View Full Version : Forget Film vs. Digital; try Carbon Fiber vs. Steel!
amateriat
08-26-2009, 21:20
Now, I know articles like this (http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/blog/why-you-should-be-riding-steel-and-not-carbon/) are written largely to get people out of their seats–sort of like wearing a leather bomber jacket to a PETA rally–and banging away at the keyboard...in fact, I can't remember when this site ever had an entire piece on steel road bike frames, let alone one that held the current love-fest for carbon in question. But it did point out the occasional problems involved in choosing a bike for long-term riding as opposed to just going for the flavor-of-thee-month number on the shop rack.
I'm big on longevity...one of my bikes (my Alex Moulton AM14S) just passed its 24th year with me. Materials development have made considerable strides since I bought that bike; CF and titanium frames were available back then, but the materials were hard to work with and scary-expensive, whereas now they are refined contenders. None of this, however, changes the relationship I have with this bike. I can put forth my reasons for preferring steel (long-term reliability topping the list), but in the end it's not just the material used, but how it's used.
An interesting debate, this. And no clear-cut answer, as with a number of debates I'm familiar with. :D
- Barrett
My "other expensive hobby" - to quote the wife. The oldest bike I have currently in use is my 30 year old Raleigh Competition with Campag parts and still going strong. It is also the only bike I have with derailleur gears as I prefer riding fixed. I remember in the early days of carbon frames the glue used to fail quite regularly and in a spectacular fashion!
I have always preferred the strength and longevity of a steel frame with beautiful lug work. Infact I have just bought a new Charge Plug Grinder fixie for a winter run about, all steel and soaks up the urban pot holes beautifully.
I'll leave carbon to the Pro's who make a living out of cycling and need the power to weight advantage.
Dave Wilkinson
08-26-2009, 22:41
My "other expensive hobby" - to quote the wife. The oldest bike I have currently in use is my 30 year old Raleigh Competition with Campag parts and still going strong. It is also the only bike I have with derailleur gears as I prefer riding fixed. I remember in the early days of carbon frames the glue used to fail quite regularly and in a spectacular fashion!
I have always preferred the strength and longevity of a steel frame with beautiful lug work. Infact I have just bought a new Charge Plug Grinder fixie for a winter run about, all steel and soaks up the urban pot holes beautifully.
I'll leave carbon to the Pro's who make a living out of cycling and need the power to weight advantage. As a one-time builder of Reynolds tube frames, and thinking of making a trike - for my old age, I'll still use the rod and torch. The lug work on my old 'Hetchins' ( 'Experto Credo'and 'Magnum Opus' ) still gets admiration on their occasional outings.:)
Dave.
Its interesting Barrett,
though i agree about the durability i tend to think if its a Racer style of bike as opposed to some other type of 'cruiser' then the carbon bike would be the bike to choose, it is for me anyway. a racer i like to go fast, or at least try to go fast lol..i still have three bikes, one, in its day a near top of the range steel bike, or a mixture of metals i think it actually is, that is a few decades old, still works fine, still a very good bike and up until a couple of years ago before i gave it to one of my sons to use for commuting still looked a million dollars (i always looked after my bikes) with its metallic red and black marbled paintjob, he treats it without any particular care, even had an accident some time back now when he came off it going round a corner on a wet road, the bike undamaged but he spent the night in hospital via an ambulance.
an aluminium bike that cost more than some cars, it works fine as well but definately not my favourite, they make the tubes bigger diameter to make up strentgh so they just dont feel as nice...then my carbon bike, its had to have a cable guide repaired but otherwise it is quite solid and strong, i wouldnt agree with the article that things cant be done up tight on it for fear of crushing or cracking the carbon...though at the same time i dont jump gutters (most of the time!) on this and try to avoid any large pot holes! i am also more careful when, where and how i put it down, make sure i wrap a cloth around it if carrying on a rear bike-rack, not that i treat my other bikes by throwing them down anywhere.
however it is such a sweet ride, much softer (less vibration/shock) that it is a real pleasure to ride over long distance, its so light i can pick it up with one finger thats makes it pleasant if you have been riding all day and have that hill still to climb at the end of the day, it takes off from a standing start like a rocket that is just amazing compared to my other bikes. the difference is very noticeable, its like comparing a Ferrari to a toyota corolla with speed, even me now that i am getting older i can still beat my sons taking off with this if they are riding the steel bikes (hehe)
so all things considered, though i appreciate the steel bikes for duability (wish my son would look after my old steel one better) the carbon bike is MUCH nicer to ride, both in comfort of ride, personal endurance and sheer speed :D
at the end of day just so long as ya gota bike is all that matters though eh!
Ah yes, 'tis a thing of beauty, a Curly Hetchins frame.
Dave - must be quite a feeling knowing so many of the frames you built will be giving joy and long service to riders for many years to come.
amateriat
08-26-2009, 23:49
Andrew: I know the benefits of a good carbon ride. I got to take little roll on a 16lb wonder, dripping with Campy. Very cool, very quick, and (rare for a CF bike, IMO) rather easy on the eyes. But I can't deal too well with the mental "ifs" in living with such a bike: what if I lay it down in a crash that's not bad enough to bang it up much, but might have compromised the frame/fork's integrity? What if some klutz knocks it off a roof rack to the ground? What if I do something stupid while I've got the thing clamped in a work stand? (Assuming it fits in the stand...my current Park stand won't work with any of the wilder designs of late.) What if I throw the chain and make a mess of the finish on the right chain stay?
My current steel go-fast ride clocks in at around 19lbs...the lightest road bike I've ever owned, a little old-school (lugged Reynolds 531C frame with classic stage-racing geometry, Shimano DA down-tube shifters) and not-quite-old-school (Shimano Ultegra 9-speed group, Ritchey OCR aero wheelset, Cane Creek 200sl brakes and SCR-5 levers). I think the thing's a rocket sled when I'm on it, and it has a tight but smooth road feel. A contemporary carbon ride might improve my "experience" a notch or two in a few areas, no doubt, but the gestalt of a great ride is already there. (And, of course, it's paid for.)
And I haven't even touched on the matter of the Moulton...
- Barrett
I think we are on the same page Barrett,
i do get where your coming from, and ,if, i was buying a new bike today, presumably to last my days (not racing compet), i would seriously consider a 'modern' steel frame bike, assuming i could find one in a store or a local maker or supplier (and we have down the road from me the australian velodrome where the Oz olympic team frequents) . its probably why i mentioned the durability and abuse my steel bike gets from a teenager that didn't have to save his money to buy 'my' bike like i did but it still appears to be in fine structural condition, it would be reasonable to think that the carbon bike wouldn't put up with the same abuse!
having said that however, my other son, whom seems to have only two major problems in life, he cant catch a fish to save his life, when everyone else around him is filling their bag, and he is prone to bicycle accidents! one day he neglected (as far as i could tell) to properly secure the front wheel after a service (we have those work stations as well), the wheel came off, he crashed, walked home scraped up as usual-tough kid (young man really). but what he (or I) didnt see (because there was nothing to see) was the metal was fatigued or cracked or something, so a few weeks later he had another crash and tumble because the steel forks gave way!
i understand where your coming from with the "if's" and i think particularly in the beginning (i have had the carbon bike for a few years now) i was very worried myself, but it has stood up to me and time very well so far. our roads are less than perfect in oz, i do try and miss (or jump) pot holes but it happens, i jump gutters at times (cant avoid it sometimes) and often put it up on one wheel (so easy with a light bike and low gear ratio's--just fun) just for the hell of it. so far the bike, forks and everything have stood up quite well i am not concerned now. i reckon when carbon was in the early days it had more of problem with durability or being damaged/fatigued but perhaps less so now. some klutz off the roof rack doesnt worry me, either i do it or its so light they cant drop it anyway, luckily my bike is conventional in design so it fits in the service clamps (not so my other off road bike! strange shape that is!)
mine is a bit less than 16lb, closer to 15lb really, not that weight is everything, in my case it just turned out that way..i tested a bunch of bikes and thats the one that felt good...different but good, feels like a sports car, pretty smooth (softer than steel) over a normal road surface, a bit tight and sharp (responsive?) in other areas
steel vs carbon i wouldnt like to argue, that wasnt a major factor to my choice (but because the steel bikes available to me at the time were just awkward heavy in comparison!), though i did imagine at the time that carbon might be like chalk, thats has turned out to be no problem. i chose what felt good, the weight influenced me but the feel of the ride was what mattered
i could not of imagined i would of been speaking about bikes haha:D fun though!
Dave Wilkinson
08-27-2009, 04:35
Ah yes, 'tis a thing of beauty, a Curly Hetchins frame.
Dave - must be quite a feeling knowing so many of the frames you built will be giving joy and long service to riders for many years to come.I did'nt build many Andy, but in my time trialing days - I stopped about twelve years back, I was kept quite busy building wheels - everythng from radial spoking to four-cross, for tourers, and a few trikes! - the jig is still bolted to my bench!.
The problem these days - now I am retired - is no oxy-acetylene gear on hand!, for frame work, but a trike has long been on my wish list, and the axle parts, hubs etc will not be a problem as I have my own lathe and miller still. But the chances of me getting under the hour again, for a twenty five are a lot slimmer!!:D
Dave.
Hah. It's nothing without adding suspension into the mix! Be glad you're only talking road bikes.
Mountain bikers are funny. With traditional skinny-tube road (and mountain) frames, you tend to have a real "feel of steel" compared to, say, AL or even CF. (Ti being another "feel" the sensitive derrier claims to be able to distinguish). But once you make everything massively oversized/ovalized/etc. as most MTBs are, the design is just as important as the material in determining how something feels, and most people are regurgitating marketing or outdated convention instead of discerning any real difference.
Then throw in the wheel size debates...small 24"s used to be the rage against the 26" standard...now it's big (and weak, especially with disc brakes!) 29"ers.
And then you get people riding $5500 29" Jones Space Frames. (Really want to try one of these to see if it's just the lack of money making people giddy, or if they're really that good.)
And this is just in the hardtail world. Wait until you argue suspension designs! Different shocks! Air vs. Coil/Oil! Ugh. Nowadays I just want to ride my bike.
And so I just built up a rigid singlespeed to complement my fully-suspended (but ultra-traditional as F/S bikes go) 38-lb Turner RFX...
amateriat
08-27-2009, 08:54
Hah. It's nothing without adding suspension into the mix! Be glad you're only talking road bikes.
Ah, but my Moulton has full f/r suspension for those 17" wheels. You should've seen the looks I got when I first rolled up for a club ride on that. :p
Mountain bikes? I've only owned one (a very nice Trek 850 I bought new in '84), and rode it for a year. Between hooking up with a few frame-trashing berserker friends, and some life-in-my-own-hands off-road experiences (and they still tell me I'm a nutjob for riding the street and open road), I decided sticking mostly to tarmac was the better long-term bet.
- Barrett
No way, man! Road = high speed, asphalt, 21mm tires, no protection, and cars! I'm far safer on dirt riding a suspended bike with 2.5" double-ply tires, wearing gladiator armor and a full-face helmet and jumping off 3m ledges!
I like road, but it's frankly a bit dicey for me. Your friends are RIGHT.
amateriat
08-27-2009, 14:52
No way, man! Road = high speed, asphalt, 21mm tires, no protection, and cars! I'm far safer on dirt riding a suspended bike with 2.5" double-ply tires, wearing gladiator armor and a full-face helmet and jumping off 3m ledges!
I like road, but it's frankly a bit dicey for me. Your friends are RIGHT.
Look at it this way: to many a non-cyclist, we're both mad as a balloon. :D
- Barrett
Truer words never spoken.
I made it to the top of the mountain and back this morning on my rigid singlespeed. Mostly paved, some potholed, a few dirt roads and ribbons of singletrack. Best ride in a long time, and I passed motorcycles on the tarmac on my way down.
J'aime les velos!
OK, steel vs. carbon was one thing.
But what about maple vs. spruce?? (http://www.renovobikes.com/)
OK, steel vs. carbon was one thing.
But what about maple vs. spruce?? (http://www.renovobikes.com/)
Now THAT is bike porn! Maple and red cedar, please. :)
amateriat
08-30-2009, 09:21
OK, steel vs. carbon was one thing.
But what about maple vs. spruce?? (http://www.renovobikes.com/)
Amazing, and gorgeous. I think I know which one Howard Hughes would've picked. ;)
But never mind the bikes; the shoes (http://www.exitshoes.com/exit/2008/06/29/pair-number-25/comment-page-1/#comment-67). Have you checked out these clip-and-strap-specific custom shoes!? (Be prepared for some serious sticker-shock, however.)
- Barrett
Steel for me please: any fibre reinforced resin composite has a nasty habit of not showing any signs of damage when damaged, and you will only know when a catastrophic failure hits... taking you with it. As long as my Frankenbike "The Green Thingy" (Reynolds 753 frame) looks alright it will be alright... fingers crossed.
There is no controversy there. Anyone who thinks steel frames are inferior to carbon fiber or any other material is either ignorant or in denial :) (kind of.)
On another forum, a guy asked for recommendations for a starter road bike. Several people told him to look for an older used steel frame instead of the used Cannondale he was considering. The guy could not wrap his head around the fact that a steel frame would be a better choice than aluminum, and that steel frames are still being made. That kind of ignorance is apalling, and a testament to the idiocy published in "enthusiast" mags. That's where arguments about what is "better" come from - ignorance and marketing mis-information. The joker bought his Cannondale, and I'm sure he has given up road biking by now because his ass hurts lol.
Cromoly frames only for me. A carbon dirt bike would be a waste of money, material, and human flesh. I own a 20" Gary Fisher and a 24" Mongoose, and wouldn't trade them for anything. I'd like to get a clean basic road bike again, but steel for sure. If my body can take it my bike sure as hell better be able to, and I don't like the idea of riding something that fails by breaking rather than bending.
But I have to ask - how does one ride a road bike in the city and *not* hop curbs and pot holes? You can't dodge them all, and hopping them is half the fun :)
Saying "cromo only" is just as bad as saying "carbon fiber only." And so much is in the design as much as the material.
And there have been excellent carbon fiber offroad frames. BCD bikes built custom-geometry downhill race bikes out of carbon fiber, and they were some of the toughest things out there. (Large-diameter, thick,wrap-lugged CF tubes.) Lahar out of New Zealand built some amazing CF frames as well...a little more refined-looking, even.
There is no controversy there. Anyone who thinks steel frames are inferior to carbon fiber or any other material is either ignorant or in denial :) (kind of.)
On another forum, a guy asked for recommendations for a starter road bike. Several people told him to look for an older used steel frame instead of the used Cannondale he was considering. The guy could not wrap his head around the fact that a steel frame would be a better choice than aluminum, and that steel frames are still being made. That kind of ignorance is apalling, and a testament to the idiocy published in "enthusiast" mags. That's where arguments about what is "better" come from - ignorance and marketing mis-information. The joker bought his Cannondale, and I'm sure he has given up road biking by now because his ass hurts lol.
Cromoly frames only for me. A carbon dirt bike would be a waste of money, material, and human flesh. I own a 20" Gary Fisher and a 24" Mongoose, and wouldn't trade them for anything. I'd like to get a clean basic road bike again, but steel for sure. If my body can take it my bike sure as hell better be able to, and I don't like the idea of riding something that fails by breaking rather than bending.
But I have to ask - how does one ride a road bike in the city and *not* hop curbs and pot holes? You can't dodge them all, and hopping them is half the fun :)
This is the same sort of ignorance that get people to keep getting new things because... nobody makes film anymore... etc.
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