Online Electronics Stores Caught in Consumer Fraud [Archive]

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kshapero

06-26-2009, 00:42

ruben

06-26-2009, 00:49

What was the fraud about ?

JRG

06-26-2009, 00:57

"What was the fraud about ?"

Here you go:

http://www.r8ny.com/node/143400

btgc

06-26-2009, 01:19

I've heard about buyers, choosing to buy gear at low much lower price than on average, and discovering after delivery they are asked to buy essential components like charger or connecting cables for inflated prices.

There's saying - nothing is for free, except cheese in mouse trap. I really don't think it's wise to buy from unknown or susceptible e-shops. It's like with motorcycles - first buy protective wear and for rest choose vehicle. Safety is the word.

Al Patterson

06-26-2009, 01:57

This has been going on for years. Frankly, I'm suprised anybody would be stupid enough to fall for this garbage.

As for government shutting them down, even these guys deserve a chance to change their ways. If they don't modify their behaviour, put them in the cell next to Bernie Madoff next time they get caught.

Tuolumne

06-26-2009, 02:00

It has never ceased to amaze me how gullible people are. Why wouldn't you just buy from a well-known store instead of trying to save a few bucks here and there? When you talk to these places on the phone you can tell they are not honest dealers.

/T

kshapero

06-26-2009, 02:06

My recommended storefronts (in no particular order):
PopFlash
CameraQuest
PhotoVillage
BH Photo
Adorama
KEH
RFF Classifieds
Amazon

Pablito

06-26-2009, 02:15

As for government shutting them down, even these guys deserve a chance to change their ways.

WHY? They have been ripping off people forever. How many chances are they supposed to get?

I get naive students all the time asking why they should buy from B&H if they can get it for $500 less, or whatever, at "Best Price Camera". Folks are gullible and if it's on the internet it MUST be legit! ha ha.

btgc

06-26-2009, 02:36

hmmmm....probably today many want to reach "one model farther" than they actually should, so this kind of stores looks like a good deal?

I don't exactly know how it were in days of film gear - if one could not leap for top brands, they got topmodel from second or third tier manufacturers or tried for cheapest model, though from first tier manufacturers?

I know many passed Samsung dslr (even it were same as Pentax) to go for Canon or Nikon and then seeking this kind of shops to get same package as money would buy if choosing Samsung or Pentax. Probably body + IS lens anyway were more expensive than body with IS + lens. Go figure....

NickTrop

06-26-2009, 03:18

Good. Shut them down. This stuff has been going on forever. Must be profitable. Sure, people shouldn't be so stupid, but they are - obvs. Doesn't justify what these rip-off artists do. Sometimes, the deals aren't "that" great - 10-20% below the lowest on-line price. If my mom (God rest her soul) new to the Internet, not knowing where to buy, not knowing much about cameras... she "might" bite to save a few bucks. That's who these b-stards prey on I bet... and cash-strapped people just trying to save a buck.

bmattock

06-26-2009, 03:27

www.resellerratings.com

Use it or be an idiot. Those who read the complaints on the worst dealers and choose to try to buy anyway are stupid and asking to have their money taken away.

Oscar Levant

06-26-2009, 04:11

They've been conducting business this way since at least the late 1940's through magazine ads in publications like Modern Photograpy, then they switched to the web in the late 1990's.

They've been shut down dozens of times by dozens of "Andrew Cuomos", and then immediately reopened.

Basically, if you're stupid, you might get snared, if you're not stupid, you would instantly realize what was going on and would never be taken.

Unfortunately, there is an endless supply of the stupid.

lorriman

06-26-2009, 05:15

WHY? They have been ripping off people forever. How many chances are they supposed to get?

I reckon fools and their money should be separated. Makes for a much better world.

The alternative is mountains of legislation befouling our lives with red-tape further protecting us from discovering the real meaning of trust and protection and making life ever more dangerous and arbitrary.

kshapero

06-26-2009, 05:40

I remember a guy in Virginia in the 80's who sold "snake oil" mail order. He would tell his wholesalers he was having a super sale and increase his credit line by double. Then he would sale off everything at a super discount, then give himself a big bonus equal to the amount he owed the wholesaler. Then his company (not him personally) would declare bankruptcy. Six months later he would start another mail order company and do it again and again and again. he would brag to me how it was all legal. BTW this was NOT a friend of mine. just someone I knew about. Sick, eh?

Beemermark

06-26-2009, 06:43

Here we go again:
"As part of the deal, five of the companies — Best Price Camera, Foto Connection, 1 Way Photo, 86th Street Photo and Broadway Photo — have agreed to change their business practices and accept continual monitoring. Two other companies, Camera Wiz and Sonic Photo, will close."
What a joke, these companies have been targets of consumer fraud for at least 35 years. I don't know how many times they've "agreed" to change thier ways. I break up laughing when I read these statements. 86th St photo nailed me back in the early '70s and I learned my lesson then.

rover

06-26-2009, 07:36

I have made some edits to this thread.

Please discuss the business practices in question here.

Roger Hicks

06-26-2009, 07:38

I reckon fools and their money should be separated. Makes for a much better world.

The alternative is mountains of legislation befouling our lives with red-tape further protecting us from discovering the real meaning of trust and protection and making life ever more dangerous and arbitrary.

You mean you WANT people to be able to sell contaminated food, fake goods, etc.? And to strip out e.g. power supplies and then charge extra for them? Or to practise 'bait and switch' advertising, often lying in the process? That sounds a lot more 'dangerous and arbitrary' to me.

Often, we don't know until afterwards that we're dealing with crooks. But a pattern of crookedness, and following known crooked behaviour, is relatively easy to spot and to legislate against.

I don't know exactly what these companies have been doing, but bent NYC bait-and-switch dealers have been pulling dishonest tricks for at least 30 years to my personal knowledge.

Tashi delek,

R.

35mmdelux

06-26-2009, 13:19

Pre-1900's fraud was seen as a joke played on "dumb" buyer. This supposedly changed and fraud became a crime, supposedly.

-doomed-

06-26-2009, 14:52

P.T. Barnum said it best " There's a Sucker born every minute , and two to take em"

Ripoff artists will exist as long as there are idiots buy whatever they're selling , I'm not saying its right but that's how it will be until people wise up.

Al Patterson

06-26-2009, 15:16

My recommended storefronts (in no particular order):
PopFlash
CameraQuest
PhotoVillage
BH Photo
Adorama
KEH
RFF Classifieds
Amazon

That would be similar to mine. I'd add a few places like Samy's in CA and Calumet, but wouldn't suggest any deletions...

JohnTF

06-26-2009, 16:49

My personal favorite was the Solar Powered Clothed Dryer.

It came in a nice box, -- was a clothes line and some pins.

I had problems with these guys way back, but they were smart enough to just come in perhaps $50 cheaper, but wanted more money for parts of the camera they claimed were extra, e.g. a $100 case, or they were pure bait and switch, you ordered something, they shipped something else and charged more.

Actually, any fraud should be prosecuted. Hell with them.

Pull their ads.

Am guessing they will pop up under a new name though.

Regards, John

WDPictures

06-27-2009, 20:08

1948nikon

06-27-2009, 23:15

I wonder how much longer before they crack down on these guys?

JohnTF

06-29-2009, 01:54

I wonder how much longer before they crack down on these guys?

I think this is the origin of the cliche of nailing jello to a tree?

Krosya

06-29-2009, 02:24

Eric T

06-29-2009, 08:46

My rule of thumb on this is: a) if the seller demands to have your daytime phone number prior to placing your order; and b) if the prices are just too low to believe - then be suspicious.
There are plenty of very good vendors to use: CameraQuest, B&H, Adorama, PopFlash, Calumet, etc., as others have mentioned.
We just don't need those bottom feeders who call you and tell you that a battery in not included with the camera and it costs and extra $300. Or you have to buy the battery charger because it is not included. It is just highway robbery.
These bad dealers prey on those with little knowledge. It is very sad that people think they can have a sustainable business model by treating people this way.

George S.

06-29-2009, 09:20

I don't exactly know how it were in days of film gear - if one could not leap for top brands, they got topmodel from second or third tier manufacturers or tried for cheapest model, though from first tier manufacturers?

They did the same things in the film days. If a camera body came with a strap or batteries, or a case, these guys would remove them from the box and tell you things like - " You'll need a battery and that is $13 extra." And a UV filter was necessary for good image quality and that filter would be an additional $35...

If it was a body and lens combo, they'd substitute the F2 lens with a F3.5 version and charge you $100 or more to "upgrade to the better lens."

Or they'd say they just today sold out of the kit lens but they'll offer you a $200 value "better lens"[which it wasn't] anyway for another $100.

Oh, and the warranty would only be good if you sent the camera to Japan, so you'd have to buy the US warranty for another $50...

Tuolumne

06-29-2009, 09:24

Whats more amazing is that while it was pretty well known for years what these stores were doing, our dear and "respectable" photo magazines, like Pop Photo, American Photo, Shutterbug, etc kept advertising them and NEVER warned their readers about such things. Anything for a mighty dollar, huh? But than again, they get paid for ads, reviewers get paid for reviews, get free equipment, so why would any of them care about the consumer?

Everyone has their hand in your pocket. Everyone. It's your job to keep them out. My pocket book is now closed to all blandishments. I'm using what I've got. Nothing else comes in the door...well, there are these two new m4/3rds lenses I "need"...:bang::D

/T

JohnTF

06-30-2009, 02:47

No one wants to be cheated, either by paying way too much, or through fraud.

There are some places I suppose to cut corners, and some deals are deals, others are lessons, some more expensive than others. I have a few lessons lying about the house, probably needing to go in to the trash.

An experienced photo dealer of many years bought a "Nazi" Leica on ebay, and is now waiting for the next guy to buy it.

A well known local store is selling name items at competitive prices, but if you have a problem, they are no longer helping out with the manufacturer, so why buy locally from them? And, they are marking up accessories up to 10x, so they have become what some of the mail order places some times are. A friend bought a p&s from them, the battery died in a few months, and they wanted $50 to order a battery for a Casio, and made him feel like an idiot for asking that a battery last longer than a month or two. Sometimes they are very good.

Another store in Kent, 35 miles away, just asked him to send the battery and got the salesman to exchange it. Service, why you stick with some people and avoid others.

It may be a bit like Vegas, everyone knows, but they still go there. Hopefully we remember the sweet deals longer than the others.

I might post an ad here and give away a number of mistakes to someone who might fix them, but then I would have to admit how stupid I was to buy them in the first place. ;-)

Anyone got a self timer lever and a rewind knob for a black Nikkormat? Hard to see those missing/broken in bad pictures. ;-)

Regards, John

shayallen

07-01-2009, 00:10

I almost got caught by sonic! I had to go and get my bank card turned off for a few days!

Oscar Levant

07-03-2009, 00:15

The margins on new cameras are so cutthroat that most retailers couldn't survive if they didn't make a profit on the accessories.

If you go to Amazon, when you buy a camera, they "suggest" to you another battery, a case, a camera bag, extra memory cards, etc. That's where the markup is, and they need to maintain those sales to make a real profit, whereas when they sell the camera alone they may literally be making pennies or even selling as a loss leader.

Same thing on eBay where people see these silly "bundles" where they throw in garbage lens cleaning kits, tripods, filters, you name it, but the naive buyer thinks he is getting hundreds of dollars worth of "extras" for a low price when he buys a camera.

Except for my Nikon D700, I don't think I've bought a "new" camera in 35 years. I always buy used and wheel and deal.

* My D700 is now in Nikon warranty repair. First Nikon I ever needed fixed. It developed a spontaneous crack in the plastic body with NO abuse, and is wildly overexposing. But when it works it is the best digital camera I have ever owned.