Using a 21 on an M7 or Zeiss Ikon

[mabelsound]

I've been mulling over an M7 for a long time. Currently I've got an R4A for when I want to shoot aperture priority, but its lack of 90 and 135 framelines is somewhat bothersome to me. The reason I have it, of course, is to use a 21 on, and I'm wondering if I can estimate FOV using the whole window on either the M7 or ZI. Absolute precision is not necessary, just a decent estimate.

I decided some time ago that I never want to use an accessory viewfinder again, and I'm stickin' to that!

If you have experience with this, please weigh in.

[Ken Tanaka]

If you can find an M7 with a 0.58 viewfinder I think you'll find that the main viewfinder's whole scene, from edge to edge, nicely matches a 21mm lens field of view. This is the technique I routinely use with M7 / 0.58 and 21mm. It's worked extremely well.

[mabelsound]

I'd lose the 135 with the .58, but it might be worth it! I only just got a 135 and will probably only use it occasionally.

And in fact there is a black .58 with winder at KEH for under $2000...

*examines checking account balance*

*changes mind*

[35mmdelux]

The M7 with a 0.58 viewfinder provides a (very) rough approximation of the 21mm.

I have an external VF in the bag in case I want precise framing.

[mabelsound]

Well, let me ask you all this. The reason I want the M7 is that, every time I want to shoot a film M-mount camera, even if I want AE, I usually reach for the M2. There is nothing at all wrong with the R4A--it's a great camera. But I LOVE the feel of the M2.

The M2 is the only Lecia I have ever touched, let alone owned. If I got an M7, would I immediately feel "at home"? I mean, is it up to the mechanical standards of the old Leicas? I don't live in a place where it's possible to go try some out.

[RichardB]

Before I would commit at least $2KUSD for an M7, I would venture to where I could try one.
In any event, i have two M7's and they work as good as any M.
They are both 0.85 finders and I use an external finder with my 21mm ASPH lens. While not as useful as a SLR, I would like to try a 0.58 before changing to eliminate the external finder. I find no defintive information or testing available that shows the actual registration difference when using a 21mm lens and either the 0.58 or external finder.
Note that most Leica 21mm finders are offset to account for the fact that the camera flash mount is offset from the lens centerline whereas Zeiss finders are not because the mount on a Zeiss M camera is not offset.
I am waiting for a set of registration shots to determine if the offset makes a difference.
Of course with a 0.58 finder there is no offset but I would still like to determine the registration.-Dick

[35mmdelux]

The widest framelines the .58 provides is 28mm, thus using the entire window probably comes closer to 24mm. You would be losing the full effect of the 21mm as it would be a guesstimate at best.

Is the M7 like the other Leicas? I think it is. I use the same Luigi half-case on the MP as I do on my M7 for instance. The M7 is to me a far easier camera to shoot. Switch it on and shoot.

It took a while for me to get used to the M7. Sold my first after a year. Two yrs later came across an M7 with .58 magnification, jumped on it, never looked back. For a 35mm Summi shooter, the .58 mag is a camera made in heaven.

[mabelsound]

I also like shooting a 35 or 50 without putting in my contact lenses...

At this point, I'm pretty committed to the idea. I'm going to make my RF rig a clone of my SLR rig: one digital and two film bodies. And then I'm gonna try to not desire cameras anymore, at least for a while, because with an M7 and M2 in my bag, what the hell else could I want?

Yes, I know, more lenses

[Double Negative]

I use the entire VF for the 2,8/25 Biogon ZM with the ZI... The 21 is quite a bit wider than that.

[sepiareverb]

21 is too wide for the .58 entire VF.

I've had a bunch of M7's, (currently 3- I've had & sold at least 3 others) and they are all individuals. They sound different, wind differently. Build is excellent on all I've used. The fiddliest thing with an M7 is the ISO/DX dial, dust gets under the dial and screws with things. Spinning the inner dial shoves the dust out of the way and things are fine for another while. Dis-assembling and cleaning that is one thing I'd love to learn how to do.

Not that you want to hear this but the new Leica aux VF's are much smaller than the older ones, and VERY solid. I use the 18 for my 24mm lens and have no fear of leaving it on the camera. Low profile and all metal.

[Krosya]

I use the entire VF for the 2,8/25 Biogon ZM with the ZI... The 21 is quite a bit wider than that.

Exactly!. When I had ZM25, I could get away just using Hexar RF - another lower max VF, similat to Leica .58. I do use it sometimes with 21mm lens too, but its more of a guess - I get much better/correct framing with extarnal VF.

[mabelsound]

Well, when you get down to it, I might actually end up just going with my SLR rig for 21 and wider, and selling my RF 21. Then I can get whatever RF magnification I like.

I really do dislike accessory finders, mostly because I don't like switching from RF to VF, and because the cameras slip very smoothly into the Domke without them.

[35mmdelux]

SLR rig for 21 and wider often suggested as the cheaper alternative, but not the best solution for avail darkness shooting -- although the wides are easier to hyper-focus.

[RichardB]

Well, when you get down to it, I might actually end up just going with my SLR rig for 21 and wider, and selling my RF 21. Then I can get whatever RF magnification I like.

I really do dislike accessory finders, mostly because I don't like switching from RF to VF, and because the cameras slip very smoothly into the Domke without them.

With an M7 you don't have to do that, hence my use of M7's with the 21mm ASPH.-Dick

[sahe69]

A couple of years ago I was also pondering between a new ZI and a lightly used M7, which I could have had at almost the same price as the ZI. Eventually I went for the ZI because I liked the VF and the feeling of it more, especially the shutter release. On M7 somehow the 'trigger feeling' does not match the other Leicas with mechanical shutters.

To me it's like buying shoes; there's no point in buying ones no matter how cool they look if the don't feel comfortable.

As far as the 21 accessory VF is concernced, it's of course a bit more awkward to use one than not, but once one has tried the Zeiss accessory VF, it's quickly forgotten. ;)

[nikonhswebmaster]

I decided some time ago that I never want to use an accessory viewfinder again, and I'm stickin' to that!

If you have experience with this, please weigh in.

You are making too much of a fuss for yourself. The 21 finders give you an accurate view of what you will get, not just the field of view, but the distortion and perspective. Finders are very natural in use, after 5 min you will wonder what you were worried about. I use finders on both 35 and 50 also.

[Tim Gray]

I need to pick up a .58 finder M7 at some point. I shoot enough 28mm that having two cameras both with .72 finders is a bit silly.

[mojobebop]

With an M7 you don't have to do that, hence my use of M7's with the 21mm ASPH.-Dick

thought m7's finder only accomodates down to 28mm,
w/out finder.

[RichardB]

thought m7's finder only accomodates down to 28mm,
w/out finder.

With the M7 in AUTO, pick an aperature, zone focus and all you have to do is look through the external finder and shoot.-Dick

[mabelsound]

You are making too much of a fuss for yourself. The 21 finders give you an accurate view of what you will get, not just the field of view, but the distortion and perspective. Finders are very natural in use, after 5 min you will wonder what you were worried about. I use finders on both 35 and 50 also.

I've been through this! I just don't like them. They take me out of the moment. I've used them with a 21, a 15, and a 28, and always end up going SLR after a roll. It's a small thing, but I really dig my SLR wides, and love a camera with clean lines and nothing jutting out.

Anyway, I've taken my stand: I have sold my 21 and am going only 28-90 for RF cameras. And I'm officially in the market for an M7, presumably a .72 now. Huzzah!!

[sojournerphoto]

I'm considering going the other way and selling my R4m and just using the Zeiss vf with my Ikon for my 25. The R4m is great, but the Biogon intrudes into the field of view a bit more than I like and I just like shooting with the Ikon immensely.

Mike

[nikonhswebmaster]

You will miss that 21! I have been using finders forever, they are great for some of us. SLR wides are just not the same.

LX-3 with 24 finder, EP-1 with 35 [34] finder, Nikon M with 21 CV and finder: