007, 17:14
Ilford MGWA Fiber glossy is perhaps the best I use these days, with the Seagull VC Fiber glossy a close if different second.
I came to VC papers for my own prints very late- Seagull G and Portrigia were my main papers for years and years, I only used VC for commercial printing, and most of that was RC. When the Portrigia ran out I moved onto Agfa Insignia, which was a really wonderful paper in it's own right. Printed a huge body of work on 2024 Insignia from 810 negatives, fussing with developer dilutions, additives and times to fine-tune contrast- something in some perverted sense I'll admit I miss sometimes. I'll still pour a little Benzotriazole or Bromide into the developer tray, but these days it's only for color change. But VC paper has really come a long way, the ILMGWA near perfect for me, except for it's propensity to overtone in selenium a little too easily- I've been caught more than a few times by this. For cold-tone printing nothing beats the old graded Seagull G- that 80's emulsion (remember the blue boxes?) had a color, depth, luminosity and surface that nothing these days can touch. The current VC Seagull is a fine paper, don't get me wrong, but that old G was, for me, the nines.
I've tried most of the current fiber papers- when Agfa discontinued Insignia I was only about 2/3 of the way through this project and scrambled to find a good match. Thankfully my Agfa rep hunted down enough paper for me to finish, but in that scramble I tested everything I could find. I like the FOMA warmtone paper on the creamy base- it is a pretty close match for Portrigia in many ways (again not in surface), developed in Selectol with some extra Bromide I can get a very nice greenish tone out of it. I'm using this for some of the prints of an empty grain elevator I rented for a month and a half last winter. Forte Fortezo was another beautiful one, especially so lightly toned in sepia. So many old papers missed in my darkroom.
One paper I really miss is SW Kodak Polyfiber in 8.5x11" size. That was my proofsheet paper, and seeing proofs on RC is just not nearly as satisfying, though the time savings in processing does make up for most of that.
As they say on airplanes (though much less so these days), "chicken or pasta?"
One paper I really miss is SW Kodak Polyfiber in 8.5x11" size. That was my proofsheet paper, and seeing proofs on RC is just not nearly as satisfying, though the time savings in processing does make up for most of that.
I never knew that size existed. I would have loved that size.
But I will say that when I switched to printing my proofs on the same paper as my final (fibre) paper, my work improved.
sepiareverb
11-16-2007, 17:57
8 1/2 x 11 is a great size for proofsheets if you use the Print File pages, as you can easily get the whole thing on the page- notes across the top or along the side included.
Something I just figured out after twenty some years of using these pages is to write the page number in large type. Then you can read it under the safelights! I suppose this exposes me as a true moron, having only figured this out about a month ago...
It was Sam up there who didn't realize this thread was started over 2 years ago but whatever... The last time I printed (quite a while back) Agfa Multicontrast Classic was the only paper I used. Now the paper side of Agfa is supposed to be gone but I did hear that Adox will be making Agfa MCC on the same production equipment but on a whiter base. I just did a bit of research and here's a link to the paper:
http://www.adox.de/ADOX_Papiere/Agfa/ADOX_MCC.html
Fotoimpex doesn't have the page translated to English yet but it essentially says that the paper is manufactured on original Agfa machines from Leverkusen and has a bit higher contrast than the original with a "clean white" base. I don't know if Fotoimpex has a US distributor for this paper yet but this is worth keeping an eye on. Beautiful paper...
Agfa Premium MCP 310 (glossy) and MCP 312 (semi-matt) are my resin coated variable contrast favorite paper. Agfa MCC 111 (glossy) is my favorite fiber base paper.
sniki
FallisPhoto
11-17-2007, 10:24
My current standard for fiber paper is Oriental. I can't even begin to think about all the papers I have loved which are now dead- including Azo and Forte, which are in the poll! Ilford Gallerie Matte was my favorite for toning, but they don't make grade 1 anymore, such a shame. Brovira, we hardly knew ye, yet I could have been happy for the rest of my life with always a few more sheets in the box. Agfa Multicontrast Classic was excellent, too, and another one I'll miss. Then there's Ektalure....sigh.
Recently I've been trying a few new papers, and I'm confident I'll find some things that I like, but it is alarming the extent to which great materials have disappeared.
I'm almost afraid to say what my current favorite is, because I've had a few others die on me too. I was using a lot of Vesta FB semimatte warmtone, for nudes, and Oriental Seagull in a luster finish for everything else. Thing is, they stopped making Oriental FB papers in anything but glossy finish, and I hate glossy paper. Vesta stopped making anything but inkjet paper. Tried several Ilford papers, but didn't like them. Ditto Kodak. Agfa made a pretty fair cool tone FB paper, but that's gone now. It isn't as good as the Oriental luster was, but I have kind of gotten used to Forte Polygrade V for the cool tone stuff. I haven't found a really good warmtone paper since Vesta disappeared. Every warmtone paper I've tried since then seems to be WAY too brown. The Vesta warmtone was not much more brown than their white paper, but it sepia toned beautifully and had a non-glossy finish, so there was no glare.
How about consensus on the following:
"The best paper is either no longer made, not on the list in the poll, or both".
Was it Edward Weston who complained that every time he found a paper he was happy with, it was discontinued? Film wasn't even "dieing" yet at that time...
My happiest days were with the extinct Agfa Brovira.
Yep, that and Zone VI Brilliant.
Sisyphus
03-04-2008, 09:43
They just don't make papers like they used to . . . I think we can all agree on this, and that AGFA had, by far, the best selection of papers that ever existed. Especially when Portriga had cadium in it--this was truly a fine paper indeed.
And f course the insignis and brovira--they even actually had a grad 6.
I have stored some boxes of graded 11x14 Insignia, not sure what to print on it or if it is still good.
Now a days for everything that I print, I use either graded fiber base seagull for the blacks and toning effects or Iford graded and multigrade.
I prefer the graded papers thought, they tend to have deeper blacks and brighter whites, and the gradation of the midtones are just exquisite.
I prefer to have AGFA back though . . .
Chris101
03-04-2008, 10:43
I mostly use Ilford MG RC, pearle finish for prints to look at. I use Ilford MG fiber paper for exhibition if I am printing larger than 8x10.
Of course I haven't darkroom printed in almost a year, and I don't have plans to until August.
For all the black and white darkroom users:
Agfa MCP and MCC will be back under the ADOX brand ! here is the link http://www.adox.de/index.html
I voted "I don't know" but really I used Kodak Polymax til it died, now I use Ilford MG RC Glossy. I tried the FB paper in glossy, and I like it, but my wife won't tolerate the wash times.
Vic
Quote- "For all the black and white darkroom users:
Agfa MCP and MCC will be back under the ADOX brand ! here is the link http://www.adox.de/index.html"
That will make quite a few people happy!
Now if I could get Forte back...
photobike
05-12-2008, 02:51
For years the only paper I used was Oriental FB. Several years ago the paper changed. I used Burgger FB it renders a look in my prints that remind me of the old Oriental. I have stashed some Agfa Portriga Rapid.
Roger Vadim
05-12-2008, 03:42
Fomabrom BC FB Variant 111
Almost as good as the defunct Agfa 111.
Really nice blacks, and a very "tactile" tone in the whites, a bit creamy, which is really nice - I don't like the clinical white of the Ilford papers personally.
But then - it's a personal choice, different styles, different papers...
For 'regular' (ie. no special effects w/ toners, lith dev., bleaching) printing: Agfa Multicontrast Classic and Premium - real deep blacks, real crips highlights, very punchy, IMHO leagues above Ilford MGIV (I'm probably one of very few people who does not like that paper at all...)
For lith printing: Foma Fomatone MG (in FB and RC versions) - really easy to work with in lith developers, very colorful (reds, oranges, gold tones), relatively little blocking up of shadows & fine grain (fro lith prints).
For toning in gold (-> blueish tones) or selenium (-> brownish/red tones): Forte Polywarmtone.
Roman
I agree and you are certainly not alone!
Although Ilford MG4 looks good wet, it almost always looks awful (IMO) dry...flat lifeless prints even when contrast is high. This is not always evident with a framed image in isolation, but next to an unframed prints off my favourite papers it is glaringly obvious.... I have some negs that print better on this than anything else, but that is normally only where I really need a much macro contrast as possible from a flat neg. IMO Oriental seagul (I still have the old stuff) and AGFA MCC are LEAGUES ahead. In particular I mourn the loss of Agfa MCC which conveyed a far greater richness every time compared to ilford MG. Hard to describe but side by side there really is no comparison. The MCC images have more depth, greater mid tone richness and a generally more agreable scale. I am beginning to like Kentmere Fineprint although it maxes out at about G 4 tops and so requires a more contrasty neg. In some regards it is like the MCC in that it produces a really pleasant gery scale full of contrast but without an unduly harsh overall result. I also like the surface when air dried. It is also excellent value for money compared to MG4. The MG4 surface texture is drab, drab, drab and unlike Finprint/MCC/OS does not dry with a pleasant sheen, but more off a dull off gloss. this is far less noticeable behind glass of course. I have probably printed over 150 sheets of MG4 in the last 2 months so I am not making this up! When I get into a groove with a batch of negs on MG4 (because I am using it up and will only buy it again when I need the contrast) and then switch over to one of my other papers, I frequently look at the prints on MG4 and just wish I had used something else.
I am also shocked at the new prices for Ilford FB WT!!! OMG! Double the price of Foma et al and not that great IMO, although preferable to the neatral MG4 as it seems to have slightly better depth. dont like the base colour though; kinda sickly pinky jaundiced hue. If they changed the base colour to something more neutral it would be far better IMO...something like MCC in fact! It does generate wonderful blacks tho and intensifies nicely in selenium.
One thing I really liked about OS is that you could take a genuinely underesposed print and juice it to hell in selenium. It would pick up so much density that the light and too bright print would actually be perfectly good and a fair match for the well exposed ones given only a taste of selnium for the blacks. The selenium really does hit the highlights hard too, given time. I have not been able to do this with any other paper to the same degree. Its kinda nice to leave a slighly, but critically underexposed print in the toner for 30 mins when I go for a run (afetr 5 mins or intermittent agitation) and come back to find, as if my magic, a pretty spot on print in the tray! not used the new stuff tho.
Forte PWT is now gone, bout Foma I hear has some good replacements. I am going to increase development of my negs and try to stick to Fineprint for all neutral/cold work, however.
I wish MG4 was in my subjective opinion 'better'but sadly it is not for me. It my least favourite of all the papers I have ever used. The difference is just as obvious comparing the RC versions of MCC (premium) and Ilford RC too. Night and day, sadly :( still, thank the heavens for Delta 100.
Cannot really vote for any one of the options in teh poll however, as for me, the best is a fairly scattered selection from various brands. I have a box of the Adox MC FB paper and cannot wait to try it. I think it is teh neatral paper and will be interested to see how it looks. At 280gsm, it certainly int Agfa MCC undetr the Adox banner. I think that must be labelled as something else. If this paper really does come back, it will go nicely along with the Fineprint.
FallisPhoto
05-12-2008, 18:50
They just don't make papers like they used to . . . I think we can all agree on this, and that AGFA had, by far, the best selection of papers that ever existed. Especially when Portriga had cadium in it--this was truly a fine paper indeed.
And f course the insignis and brovira--they even actually had a grad 6.
I have stored some boxes of graded 11x14 Insignia, not sure what to print on it or if it is still good.
Now a days for everything that I print, I use either graded fiber base seagull for the blacks and toning effects or Iford graded and multigrade.
I prefer the graded papers thought, they tend to have deeper blacks and brighter whites, and the gradation of the midtones are just exquisite.
I prefer to have AGFA back though . . .
Well, Agfa papers and the old formula Oriental Seagull graded papers (I really dislike their new stuff though). Those were good papers and I have yet to find anything that's as good as they were.
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