Lightmeter recommendation and can I use it this way?

[ymc226]

Just started using a RF along with a Pentax digital spotmeter but find that I do miss opportunities quite often.

Presently, I spotmeter a patch of my subjects skin and overexpose 1 stop to put the skin in Zone 6.

If I am in the same ambient light as my subject, can I just take a reading near me without walking over to the subject and overexpose 1 stop to get about the same result?

If so, can anyone recommend a small and sturdy easy to use incidence meter that is available new or used?

[Keith]

I used to find that provided I was in the same ambient light as my subject a reflective reading with my VCII off the back of my hand was nearly perfect. Since getting my L308-S Sekonic which reads ambient I've done a comparison and the back of the hand method was less than a third of a stop different.

[Morry Katz]

Find a new or used Sekonic 398 incident meter. No battery required. On the street, take a reading in the shade and a reading in the sun and use those. No need to meter every shot. Spot meters are not meant for street work - too slow. Meter less, shoot more.
Morry Katz, Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada

[Steve Karr]

Wow Morry ... I've been shooting for 20+ years & I never thought of that. For God sake, so easy.

[payasam]

Why do you "miss opportunities quite often"? Spot meter too slow? If you go by the "zone system", I'd say you need a spot meter.

You can do what Keith does, in effect turning a reflected light meter into an incident light meter. Remember, though, that while skin colour differs widely, the reflectivity of the human palm is pretty much the same across races. When I had SLRs with TTL meters I used to meter my palm and add one stop. Now I use film only in an M2 and use an incident light meter whenever possible (it's a slow working one so I shan't recommend it).

[dfoo]

I incident meter the sun & the shade, and go from there when I shoot. How can you shoot zone with 35mm film?

[bmattock]

Lots of stuff going on here.

* Yes, you can do zone system with 35mm film. You can do it with anything.
* If you're doing zone system, speed is not your friend.
* Zone system and street shooting probably don't match.
* Metering your own hand is great if you're in the same light as the subject. If you're not, it isn't.
* If you're metering for skin tone, not everyone has the same skin tone. We're not all the same color, you know?

Suggestion - use a spotmeter for Zone system, but not for street photography. For that, use an incident meter or reflected light meter. Also consider making use of prefocus.

[dfoo]

I think it would be difficult to do pure zone with a 36 exposure roll of 35mm film...

[ymc226]

I don't do pure zone with the photo but using the Digital Spotmeter and Lambrecht's Zone Dial index to place the skin tones usually in Zone 6. There is not time to check for placement of other tones given the nature of what I shoot (candid shots of my family)

I want to get a small incident meter and just meter in the shade and in the open as Morry suggested but the dimensions on the Sekonic 398 look as big as my present meter. I was hoping for something smaller.

For those that have used the Sekonic L-208, has it been accurate enough and there were questions about the durability and battery contacts from long ago reviews. Have these been addressed?

Also regarding the Gossen Digisix, battery life was an issue. Is this also a popular small meter? Are there others?

[JoeV]

I remember the documentary "War Photographer", wherein James Nachtwey uses a handheld meter with his high-end Canon film and digital SLRs. He uses something that looks like a Sekonic incident meter; while facing the scene he holds it up in his right hand so the meter is capturing light from the same angle as the camera, over his right shoulder, then sets his camera accordingly. And he doesn't appear to meter every scene, only when the light changes. That's a great film to watch, just to learn these little tips.

Off-topic, but every time I see Christianne Amanpour on CNN, I'm reminded of having seen her in this same documentary, in the part where they've uncovered rotting corpses of war victims in the Balkans, chain-smoking cigarettes like a fiend; I would, too, if I've seen what she's seen. I wonder if that's how she maintains the resonant timbre of her reporter's voice?

~Joe

[bmattock]

I don't do pure zone with the photo but using the Digital Spotmeter and Lambrecht's Zone Dial index to place the skin tones usually in Zone 6. There is not time to check for placement of other tones given the nature of what I shoot (candid shots of my family)

I want to get a small incident meter and just meter in the shade and in the open as Morry suggested but the dimensions on the Sekonic 398 look as big as my present meter. I was hoping for something smaller.

For those that have used the Sekonic L-208, has it been accurate enough and there were questions about the durability and battery contacts from long ago reviews. Have these been addressed?

Also regarding the Gossen Digisix, battery life was an issue. Is this also a popular small meter? Are there others?

You worry and obsess too much. Get a meter and live with it. They all work great.

[FPjohn]

The DigiSix/DigiFlash is a good choice for the small incident or reflected light meter. IMHO of course.

yours
FPJ

[redroses]

this is an interesting discussion.. thank you for sharing:angel:
simulation credit immobilier (http://simulationcredit1.com)

[vbarniev]

I have used a Lunasix 3 for many years without problems.

[Roger Hicks]

Lots of stuff going on here.

* Yes, you can do zone system with 35mm film. You can do it with anything.
* If you're doing zone system, speed is not your friend.
* Zone system and street shooting probably don't match.
* Metering your own hand is great if you're in the same light as the subject. If you're not, it isn't.
* If you're metering for skin tone, not everyone has the same skin tone. We're not all the same color, you know?

Suggestion - use a spotmeter for Zone system, but not for street photography. For that, use an incident meter or reflected light meter. Also consider making use of prefocus.

Dear Bill,

(Referring to highlighted portion): Yes, but only if you adjust development for the whole roll to match -- which (I suggest) is unlikely. What you need is a development regime which ensures that most negs print on grades 2 or 3.

Otherwise, we are in complete agreement.

Cheers,

R.

[relistan]

Personally I just carry an old GE PR-1 selenium meter that works great. It's small enough, and the table of exposures on it is very handy. I'm no expert, but even when I don't carry a meter I rarely mis-guess so badly that I lose a great shot. Sometimes it's not absolutely perfect exposure, but it's good enough to not matter. Particularly for things like candid shots of your family I think you ought to just skip the meter completely.

Cheers,
Karl

[matt_s]

Thanks for the discussion, I learn new things every day on this site. Now I have to look into the zone system to see what I have been missing all this time.

I recently got back into film photography and was carrying a sekonic 328 around with me everywhere, metering everything- too big and too slow. I picked up a second hand Sekonic L-208 recently and love it. It fits in a shirt pocket and meters reflected or ambiant light, is quick to use and read. Now I meter two to three times per roll and hope for the best, as I am slowly getting better at figuring out what adjustments to make on the fly.

Good luck and thanks for starting this thread.

Matt

[Roger Hicks]

Thanks for the discussion, I learn new things every day on this site. Now I have to look into the zone system to see what I have been missing all this time. . . . Good luck and thanks for starting this thread.

Matt

Dear Matt,

The Zone System appeals to some more than others. You might (or might not) find the following piece on the Zone System interesting:

http://www.rogerandfrances.com/photoschool/ps%20zone.html

Cheers,

Roger

[ChrisN]

Just started using a RF along with a Pentax digital spotmeter but find that I do miss opportunities quite often.

Presently, I spotmeter a patch of my subjects skin and overexpose 1 stop to put the skin in Zone 6.

If I am in the same ambient light as my subject, can I just take a reading near me without walking over to the subject and overexpose 1 stop to get about the same result?

If so, can anyone recommend a small and sturdy easy to use incidence meter that is available new or used?

Your metering approach here is entirely consistent with page 9 of the manual for the Weston V meter, which recommends taking the reading up close to the face of the subject person, then opening up one stop (or aligning the meter index number with the "C" mark) to double the exposure. There's nothing wrong with your technique excepting it is slow, as you have noted.

It's a shame that some have pooh-poohed the use of a spot meter and zone terminology. Of course it depends on what you've metered - with a spot meter you can be pretty selective about that, and with an aid like the Lambrecht scale on the Pentax digital spot meter you can determine an exposure that will place (for example) those shadows beside the boulder in Zone 3 - "The darkest tone with texture and detail" to borrow Roger's phrase. You don't have to use a full-blown zone system to get benefit from understanding the principle of placing tones - it is much the same in effect as taking an incident reading (or an averaged reflected reading) and using your judgement to compensate for backlighting or an overall bright scene. The spot metering technique is simply more precise and deliberate. And while varying the development time of individual negatives (possible with sheet film but not roll film) will allow you best control of highlights while achieving good shadow detail, you don't need to go to this extreme to get benefit from understanding the use of a spot meter.

But yes, probably too slow for most in street photography (although I do recall Raid uses one, or did). I like the Sekonic L308 for incident and averaged reflected readings - it slips easily into a pocket and uses a AA battery. I like the fact it is not so small I am likely to drop it.

[hoppinghippos]

Hi apologies if this is a stupid question, but I noticed that my SLR, my Bessa and my lightmeter gives different readings, eg if I meter an empty white wall with all three. Is this meant to be or its a calibration problem?

[Sparrow]

Hi apologies if this is a stupid question, but I noticed that my SLR, my Bessa and my lightmeter gives different readings, eg if I meter an empty white wall with all three. Is this meant to be or its a calibration problem?

Spot and incident meters are usually set to give 18% grey for the indicated LV. However reflective and TTL meters tend to be set to what the manufacturer thinks is a normally lit scene, so they seldom agree.

[Sparrow]

Find a new or used Sekonic 398 incident meter. No battery required. On the street, take a reading in the shade and a reading in the sun and use those. No need to meter every shot. Spot meters are not meant for street work - too slow. Meter less, shoot more.
Morry Katz, Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada

What he said, and if you label the meter at sunny/f16 just press the button and count how many stops it is to the “correct” exposure

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/3376580392_f905271cd3.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/3376580392_f905271cd3.jpg)

[Roger Hicks]

The original Kodak research indicated an average reflectance of 12-14%, and an average subject brightness range (IIRC) of 128:1 -- for outdoor subjects near Rochester, N.Y. Needless to say, there are wide variations even in averages: go to Greece, for example. In general, brightness ranges decline as you go north and increase as you go south.

The 18% grey card is a Munsell mid-tone, i.e. if you show someone a series of grey cards of different densities, they will choose 18% as a mid-tone. Originally the 18% had nothing whatsoever to do with exposure determination; Kodak recommended taking a reading off a Kodak-yellow paper packet (honestly!).

Even a poor exposure meter often represented an enormous improvement over many people's ability to estimate exposure. As Bill says, they all work pretty well, not least because there is quite a lot of latitude in exposure, especially with neg/pos, and there is no such thing as an objectively correct exposure. There is however such a thing as a perfect exposure, which is the one you want.

Spot meters -- used properly, to read shadows, not mid-tones -- were another big jump again. The first successful spot meter, the SEI, didn't even have a mid-tone index, because no film speed system is keyed to a mid-tone: negatives are keyed to shadows, and slides (and digital) to highlights.

Another name for the incident light system is the 'artificial highlight' system, which gives the game away. An incident reading has nothing to do with an 18% grey, EDIT: except insofar as an 18% grey is related to a bright diffuse highlight (typically 90% reflectance, i.e. 5x that of an 18% grey card): it will merely ensure that the highlights aren't blown.

Broad-area reflected light meters are based on the 12-14% assumption, but multi-sector meters may weight the exposure in one direction or another according to the different readings of the different sectors.

There's more about this on the site. Start with http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps%20expo%20neg.html and go on from there.

Cheers,

R.

[Sparrow]

Any one who has common sense will remember that the bewilderments of the eyes are of two kinds, and arise from two causes, either from coming out of the light or from going into the light, which is true of the mind's eye, quite as much as of the bodily eye; and he who remembers this when he sees any one whose vision is perplexed and weak, will not be too ready to laugh; he will first ask whether that soul of man has come out of the brighter light, and is unable to see because unaccustomed to the dark, or having turned from darkness to the day is dazzled by excess of light.

Plato

[Mcary]

Also regarding the Gossen Digisix, battery life was an issue. Is this also a popular small meter? Are there others?

I use the Digiflash version and the battery seems fair. If you're worried about the battery going dead, just buy 3 or 4 at a time and stick one in your wallet and a couple in your bag. That way you'll havea spare even if you decide to leave your bag at home.

[Al Kaplan]

I have two Weston Master V meters calibrated by Quality Light Metric to match one another. I use them mostly for incident light. The meter in my Bessa is pretty close, reading the palm of my hand.

http://thepriceofsilver.blogspot.com

[ZeissFan]

Don't overthink exposure.

If you tried to account for variances in shutter speed (marked speed vs. actual speed) and small variances in the aperture, you would never take a photo, because you would spend most of your time doing calculations.

Just be as accurate as you can be. Plus, it's b/w film -- not digital. You actually have some room for error.

[Al Kaplan]

Zeiss fan is right. I've read that the allowable margin for shutter speed error is about 20% at speeds below 1/500 and 30% at at 1/500 and above, and that error can be in either direction. F/stops are just calculated on focal length and diameter of the diaphragm. They don't take into account the actual transmission through the glass.