View Full Version : Path to Democracy
I took these photographs some twenty plus years ago when South Korea was at the cross roads of moving from dictatorship to a democracy. The student lead movement resulted in free elections, freedom of press, and a democratically elected president. Today, South Korea is a fully democratic country.
I was compelled to post these image after watching what is unfolding in Iran right now. I hope the Iranians achieve their goal of gaining freedom and basic rights.
Here are the last of these series.
WOW! Looks like you were right in the middle of it.
zenlibra
06-20-2009, 13:57
Belle, those are some compelling shots.
35mmdelux
06-20-2009, 13:59
People get what they are willing to accept. Freedom comes at a price. At some point dictators get the message and leave town-- Samosa, Marcos, Ceauşescu -- but not until they have murdered everyone that challenged their authority.
Until there is democracy and the rule of law in fact, there will be a polarization of economic power resulting in a few rich groups and the others poor -- this is the model that most of the people of the world have been willing to accept.
Samosa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samosa
Luxlover
06-20-2009, 14:27
Great photos. You should have worked for a news service.
Speaking of Iran, do you really think those in power are going to give that up for the sake of the people. No way. They will get their bullies to murder people in the streets, gather up and imprison or kill all that disagree and act upon it.
Same old dictators, different names, that's all.
Luxlover
If you look in the second set of photos. The guys in white motorcycle helmets were ex-cons and thugs that the dictator brought in to do all the heavy beating and bashing. The riot police in green were just soldiers force to do their job.
In the case of Korea, the momentum was enormous, international pressure high, and the Olympics just around the corner. In addition, you had a highly educated and media savvy middle class who were the majority. The dictator eventually buckled and opened themselves up to free elections. The media also opened up. People were no longer buying into propaganda.
I do see some parallels, but what strikes me most about Iran is the sheer number of women fighting for their rights too.
I was too young to know then, but I really appreciate freedom and basic rights that I have, living here in America.
Interesting photos. Thanks for posting!
I follow the events in Iran closely. The Iranians, or Persians as I think they prefer to be refered to, is an ancient nation that can track their roots back several millenia. They are proud of their herritage and the younger generations are well educated and very much inerested in a modern and democratic islamic state. They will not be easily subdued. Let us hope this don't become a Burma revisited...
A relatively stable, well-functioning Iran would be of massive importance to the entire region and could very well help cool down things in several of the surrounding countries. This could save many lives and improve the lives of countless more. Basically I think it's in our common interest that the dissenters succeed, and ultimately overthrow a corrupt regime that uses religious fanaticism as means of personal gain.
/Mac
Good point M4cros.
I read a book by Benjamin Franklin: An American Life by Walter Isaacson a couple of months ago. I see why he emphasized separating state and religion.
Good point M4cros.
I read a book by Benjamin Franklin: An American Life by Walter Isaacson a couple of months ago. I see why he emphasized separating state and religion.
The biggest "aha" moment over the state vs religion-issue I've had, was a Jack London short story I read when I was a kid. I do not remember it's name but it's fundamental meaning still remains very vivid in my memory even if it must be 15 years at least since I read it. Two outsiders came to a eskimo or indian tribe. One became chief, other sjaman. Who do you think had the real power?
Now 'ol Jack wasn't really that much of a political writer, but that short story ought to be syllabus of any social or political science-related education. It handles this age-old religion vs state on a small scale, but it illustrates the effect religious power has, if it's excercised in a political way, very clearly.
That said, I do not think we can expect a more democratic Iran to sever the ties between religion and state. A secular Iran, in the same way that Turky is, seems unlikely. Yet maybe, with a strong leader, the state will have the upper hand, and not the religious leaders.
/Mac
tom.w.bn
06-21-2009, 01:05
Samosa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samosa
Probably http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasio_Somoza_Debayle
Samosa really tastes good.
Samosa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samosa
Wasn't it the Sandalistas who finished the Samosas?
ZeissFan
06-21-2009, 04:15
Under the Shah's Iran, the feared secret police helped to keep dissent under control. Today, under the theocracy, you have these roving armed militias, which in the past week or so are snatching people from their homes in the middle of the night, beating them senseless (or to death) and then dragging them away.
I heard last night that the government told the families that they could check on the status of their loved ones in a month.
How much has life changed?
Dictators don't change much, whether they wear a suit, uniform or a robe.
I do see some parallels, but what strikes me most about Iran is the sheer number of women fighting for their rights too.
I noticed this too. I thought it very important, but I can't say that I've seen anyone mention it other than you. I remember Persian friends talking about the Iran-Iraq War as a time of women, because so many young men were killed (Iran lost over 1 million people in that conflict in total casualties, roughly 3/4 of that number being men of fighting age.) The hard-liners in Iran are seen as responsible for that war, and perhaps the memory of that period of time lingers strongly among women who lost fathers and brothers. Add to that the (not inconsequential) issue of gender inequity and the economic hardships that inequity creates for women specifically, they may see most clearly both the failure and cost of this government's ongoing obsession with a foreign policy that is wrecking the economy.
I don't know, but I did think it was very interesting.
edit: Of course, the role of Faezeh Hashemi in the opposition protests, who is Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani's daughter (the former president noted and curiously/carefully complimented in Ayatollah Khamenei's speech the other day,) may also be a motivating influence for women.
... Now 'ol Jack wasn't really that much of a political writer ...
Actually Jack London was quite a political writer and, "gasp," a socialist one at that. He wrote a great anti-fascist screed called The Iron Heel.
Actually Jack London was quite a political writer and, "gasp," a socialist one at that. He wrote a great anti-fascist screed called The Iron Heel.
I don't call that politics, I call it "common sense" :p You are correct however, it's been many years since I went through his complete works, don't remember all of it. I appologize for my somewhat slappdash definition of him as a non-political writer.
/Mac
We should rightfully and righteously condemn dictatorships and oppression wherever they occur. But given the record (past and present) of the world's "democracies," we should always bring a measure of humility and self-reflection to our analyses and critiques.
ZeissFan
06-23-2009, 05:37
I'm thankful that I live in this true democracy in which change of power occurs peacefully although not without discord or anger. I'm glad that I don't live in a "democracy" in which the Supreme Leader announces the results of an election before polls have even closed.
Steve M.
06-23-2009, 06:20
Nice sentiment, but Iran is not South Korea. Due to extreme religious beliefs in the Middle East between the Israelis, Iranians, Palestinians etc that place has always been a disaster, w/ each faction claiming they have the direct path to some deity (a deity that apparently loves to see people killed left and right). Ironically it was one of the more progressive and moderate countries (but a dictatorship none the less) that the US illegally invaded for make believe reasons.
I hope the Iranians get things sorted out. At least President Obama is doing the smart thing by not getting involved and stating, rightly so, that the issue is an Iranian issue. We have caused those people enough grief from our constant meddling and support of the corrupt Shaw before the Revolution.
Amen to that. Change needs to happen from within. Most of us know what happened in Iran in the 50's. I'd like to think that we have learned from that mistake.
That's not to say that I would not welcome a less theocratic Government in Iran. Because that would make me the happiest person in the world.
I hope the Iranians get things sorted out. At least President Obama is doing the smart thing by not getting involved and stating, rightly so, that the issue is an Iranian issue. We have caused those people enough grief from our constant meddling and support of the corrupt Shaw before the Revolution.
The biggest danger to democracy is not power-hungry theocracies like in Iran but rather malevolent oligarchies masquerading as democracy. Pre-engineered elections, imbedded (i.e. "in-bed-with") state-controlled media, etc. It's the superficial impression of democracy without the power of the populace to effect actual change through real choice.
It's been interesting watching the situation unfold in Iran, how a theocracy used the superficial impression of faux-democracy in an attempt to satiate the masses' desire for choice and freedom. But with a faux-election the outcome was predetermined, hence no choice at all.
Lesson for us all. Manufactured democracy is no democracy. I'm not even sure if "pure" democracy is even possible, perhaps it's just a theoretical construct. But as long as oligarchs manuever to prevent the masses from honest, free elections, there can be no democracy. And that's not just in developing countries; I remember in the States back in the 2000 election there was some imbroglio.
~Joe
It took many many years for S. Korea to achieve democracy. And there were numerous demonstrations and riots spanning some 35 years where people were suppressed, imprisoned, executed, and/or killed by a ruthless dictator government. i.e. Gwangju Massacre. But in the end, the masses prevailed.
I would really like to see the people of Iran prevail. I genuinely feel like we're at the crossroad of history where we can start tearing down mistrust and start getting along. Hope that time is now.
jonmanjiro
06-23-2009, 07:25
One wonders what the Iran of today would be like if the Americans (and British) left the democratically elected secular government of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq in power, instead of staging the coup that brought the Shah to power in 1953.
But then again you cannot nationalise Iran's oil industry, which had been controlled exclusively by the British government-controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, the UK's largest single investment overseas, without some sort of backlash right?!
Considering their track record, I have a very hard time believing that the USA (and others) aren't "getting involved" this time round either, despite what President Obama says. I just hope, as the poster above said, that the Iranians get things sorted out themselves with minimal outside interference.
Nice sentiment, but Iran is not South Korea.
One might say, if only sarcastically, that even South Korea is not South Korea--at least in respect to the popular imagination of its freedoms and successes.
Kudos to the countries that have become "less worse" than they were a decade or a generation ago--and shine especially when compared to the most egregious nation-violators of human dignity and rights--North Korea, Iran, and so forth. But this may be setting the bar too low.
Part of the inspiration we take from Iranians on the streets should be to muster our own effort and courage to correct injustices at home.
We have much unfinished business to conduct and many necessary photos to take.
Note that this week is the 40th anniversary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
Oscar Levant
06-23-2009, 08:25
Hmmmm....those of us in the USA, what do we have here?
Here you are given a small space where you can feel free, just like a squirrel does in a wheel cage, feeling the wind blowing into its face, "freely" running forward, generating some miniscule power for the system, but the minute you step outside your squirrel wheel, you are either redirected right back or are crushed and discarded.
We used to be free.
I don't think we are the freest country any more. I really don't care who has most freedoms. Thats not the point.
It is just that we lost ours.
Just think back, think when you were young. How much of the freedoms you had then are totally gone today?
Think and compare going to the bank and making a large deposit. Did anybody question you where did you get your money? It was nobody's business.
It was your money, Your business alone.
Think about your freedom to travel. It is gone. You have to prove who you are, so the state will allow you to go someplace.
I did not willingly give those freedoms away. I did not say, "please, lock me up for my own safety", did I?
And it was not one party that took those freedoms away. Both of them did. Each one under a different excuses, from "its for the children", "its for your own protection" to "its for the environment", "its for the economy".
Nothing of the past freedoms is coming back.
The only question remains us "how fast and how tight are they going to tighten the screws under the present regime?"
These are very serious abrogations of your "freedom".
Most people today do not even realize how deeply they have you under their thumb. They control your movements and you no longer have ANY financial privacy. Every single thing you do is tracked, they want to know about every nickel you make. This is so far gone that any pretense of "freedom" is a bad joke. And most people do not realize that Obama recently announced the most intrusive global controls on personal finances of ANY government in history. He's hiring 8,000 IRS agents to spy on and prosecute US citizens all over the world.
A passport used to be a simple document asking foreign governments to have the courtesy to to help out American citizens if assistance was ever needed. Now it is a tool of total control and surveillance. We are all truly and well screwed.
We live in the biggest surveillance state in the world. Everything you do is documented, no matter what you do in the world Uncle Sam wants to subpoena the banks and get his cut, while he simply prints and steals as much as he wants as home.
Stalin would have had an orgasm.
In Iran, they get to chose which religious fanatic nut will rule over them. Big deal.
One wonders what the Iran of today would be like if the Americans (and British) left the democratically elected secular government of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq in power, instead of staging the coup that brought the Shah to power in 1953.
But then again you cannot nationalise Iran's oil industry, which had been controlled exclusively by the British government-controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, the UK's largest single investment overseas, without some sort of backlash right?!
Considering their track record, I have a very hard time believing that the USA (and others) aren't "getting involved" this time round either, despite what President Obama says. I just hope, as the poster above said, that the Iranians get things sorted out themselves with minimal outside interference.
And while we are reflecting on historic truth we may wish to consider that it was oil from the Persian basin that the British developed, that powered the navy, that prevented the dominance of two greater tyrannies in the 20th century.
If we’re just going for sweeping generalisations and cheap shots that is.
:rolleyes:
Not to doubt about you, but "financial privacy" is often sought after by mobsters&co....
Here is a lot of pompous talk of "freedom" and "democracy" from both Americans and Europeans here.
The difference between Iran v USA or Europe is far more marginal than what the press tells you. Both USA and Europe have had some scandalous elections lately. Like the latest direct election to the European Parliament, with less than 50% participation, not all ballots represented at every poll station and flagrant lack of election control - with the result that the European Parliament is now filled up with neo nazis.
I won't even mention "George Bush" or "Florida", of being considdered anti American.
The US antagonism towards Iran is just too obvious; they can't get their hands on Iranian oil. That will hardly be the case anyway, regardless of who wins the street battles of Tehran. So, Obama does the wise thing; he keeps shut.
Sober observers here in Europe, I am sure, in USA too, predicted that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would win, if not so obviously as with more than 60% of the votes. After all, he got wide support from the poor, the working class and the people in the Iranian contryside.
The reforms that could be expected from Mir-Hossein Mousavi would hardly include a stop in the neuclear program or that Halliburton will get any oil service contracts. Mir-Hossein Mousavi is supported by a urban middle class, the students and another fraction of religous freaks that de facto rules Iran. Like Wall Street rules USA, and so on.
I am not at all sure that this will end well for the Iranians regardless who will end up as victorers on top of a heap of corpses. Nor shall we talk so selfasured about our own democracies or freedoms. Here is room for a lot of improvement.
jonmanjiro
06-23-2009, 17:34
And while we are reflecting on historic truth we may wish to consider that it was oil from the Persian basin that the British developed, that powered the navy, that prevented the dominance of two greater tyrannies in the 20th century.
:rolleyes:
The oil powered British navy was a factor, but was not the factor.
The switch to oil neither sparked a naval revolution nor delayed Britain's naval decline. In part its historical significance may have been overshadowed by development of the dreadnought. It may also be that World War I gave little opportunity for innovation, and by World War II every navy had adopted oil, neutralizing gains.
The transition from coal to oil was symptomatic of the broader limitations of leadership of the navy by Fisher and Churchill: it was a significant innovation but not a strategy. It improved the warfighting capability of the Royal Navy but didn't change the way wars were fought. (http://www.epmag.com/archives/digitalOilField/5911.htm)
Things may have turned out differently if the British government-controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company actually came through on their contractual obligations with the Iranians, despite those obligations being very lopsided against the Iranians in the first place.
Al Patterson
06-23-2009, 18:21
I suggest you watch the video at the link to see how great the mullahs in Iran are...
http://mashable.com/2009/06/21/neda/
yeah, men of god. NOT!
jonmanjiro
06-23-2009, 18:45
I suggest you watch the video at the link to see how great the mullahs in Iran are...
http://mashable.com/2009/06/21/neda/
yeah, men of god. NOT!
Yes I've seen that video. Very sad indeed.
BillBingham2
06-23-2009, 18:49
........Considering their track record, I have a very hard time believing that the USA (and others) aren't "getting involved" this time round either, despite what President Obama says. I just hope, as the poster above said, that the Iranians get things sorted out themselves with minimal outside interference.
This points to one of our greatest strengths and potential weaknesses, the peaceful transition of power and the swings that come with. Combined with short memories I think we often shoot ourselves in the foot looking for the best hand dealt on the table. We seem to think if we teak this or poke that we can help something happen quicker. For some it's business interests, others it's more altruistic (democracy). I know we had help from several sources during our revolution (e.g. France) and in some cases slapped back at the hand that helped a few years later. I tend to think that they only way we were able to get our act together was because it took so long for folks from outside to come visit (sailing across an ocean takes a long time).
I'm keeping my fingers, toes and eyes crossed that the US will keep watching and let the magic of democracy play out. The sooner we get the world off oil the better we will all be.
B2 (;->
Al Patterson
06-23-2009, 19:12
Yes I've seen that video. Very sad indeed.
Yeah, I'm thinking it could be Iran's Kent State moment...
I do wish the Iranian citizens well, and want them to be able to plot their own destiny as a country. At this point I'm afraid they are having a Tienanmen (sp?) Square moment.
(Yeah, their government stinks, but whose doesn't?)
jonmanjiro
06-23-2009, 20:31
Yeah, I'm thinking it could be Iran's Kent State moment...
I do wish the Iranian citizens well, and want them to be able to plot their own destiny as a country. At this point I'm afraid they are having a Tienanmen (sp?) Square moment.
(Yeah, their government stinks, but whose doesn't?)
I think its inevitable that the pendulum will continue to swing towards a more moderate Iranian state, but I doubt we're seeing a "moment" as the western media would have you believe.
This article, Iranian Elections: The 'Stolen Elections' Hoax (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14018) by Prof. James Petras, does a good job explaining why.
Some excerpts:
“Change for the poor means food and jobs, not a relaxed dress code or mixed recreation... Politics in Iran is a lot more about class war than religion.”The Western media relied on its reporters covering the mass demonstrations of opposition supporters, ignoring and downplaying the huge turnout for Ahmadinejad.The only group, which consistently favored Mousavi, was the university students and graduates, business owners and the upper middle class. The ‘youth vote’, which the Western media praised as ‘pro-reformist’, was a clear minority of less than 30% but came from a highly privileged, vocal and largely English speaking group with a monopoly on the Western media. Their overwhelming presence in the Western news reports created what has been referred to as the ‘North Tehran Syndrome’, for the comfortable upper class enclave from which many of these students come. While they may be articulate, well dressed and fluent in English, they were soundly out-voted in the secrecy of the ballot box.The demography of voting reveals a real class polarization pitting high income, free market oriented, capitalist individualists against working class, low income, community based supporters of a ‘moral economy’ in which usury and profiteering are limited by religious precepts.
Some people fought here long time ago, in our home countries to gain rights and democracy. Today people who vote, are the same that spent 3 to 7 hours a day in front of their TV, the primary source of their "knowledge" and "culture". Is this not something frightening ? :D
The oil powered British navy was a factor, but was not the factor.
Things may have turned out differently if the British government-controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company actually came through on their contractual obligations with the Iranians, despite those obligations being very lopsided against the Iranians in the first place.
I didn’t claim it to be a factor; I said it powered the ships, which it did.
I’m not sure who you are quoting there but he’s talking twaddle, sorry.
I completely agree that the Brits lied and cheated to get the oil, you did fail to mention we also stole the geological surveys from Russia first, he had a bit of style that Cunningham chap, one doesn’t get the epitaph Perfidious Albion for nothing.
Do you suppose the Iranians would have preferred to be “bombed back to the stone-age” instead being cheated out of it?
Some people fought here long time ago, in our home countries to gain rights and democracy. Today people who vote, are the same that spent 3 to 7 hours a day in front of their TV, the primary source of their "knowledge" and "culture". Is this not something frightening ? :D
I find the thought that most of the “free world” has it’s opinions informed by News International truly terrifying
BillBingham2
06-24-2009, 03:06
.....back to the stone-age....
Iran has a deep history with complexities and scares much deeper than we over here in the US have and often understand. Much of the country is "back in the stone-age" still. Religon has always been a way for people to look for a better way, a way to bond with other people, an escape from a life that sucks. That's not all it brings, but many look to it for salvation when there is no other option.
Because of the lack of access to Iran (and other places) and the death of newpapers or any other reporting media that can actually send reporters in to do indepth stories we are stuck with what sells and fills the cable networks.
Having worked in the area that supports the third largest population of voters in the US I know that with paper ballots there is no way they could count that many so quickly as they said they did.
I think we are not getting the complete storie on either side of this.
B2 (;->
great shots! much better than those we see in papers these days.
and speaking of iran - it is more US propaganda than real problem. do you really think someone can steal that many voices to achieve such big victory? also about women rights in iran - in last decade 60 % of people with university diploma were women. you dont see that high percentage in "democratic" countries...
it really hurt me when i see how west propaganda affect this world...
Bill;
Persia was an old and sophisticated civilisation when Alexandra invaded in 500ish BC, modern Iraq is a early 20c British concept I believe, it has not been stone age for a long, long time
I think it’s important, as far as possible, to view these things dispassionately and without national prejudices, and I’ve concluded the choice that faces the common Iraqis is between bad and worse government, they will have no individual freedom either way.
I suggest you watch the video at the link to see how great the mullahs in Iran are...
http://mashable.com/2009/06/21/neda/
yeah, men of god. NOT!
Al,
What would happen if a general strike broke out somewhere in USA with riots and all. Would the police shoot...?
BillBingham2
06-24-2009, 05:36
.....it has not been stone age for a long, long time......
Just as an FYI, I think there are parts of the USA that are still back in the stone age.
I happen to live in what I like to call OZ North (North Shore Chicago Illinois area) but have driven through places in the US with such poverty that I can only feel sad. On the same road I see folks at the opposite end of the scale (better off than I am).
B2
BillBingham2
06-24-2009, 05:37
Al,
What would happen if a general strike broke out somewhere in USA with riots and all. Would the police shoot...?
Not even in Chicago, but then we have a open and free press that is hungry for pictures of abuse and lots of cellphone cameras in most big cities.
B2 (;->
Just as an FYI, I think there are parts of the USA that are still back in the stone age.
I happen to live in what I like to call OZ North (North Shore Chicago Illinois area) but have driven through places in the US with such poverty that I can only feel sad. On the same road I see folks at the opposite end of the scale (better off than I am).
B2
one doesn't have to travel that far south of the Borg-Warner building to see deprivation, and the national guard has been on Chicago's streets in my lifetime I seem to recall, I have customers all down the east-coast so I too have a little knowledge of the US
I'm really not trying to prove anything here just pointing out things look different from elsewhere in the world, a poor rural Iraqi may well conclude that I'm-a-dinner-jad, sp, and an atom bomb could be the way to go, if one compares the way things have gone in N Korea as opposed to Iran that is, maybe I empathise too easily
Wasn't it the Sandalistas who finished the Samosas?
Yeah, they finshed off those Nasty Samosas....
Oscar Levant
06-24-2009, 07:06
I didn't even know sandals could eat samosas. Probably they taste best with mango chutney.
Al Patterson
06-24-2009, 10:52
Al,
What would happen if a general strike broke out somewhere in USA with riots and all. Would the police shoot...?
Well, from time to time police have been taped beating citizens during amn altercation in the USA. And many of those are in jail or no longer members of the police force. (As it should be).
Although a former attorney general seemed to like to kill right wingers and religious zealots, but that was wrong when she did it.
I'd like to think though that the police would only shoot in self defense, but sadly, many event indicate that this isn't always the case.
Al,
What would happen if a general strike broke out somewhere in USA with riots and all. Would the police shoot...?
I'm not bagging the US here but would they need to?
Now and then when I want to scare myself I look at firearm death stats in the US compared to the rest of the world and wonder what it is that makes all those good people so keen on shooting each other!
Mind you Hollywood has been promoting violence as the the most popular available pastime on a limited budget for a while now ... and that seems unlikely to change. :rolleyes:
jonmanjiro
06-24-2009, 13:34
I didn’t claim it to be a factor; I said it powered the ships, which it did.
What you said was "it was oil from the Persian basin that the British developed, that powered the navy, that prevented the dominance of two greater tyrannies in the 20th century."That's saying considerably more than just "it powered the ships."
Regardless of how you break it down, you're left with "it was oil from the Persian basin that prevented the dominance of two greater tyrannies in the 20th century."
I'm assuming (but could be wrong) that you're referring to WWI and WWII. In the case of WWII, the USA was the Saudi Arabia of the world and the allies were swimming in oil, and in the case of WWI, as stated before, oil to power the navy was a factor in the victory, but oil from the Persian basin alone did not prevent the dominance of a greater tyranny.
I completely agree that the Brits lied and cheated to get the oil, you did fail to mention we also stole the geological surveys from Russia first, he had a bit of style that Cunningham chap, one doesn’t get the epitaph Perfidious Albion for nothing.
There's only so much you can cover in a thread on RFF :rolleyes:
Do you suppose the Iranians would have preferred to be “bombed back to the stone-age” instead being cheated out of it?
Given a choice of A: get bombed back to the stone-age, or B: get cheated out of the oil, I think I'll go for C: get the contractual obligations honoured regardless of how crappy the terms are :D
It was precisely because the British government-controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company did not honour their contractual obligations that democratically elected (and lets not forget secular!) Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq nationalised the oil industry, which then led to America/UK organising a coup and disposing of Mosaddeq and installing the Shah in power, which then led to 26 years of autocratic rule under the Shah (in 1976, Amnesty International concluded that the Shah's CIA trained security force, SAVAK, had the worst human rights record on the planet), which then led to a backlash in the form of the Iranian revolution and the establishment of the Islamic Iranian state in its current form, which then led to the tensions we're seeing now.
Or if you'd like to cut that down to a more sizable mouthful - it was precisely because the British government-controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company did not honour their contractual obligations that we're seeing the tensions in Iran now :bang:
I realise you know all this Stewart, but I'm sure you're also aware that the majority is totally clueless of the history and swallow whatever ABC/BBC/CNN/NBC etc. feeds them hook line and sinker.
Jon;
It seems to me that the Shah's regime was at the end of a chain of events that, I agree, go back to Reilly, Cunningham and Churchill, although Churchill maintained “plausible deniability” until he was safely back in the trenches of the Western Front.
However, the perfidious nature of Allenby dealings in the area, the Ottoman Turks, Russian interest, and later the Shah's nature all played a greater part before the revolution, it looks to me. To put it all at the Admiralty’s door seems simplistic.
Anyway that area has the remains of urban human settlements that go back seven centuries, it has come to the attention of many great powers over the years I can start with Ramesses II and go through to the USA if you wish, I’m not sure Anglo-Iranian had that sort of leverage.
As an aside, the only Brits “swimming in oil” in ww2 were those in mid Atlantic who’s tankers had been shot from beneath them
regarsd Stewart
The only reason this long-political-rant-thread is not moved to 'Off Topic' is that it is not criticising US policies.
The only reason this long-political-rant-thread is not moved to 'Off Topic' is that it is not criticising US policies.
And there was me thinking it was because we were discussing serious issues in a serious manner, and a long as we avoided being disrespectful of each other or taking cheap side-swipes at the administrators we’d be OK, silly me
:)
Murray Kelly
06-25-2009, 05:45
My 'take' on the near east situation is that they are going thru the same position as the christian world did 500 years ago. The renaisance. 1500 years after christianity the state split from religion and there was great upheaval. Islam has the same problem now. Almost to the year!
Given time, they will realise that the two (state/religion) can't be one. Unfortunately the firefight spills over to the rest of us. It took 200 years more for the west to straighten out the relative positions that we now regard as the proper relativity of the one to the other in regard to governance of the people.
One can only hope that the separation of powers will be accelerated by example from outside and we will be spared from all this discord about the value of the 'book' versus the reality of rule by the people.
Murray
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.