View Full Version : $6999 for the M9, what about M8 and M8.2 prices?
CameraQuest
09-09-2009, 08:01
Wow, $6999 for a USA M9. Most predictions were in the $7500 to $9000 range. Looks like Leica priced it right to increase sales. But of course $6999 is still a lot for a camera body, any camera body.
A lot of M8 and M8.2 owners will be trading up. So how much will used M8 and M8.2 prices fall over the next 3 months? It should be interesting, and a great time for many people to get into a digital M for the first time.
Stephen
Disaster_Area
09-09-2009, 08:05
I can't wait for all the deals to come rolling through the Classifieds when people start selling everything not nailed down to pick up an M9 ;) Not just used M8's... you can bet we'll be seeing all manor of bodies and lenses getting dumped.
Yup I'll be very interested in an attractively priced M8 :)
Double Negative
09-09-2009, 08:08
Not everyone is onboard for the gold rush... M8s will likely be cheaper, sure. But nobody's going to be giving them away.
digitalintrigue
09-09-2009, 08:08
How much would make it attractive? :)
-doomed-
09-09-2009, 08:08
as would I a well priced M8 would be a fantastic companion for my m3
At Meister Camera an M8.2 is 3195,-- Euro, including 20% VAT new.
SolaresLarrave
09-09-2009, 08:12
How long will the M9 last before getting outdated?
Must admit, though... the price isn't as outrageous as that of the Nikon D3X. Only twice (and a bit) more than the D700 body's.
I may think about it...
ZeissFan
09-09-2009, 08:13
Price of other gear only will drop sharply if you assume there is going to be a stampede of buyers for the M9.
There will be some, no doubt, and it will be fun once again to benefit from them as they "go digital."
Pricing seems to be about right. It's in line what Nikon and Canon ask for their top-of-the-line full-frame cameras. And this camera will be significantly less bulky than the massive 1DS and the D3 and even the D700. Plus, it's prettier too.
$1900 for a nice M8, my guess...
bluepenguin
09-09-2009, 08:14
I'm not giving up my M8.2 since 3K difference.
oh,,, did I mention that I got my M8.2 at 4K about 9 month ago?
Double Negative
09-09-2009, 08:16
Let's see, how much film can I buy for $7k... Hmmm... :p
Ronchnam
09-09-2009, 08:19
I can't wait for all the deals to come rolling through the Classifieds when people start selling everything not nailed down to pick up an M9 ;) Not just used M8's... you can bet we'll be seeing all manor of bodies and lenses getting dumped.
I'm not sure for the lenses. With the FF M9 I think a lot of people will rush on 35/50/75/90 and even 135.
Benjamin Marks
09-09-2009, 08:23
I think you are going to see a lot of stuff, not just M8's, being sold to build up the kitty for this sort of thing. And if it is a flood, supply and demand suggest that all used RF gear will become at least incrementally less expensive. To raise $7K, I would have to sell a lot of kit. For myself, I am planning on holding on to my M8.
Ben Marks
mabelsound
09-09-2009, 08:24
$1900 for a nice M8, my guess...
If it gets that low, I'll buy one for sure.
FWIW, I sold mine yesterday for $2500, on Amazon but that also seems to be the going rate on the Bay.
I would expect M8 prices to fall rapidly.
I might also sell my 35 'Lux ASPH since my normal lens on the MP is a 50 'Lux ASPH. I will definitely keep the 28mm Elmarit-M ASPH pancake for when absolute compactness is required.
$2000 for a used one would be fair.
$7000 isn't going to "increase" sales but there will be plenty of M9's sold.
There's lots and lots of folks out there with more than enough liquid capital to toss away :)
One thing I remember being told in the early days of digital (and it still, basically, holds true now) is that bodies will come and bodies will go. Invest heavily in EXCELLENT glass and you'll always be able to pick up good used bodies at a fraction of the cost of new.
M9 prices in 3 years - $3500 for a used one :D
Cheers,
Dave
Steve Ash
09-09-2009, 08:47
At Meister Camera an M8.2 is 3195,-- Euro, including 20% VAT new.
Jaap,
you got this wrong. A new M8 is 3195EUR at Meister Camera. A new M8.2 is still 4995EUR.
Regards
Steve
RF_newbie
09-09-2009, 08:52
Very nice deal here -
http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/pict/160361417986.jpg (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160361417986&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123)Leica Black Paint M8.2! New in Box! (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160361417986&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123)
I would have to sell a lot of kit to raise USD 7000 (or the EUR 4900 equivalent). The kit is in the signature, I'm not considering selling any of it. Some items took me a long time to save for, or to find.
My M8 sure isn't going for USD 1900. Like was said here, it works just as well today as it did last week or month. EUR 1900 would be more like it.
I am selling an M-Hexanon 50mm f1.2 though, which is a VERY nice lens on a FF camera. Any takers?:angel:
I can't wait for all the deals to come rolling through the Classifieds when people start selling everything not nailed down to pick up an M9 ;) Not just used M8's... you can bet we'll be seeing all manor of bodies and lenses getting dumped.
Probably see the whole Manor up for sale too.
I think I'd rather spend money on travel these days and go see things. Maybe Vietnam. Or the Seychelles.
wjlapier
09-09-2009, 09:11
Capital is like the tide. Comes and goes...
I'll await all the early adopters/testers opinions. But will eventually have one if it all pans out fine.
I should add, shooting the D700 has spoiled me and I'm not interested to go back to a cropper, so no M8 for me.
My nice M8 is in the classifieds right now for only 2200 without the thumbs up or 2300 with it. I think we aren't going to see prices much lower than this for a while now.
It seems that the three zeros 000 don't mean much anymore these days; 3k,4k,7k ... etc. We are talking about thousands of US Dollars, aren't we?
I am still "non-digital". So be it.
Have a good day.
Let's see, how much film can I buy for $7k... Hmmm... :p
About 20 000ft of Double XX.
bluepenguin
09-09-2009, 10:32
anybody selling upgarded m8 at 2k? I'm interested. :)
Jamie Pillers
09-09-2009, 10:41
It may be that the price difference between the 8 and the 9 is so great that, even if we see lots of them in the classifieds, the prices won't drop because at the moment the only alternative is $7K.
However, when someone like Nikon, Canon, Zeiss/Cosina, or Panasonic step up with a FFRF... THEN the prices of the 8 will definitely drop. I assume that's sometime off yet, but if the 9 sales take off, there's do doubt going to be a lot of interest at the other companies, don't you think? :-) !!
Wow, $6999 for a USA M9. Most predictions were in the $7500 to $9000 range. Looks like Leica priced it right to increase sales. But of course $6999 is still a lot for a camera body, any camera body.
A lot of M8 and M8.2 owners will be trading up. So how much will used M8 and M8.2 prices fall over the next 3 months? It should be interesting, and a great time for many people to get into a digital M for the first time.
Stephen
My predictions were far higher. $ 6,999 is very generous of Leica. Here in Norway a M9 will be 53.000 NOK with 20% VAT included. That will be $ 7,126 tax free, which will explain the long cues of Norwegians in front of B & H in New York in the weeks ahead. Buying a M9 tax free in NY and smuggle it into Norway would save them NOK 11.350. A flight ticket to and fro Oslo/New York, hotel and a Broadway show included is far less than that.
And the dollar is falling...
Americans that think that $ 6,999 is expensive for a M9 will experience the same as when M8 was launched; the M9 price will go up. It is obvious that, with a falling $, the $ 6,999 is not sustainable....
$1900 for a nice M8, my guess...
I concur.......
Tuolumne
09-09-2009, 10:54
How long will the M9 last before getting outdated?
Must admit, though... the price isn't as outrageous as that of the Nikon D3X. Only twice (and a bit) more than the D700 body's.
I may think about it...
Just about for ever. Think about it - what follow-on could possibly make people think their M9 was obsolete? It would have to be some major advance in sensor technology. Sure that will happen, but who knows when?
/T
mabelsound
09-09-2009, 10:58
Just about for ever. Think about it - what follow-on could possibly make people think their M9 was obsolete? It would have to be some major advance in sensor technology. Sure that will happen, but who knows when?
/T
I've been thinking this for a while. Digital cameras are basically excellent now. The new Pentax is amazing--the only upgrade I'd ever want is an eventual FF camera that is just as small...but really, I don't actually give a crap about FF in a DSLR.
I can't think of anything I might want in a DRF that the M9 doesn't have. It is basically equivalent to the M7 in every way, right? Except of course for the film. There will likely be future improvements in IQ but it's hard to imagine longing too hard for them.
Pickett Wilson
09-09-2009, 11:21
"Think about it - what follow-on could possibly make people think their M9 was obsolete? It would have to be some major advance in sensor technology."
That's got to be the scariest words Leica could ever hear. So after they sell their 20,000 M9's, what do they do next to get you to buy another camera?
Dante_Stella
09-09-2009, 11:24
There are only, what, 20,000 M8 and 8.2 owners out there? That's the figure I heard - not much of a supply, even if everyone cashed out at once.
I suspect that a lot of M8/M8.2 owners will dig in their heels and wait for the M9 to come down in price (once burned, twice shy...). Sure, there's depreciation in the meantime, but at least they still have cameras to shoot with. And it's easier to explain a lower sticker price (in the future) to a spouse than to explain you dumped an M8.2 you bought just last year at a $3K loss.
With the upgrade product being $7,000, the economics probably dictate that the prices of M8s and M8.2s will stay steady or even rise a little bit for the next year or so.
Dante
Wow, $6999 for a USA M9. Most predictions were in the $7500 to $9000 range. Looks like Leica priced it right to increase sales. But of course $6999 is still a lot for a camera body, any camera body.
A lot of M8 and M8.2 owners will be trading up. So how much will used M8 and M8.2 prices fall over the next 3 months? It should be interesting, and a great time for many people to get into a digital M for the first time.
Stephen
johnastovall
09-09-2009, 11:31
"Think about it - what follow-on could possibly make people think their M9 was obsolete? It would have to be some major advance in sensor technology."
That's got to be the scariest words Leica could ever hear. So after they sell their 20,000 M9's, what do they do next to get you to buy another camera?
They sell lenses. They do ala carte M9's... I think they will sell a lot more than 20,000 M9's.
Could the $6999 figure be an introductory price for a limited time? Does anybody expect Leica to increase the price of the M9 before the end of June?
Brian Sweeney
09-09-2009, 11:40
Well, I am happy to see the $7K price for the M9, no minor feat by Kodak and Leica. We're not talking mass production here.
My Guess: EX conditon M8 at $1750, M8.2 at $2,800.
Just about for ever. Think about it - what follow-on could possibly make people think their M9 was obsolete? It would have to be some major advance in sensor technology. Sure that will happen, but who knows when?
/T
The inclusion of the Maestro chip, electronics miniaturization leading to a digital-M the size of the M6, better Dynamic Range and noise characteristics... When Leica release the M10 people will find the reasons to upgrade.
snausages
09-09-2009, 11:46
Could the $6999 figure be an introductory price for a limited time? Does anybody expect Leica to increase the price of the M9 before the end of June?
As the Dollar continues to drop this year, it'll be totally on sale for Europeans, Asians, etc for Christmas!
Prices for used M8 will go up after M8.2 will be unavailable in stores.
I'm seriously surprised to see people letting their M8's go for less than $3000.
It really is worth a bit more than that. There is no functional difference between the M8 and the M8.2. I believe Leica is still offering the upgrade program as well.
I think the dramatic drop in used prices is perceived value. Because there is another/moderately better option out there doesn't mean the M8 is suddenly worthless.
There still is no other option out there for a digital rangefinder. For those who don't have $7k or are willing to spend that much for the user experience, there can only be an M8. So why are people letting them go so cheap? The only reason I can think of is that a lot of people who own M8's are not the original owners. They are people who bought the camera 2nd hand. Even some 3rd and 4th owners. Because a lot of people bought the M8 but didn't like it. So by selling is for $2200. They aren't taking as large a loss on it. And this price has become acceptable, even the standard.
an m8 with 500 shutter actuations just went for a little less than $2100.
bluepenguin
09-09-2009, 11:54
By looking at M9 production from dpreview, it is mass produced.
It's not like old style production anymore.
Could the $6999 figure be an introductory price for a limited time? Does anybody expect Leica to increase the price of the M9 before the end of June?
If not by the end of June then definitely next year - along with the other ALPI that occur.
I can only think of Apple's recent (i.e. today) announcement which has them lowering their prices on a number of products while making those same products "better".
The M9 is the "first" of it's kind (per se - Full Frame) - you'd think the smart move would be to keep the price the same at worst or decrease the price at best with the next iteration of the product - based on Leica's past; I doubt that's going to happen.
M9.2 will be a 24MP FF M body with better High ISO and cost $9,000 USD - and there will still be more than enough folks to buy it :)
Cheers,
Dave
giellaleafapmu
09-09-2009, 12:04
Wow, $6999 for a USA M9. Most predictions were in the $7500 to $9000 range. Looks like Leica priced it right to increase sales. But of course $6999 is still a lot for a camera body, any camera body.
Stephen
Your comment accidentally answer another common question often asked in this forum: "Is the M-whatever a pro camera?". Answer: "Probably most of the times it is not".
A Hasselblad series H3D, which goes I believe for about 26,000 US$, probably is and as such at Hasselblad they offer leasing plans, if the M9 really was the life-changing machine pro were waiting for maybe 7,000 US$ not olny would not be considered such an high price but would even be thought to be a cheap price...
GLF
M9.2 will be a 24MP FF M body with better High ISO and cost $9,000 USD - and there will still be more than enough folks to buy it
The only hopes I have for the M9.2 are viewfinder options and this time I'll spend the extra money on the sapphire glass because it really is a camera I'd expect to keep for life.
If someone here can convince me that the M8 pictures here http://abdallah.hiof.no/2009_lofoten/ need an M9 to be as good as the 5D1 pictures in the same collection, would it also be worth bearing a bad conscience (and my wife's wrath) for the duration?
- Børre
shadowfox
09-09-2009, 12:14
I predict that M9 will be the hit-the-jackpot moment for Leica.
Consider this, what have so far held people at bay when it comes to a digital Leica? crop-sensor.
Once that's out of the way, many DSLR users who secretly wanted a Leica (with the convenience of digital, of course) will go for it.
I also predict the spike on well-heeled digital people getting to know this "manual focusing" -thing :rolleyes:
By looking at M9 production from dpreview, it is mass produced.
It's not like old style production anymore.
old style production was even more mass produced. they made a lot more every month back then!
Pickett Wilson
09-09-2009, 12:17
"Once that's out of the way, many DSLR users who secretly wanted a Leica (with the convenience of digital, of course) will go for it."
I don't know. They would still have to buy into a collection of expensive lenses. We continually here overestimate the market for new RF's in general and DRF's in particular.
martin s
09-09-2009, 12:19
The only hopes I have for the M9.2 are viewfinder options and this time I'll spend the extra money on the sapphire glass because it really is a camera I'd expect to keep for life.
How old do you plan on getting?
martin
Once we enter the digital camera arena, we need to expect cameras to depreciate in a similar fashion as computer do each year. Longevity of any specific digital camera is questionable. We are in the disposable items age.
I suspect that a lot of M8/M8.2 owners will dig in their heels and wait for the M9 to come down in price (once burned, twice shy...).
Yes, and make sure there are no technoglitches this time. The M4, M5, M6 classic, M6TTL and M7 all had introductory glitches. Nikon has had at least three high profile glitches since getting into DSLRs. The M8 saga was not unique to the film/digital transition nor unique to Leica.
I continue to be surprised, by the way, at how candid LFI's coverage of the M8 was. High marks for journalistic independence relative to what passes for "journalism" in most of today's media.
How old do you plan on getting?
martin
Another 4-5 years until I starve to death due to poor spending habits.
If someone here can convince me that the M8 pictures here http://abdallah.hiof.no/2009_lofoten/ need an M9 to be as good as the 5D1 pictures in the same collection, would it also be worth bearing a bad conscience (and my wife's wrath) for the duration?
- Børre
Absolutely on target - very, very true.
JPSuisse
09-09-2009, 12:33
Hi all...
If you can bare my personal thoughts on this. I have an M8 and a couple of MPs. My M8's not yet for sale... Here are my reasons:
1.) The price point is attractive for the M9, but honestly too big to make me change.
2.) I like the M8! Rrendering of the M8 for dark shots with reflections is very pleasing, and I like using the camera as a close up for impromptu snapshots in tight areas with my 28mm f2. Especially at gatherings, parties, etc. The flexibility is better than with my MP. The M9 doesn't change this.
3.) Finally, I really have started using my 50 Lux ASPH as on my M8 frequently at 1.4. There's no substitute in Leica's current lens line up.
So, I won't be switching over to the M9 any time soon and selling my M8 along the way. I would need to find a good 75mm 1.4 lens in addtion to the M9. That all adds up. And, I'm not that rich... But, it looks like Leica did a good job!!! The M9'll probably be a great camera.
Cheers, JP
Roger Hicks
09-09-2009, 12:33
Once we enter the digital camera arena, we need to expect cameras to depreciate in a similar fashion as computer do each year. Longevity of any specific digital camera is questionable. We are in the disposable items age.
Dear Raid,
What improvements do you expect in an M9.2 or M10?
More megapixels (18 is enough for publication)? A different rangefinder? A different lens mount? Better manual focus? Better metering? More shutter speeds? What? Sure, higher ISO/less noise is possible, but again, if you're merely earnng a living with a camera, instead of buying bragging rights, how much more do you need than ISO 2500? Some do, perhaps, but not many. Likewise you can improve AWB and everything else; but an awful lot of buyers aren't going to care, because the M8.2 is already good enough.
In other words, likening an M9 to a computer, merely because both contain a lot of electronics, is facile and shallow. I really believe that it won't depreciate at anything like the rate of low-end consumer products, because it isn't a low-end consumer product and because it's aimed at photographers, not at computer nerds who play memory-hungry games on machines that are more powerful than those which NASA used to put a man on the moon.
Cheers,
R.
mynikonf2
09-09-2009, 12:34
I think Leica really hit a home run with the M9, a full frame RF!!! & priced in between the D3x and the D3. It even looks like a M series camera, I love it !!! Let's face it, we have to pay through the nose for just about anything Leica makes. If the M8 starts selling for $1900 that's still alot of money for most of us.
I'm just glad to see Leica, once again, make such a fine camera. (even if I can't buy one):bang:
That jackpot moment might take some time to arrive.
I just took a look in the Classifieds section, and the sudden increase of ads I expected has not (yet?) set in.
When the brochure was leaked, there suddenly was some very nice gear for sale. Not the case now.
I guess people need some time to decide what to sell to raise the funds. I'm not planning to sell any gear to pay for the M9, so I guess it'll take me a couple of years to get me one.
In the mean time, lets see if I can pick up a bargain price, clean, usergrade M5 somewhere next month?:rolleyes: Maybe a nice Canon 50mm f1.5 to go with it?:)
nikonhswebmaster
09-09-2009, 12:53
I don't know. They would still have to buy into a collection of expensive lenses. We continually here overestimate the market for new RF's in general and DRF's in particular.
Only some of you guys.
I shot using Nikon rangefinders for years, and only owned three lenses (21-35-50), and at that rarely used the 21. If I bought an M9 -- I would most likely start out with a 35 f2, and maybe buy a 50 f2 later, but would not likely miss it if I never did.
See no use to sell M8 for pennies for the owners immediately. For the price of 2000 better to keep it as we see that we can not buy something good (slr with FF) for 2k.
Then it should be clear that only few cams went to Solms since sales started
The total investment in two years (if we suppose the prise for used M8 is 2 k ) will be 5500-3000+6999=9500
Next two years they will make M10 and investments will rise again.
Leica M15 accruals will be circa 20k???
And here we come to a question whether Leica is so damn cool?
Brian Sweeney
09-09-2009, 12:57
Welcome to the world of Digital.
monochromejrnl
09-09-2009, 13:02
I predict that M9 will be the hit-the-jackpot moment for Leica.
Consider this, what have so far held people at bay when it comes to a digital Leica? crop-sensor.
Once that's out of the way, many DSLR users who secretly wanted a Leica (with the convenience of digital, of course) will go for it.
I also predict the spike on well-heeled digital people getting to know this "manual focusing" -thing :rolleyes:
I suspect that there will be a fair number used M9s available within 6-9 mo of its release... folks moving over from dSLRs will probably be disappointed - lack of AF will be a killer for those migrating from high frame rate, AF dSLRs... folks will come to the harsh realization that the M9 doesn't take any better pics than their 5DMKii, D700/D3, which cost less AND offer AF ;P
"Once that's out of the way, many DSLR users who secretly wanted a Leica (with the convenience of digital, of course) will go for it."
I don't know. They would still have to buy into a collection of expensive lenses. We continually here overestimate the market for new RF's in general and DRF's in particular.
If I buy a M9, I'll buy a couple of LTM to M adapters and stick my Jupiter-8 and 35mm CV Skopar on it.
Once we enter the digital camera arena, we need to expect cameras to depreciate in a similar fashion as computer do each year. Longevity of any specific digital camera is questionable. We are in the disposable items age.
Raid gets it (in terms of used equipment that is).
Used 1Ds MK III's have recently been going for $5200 CDN - that's about $4800 USD
Initially that was announced back in 2007 (about 2 years ago now) for $8,000 USD MSRP.
The previous version? 1Ds MK II? Well, recently as low as $2600 CDN and when that was announced initially it was $8,000 USD MSRP back in 2004.
Neither of those pro cameras were aimed at computer nerds either. :)
The M8 is now going for as low as $2200-$2500 USD here. And it's still being made (apparently) and sold at $4000 USD via B&H. Who would have thought that it would "depreciate" in the used arena unlike, say, M3's that initially held their value and even increased over time.. only now to be coming back to earth due to the supposed "death" of film :rolleyes: Yet there are the examples of Canon and Nikon and other digital bodies before them that points to such a fact.
Depreciation of this equipment has got nothing to do with how "luxurious" these things are; not anymore at least. This is all about electronics and the fact that there are still advancements and improvements to be made; no matter how small, in the arena. The only reason Leicas will not depreciate is that no one else is making a full frame digital RF camera.
Leica has at least "listened" (this time) to it's constituents and created something that they requested. The value of the M9 will be upheld for the time being. I too don't think it will remain as high we might think though once they start hitting the used market (should they that is) :D
Cheers,
Dave
Double Negative
09-09-2009, 13:11
...computer nerds who play memory-hungry games on machines that are more powerful than those which NASA used to put a man on the moon.
Hey, I still love my original IBM PC - and shoot with a Hassy V series. :p
http://litpixel.com/ee/images/thumb/_1D_6950.jpg (http://litpixel.com/ee/photo.php?photo=2621&exhibition=46&ee_lang=eng&u=4559,1)
Jeff Day
09-09-2009, 13:16
The inclusion of the Maestro chip, electronics miniaturization leading to a digital-M the size of the M6, better Dynamic Range and noise characteristics... When Leica release the M10 people will find the reasons to upgrade.
I suspect that the time for the M9 to become dated will be about the same as the M8/M8.2, or about 3 years. So I suspect we will see an M10 in 2012.
Nevertheless, I have my M9 on order.
Best,
Jeff
Brian Sweeney
09-09-2009, 13:30
> not at computer nerds who play memory-hungry games on machines that are more
> powerful than those which NASA used to put a man on the moon.
Many Thousands of times more powerful than the computer that NASA used.
"The Apollo AGC itself is a piece of computing history, it was developed by the MIT Instrumentation Laboratory and it was a quite amazing piece of hardware in the 1960s. It was the first computer to use integrated circuits (ICs), running at 1 Mhz it offered four 16-bit registers, 4K words of RAM and 32K words of ROM. The AGC mutlitasking operating system was called the EXEC, it was capable of executing up to 8 jobs at a time. The user interface unit was called the DSKY (display/keyboard, pronounced "disky"); an array of numerals and a calculator-style keyboard used by the astronauts to communicate with the computer." From:
http://www.galaxiki.org/web/main/_blog/all/build-your-own-nasa-apollo-landing-computer-no-kidding.shtml
I still have my Z80a computer, 4Mhz Z80a w 64KBytes of RAM. It's more powerful than some of the embedded processors that I use these days.
The M9 "only" has 11 times the pixels that my 1.6MPixel 1992 DSLR has. Progress in Sensor technology does not follow Moore's law. It does not double every two years.
Pickett Wilson
09-09-2009, 13:35
Imsai 8080 here. The computer the kid had in "War Games." Those were the days.
God, I'm old.
"Once that's out of the way, many DSLR users who secretly wanted a Leica (with the convenience of digital, of course) will go for it."
I don't know. They would still have to buy into a collection of expensive lenses. We continually here overestimate the market for new RF's in general and DRF's in particular.
Thats very true. Althought it still only takes just one manufacturer to nail an alternative cheaper camera to have the chair completely kicked out from under Leica and their whole design regime.
The higher end of what the M9 can produce isn't going to be realised in a normal 16"x20" print typical of the upper reaches of RF folklore. So up to that size and IQ the Leica world is already having a minor kicking from the likes of Panasonic.
People worry now about what the M9 is doing to the prices of M8 and M8.2, but they should be worried about the residual price of the M9 in the next 18 months as well.
Steve
Once that's out of the way, many DSLR users who secretly wanted a Leica (with the convenience of digital, of course) will go for it.
I also predict the spike on well-heeled digital people getting to know this "manual focusing" -thing :rolleyes:
I agree. We'll get a bunch of new (well-heeled) RF users. This also means:
- the used market for LTM and M "cult" lenses will take a hike. Including teles this time. So hold on to your Canon 50/1.5, Summicron v4, rigid Summicron, 135/2.8 Elmarit etc. Might be worth twice in a couple of months if clean. If extrapolating from the Noctilux price increase that came with the M8, the 75/1.4 will be worth twice what it is now in a year or so :)
- Don (DAG) will be inaccessible for 6-12 months to come, flooded with adjustments of "focus shift" of new M9 cameras and expensive lenses.
:rolleyes:
Roland.
Double Negative
09-09-2009, 13:41
Imsai 8080 here. The computer the kid had in "War Games." Those were the days.
God, I'm old.
Nice one! "Want to play a game?"
MY oldest personal computer is the Radio Shack TRS-80 Model I. I used an Apple ][ as well, but it wasn't my own. Indeed, those were the days.
Pickett Wilson
09-09-2009, 13:50
I had a TRS-80 Model 1. With the expansion interface and two 5.25 floppy drives. Cat would walk across the desk and the thing would lock up! Eventually came up with the buffered cable which helped a bit.
You must be old, too. ;)
As far as I'm concerned the depreciation on my M8 is just a paper loss until I sell it. I'm completely unaffected by full-frame-fever and though I still think the IR filters are idiocy, I'm used to them. I rarely shoot above ISO 320, and mostly 160. Even if I get an M9, which I probably will but not until there are demos <$5K, I'll still keep the M8 as a backup as long as it's still working. There's no way I'll give my M8 away. I shoot with a 5D but I still have my 20D as a backup.
I am OLD!!:eek:
TRS-80
Apple ][
S-100 bus
Good old days. does anyone remember ' Byte ' magazine.
miklosphoto
09-09-2009, 14:05
I just decided to wait till 10/10/2010 to see if there is an M10 coming out.
:) Just kidding.
I am keeping my upgraded M8, period.
I took my R8 and 35mm, 90mm APO/ASPH, and 135mm lenses to a special farm event last Saturday halfway between Los Angeles and San Francisco near the California coast with three rolls of Acros 100 and got outstanding images! I am still, and always will be, passionate about the extremely high quality of film and cringe at the thought of spending thousands of dollars for an M8 or M9 versus how much film I could buy instead! I love my M6 TTL and my R8 and all the compatible lenses I also have for both bodies and I will never switch to digital.
Double Negative
09-09-2009, 14:14
I had a TRS-80 Model 1. With the expansion interface and two 5.25 floppy drives. Cat would walk across the desk and the thing would lock up! Eventually came up with the buffered cable which helped a bit.
You must be old, too. ;)
Yep, I had the Expansion Interface also. Damn thing never worked quite right, even after several trips back to RS. Therefore didn't end up with the disk drives... Though I used TRS-DOS on my buddy's. Heh. Yeah, those solder-plated ribbon cables were the bane of every TRS-80 user's existence.
I'm getting up there - but I refuse to accept "old" yet. :p
...Good old days. does anyone remember ' Byte ' magazine.
Indeed! I have several copies floating around somewhere.
Dear Raid,
What improvements do you expect in an M9.2 or M10?
More megapixels (18 is enough for publication)? A different rangefinder? A different lens mount? Better manual focus? Better metering? More shutter speeds? What? Sure, higher ISO/less noise is possible, but again, if you're merely earnng a living with a camera, instead of buying bragging rights, how much more do you need than ISO 2500? Some do, perhaps, but not many. Likewise you can improve AWB and everything else; but an awful lot of buyers aren't going to care, because the M8.2 is already good enough.
In other words, likening an M9 to a computer, merely because both contain a lot of electronics, is facile and shallow. I really believe that it won't depreciate at anything like the rate of low-end consumer products, because it isn't a low-end consumer product and because it's aimed at photographers, not at computer nerds who play memory-hungry games on machines that are more powerful than those which NASA used to put a man on the moon.
Cheers,
R.
it'll probably depreciate at the rate of high-end digital cameras. there are also a bunch of features they could add without significant alterations:
- sensor based image stabilization
- autofocus, phase detect and contrast based (with live view, tripod work)
- dust filter
- weather sealing
- 920,000 dot lcd with wider viewing angle
Pickett Wilson
09-09-2009, 14:26
Remember Byte well.
Finaciancially I'm a long way from buying an M9 but I must admit if I had a spare lump of money I wouldn't hesitate. If this camera really adresses the issues that irked us all about the M8 then it will be nearly perfect and I fail to see how Leica could make sufficient improvements three years down the track to supercede it with an M10 or whatever. Having created the perfect 18 megapixel manual focus digital platform for their M lens range that is where they should spend their development budget ... lenses.
If they did turn around in three years and offer an M10 what could it possibly have to make people want to trade ... a 24 megapixel sensor, a stop better ISO performance, live view? There's really nowhere to go when you may have already ceated the perfect digital rangefinder because the design is so inherently simple and basic that it has limited scope for technological improvement that can actually be incorporated into it's function.
I suspect that in the future they will have to come up with some totally new designs to keep their meter ticking over and maybe they will venture into the area of video cams ... who knows? In the meantime though I supect they are going to sell a lot of M9's!
Pickett Wilson
09-09-2009, 14:53
I think the next big innovation will be a digital shutter. No moving parts. No noise. Would that nudge you into an M10, Keith? ;)
There are also a bunch of features they could add without significant alterations:
- :
- sensor based image stabilization
- :
"The Leica man knows how to hold his camera. He is never flustered, no matter what may be going on around him. The LEICA's image stabilization comes from the quiet, unflappable confidence inherent in every Leica photographer. " (KR)
:)
Brian Sweeney
09-09-2009, 15:03
I am OLD!!:eek:
TRS-80
Apple ][
S-100 bus
Good old days. does anyone remember ' Byte ' magazine.
Remember Byte and some even older ones.
Funny that this ancient history for computers is about the same age as an M4P and F3HP.
Wang 360 Calculator, Nixie Tubes. Leica M4. Beatles. Shelby Cobra GT500. 1968. The Wang cost as much as a Shelby. But the Wang has a stuck bit in the accumulator...have to take it apart.
snausages
09-09-2009, 15:06
The thing I love most about the M9 so far is my $100 Olympus OM kit.
Pickett Wilson
09-09-2009, 15:06
Had a friend that worked was a repair tech for Wang back in the early 1980's.
I actually owned a PDP 11-73 and two huge cart drives back in the late 1980's. Didn't need a heater in the winter, but the neighbors complained about the brownouts every time I booted it up.
"The Leica man knows how to hold his camera. He is never flustered, no matter what may be going on around him. The LEICA's image stabilization comes from the quiet, unflappable confidence inherent in every Leica photographer. " (KR)
:)
That sort of 'sell speak' makes me want to puke! I'd like to get the person who wrote that piece of overly emotive imagery and bury them next to the Marlboro Man! :p
Pickett Wilson
09-09-2009, 15:08
The Leica man could, of course, only live in Australia! ;)
If they did turn around in three years and offer an M10 what could it possibly have to make people want to trade ... a 24 megapixel sensor, a stop better ISO performance, live view? There's really nowhere to go when you may have already ceated the perfect digital rangefinder because the design is so inherently simple and basic that it has limited scope for technological improvement that can actually be incorporated into it's function.
That's the (nice?) thing about technological advance —*you never know what tomorrow's advance can bring about in three to five years. It could just be that killer feature you just never knew you wanted or needed. "Perfect" is relative to now.
That being said, if I had a spare $8000 lying around, I'd pick up an M9. :)
The Leica man could, of course, only live in Australia! ;)
If they give me a free M9 I'll be anything they want me to be ... I'll wear a dress and high heels if necessary! :p
That sort of 'sell speak' makes me want to puke! I'd like to get the person who wrote that piece of overly emotive imagery and bury them next to the Marlboro Man! :p
Him, Harley and Ken Rockwell will live happily ever after ...
Leica Man and Marlboro Man agree: one smokin' camera
Brian Sweeney
09-09-2009, 15:39
Had a friend that worked was a repair tech for Wang back in the early 1980's.
I actually owned a PDP 11-73 and two huge cart drives back in the late 1980's. Didn't need a heater in the winter, but the neighbors complained about the brownouts every time I booted it up.
My Midterm Exam for a 500 level computer course was to implement the PDP-8 instruction set using PDP-11/70 microcode.
PDP: Programmed Data Processor. What a great assembly language.
I had a Vax 11/730 as my PC in the early 1980s. I'm a newbie. $30,000.
Used it to process imagery from a Scanning Digital Imager with an image size of 240x3000. The 240 element arrays cost $40,000. The 28-track tape drive was $100K. 1983. Somehow $7K for an 18MPixel camera that uses SD cards that run $30 or so a pop just does not seem out of line.
digitalintrigue
09-09-2009, 17:18
$7K would be $3K if it were produced by a mass market manufacturer and the market were indeed mass.
For what it is, it's a fair price. I won't be buying one, I prefer my Contax G2 too much and I'd rather put a turbo on my 911 than get an M9 anyway. ;)
Double Negative
09-09-2009, 17:26
Had a friend that worked was a repair tech for Wang back in the early 1980's.
I actually owned a PDP 11-73 and two huge cart drives back in the late 1980's. Didn't need a heater in the winter, but the neighbors complained about the brownouts every time I booted it up.
Nice! Those were great boxes. I arrived just after, with a VAX 11/780 and later a MicroVAX II. Digital Rainbows running CP/M, VT-100 and VT-220 terminals. Ahhh, living life at 9,600 baud!
Pickett Wilson
09-09-2009, 17:36
Actually started playing with computers in the mid 1970's, interfacing scratch built computers with Type 33 teletype machines for "terminals." When I finally got my hands on an ASCII keyboard and a real monitor, I was high tech! And 2K of memory was astronomically expensive.
I was first online in about 1981 with CompuServe. With a 300 baud modem! Too funny. Ran my own Wildcat BBS in the early 1990's for several years, before the Internet came along and killed BBS's.
Fun memories.
I picked up an M9 today, well, then I shot a few images and after a while, the Leica Rep wanted it back. ;-)
Was not a big crowd, not publicized really, but three or four serious lookers all saying they were going to buy one, trying to see if there was any wiggle room in the price, education discount, etc.
Looks good, frames are nice, thought image was a bit generous of the frame lines for the 35mm, highest ISO seems a bit noisy, camera felt very solid.
Was surprised the screen was not sapphire, Rep was talking about it as an upgrade, which seemed a bit odd for a camera that got most of it right, why pay $7000 and then add an upgrade, which will not be cheap? Was the Sapphire option a good idea or not? Seemed to convey a feeling they were struggling to keep it below $7K, but how much is a screen cover?
File size was large, couple hundred images on a 4 GB card? Opened up in PS to about 35MB.
Battery charger a normal size.
It definitely said "take me home".
It is a lot of money, but it looks like a keeper.
Regards, John
$1900 for a nice M8, my guess...
i wouldn't expect that soon. heck, the m8 is still the second best digital RF in the world. i don't think $7,000 is a bad price for the M9, but i don't see many M8 owners pitching their M8s in a hurry ... well, at least not this one. but perhaps i'm an odd leica user--as i began on the M8 and have never used a FF RF.
gilpen123
09-09-2009, 18:54
All my credit cards are clean with big credit limits. I just ordered 2 M9 and an X1 and will bring it all over Europe. Oh and btw I also got the 35 1.4 asph and 75 1.4. I think I'll be staying in one of those Shangrila hotels and rent a Range Rover for my expedition. ........Oh shucks I woke up not being able to download to my Byte computer.
Exactly these two cameras (and also an Nikon FM) I have used at my recent trip. Old cameras for sure but still can compete with the M9 regarding image quality (in BW at least) and for a fraction of the $$$$. :D
Funny that this ancient history for computers is about the same age as an M4P and F3HP.
HenningW
09-09-2009, 19:06
I just decided to wait till 10/10/2010 to see if there is an M10 coming out.
:) Just kidding.
I am keeping my upgraded M8, period.
12/12/2012 will clearly be the announcement of the final iteration; the ultimate M and the perfect camera.
HenningW
09-09-2009, 19:09
I took my R8 and 35mm, 90mm APO/ASPH, and 135mm lenses to a special farm event last Saturday halfway between Los Angeles and San Francisco near the California coast with three rolls of Acros 100 and got outstanding images! I am still, and always will be, passionate about the extremely high quality of film and cringe at the thought of spending thousands of dollars for an M8 or M9 versus how much film I could buy instead! I love my M6 TTL and my R8 and all the compatible lenses I also have for both bodies and I will never switch to digital.
and miss out on a substantial upgrade in quality???
The dark ages are comforting, but they're dark.
HenningW
09-09-2009, 19:26
It may be that the price difference between the 8 and the 9 is so great that, even if we see lots of them in the classifieds, the prices won't drop because at the moment the only alternative is $7K.
However, when someone like Nikon, Canon, Zeiss/Cosina, or Panasonic step up with a FFRF... THEN the prices of the 8 will definitely drop. I assume that's sometime off yet, but if the 9 sales take off, there's do doubt going to be a lot of interest at the other companies, don't you think? :-) !!
It's a stretch. Those guys (except Zeiss/Cosina) would also have to design lenses, unless they're only targeting M lens owners. It's hard to see how Nikon and Canon would be interested, especially since they'd have to make sure that their offerings deliver as good or better quality on the first try. it's not really that easy, and they've been away for a while. I'm sure they could do it, but it would take a lot of resources from them as well, and they can make more money more easily with what they know; DSLR's. Panasonic isn't going to be there. They're starting further back yet, and their strength is consumer electronics which is what the G1/GF1 is built on. A whole different game.
I stay behind what I stated, regardless what Roger Hicks responded. Each of us has an opinion, and that's all it is... an opinion.
Prices will eventually go down for any digital camera.
Maybe the M9 is a heaven sent camera for some slice of photographers, but for most people the price is too high.
Maybe a simpler version will come out soon, like a M9x which can be sold at around $3000?
digitalintrigue
09-09-2009, 20:01
Raid, you have a very good point. This is one thing that really surprised me...the M8.2 is no longer in the product lineup. One would think they could have had something to bridge the gap between the X1 and the M9...perhaps the reality is that the cost to produce the M9 is not all that different from the cost of an M8.2.
In my personal opinion after the released of the M8 in September 2006, a digital rangefinder M-Mount camera, I feel that Leica is playing with a difficult deal again.
After just three years of the M8 the release of a new M can't offer the legendary old school Leica concept, sadly, I'm sure about it. Specially, because is to much different talking about film and digital, like to talk about automatic watches and quartz watches. The present is forgiving the perpetual feeling of may artifacts, we talk more about disposables, but a legendary Leica... have to stay. I remember when the camera model survive for more than ten years without changes. To pass from a M8 to a M9 is a significant step and it doesn't have to be a fancy 9/9/09 or to see what company release just another new model. In the past I feel the companies used to make an experiment with themselves before the release, I mean make a "SOLID STEP". Are they are trying to make us experiment for them now?
I will not surprise if the new M9 need a predecessor in he next years like a M9.2 of something like this, increasing again a thousand to the price, or maybe you will need to buy another expensive accessory to be well with your treasure.
I admit that it's amazing to have a new Leica in the photography world for us, and all the expectation that we are always waiting when a new camera is coming.
But, I prefer to wait until the M9 survive for at least 5 years without significant changes before I consider to have one, to be sincere. Because is very nice to make photography experiments ourselves, but it's not funny to experiment with your wallet.
Good old days. does anyone remember ' Byte ' magazine.
Well, obviously, but does anyone remember the Byte stores? (There was a connection, too). As for the IMSAI 8080, that was a sweet machine of the era. I programmed it from the front panel... in hex!
You're lucky in the US. ONLY $7000. $11995 here in Oz. 'New' M8s up to $5800 and M8.2s around $9000 still. We always get ripped off for camera gear here! Going by that, the X1 would end up $3400 here, which I don't think they could justify. I'll be interested in the eventual X1 sale price here.
Programming Dbase on cp/m running under z80 card adapter in an apple ][. Like these m9 GAS now, at that time always think about trying s100 bus computer due to one column in Byte.
heck, the m8 is still the second best digital RF in the world.
It is also the second worst ;)
(some even say the worst...)
The world definitely goes mad...
7 k for an ordinary (non exclusive) digital camera without lens...
And that's we who establish the price.
Ourselves for ourselves
Pickett Wilson
09-10-2009, 02:52
RFF is an interesting forum. Populated by lots of folks that can drop $7,000 at the drop of a hat. And consider it quite a deal! ;)
Roger Hicks
09-10-2009, 03:01
RFF is an interesting forum. Populated by lots of folks that can drop $7,000 at the drop of a hat. And consider it quite a deal! ;)
And even more for whom it's a hell of a stretch, not lightly embarked upon, but still considered worth it.
Cheers,
R.
Double Negative
09-10-2009, 04:58
12/12/2012 will clearly be the announcement of the final iteration; the ultimate M and the perfect camera.
But it won't ship until the 13th. ;)
RFF is an interesting forum. Populated by lots of folks that can drop $7,000 at the drop of a hat. And consider it quite a deal! ;)
hehe... but they'll complain about Paypal fees ;)
Dave
A statement to think about:
"We should stick together as a RF group, and we need to insist on new and better non-digital RF cameras. It is dangerous to just sit back and allow digital gizmos take over the RF arena. I know, some people here [a small minority out of the 20,000 membership] wants a digital RF camera, but it is not what the majority of RF users want."
I forgot who said it.
Do you feel otherwise or do you feel similalarly to what the statement says?
Pickett Wilson
09-10-2009, 05:31
Raid, I love my film M's. But the reality is that it is only going to get harder to buy and get film processed. It really makes no sense that a camera company would at this point in history produce a new mechanical, film based rangefinder. We can insist until we are blue in the face, but it just doesn't seem reasonable to me to expect it.
Pickett,
It is not reasonable to expect a peaceful and prosperous Iraq, but I still do.
Without the will to get what you really want, it will never happen. Do not allow the major companies to lead us into an enforced digital arena.
digitalintrigue
09-10-2009, 05:42
Manufacturers will build what the market demands. Unfortunately the market isn't demanding mechanical film cameras. Besides, the ones that have already been manufactured work quite well.
It's really not hard to get film processed though. It may not be as convenient as it once was but it's not going to get harder.
Pickett Wilson
09-10-2009, 05:44
So you think the situation with film with continue for the long term as it is now? I dunno.
Pickett Wilson
09-10-2009, 05:47
Raid, what company are you going to demand mechanical RF's from? Leica makes a couple and I doubt they are going to come out with a new model. Cosina makes several models, but they have about exhausted the possibilities for new models. Nikon and Canon have zero interest or motivation to do R&D in that area.
ethics_gradient
09-10-2009, 05:49
do you feel similalarly to what the statement says?
No, not all. I'm not particularly attached to the concept of an all-mechanical camera (the idea of buying an R3M over an R3A, sacrificing AE for the possibility that your batteries die and you were too imprudent to lug around a pair of thimble-sized SR-44's just seems ridiculous to me), although I certainly can appreciate the craftsmenship that goes in to one.
Innovation in the digital field likely a far more viable growth strategy for a company today. I don't really see the need to re-invent the wheel with another mechanical RF, there are plenty of old bodies to choose from already, whereas we have what, 3 different models of DRF's now, none of which can be had for less than a thousand dollars? It seems unlikely that mainstream consumers would want to take a step "backwards" to manually focusing again, although perhaps something like a digital Contax-G (with manual-focusable lenses) might have a market.
Raid, I love my film M's. But the reality is that it is only going to get harder to buy and get film processed. It really makes no sense that a camera company would at this point in history produce a new mechanical, film based rangefinder. We can insist until we are blue in the face, but it just doesn't seem reasonable to me to expect it.
Agreed.
I would think, though, Raid (and everyone else who wants to have yet another film camera created) that the same group of people you mentioned in that quote could potentially influence a competitor to create another full frame digital RF camera. One that, while not carrying the Leica dot, would still be able to support the M-mount (much like Cosina/Zeiss/Voigtlander).
I don't expect Canon or Nikon to do this though - if they had seen a big enough need/desire/market for such a camera they would have, one would think, have had it by now. They develop (Canon at least) their own sensor technology - so an aps-c or even full frame digital RF could have been produced by them.
Sony has potential but only as a sensor maker - they have no RF experience.
Ideally - "Mr K" will convince Sony to "borrow" one of their chips and drop it back into some version of the Voigtlander/Zeiss cameras - not just another R-D1 version either - but they need the impetus to do so and that has to come from those 20,000 RF fans out there.
Cheers,
Dave
shadowfox
09-10-2009, 07:50
Raid, what company are you going to demand mechanical RF's from?
Those Lomography people.
They are treading the waters with TLR's (plastic, of course), so in due time, they will come up with a plastic RF dubbed: "The Lecia" in gold, pink, and maroon colors, of course.
Raid, what company are you going to demand mechanical RF's from? Leica makes a couple and I doubt they are going to come out with a new model. Cosina makes several models, but they have about exhausted the possibilities for new models. Nikon and Canon have zero interest or motivation to do R&D in that area.
I meant to say "non-digital" and not "mechanical". As long as people want to use film cameras, there is room for another camera.
I meant to say "non-digital" and not "mechanical". As long as people want to use film cameras, there is room for another camera.
I can't see another entrant into what is a very, very shallow pool. While I don't see film ever disappearing entirely, I suspect that it has been relegated to the same small proportion of the photographic community that vinyl has among audiophiles. We can produce new film cameras all we want (rangefinder or otherwise), but I don't see new product substantially increasing market share for film -- just more companies chasing the same amount of dollars (and competing against 50 years of decent used product already out there).
I would argue that given the limited market for film photography, that we have an embarassment of riches right now. Who would have thought that in an era when film is in retreat, that there would not only be one, but THREE companies producing 35mm film rangefinder bodies and lenses -- at price points that allow just about anybody to try a rangefinder out, and with universal compatibility of lenses? Do we need more?
We decide what is in retreat and what is not.
elmer3.5
09-10-2009, 09:51
Isn`t it time for an M digital back ? I guess it should be a great business! It`s not an original nor new idea, is it?
Bye
Al Patterson
09-10-2009, 10:20
12/12/2012 will clearly be the announcement of the final iteration; the ultimate M and the perfect camera.
Sure, but since the world ends on 12/21/2012, you won't get much time to actually USE it...
Sure, but since the world ends on 12/21/2012, you won't get much time to actually USE it...
Waive the warranty and get a black market M10 for a few days before you go [with your M10] to .... heaven or hell?
dazedgonebye
09-10-2009, 11:29
Anyone else think that perhaps a $7k price opens a door for Zeiss?
Seems like a lot of space South of that number where Zeiss could come in as a (still expensive) "value" option.
Pickett Wilson
09-10-2009, 11:40
If another maker brought out a DRF, it would simply split the limited market in half, unless it was a $1,000 M mount DRF.
Pickett Wilson
09-10-2009, 11:45
I think the real problem for Leica is that, when they introduced the M8, they had no user base of a previous DRF out there. And they sold fewer than 20,000 M8's. Now they have those 20,000 folks out there who already own a DRF (he M8) many who are satisfied with the M8 and won't be M9 buyers. So they have a more expensive product selling into a potentially smaller market.
It's going to be interesting to see how well the M9 sells after the initial rush. As usual, they are competing only against themselves.
Could the $6999 figure be an introductory price for a limited time? Does anybody expect Leica to increase the price of the M9 before the end of June?
In USA the price will go up in US$. This because the dollar is falling. It is a good reason that the M9 will stay fairly stable in €.
It's going to be interesting to see how well the M9 sells after the initial rush. As usual, they are competing only against themselves.
Very true, but it's been true for yeeeeeeears, really. Arguably, since Nikon and Canon stopped making serious RFs. Zeiss, Cosina, Epson, etc. are really peripheral competitors in the film world and Epson hardly made a dent in the digital world.
Sorry but I dont see any reason I would ever downgrade my 5D to an M8 when the 5D costs a fraction of an M8, even in the current situation and used market. Small? Yes. Can I get the exact same results out of a cheaper and better/faster/muuuch higher iq camera? Yes. No thanks.
M9 is a different story since at least initial reports saying is has as good of an IQ as the 5D. If thats the case then I'm definately interested in one. The 5D has wonderful IQ even at higher ISOs, and honestly im happy with that.
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