Rangefinder half-frame?

[Dez]

This is probably an old question, but here goes anyway...
does anyone know of a half-frame camera that had a rangefinder?? I've seen loads of different VIEWfinder designs, and everyone loves the Pen F SLR series, but was there ever one with a real rangefinder? I have necver seen such a camera, and wonder why not.

Cheers,
Dez

[dovi]

http://www.subclub.org/shop/ricoh.htm

http://www.subclub.org/shop/halframe.htm




google

[Al Kaplan]

Before WW-II there was the Leica 72, and I think that Robot made a few models. Depth of field is so great with short focal length optics that guess focusing is fine with most half-frame cameras.

[Steve M.]

Two that I can think of. The Leica 72 (72 exposures on a 36 exp roll of film) and the Robot Royal. The Robot also had a spring auto film advance. I used to have one and wish I hadn't sold it. The Schneider lens was a wonder w/ build quality that made a Leica look like a Cosina. It was built more like a gun than a camera. Fantastic workmanship.

[CameraQuest]

The screw mount Leica 72 which was based upon the IIIc, the Nikon S3M, the prototype and more often found for very high priced fake production from parts Leica M4-22 and Leica M4P-22.

Stephen

[danwilly]

I found a japanese make at an auction (darned if I can remember the name) but it was a true rangefinder, half-frame. Paid $5 for it and sold it on ebay for $350, much to my surprise. To a guy in Japan of course.

[Dez]

I had forgotten about the Leica 72, probably because the prices these days are more apprporiate for small pieces of realestate than cameras, I guess. I remember talking with a friend of mine a few years back about his early experience as a camera salesman in Toronto, seeing strange Midland Leica 72's in his store- they just didn't sell at the time. If only..........

The Robot Royals, as far as I know were 24 x 24 or 24 x 36 format.

I checked Dovi's links, but didn't see anything with a rangefinder. what am I missing???

Cheers,

Dez

[ethics_gradient]

There's a half-frame Hexar RF, but only 50 were made.

I could be mistaken, but are the Olympus Pen (non-SLR ones) and Canon Demi's RF?

[Dez]

Nope. I think those are all just viewfinders. I figured one of the strange Russian ones might have an RF, but I haven't encountered one.

Cheers,
Dez

[Al Kaplan]

I think the 72 predated the III-C and was based on a III-A or III-B body.

Robot did make some half frame cameras but I can't remember if they were in the rangefinder Royal series, the scale focusing Star, or maybe both. They were made in Switzerland and the qualty was right up there with Alpa and Leica.

Does anybody know if the 250 exposure FF was ever made in a half frame 500 exposure version?

http://thepriceofsilver.blogspot.com

[schaubild]

Robot did make some half frame cameras but I can't remember if they were in the rangefinder Royal series, the scale focusing Star, or maybe both. They were made in Switzerland and the qualty was right up there with Alpa and Leica.



http://thepriceofsilver.blogspot.com

Actually I'd like to challenge that. Robots were built in Germany. Their construction was much more simple than almost anything Alpa and Leica ever did, they were positioned in a lower segment. And: they didn't have rangefinders. What was special with Robots was their rotation shutter.

Here a link to a German Robot fansite:
http://www.robot-camera.de

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_camera

[-doomed-]

What about the canon demi wasn't one of those a rangefinder?
The ee17 was an rf if what I've read is true

[Dez]

I'm pretty sure the Demis just had a viewfinder. The second window on the ee17 is the CdS cell. I have heard rumours of a rare Japanese half frame RF, but the only examples I can think of are the hyper-expensive and hyper-rare half frame versions of some high end RF cameras. I suspect they didn't do too well in the marketplace.

Cheers,
Dez

[Tom A]

There was a Canon Demi (cant remember the rest of the designatioN) that had a rangefinder in it. I had one for a while - but gave it to a friend who later gave it to someone in Russia. Not a bad camera at all, if I remember right.
Alpa also made several 1/2 frame cameras - though in very small quantities and I have seen their SLR Alpa 10S as a half-frame - not RF though.
It is interesting speculate as to what the market would be for a film-based 1/2 frame Rf today? Obviously not a huge volume - but something based on either the Bessa R or R2/3/4 with either LTM or M-bayonet would be feasible.
Modern films have gotten so good that the smaller negative size would be off-set by the better films - even a film like Tmax-2 400 would be fine-grained enough to do full frame prints on 11x14 without penalty.

[kbg32]

With all due respect Tom, unless you had some rare non production Demi, according to the Canon Musem site, no Demis were produced with a rangefinder. There was a Demi that had two interchangeable lenses, but they were distance focused, not rangefinder coupled. All Demis were zone focused.

http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/film/series_demi.html

[btgc]

I wonder - if HF were introduced to save on film (please correct me if I'm wrong) why anyone would spend extra on camera itself? Well, if lots of film is put through then expenses quickly could be dismissed. Though I guess that when one wanted to save, it did it twice - on film and camera. Isn't this part of reason why vast majority of HF cameras are scale focus?

Sure, dual format quality 24x36 cameras like Konica IIIM, Autoreflex and FT-1 were not supposed as cheapies, rather to offer natural vertical frame for people shots. This breed stands aside from half frame mainstream, I think, though are rather exceptions.

This days, I find native half-frames (with vertically oriented VF, that is) very good for people shots, despite smaller negative, which as Tom A. says, has become good enough.

[ZeissFan]

There's also the Ducati Sogno (http://elekm.net/pages/cameras/ducati.htm) -- probably among the most expensive of the half-frame cameras.

[daniel~]

Sure, dual format quality 24x36 cameras like Konica IIIM, Autoreflex and FT-1 were not supposed as cheapies, rather to offer natural vertical frame for people shots. This breed stands aside from half frame mainstream, I think, though are rather exceptions.

btgc, I didn't realise till now that, these dual format are all TOP models from my favorite brand.
By the way, recently I bought a couple of japanese books on half-frame, even though I don't have any.

Now I gotta get one!

[Al Kaplan]

The Robot Star series lacked a rangefinder but the Royal series were rangefinder cameras.

[Al Kaplan]

"Reversed Galilean" simply means that it's the opposite of telescope, making things smaller instead of larger. An ordinary viewfinder can have bright frames. That little circle is a CDS cell. The grid on the right covers the bright frames, which are projected onto the view like the bright frames in a Leica M.

[-doomed-]

I wasn't sure I just thought it had some sort of rudimentary rf on it. There's one In my local camera store

[delible]

Hello,

There isn't a rangefinder in the EE1.7 cameras that I know. You can set the distance pretty precisely by setting the distance on a scale surrounding the lens. When you do that, a fat needle under the bright frame in the VF moves from mountain (infinity) at the left to a head (2.6 ft) on the right. So it's the user setting the distance either on the scale around the lens or using the zones in the vf.

I had a longer post written but the site didn't recognize my previous login, required me to log in again, and everything was lost... so far now, I'll just stick with the particular question about the EE1.7. Hope this helps.

[shiro_kuro]

Here you go ... a half frame rangefinder :)

[1300Hz]

Here you go ... a half frame rangefinder :)

I saw one of those on the Bay a few months ago. Sold for more than US$ 50.000...

[ZeissFan]

Paying $50,000 for a camera is ludicrous. Of course, putting it into perspective, if you're a Wall Street trader, and you make $30 million a year, $50,000 probably doesn't seem like that much money.

But for many of us, $50,000 is a hell of a lot of money to spend on a camera.

[Al Kaplan]

It's a lot of money to spend on an automobile also.

[Brian Sweeney]

I've never seen a half-frame fixed-lens Rangefinder camera.

The Tessina is a Twin-Lens Reflex, and small frame size on 35mm film.

Oddly, there are 110 and 126 cameras with coupled rangefinders. But I can't think of any half-frame 35mm cameras with them. The Kodak Instamatic 500 was "going to be" a half-frame Retina, ended up as a 126 camera, no rangefinder.

[sevo]

I've never seen a half-frame fixed-lens Rangefinder camera.


Zeiss Ikon Tenax II. Not exactly half-frame (it was 24x24 square) and not fixed lens, though.

[Tom A]

With all due respect Tom, unless you had some rare non production Demi, according to the Canon Musem site, no Demis were produced with a rangefinder. There was a Demi that had two interchangeable lenses, but they were distance focused, not rangefinder coupled. All Demis were zone focused.

http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/film/series_demi.html

It is quite possible that it wasen't a Demi - but it was a Canon, it was 1/2 frame and it had a built in rangefinder! Too bad that is now somewhere east of the Urals (and it was 15 years ago too). I am by no means an expert on Canon's - like some of their stuff - but not all!

[Satumango]

I realize it a bit of an old thread, but anyway, there was one true halfframe Robot Royal rangefinder: the Royal 18.

To sum it up (and my apologies for being pedantic ;)):

Robot I, II, IIa, Junior, Star and all Star derivatives : 24x24mm with 26mm screwmount (although there was a small difference in pre-war and post-war mounts)

Robot Royal II: 24x24mm, no rangefinder and a *30mm* screwmount.

Robot Royal III: 24x24mm, with rangefinder and bayonet mount

Robot Royal 18: 18x24mm, with rangefinder and bayonet mount

Robot Royal 24: 24x24mm, with rangefinder and bayonet mount

Robot Royal 36: 36x24mm, with rangefinder and bayonet mount

And then there was the Recorder line, those where Royals with their
"top cut off" (so no rangefinder nor viewfinder) featuring removable backs and attachment for a motordrive, these were intended for industrial / scientific / security purposes and were available in a range of formats including 18x24.

You will also see Star derivatives without viewfinder, etc. Those were also used in industry/scientific applications. And if you see a Robot II without viewfinder, it's problably a wartime model for use in airplanes.

Incidently, Royals with a letter "a" (or alpha?) after the serial number also have the removable backs and motordrive attachment, according to the manual I dowloaded here:

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/robot/royal_robot/royal_robot.htm

For a complete lineup (I guess) with an estimate of their value and some pictures see:

http://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Berning-Robot/

For some more information and pictures, you can also take a look at http://corsopolaris.net/supercameras/robot/robot1.html (italian, but partly translated in english)

Hope that minimizes the confusion somewhat :D

[jsrockit]

I wish Voigtlander would make a half-frame rangefinder....