RFF build an RF project? Digital perhaps? [Archive]

atelier7

06-16-2005, 05:25

Hello all,
Wondering when will we see some members of this forum come together to build a camera that captures the best of our favourite RF cams? Perhaps a digital one at that? and to be able to do it such that everyone on this forum who wants one can afford to buy one?

jlw

06-16-2005, 09:16

...um, never?

Somehow I suspect that if building a functional, affordable digital RF camera were a do-it-yourself project, companies such as Leica wouldn't be having so much trouble doing it.

back alley

06-16-2005, 09:32

do you mean, in theory, on paper?

that might be an interestiong thread for sure.
but a real life user?
a bit tougher...

joe

dmr

06-16-2005, 09:43

Perhaps a digital one at that? and to be able to do it such that everyone on this forum who wants one can afford to buy one?

I would be interested in one that had something like a digital back as an option, kind of like digital as one film choice -- one that could easily be upgraded when the sensor or the electronics became obsolete.

The main feature that would sell me on a RF camera would be some kind of a thing for coupling a zoom lens to the rangefinder/viewfinder. Point-and-shoot cameras have this. The thing I like best about the zoom on the Pentax is the one-hand push-pull to zoom and twist to focus. If that kind of action could be coupled to a rangefinder mechanism it would be super.

Also, and I know I'm pushing things, some way of coupling a polarizer to the viewfinder so you could twist it and see the effect.

Yeah I know, I'm dreaming. :)

bmattock

06-16-2005, 10:10

I think it would be easier if Jorge could convince Stephen Gandy to convince Kobayashi-san to make us a 'special' run of say, R-RFF rangefinders. That should be do-able, several high-end watch manufacturers made a special run for the folks over at www.timezone.com. We'd have to commit to buying some minimum number, I'm guessing.

Fun, too. I'd have to sell some more stuff to be able to afford it, but I'd do my best!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

DougK

06-16-2005, 11:16

I agree with Bill, designing a camera isn't like putting together a computer from off-the-shelf parts (unless we wanted to stick a rangefinder on top of a pinhole camera or create a very basic view camera).

It'd be pretty cool to have a Bessa R with the RFF logo on it. Take THAT, collectible Leica fans! :)

Kin Lau

06-16-2005, 11:32

When... never sounds about right :)

Hacking FSU RF's is more likely/possible/affordable. I'd love to put a film advance lever on a Kiev (yes I know about the Kiev 5) or even wide angle "goggles" for the VF.

A 4x5 RF with a scanning back might be doable... maybe hack a Polaroid and a 5x7 scanner together for that.

RML

06-16-2005, 21:29

I don't know if any of our American brethren know this company but CVS makes a disposable digicam that goes for $30. It seems to include a preview screen. I guess a specimen could be sacrifised and butchered to make the innards of a digital rusky cam.

I like the idea of a special edition Bessa. Leica Hermes or Bessa RFF... hmmm, choices, choices.... :p

cp_ste.croix

06-16-2005, 21:59

As an English graduate I will volunteer my skills toward...uhhh.....well, i could....erm.... help write the manual???

I like the idea of a special run RFF camera...how sweet would that be? (does this make me an official forum dork? I have quit video games for this site...) :)

jaapv

06-17-2005, 00:42

There used to be- about five years ago- a digital "module" by Imagex consisting of a film-cassette shaped electronic part with a sensor sticking out to the film aperture. Maybe that idea could be revived?

RML

06-17-2005, 00:54

Jaap, "digital film" died a silent death a long time ago. :)

jorisbens

06-17-2005, 01:29

atelier7

06-17-2005, 01:58

haahaa... while the rest of you were distracted by my initial post ... i snuck in the 35mm classifieds and bought the silver hexar :p

ok, so maybe a digital zorki is too difficult.
but what about a special edition RFF Bessa L? its cheap, so more of us who want it can afford it. only issue is u cant use any wide angle ruski lenses on it which then brings up the cost of purchasing an L.

or perhaps we can take a leaf from the lomo people's books and find some deadstock new ruski cameras...

i think i got it... paper pinhole... dirkon? :p

taffer

06-17-2005, 02:00

A black RFF special edition Nikon SP would be nice...

ANY Nikon SP would be nice !!!! :D

Azinko

06-17-2005, 02:02

Any time now the Nikon D50 digital Slr will launch in the US for about UD$ 450, it has the same 6 meg sensor as teh D70 and the Epson R-D1. This provides a cheap sacfificial lamb to convert quality RF's to digital and it is probably only a short time before someone starts to offfer this commercially.

The work would entail removing the back/LCD/sensor from the D50 and fitting into the modified body of the Leica M6/M7 or Cosina RD3 etc...plus any new controls as required by the layout of the host camera.

Then again, how much longer will it be before Cosina bring out their own digital RF ?........The reason they have not yet done so is probably because of a time period agreement with Epson during the design of R-D1. It would seem likely that this period was a year or perhaps two,...so it may not be long now before we see new digtial RF's from both Cosina and Epson. Epson will try to keep their (high) price differential so may offer an 8 meg sensor for same price or little cheaper and Cosina will probably offer the 6 meg for a bargain price,....probably around 600 to 700 US$

RML

06-17-2005, 02:12

Then again, how much longer will it be before Cosina bring out their own digital RF ?........The reason they have not yet done so is probably because of a time period agreement with Epson during the design of R-D1. It would seem likely that this period was a year or perhaps two,...so it may not be long now before we see new digtial RF's from both Cosina and Epson. Epson will try to keep their (high) price differential so may offer an 8 meg sensor for same price or little cheaper and Cosina will probably offer the 6 meg for a bargain price,....probably around 600 to 700 US$

Mr "Cosina" Kobayashi is known to be no fan of digital. I doubt Cosina will come out with a digital RF of its own very soon.

Azinko

06-17-2005, 02:20

RML

06-17-2005, 03:17

"....
Mr "Cosina" Kobayashi is known to be no fan of digital...."

I'm sure you're right, but he is also quite a sharp minded gentleman and not adverse to good business decisions,.....and he has already helped and co-operated with Epson to do just that.

Ah, but helping a hand is quite different from doing it all yourself. And yes, Mr K seems indeed a sharp minded entrepeneur but one with some principles he'll stick to. So, perhaps no digital Voigtlander but I wouldn't be surprised to see Cosina enter some other digital (ad)venture with another player in the market.

atelier7

06-17-2005, 03:19

if cosina does come up with a "budget" version of the RD1... how many of us here will abandon our film based RFs for one? Or will film cameras still get your vote?

RML

06-17-2005, 03:25

if cosina does come up with a "budget" version of the RD1... how many of us here will abandon our film based RFs for one? Or will film cameras still get your vote?

I already gave up film for the not-so-budget R-D1. Can you imagine what could happen if there would be a budget one? :p

jaapv

06-17-2005, 03:55

I can remember the digital-film thingie, such a thing would be awesome. But It's (almost) impossible to create, because of the thickness of a digital sensor, so the sensor to flange distance wouldn't be same as the film to flange distance, so correct focussing is impossible, IMHO.

Joris Bens :cool:
Not if you remove the film pressure plate. An M camera has an interchangable back anyway.The main problem is the sensor , which cannot accept the oblique angle of light from RF lenses witout some serious tweaking. See the vignetting of WA lenses on the RD1.It was this that made Leica put off the digital M for so long. Now that Kodak-Imacon seem to have licked the problem I'm sure the viewfinder is causing some serious headaches in Solms.
The acceptance angle problem is 99% sure to dictate a 1.3 crop sensor maximally, so the viewfinder will have to be suitable for lenses from 28 to 180 mm (21 to 135 ,35 mm equivalent) Nobody has yet been able to do that. It would take at least a 80 mm measuring base to get decent focussing. I'm sure the Heinzelmännchen are busy chipping away at that one.

jaapv

06-17-2005, 04:05

Jaap, "digital film" died a silent death a long time ago. :)

As far as I recall it died without even drawing breath.... :angel:

Honu-Hugger

06-20-2005, 12:44

dmr

06-20-2005, 13:10

Ironic to stumble across this thread; just last week I was imagining if a 24x36 sensor ever became available that could be fitted to any existing 35mm camera in place of the pressure plate, even if it meant having the back radically modified to incorporate it. What a great way to breathe digital life into so many old film cameras...

Or, how about this? Have a sensor such as that with the electronics in a package that's the size of a standard 35mm cartridge. I know this would be very challenging to design, but I'm sure it would sell. I might even buy one. :)

varjag

06-21-2005, 02:14

Some weeks ago I've been pondering about possibility of a digital back for Kiev/Contax. Their backs are fully removable and no fixed take-up spool except on the M models (could be e.g. additional space for batteries). Shutter release could be read via flash synch cable, and the sensor could be installed within/in place of film pressure plate.

But the electronics/firmware part is where the most problems would probably be. It is likely that the CCD circuitry is very dependent on physical aperture and/or shutter speed readings.. permanently setting the system into full manual/no metering mode could help but it would still be a non-trivial task to make it all work.

So, unless I suddenly stumble upon a broken DSLR, my hardware project for now is a rewind crank for 4A :)

atelier7

06-21-2005, 03:39

this is probably OT, but arrrrrrrrrgh! what's this DSLRexchange link that Brian posted?
An alternate parallel universe where its SLRs instead of RFFDRs.... and Digital instead of Film?
and to find quite a few familiar names posting there? nee noo nee noo nee noo nee noo...
twilight zone music coming on .... spooky! :p

pvdhaar

06-22-2005, 00:34

Hmmm... I doubt that the DSLR-exchange is the dark side. I see so many posts about GAS attacks these days here on RFF that I can really sense the power of greed all over the place... Now if that ain't the dark side, I don't know what is!

And if you're still not convinced, think about this:

Did Luke Skywalker rely on a rangefinder to drop the bomb on the Death Star?

Nah, he used the FORCE!

RML

07-02-2005, 03:59

I found a bit more info on the digital video cam offered by CVS, mainly how it can be cracked and re-used:

http://www.maushammer.com/systems/cvscamcorder/flash.html

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/06/13/BUGO0D5OEG28.DTL&type=tech

Maybe some of you DIY fans can use this onfo to turn a Bessa or FED into a digicam. :)

Kin Lau

07-02-2005, 05:18

So, unless I suddenly stumble upon a broken DSLR, my hardware project for now is a rewind crank for 4A :)

Not quite broken, but a removeable digital back for the Nikon N90, a DCS420 like Brian's... only $20- so far. http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7527317391&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

hoot

07-05-2005, 09:00

I've never gotten the point of the Epson RD1. It turns a normal lens into a tele and a wideangle into a normal... so to shoot wideangle, you'd have to buy an expensive super-wideangle.

Then again, if you can afford the Epson, you can probably afford anything.

Speaking of tailored cameras, though, I'd love to see a 1:1 magnification viewfinder on a Leica... or a new fixed-lens rangefinder by Leica... or a non-SLR digicam with absolutely no lag whatsoever.

ScottS

07-05-2005, 10:15

Speaking of tailored cameras, though, I'd love to see a 1:1 magnification viewfinder on a Leica... or a new fixed-lens rangefinder by Leica... or a non-SLR digicam with absolutely no lag whatsoever.

Well on the subject of fantasy finders, how about a Canon VI-style multiple magnification finder with M6 framelines.

So we'd have a .5x mag view with 25-28-35 frames (the CV 25mm finder is .49x, so this isn't too far from that), and a 1x view with 50-90-135, and, of course, the 1.5x view for accurate focusing. Add a frameline switch like the Canon 7/Bessa R2 (or do it automatically if it's an M camera, using a 50-75 adapter for the 25 view).

I'm not sure how well the multi-magnification design would work with reflected framelines, though (and you'd have to have reflected framelines to allow for showing only one at a time).

(yes, I know I'm missing 75, and that 25 isn't on the M -- but with the .5x wide-only view, you could support a 24 or 25.)

Scott

RML

07-05-2005, 10:54

I've never gotten the point of the Epson RD1. It turns a normal lens into a tele and a wideangle into a normal... so to shoot wideangle, you'd have to buy an expensive super-wideangle.

The CV15 isn't really expensive at all at $345. Even the CV12 at $589 isn't too shocking. You won't get any wider and surely not at this price level.

Then again, if you can afford the Epson, you can probably afford anything.

Utter nonsense. The R-D1 is expensive for me but it is value for money. I shoot a lot, on average a roll a day, and a roll + development costs nearly 6 euro here. Add the time I need to spend scanning and I was easily convinced. It was a big chunk of money and I was lucky I could save and shrimp all of it without burdening my wallet too much. In a year's time I'll have money saved on this purchase.