View Full Version : How to know the age of your Jupiter 8 (50mm f2)?
Hello, I wish to know how to determine the age and the version of your Jupiter 8.
The first two digits of the serial number are the year of manufacture. While the Jupiter-8 did change over time, I'm not aware of specific versions. Earlier versions are silver; late versions are black, and the entire lens rotates when you focus them.
xayraa33
07-31-2009, 18:33
you can go by the first two digits rule, although I have two J-8s that don't follow that rule, but most do.
you can go by the first two digits rule, although I have two J-8s that don't follow that rule, but most do.
That is interesting. Where were they made, and when? Just curious.
The older lenses follow the first two digit rule but newer lenses do not follow this rule. My oldest is a 1955 J-8 and a 1959 J-3.
There are a few variations as Bill mentioned. The earlier versions don't have the rotating front element and (some?) do have a focus tab. Not sure about the optics but I think that remained the same for all versions?
I have noted differences in the color of the coatings; pale purple-ish or pale orange or straw colors. Not certain if that relates to manufacture date or, perhaps, which plant they were made in?
I've not owned one but the later black bodied lenses also have the markings painted or silk screened on rather than engraved.
Rob
PS: if you can find a copy of Jean Loupe Princelle's book, he has lots of mostly good info about lots of FSU cameras and lenses.
The older lenses follow the first two digit rule but newer lenses do not follow this rule. My oldest is a 1955 J-8 and a 1959 F-3.
Raid,
Are you certain? I have a black J-8 and a J-8-1 that appear to follow the rule. They're both LTM versions from KMZ.
xayraa33
07-31-2009, 18:48
That is interesting. Where were they made, and when? Just curious.
one is a late 70s black one with the green and white numbering and the other is a mid 60s silver tabless one with the rotating front element.
I am guessing at the era by the camera bodies serial numbers they came on.
Raid,
Are you certain? I have a black J-8 and a J-8-1 that appear to follow the rule. They're both LTM versions from KMZ.
I have a black LTM Jupiter-8 by KMZ with serial number 0249104. The aperture ring turns without any clicks. It saysa on it "Made in USSR".
My LMT Jupiter-8 has a serial number 02.... too. It's black with al the letters in white and red. I think this rule is not for all the Jupiters-8.
Somebody knows the construction material of the outside of these lenses?, Is it aluminium?
Disaster_Area
07-31-2009, 20:07
yup... aluminum. The biggest problem with dating a lot of the FSU lenses is that they've often been frankenstiened out of 2 or more lenses of different manufacturing dates... so even if you can date your lens by serial number, that may only tell you the date of the piece of aluminum the number is engraved on :)
David Hughes
08-01-2009, 05:16
Somewhere at the back of my mind a message came up that the 2 digits prefix for the year started in 1959 but I can't be sure.
Regards, David
I have a black LTM Jupiter-8 by KMZ with serial number 0249104. The aperture ring turns without any clicks. It saysa on it "Made in USSR".
Wow. It's hard to argue with a 02. :) That definitely upsets what I thought was one of the few certainties in FSU collecting. AFAIK, the Jupiter-8 never came with clicks. I think only the Kiev-mount Jupiter-8M and Industar-61 had click stops.
Somewhere at the back of my mind a message came up that the 2 digits prefix for the year started in 1959 but I can't be sure.
Regards, David
David,
Older FSU lenses followed the numering system by which the first two digits were the production year.It is only with newer made FSU lenses where it is unclear which year a lens was made.
According to Princelle, LTM Jupiter-8 production at KMZ can be dated/classified as follows:
1950 - 1962: chromed aluminum with focusing tab. Exact copy of the Zeiss rigid Sonnar.
1962 - 1965: satin chromed aluminum barrel. No focusing tab. 52mm focal length
1965 - 1970: chromed aluminum. Front of the lens rotates while focusing.
1970 - 1992: black anodized finish. Front of the lens rotates while focusing.
1990's: production switches to the Jupiter-8-1.
xayraa33
08-01-2009, 07:35
this one was on a 1965 Zorki 4
http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu228/kennyard/IMG_1291.jpg
Perhaps the lenses with numbers that don't match their manufacturing date were sold as replacement lenses? The black anodised J-8 on my Zorki-4K has a number starting with 77 and so does the camera body.
eli griggs
08-01-2009, 08:01
Can we get a sticky thread posed titled something like "FSU production dates" so we can put useful info like this in one spot?
According to Princelle, LTM Jupiter-8 production at KMZ can be dated/classified as follows:
1950 - 1962: chromed aluminum with focusing tab. Exact copy of the Zeiss rigid Sonnar.
1962 - 1965: satin chromed aluminum barrel. No focusing tab. 52mm focal length
1965 - 1970: chromed aluminum. Front of the lens rotates while focusing.
1970 - 1992: black anodized finish. Front of the lens rotates while focusing.
1990's: production switches to the Jupiter-8-1.
This is very useful information, Bill.
What about the Jupiter-8M?
What does the "M" stand for?
This is very useful information, Bill.
What about the Jupiter-8M?
What does the "M" stand for?
Raid,
I wish I knew, but I haven't got a clue. According to Princelle, the Jupiter-8 was made in Kiev-mount by KMZ from 1950 to 1955, when production switched to the Kiev Arsenal. The Jupiter-8M was introduced in 1957 with a recalculated, 6-element formula and click-stops. I have a '56 Kiev IIa with a '57 Arsenal-built Jupiter-8 -- assuming the 2-digit rule holds true.
Raid,
I wish I knew, but I haven't got a clue. According to Princelle, the Jupiter-8 was made in Kiev-mount by KMZ from 1950 to 1955, when production switched to the Kiev Arsenal. The Jupiter-8M was introduced in 1957 with a recalculated, 6-element formula and click-stops. I have a '56 Kiev IIa with a '57 Arsenal-built Jupiter-8 -- assuming the 2-digit rule holds true.
So my black J-8M was made by Arsenal after all.
What was the number of elements in the original J-8 then?
Thanks for the info, Bill.
Your 56 numbered lens was made in 1956.
So my black J-8M was made by Arsenal after all.
What was the number of elements in the original J-8 then?
Thanks for the info, Bill.
Your 56 numbered lens was made in 1956.
Raid,
I can't find any reference to the 8M ever being made by anyone other than Arsenal. Does yours have the onion-shaped Arsenal mark?
As far as I know, the original J-8 also had six elements. Princelle doesn't go into any detail about how the 8M formula was changed.
julio1fer
08-02-2009, 10:48
As far as I know, the original J-8 also had six elements. Princelle doesn't go into any detail about how the 8M formula was changed.
Design of Jupiter 8M, from a Russian 1970 lens catalog posted here some time ago:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/julio1fer/j-8m.jpg
If I understand correctly the manual, it says that this lens was made for cameras of Kiev type.
julio1fer
08-02-2009, 10:58
Design of Jupiter-8 from same source:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/julio1fer/J-8.jpg
The manual says this lens is for cameras FED, Mir, Zorki, Leningrad, Drug.
The designs of J-8 and J-8M are very similar but not identical. Maybe some technical person could comment on the differences?
Thanks, Julio!
The last two rear elements in the J-8 M are symmetric and they are asymmetric in the J-8. The coverages differ slightly. Else, I need someone who understands optics to fillus in.
ethics_gradient
08-02-2009, 11:38
Question: where can I pick up a cheap front cap for the J8? I've got one rear LTM cap between that and my J-9 which is fine for now, but I'd like something to keep the front element from getting potentially scratched.
Question: where can I pick up a cheap front cap for the J8? I've got one rear LTM cap between that and my J-9 which is fine for now, but I'd like something to keep the front element from getting potentially scratched.
Place a lens hood on the J-8 until you get a cheap front cover.
Question: where can I pick up a cheap front cap for the J8? I've got one rear LTM cap between that and my J-9 which is fine for now, but I'd like something to keep the front element from getting potentially scratched.
Any cap that clips into 40.5mm filter threads will do the trick. Front and rear caps for these lenses are available from fedka.com.
http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/J8%20lens%20cap.html
DanOnRoute66
08-02-2009, 19:19
Any cap that clips into 40.5mm filter threads will do the trick. Front and rear caps for these lenses are available from fedka.com.
Yes, Fedka also offers lens hood-cap combos, where the "pinch"-style lens cap fits inside the lens hood. I have a couple of those and the caps fit really well and the hoods are nicely vented. I have both "slanted" and "straight" hoods and have come to prefer the latter.
relistan
08-02-2009, 20:14
I don't have any really useful information to contribute, but since we're making guesses here: I would guess that the serial numbers that don't seem to match up with the year of manufacture are from a different plant. Did KMZ operate more than one plant at some point? I realize they all have the KMZ logo so I don't think it was a different manufacturer. But the font and styling on the letters don't seem quite right either.
Cheers,
Karl
Karl,
I also would make such a guess. It sounds very reasonable.
I don't have any really useful information to contribute, but since we're making guesses here: I would guess that the serial numbers that don't seem to match up with the year of manufacture are from a different plant. Did KMZ operate more than one plant at some point? I realize they all have the KMZ logo so I don't think it was a different manufacturer. But the font and styling on the letters don't seem quite right either.
Cheers,
Karl
As far as I know, mostly from reading Princelle, there was/is only one KMZ facility. I'll reread the KMZ chapter when I get home, just to refresh my memory. ZOMZ could probably be considered a satellite plant, but they never made the Jupiter-8 and their work is clearly marked.
relistan
08-03-2009, 09:43
As far as I know, mostly from reading Princelle, there was/is only one KMZ facility. I'll reread the KMZ chapter when I get home, just to refresh my memory. ZOMZ could probably be considered a satellite plant, but they never made the Jupiter-8 and their work is clearly marked.
I think Alfred's Camera page (here: http://cameras.alfredklomp.com/kmzintro/) has some information that seems pertinent here:
In Septem*ber 1976, KMZ was re*named to PO KMZ, PO stand*ing for "Proizvod*stven*noe Obyedi*ne*nie", a Pro*duc*tion or In*dus*tri*al Union. A PO en*gulfed more than one fac*to*ry: it was the name for an en*tire line of fac*to*ries and sup*pli*ers. That's why plants as Vilieka, Ros*tov and Val*dai are known as "KMZ's sis*ter fac*to*ries" and not as sep*a*rate plants: they were cogs in the PO KMZ ma*chin*ery. In 1979, the gov*ern*ment re*named KMZ "PO KMZ imeni S. A. Zvere*va", the PO KMZ in the name of S. A. Zverev.
So there was more than one plant. I really think the difference in numbering is that some came from another assembly line. Maybe you'll see more about it in Princelle's book, I don't have a copy.
The Wikipedia article on KMZ (here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasnogorskiy_Zavod) mentions that Zenit production was outsourced to other plants to keep up with demand, as well. Jupiter lenses for Zorki may have had the same.
Cheers,
Karl
Speaking about "M" in J-8M ... i believe that could mean "модернизация" (modernisation). It is standard meaning of "M" in russian gear ... for example renewed Kalashnikov AK-47 had a name AKM and so on ... :)
David Hughes
08-05-2009, 09:55
I said a while ago "Somewhere at the back of my mind a message came up that the 2 digits prefix for the year started in 1959 but I can't be sure" and so thought I'd better come back and say that I traced it back to http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?-1620130885 and - if you scroll down to Type C3 you'll find something the effect that the Fed 2 numbers started 9 in 1959 and then 0 in 1960 etc.
Thought I'd mention it as I hate loose ends.
Can anyone expand on this?
Regards, David
I said a while ago "Somewhere at the back of my mind a message came up that the 2 digits prefix for the year started in 1959 but I can't be sure" and so thought I'd better come back and say that I traced it back to http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?-1620130885 and - if you scroll down to Type C3 you'll find something the effect that the Fed 2 numbers started 9 in 1959 and then 0 in 1960 etc.
Thought I'd mention it as I hate loose ends.
Can anyone expand on this?
Regards, David
Hi David,
There exist lenses from 1955 and 1956 .. etc. that started with numbers 55xxxx and 56xxxx, so maybe some lens brands started after 1959 but not all FSU lenses did.
I said a while ago "Somewhere at the back of my mind a message came up that the 2 digits prefix for the year started in 1959 but I can't be sure" and so thought I'd better come back and say that I traced it back to http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?-1620130885 and - if you scroll down to Type C3 you'll find something the effect that the Fed 2 numbers started 9 in 1959 and then 0 in 1960 etc.
Thought I'd mention it as I hate loose ends.
Can anyone expand on this?
Regards, David
Fed definitely followed their own system for serial numbers. As far as I know, they never adhered to the 2-digit rule. They also tended to reset serial numbers between major models ... so it's not at all uncommon to see a Fed-2 with a lower serial than a Fed-1, for example.
David Hughes
08-06-2009, 06:11
Raid, Bill,
Thanks and I'll add to it that the wicked dealers just love to mix and match the bodies and lenses. Even cameras I have with the original lens baffle me at times.
Regards, David
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