Leica has TTL flash and FP flash, ZI not

[Henrichard]

Well I am one of those guys who have tryed an M7 and read a lot, but am not an experienced RF photographer. I found in this forum a lot of positive claims about Zeizz Ikons new rangefinder which should be so much better than leicas.

But have you ever thought about how much we use the flash. And the ZI don't have the TTL flash measurement and also high speed flash which is practically in sunlight.

[rover]

I bet most RF photography, no, 90% or more of it, is done without a flash.

[Mazurka]

Okay, I'll bite.

1. You have to use the humougous Metz 54 MZ3.

2. You have no flash metering at all - not from the body, not from the flash.

3. The guide number of the flash drops to a miniscue 8 (metres, ISO 100) at 1/250 sec.

4. As for TTL flash without evaluative metering (e.g. Leica M6TTL and M7), it's vastly overrated. I have managed to do without it for decades - and I do a lot of fill flash outdoors.

[Mazurka]

Okay, I'll bite.

1. You have to use the humongous Metz 54 MZ-3.

2. There is no flash metering at all - not from the body, not from the flash.

3. The guide number of the flash drops to a miniscue 8 (metres, ISO 100) at 1/250.

4. As for TTL flash without evaluative metering (e.g. Leica M), it is vastly overrated. Many people have done well without it. I use non-TTL auto for decades and frequently in fill flash.

I'll take 1/125 REAL SYNC SPEED over HSS anytime of the day, thank you.

[Mazurka]

Sorry for the double post - browser trouble.

[sgy1962]

I say over 90% of Leica rangefinder photography is w/o flash. It is the essence of available light photography.

I don't believe anyone is saying that the ZI is or will be better then the Leica M. We really won't know until the camera is out for a bit. But it does look like you will get more bang for the buck w/ the ZI then w/ a new Leica M. The same appears true for their lenses. We'll see.

It appears that the ZI viewfinder -- which is huge (think high eyepoint) -- will be much nicer for eyeglass wearers then the Leica M options of a 0.72 viewfinder or a 0.58 one. I have handled both, and own a 0.72 Leica M, wear eyeglasses, and both viewfinders have their limitations -- w/ the 0.72 it is hard to see the 35mm and 28mm framelines and with the 0.58 everything is so small, which makes focusing just a little more difficult and less accurate for some lenses. So you see it is a choice between compromises, which the ZI solution eliminates (I think).

In fact, I predict that if the ZI is well built, many Leica M users who wear glasses will pick one up.

[back alley]

mommy, what's a flash?

[FrankS]

You don't have a Canon flash yet, Joe?

[vincentbenoit]

have you ever thought about how much we use the flash.Yes, as far as I'm concerned, never. Available light rules.
Cheers
Vincent

[jbw]

mommy, what's a flash?
__________________
canons all - p - ivsb & lll with 28/3.5 - 35/2 - 35/2.8 - 50/1.8 - 50/1.9 - 85/2 - 100/3.5

backalley sessions l my gallery


you guys are so much fun... sitting here at work this one made me laugh out loud..

joanie

[back alley]

frank, sadly i must admit that i have no canon flash.

i do have a flash, i always own a flash but i never use a flash.

i just bought that really neat little bounce flash that even has an auto setting (or 2) on it. and there are always frash batteries in it.
just don't use it.

and yes, my therapy sessions ARE long.

joe

[FrankS]

and yes, my therapy sessions ARE long.

Have you addressed your aversion to capitalization yet? That's got to go back to an embarassing incident with a girl in the cloakroom in Grade 1, right?

[back alley]

i believe it was grade 3.

capitals are bourgeois.

conventional: typical of affluent middle-class people, who are often characterized as conventional, conservative, or materialistic in outlook


joe

[Doug]

Well, at least the Z-I will have a higher X-sych speed than the Leicas... for whatever value that has. None, in my case, and my M2 (which I've had since 1967) still has the special Leica flash sockets with their plastic plugs, never used. When I got my Minolta CLE (which has pretty sophisticated TTL flash control) and Pentax Auto 110 kits new they included dedicated flash units that have yet to be used. I tried the popup flash on my Fuji GA645 once and didn't like the results. And so it goes... flashless!

I won't deny the value of flash, for others. For my puposes, though, I like the look of the light already in place.

[FrankS]

i believe it was grade 3.

capitals are bourgeois.
joe

You are so like HCB! Not only do you also not do your own darkroom printing, but (I think) it was HCB who said "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept."

[Peter]

Who needs flash! Use a fast lens instead! :p

[Flinor]

mommy, what's a flash?

Joe, I'm sure I have a flash around here somewhere. If I can ever find it, I'll take an available light picture and send it to you.

Or, to put it another way: Flashes? We don't need no steeenking flashes.

[back alley]

You are so like HCB! Not only do you also not do your own darkroom printing, but (I think) it was HCB who said "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept."


in the words of woody allan, 'everybody needs a role model'

joe;)

and i know how to print frank, if i say so myself i was pretty good at it too!

[FrankS]

Just kidd'n ya, Joe! :)

[back alley]

i figured...

[aoresteen]

I do use flash. I have a number AG-1 flash bulb units that work just fine. Is a Minolta 16 a Rangefinder?

[Socke]

My father once said, "if you want flash, take a Nikon. That's what they are made for".

Another thing he liked to say "Alles kalter Kaffee!" which is a curteous way to say that something is old and boring bull....

http://www.hett.org/web/files/0001/img014.jpg

Contax 167MT, Planar 50/1.7, Metz 30BCT reflected from a white napkin held by the waitress

[Doug]

Now that's a nice way to use flash, Socke! Very natural looking. :)

[wlewisiii]

I had to use flash this past weekend for the first time in about a year. I had ISO100 Fuji Realia loaded in my Iskra and needed a couple of handheld indoors shots. It's a little old Sunpak Auto 121S with a built in PC cord. I'll get the film back on Friday, so I'll know then how well it works.

Would have rather been doing Tri-X@1600 sans flash, but Grandparents like color. Hope they can live with the 5x5s I'm having printed... :D

William

[Jason_K]

mommy, what's a flash?

It's something people with SLRs use. :p

[Mike Kovacs]

Maybe count me in as a minority but a Leica or a Z-I has to be the stupidest platform to use a flash on. I tend to only use fill flash unless we are talking about studio where the 35mm stuff doesn't even come out.

In my mindset, 35mm rangefinders with fast lenses are for available light shooting with slow shutter speeds. If I need a flash with 35mm, my Nikon SLRs are the tool.

[Bertram2]

mommy, what's a flash?

HCB would have said on a RF ist is a "bourgeois concept " ;)
I once bought a nice Metz for the R, I used it twice during the last 3 years, and I did not like the results very much. Maybe for fill-in against the light, but this often looks unnatural too.
Best,
bertram

[phototone]

Well I use flash, but don't see the need for TTL metering,etc. on a rangefinder. For my nighttime views (see my gallery) sometimes I use a little fill flash, but not sync'd to the camera, It is night, so I have a 1 sec or longer exposure time (camera on tripod, cable release, etc). I just yell at my buddy "FIRE!!" when the shutter is open. Works almost every time.
Besides on some of the old cameras I like to use there is no flash sync.

In the studio, with studio strobes, it doesn't matter what the shutter speed is, as long as it sync's with the flash. Modeling lights are dim in comparison to the output of the strobes.

Never did like on-camera flash.

[phototone]

err....I mean't TTL "FLASH" metering. I do like the available light metering on my M6, Bessa R, and Bessa R2a.

[sockeyed]

I think that there's a place for flash. I rarely use mine, and I don't think that I've ever had it on my Bessas, but flash has really made some pictures for me.

Here's a portrait using my Canon F-1 and either my 85/1.8 or 135/3.5. No sophisticated TTL or anything, I just pointed the flash vertically and bounced the light off a white card mounted on the flash and the white ceiling. To me, flash works best when you don't notice that it's being used.

[Doug]

Sockeyed, good example! That would be my kind of flash too...

[snaggs]

Flash is very usefull for equalising light. For example, taking a group photo at the dinner table under a porch with bright sun outside. Using a bounce flash I can increase the ambient light level at the table to match the outside, so that you can see the lovely scenery in the distance rather than just big slabs of white.

I think some people who use Leica's just bag the flash since they dont have the knowledge or skill to use it effectively. If you flash shots look terrible, its not the flashes fault.

Daniel.

[Brian Sweeney]

Anyone who can use an all manual camera such as a Leica can figure out how to use a flash. The Leica M cameras have a top sync speed of 1/50th. That gets a bit rough using outdoor fill flash. I used Kodachrome 25 and Panatomic-X with my Nikon F (1/60th) and a Vivitar 283 for most of my outdoor fill-flash shots. Those days are gone.

Flash sensors, TTL or otherwise, can be fooled by scene content as are light meters. If you want to try a camera "made to use with a flash", try a Canonet or Minolta Hi-Matic 9 or other fixed-lens camera with follow-focus and leaflet shutter. X-Sync is at any speed, and it uses the distance to set aperture. The Canonet QL17 G3 reads out the F-Stop used, and will add in the exposure value picked up by the meter if left in "auto". You can change the shutter speed to get the balance of natural light and flash.

Leica did make an M-Mount Summicron with a Built in Compur shutter so that it could be used up to 1/500th of a second with flash. It is very rare. But who says Leica did not make a lens to be used with a flash...

[Bertram2]

I think some people who use Leica's just bag the flash since they dont have the knowledge or skill to use it effectively. If you flash shots look terrible, its not the flashes fault.

Daniel.
Rather because the sync time of 1/60 is a PIA I suppose. It DOES need a lot of expereince and knowledg to get an unobtrousively balanced photo with a flash but it's sometimes the only way to get extreme contrasts of under control-

And it is simple: Those who make available light beeing their religion MISS such photos. Basta. And i have missed to many meanwhile that I now begin to deal seriously to deal with the fillflash issue.

Regards,
Bertram

[Mazurka]

Those who make available light beeing their religion MISS such photos.

Their bible has a serious omission - flash is available light too!

Daylight fill flash can be done on the Leica M without too much trouble, provided you use very slow film or an 8x ND filter and a powerful flash. Heck - I got 4X ND for my SLRs too, none of which sync slower than 1/125. Apply the Sunny f/16 Rule and you'll see why. :cool:

This page is indispensible for understanding daylight fill flash: http://www.dantestella.com/technical/fill.html

[Brian Sweeney]

Just like to add that the Leica MP does not offer TTL Flash metering. It does have a TTL light meter. It is closer to the M6 classic in features in that regard.

http://www.leica-camera.com/produkte/msystem/mp/tecdat/index_e.html

1/60th, F8, ASA100 film
Nikon F, 43~86 Nikkor-C Zoom, SB15 flash

[XAos]

It's only available if you bring it in the first place.

I'm learning manual flash now, and I'm really wishing my HiMatic 9 were working. The GSN does a fine job but I'm never quite sure what it's doing with that shutter other than I'm somewhere between 1/500th and 1/30th.