View Full Version : Why the digital Pen is a good thing
Ronald_H
06-08-2009, 09:41
Amidst all the negativity (it doesn't have an optical viewfinder, waaaaaaa!!!!) I see a lot of positive points:
- Going on the latest 4rds cameras, image quality will be very good. Comparable to an entry level dSLR, which is by any accounts very good, and way, way better than any P&S (LX-3, G10). Some wail and gnash their teeth because of the slightly less dynamic range of the 4rds sensors, but let's face it, no digicam this small has ever offered comparable image quality (or so it is assumed, I don't own one yet :D)
- It will be really small, truly P&S size.
- Due to small size and the fact that it looks like a P&S it will be very inconspicous. We will be able to take it to places a D200 would never be allowed or stand out too much. That should appeal to us RFF-ers right?
- It will probably be really quiet sans mirror. Also a big plus for RFF-ers.
- It can mount accessory viewfinders. YES, I know about the aspect ratio.
- Like other micro 4rds, it will be able to mount virtually anything. 2x crop or not, my M-lenses will be very useful on it and the F's too, at a pinch.
- The leaked pics show a fast prime. Yay!
- It is rumoured to offer video. A gimmick for some, distasteful for purists, but to hell with them, for many it will be very welcome.
What did I miss?
Disclaimer: There are already many posts addressing the unforgivably moronic oversight of not having an optical viewfinder on it. Let's not do that all over again in this thread shall we?
back alley
06-08-2009, 10:30
same with the g1, it's looks dinky next to a dslr and no one pays me any attention when i'm out with it.
tom.w.bn
06-08-2009, 10:56
- It will probably be really quiet sans mirror. Also a big plus for RFF-ers.
The G1 is surprisingly loud even without mirror. Hopefully Olympus does it better.
You missed built-in IS
flip-out screen for waist level shots
Benjamin
06-08-2009, 11:09
If it has a shoe, surely you guys can just use an aux. finder?
nightfly
06-08-2009, 11:18
Isn't is supposed to be in the neighborhood of $1000?
For half that I'd buy one but really that's far too much particularly in this market. It does look really cool though. The finder thing doesn't bother me in the least.
buzzardkid
06-08-2009, 11:21
...
Disclaimer: There are already many posts addressing the unforgivably moronic oversight of not having an optical viewfinder on it. Let's not do that all over again in this thread shall we?
:D:D:D Allright, I promise, Ronald
bmattock
06-08-2009, 11:32
If it has a shoe, surely you guys can just use an aux. finder?
Of course. Naturally, it is less convenient to shove such a camera in a pocket with an external viewfinder attached, and constantly removing and replacing it is less than optimal as well.
Well that is true, but you are still going have to put up with that stupid look -- of holding a camera a couple of feet in front of your face -- and squinting at the images
The unwashed masses love it - SMS has already made it their second nature to hold a tiny electronic display device at arms length all day.
Sevo
nightfly
06-08-2009, 11:49
I'm sure this same discussion happened on the Viewfinder discussion list when the first film cameras came out. Most people just couldn't imagine not getting under a sheet...
I'm sure this same discussion happened on the Viewfinder discussion list when the first film cameras came out. Most people just couldn't imagine not getting under a sheet...
Now that is funny. :D
bmattock
06-08-2009, 12:36
I'm sure this same discussion happened on the Viewfinder discussion list when the first film cameras came out. Most people just couldn't imagine not getting under a sheet...
That's funny, but what I find interesting is not far from what you speculated - many 'professional' photographers were furious with the notion that anyone could buy a Kodak and take a photograph. The rise of amateur photography, they were sure, was going to destroy their livelihood.
And now in the digital age, we see it again - pros who are utterly convinced that the ease of making photos of high technical quality with low-cost easy-to-use digital cameras will put them out of business, angry, bitter, and convinced that a law ought to be passed to put a stop to it.
The arguments read as if written by the same hand - one hundred years apart.
Now that, I find humorous.
Pickett Wilson
06-08-2009, 12:53
Competition from amateur photographers is the least of the problems pros have making a living these days. If only.
I personally think that the Japanese have forgotten how to make cameras. I would prefer the new iPhone, released today.
I would think people would think of you as a real MAROON if they saw you holding your iPhone up to your eye...."Hey Stooopid, it's a phone... put it by your ear!!!"
There are a few question about his camera that were raised by the member of 43photo forum Riley. This camera maybe something more than we expect. All thread about his camera were closed a few hours ago on that site...
To me this camera is designed to be as much pocketable as possible, with all dials hidden, even the aperture/ shutter wheel is hidden below this part with E-P1 logo. If the lens has automatic lens cover it would be a killer feature.
Here's what he has posted:
"notice the moulding indicated by 'A' rolls under the flash hotshoe mount
notice 2 unusual surfaces 'B', contacts?
notice circle and line 'C', traditional for OVF index
notice irregular green line below LCD
notice 2 holes at front, screws or mic holes
and why have a mode dial like this, it is very unusual. If you look around at the chrome moulding with EP1 written on it, it extends to the l/h side of the camera. It is almost as if the top comes off. A replaceable top deck?"
70491
A good food for thought, isn't it?
Pickett Wilson
06-08-2009, 13:15
I wonder if the real camera even looks like this? ;)
[QUOTE=DanOnRoute66;1071190 I don't understand what you're suggesting in reading tea leaves here but it looks like that black thumbwheel that isn't labeled turns the mode dial you're so baffled about. [/QUOTE]
Well,
If you've read what I've written, not quoted, you would have probably understood that, I was talking about not the PASM dial, but the second one under the lump with the logo. No offence here intended.
Could you please expand why do you thing that this camera is a knock off form G10? I've used briefly, I admit, G10 and Pana G1 and I found those cameras quite a bit apart. I enjoyed Canon's size, while Pana was a nicer camera to use. Just looking at Pen convinces me that it will have rather different feel than Canon. So if you have more experience I would appreciate your feedback.
Thank you
I wonder if the real camera even looks like this? ;)
Thank you! I hope it doesn't, if only to make us all look like real maroons!
Ronald_H
06-08-2009, 23:24
You missed built-in IS
flip-out screen for waist level shots
Hey, someone actually answered my question!
Good points, how could I forget IS? But I'm not so sure the screen will be actually able to do that.
And again those viewfinders :rolleyes: I already said have a beautiful Leitz brightline.
Also, frankly I don't give a cr*p what people think of me when I look at the screen... I get far far worse looks when they see me futzing around with a roll of film or worse still, a TLR! It will be a great camera and system, even without an OVF. Even it is on the expensive side initially, prices will go down.
The last points, the bitter pro, there might be some truth in that. A few weeks back a friend took me to a working pro who had a lot of old analogue gear for sale (Hassy, Leica, Nikon, really nice stuff). Instead of the warm welcome we expected, the guy was nearly hostile when he figured out I was a *gasp* amateur, just doing it for fun. He couldn't stomach the fact that I was willing to buy a lot of expensive gear just to have fun with it, just because I could. And of course he also understood I actually knew what to do with it, but would never ask for money. Ouch.
Look, as long as it has no shutter delay, it'll earn a few goody points. If it's like all other pocket sized digi cams, it'll take the photo when the person has entered the next county, and will therefore be fairly useless.
I hope I'm wrong.
Look, as long as it has no shutter delay, it'll earn a few goody points. If it's like all other pocket sized digi cams, it'll take the photo when the person has entered the next county, and will therefore be fairly useless.
I hope I'm wrong.
I don't really know why you would assume this camera would perform and have the speed of a digital point and shoot. Just because it is the same size? If anything I would expect it to be on par with the Panasonic G1.
I made no assumption, I stated two paths it could take and hoped it wouldn't go the crappy shutter delay one. For example, if they have a mode where it fires even if the focus and exposure is wrong, instantly, I'll be happy.
BillBingham2
06-09-2009, 06:19
If you throw enough money at it (and charge enough for lenses) you can get rid of shutter delay. Nikon and Canon have on their high end DSLRs and Lenses. Are you willing to pay for it though?
I put my GRD into snap mode and have no issues. View finders are a large question, equally important is what options will a person have to focus control.
I do agree, the DPen is a VERY GOOD thing!
B2
Ronald_H
06-09-2009, 07:57
My Lumix LX3 has no perceivable shutter delay, certainly less than a mechanical shutter.
The focus-lock is slow, as in most PS cameras, but if I lock down the focus the shots are instant.
It's not an issue anymore really (I remember how slooooowwww my Sony DSC-S75 was) IF you prefocus.
But... nothing is as fast as a Leica M, shutter delay wise. Last weekend a friend was struggling with the AF on his EOS (he switched to manual eventually). Still, he made the classic mistake of trying to focus on a fast moving object, instead of pre-focusing and firing the shutter when the object comes into focus.
And there I was, with my M2 at 1/1000th, prefocused, knowing I had enough DOF (bright sunshine and Tri-X) and snapping away. I didn't miss a single shot.
No, the Digital Pen won't have that 'feel'. But the G1 was a revelation nevertheless (so compact, so easy to focus, good AF too). I have high hopes for the Olympus!
But... nothing is as fast as a Leica M, shutter delay wise.
Except the ZI-M. :D
emraphoto
06-09-2009, 15:53
Hey, someone actually answered my question!
Good points, how could I forget IS? But I'm not so sure the screen will be actually able to do that.
And again those viewfinders :rolleyes: I already said have a beautiful Leitz brightline.
Also, frankly I don't give a cr*p what people think of me when I look at the screen... I get far far worse looks when they see me futzing around with a roll of film or worse still, a TLR! It will be a great camera and system, even without an OVF. Even it is on the expensive side initially, prices will go down.
The last points, the bitter pro, there might be some truth in that. A few weeks back a friend took me to a working pro who had a lot of old analogue gear for sale (Hassy, Leica, Nikon, really nice stuff). Instead of the warm welcome we expected, the guy was nearly hostile when he figured out I was a *gasp* amateur, just doing it for fun. He couldn't stomach the fact that I was willing to buy a lot of expensive gear just to have fun with it, just because I could. And of course he also understood I actually knew what to do with it, but would never ask for money. Ouch.
There are "bitter pro's" and then there are working photographers. The "bitter pro" is busy making excuses while the working photographer is busy making photo's!
As per the digital pen I applaud olympus for their efforts and will reserve judgement until I can actually take one for a spin.
There are a few question about his camera that were raised by the member of 43photo forum Riley. This camera maybe something more than we expect. All thread about his camera were closed a few hours ago on that site...
To me this camera is designed to be as much pocketable as possible, with all dials hidden, even the aperture/ shutter wheel is hidden below this part with E-P1 logo. If the lens has automatic lens cover it would be a killer feature.
Here's what he has posted:
"notice the moulding indicated by 'A' rolls under the flash hotshoe mount
notice 2 unusual surfaces 'B', contacts?
notice circle and line 'C', traditional for OVF index
notice irregular green line below LCD
notice 2 holes at front, screws or mic holes
and why have a mode dial like this, it is very unusual. If you look around at the chrome moulding with EP1 written on it, it extends to the l/h side of the camera. It is almost as if the top comes off. A replaceable top deck?"
70491
A good food for thought, isn't it?
Just want to clear a few things that were perhaps said a bit too soon by the original poster of that info. I'll address the points by the letters used to label them:
a - The unusually molding that looks a bit like a lip is present on all olympus DSLRs
b - Those things that certainly can look like contacts on that lip molding are also present on all Olympus DSLRs.
c - The circle through the line symbolizes where the sensor is, or in film cameras where the film is. I think it's called the plane index, and it's useful for calculating correct nodal points with tripods. It's present on every one of the Olympus DSLRs, and in fact most cameras ever made. It isn't the OVF index.
Irregular green line under LCD - I'm pretty sure thats just a clear plastic LCD protector thats peeling away from the screen at the top.
2 Holes at the front - I'd bet they're Mic holes, being 2 of them, and not having any mic holes on the top plate while the camera has HD video. maybe it has stereo sound? The location and the fact that there are 2 points to the possibility.
I wonder if the real camera even looks like this? ;)
That one in the pics definitely isn't a photoshop job or a computer made thing - the camera in the picture itself is distorted by having a wide-ish angle lens up close to the E-P1. There are reflections everywhere as well - it's definitely a real camera.
For all we know though, it could be a prototype in the design process and not the final model? It's a pretty polished looking design though... Usually camera prototypes are very plane jane.
I'll go out on a limb right now and say that these wonderful features most of you are reading into this won't come to pass. Forgive me but I don't see any of the things that those arrows and letters are pointing to. And using an auxiliary viewfinder? Who's going to make it? Do you seriously think Olympus is going to make something that smacks of mid-20th century technology? Hey, don't get me wrong, I love my Kiev rangefinders and was floored when Cosina brought out new versions of stuff in Contax and Nikon rangefinder mount. But you can see how long that stuff lasted; it's already out of production and I'll bet Cosina didn't sell 10,000 of 'em over the whole run of several years. "A replaceable top deck?" I don't understand what you're suggesting in reading tea leaves here but it looks like that black thumbwheel that isn't labeled turns the mode dial you're so baffled about. My guess is that this camera will amount to little more than a knockoff of the Canon PowerShot G1. But if Olympus can make a knockoff for a few bucks cheaper, it will serve its purpose, I guess.
The Olympus is set apart from any canon point and shoot by it's sensor which is a DSLR sensor, and it's interchangeable lenses. It's on another planet to any canon powershot.
Look, as long as it has no shutter delay, it'll earn a few goody points. If it's like all other pocket sized digi cams, it'll take the photo when the person has entered the next county, and will therefore be fairly useless.
I hope I'm wrong.
I've read in a few different places that people seem to think it is going to have the same AF system as the Panasonic G1. I think thats an 11 pt AF, and the G1 is pretty damn quick and accurate.
BillBingham2
06-09-2009, 17:46
As you note shutter delay, is avoidable in most high end cameras, by learning not to have it. RTFM :D
I used to ask if they had broken the shrink wrap on the manual that came with the XXXXXXX (insert computer, printer, camera, car)?
RTFM was my mantra for many years. Now with so many people knowing about SMS/Texting they have figured it out, UGH.
B2 (;->
Rick Waldroup
06-09-2009, 17:48
Gavin, I love your enthusiasm over this new camera and it is something I share. I recently converted from Nikon to the 4/3 system a little over a year ago and have really enjoyed it. And I am super turned on by the prospects of this camera. I am a street shooter and so far, I like what I see.
The camera will have contrast detect AF, which on the Pana G1 is lightning quick, and focusing on many of todays cameras counts (in common parlance) as part of the shutter delay time. If the shutter simply fires when the button is pressed it will be on a par with just about any other camera in the 'above P&S class'. It will also write quickly, as do all larger than P&S cameras. There can be no reason to suspect it won't write as quickly as any Olympus DSLR, maybe faster. And of course write speed is part of what should be counted in the shutter delay debate, because it isn't just about the initial shutter press, but the time it takes to get to the next one. This is what ultimately makes the P&S class overall slower than bigger cameras, they have a tiny brain.
Then there is the criticism of dynamic range from the OP. Well yes, if as so often happens you simply assume dynamic range is all about the highlight end the 4/3rds sensor does at the moment lag behind. But hang on, it also has more range in the shadows than many DSLR's in the 'enthusiast' division. This is something forgotten, and any Olympus user knows to expose to the left and then wonder why people always assume you have problems with DR.
The Olympus sensor is also likely to be the latest as used in the Panasonic GH1. The older G1 sensor was shown to have more resolution than a Nikon D3, so isn't this newer sensor going to be a perfect platform for what are traditionally extremely good Olympus lenses, not to mention any good legacy lenses like Leica M? Olympus are close to Leica in lens manufacture/quality, so the idea the whole package will simply be 'P&S' quality is asburd.
And in terms even more extreme speculation, I agree that from the photo posted with pointers to various features, there does seem to be something going on around the flash shoe that isn't strictly cosmetic. I think there will be an small EVF finder that pops on, and if its as good the Pana G1's EVF, then this could make it a very versatile rangefinder like camera.
Steve
AJShepherd
06-10-2009, 01:09
Steve (250swb) floats the idea of a clip-on EVF. Weill if Ricoh could do that for the GX100 & GX200, then it's not beyond the realms of possibility (and would be extra-cool if it swivelled like the one on the Ricoh).
We've not seen what's under that hotshoe cover...!
Personally the idea of a camera which gives DSLR quality but fits in a pocket is what appeals to me. It's why I bought a Sigma DP1, and it's why I'll be selling that off to help fund the purchase of the new Olympus.
Pancake lens - fits in pocket, but I can carry a zoom in my bag if I want more flexibility.
Mind you, we're all going to feel like idiots if that picture turns out to be a fake!
Ronald_H
06-10-2009, 04:35
Then there is the criticism of dynamic range from the OP. Well yes, if as so often happens you simply assume dynamic range is all about the highlight end the 4/3rds sensor does at the moment lag behind. But hang on, it also has more range in the shadows than many DSLR's in the 'enthusiast' division. This is something forgotten, and any Olympus user knows to expose to the left and then wonder why people always assume you have problems with DR.
Steve
I never said that, I said others make it into a problem. I can expose, even slides in my M2, thank you.
ZeissFan
06-10-2009, 04:58
Here's the thing for those of you planning to use your manual focus lenses. Without a viewfinder, how do you plan to focus the lens? You'll have no choice but to hold it in front of your face while you focus the lens.
Now, combine that with the fact that many of the buyers will be middle-aged photographers who are losing their ability to see up close, and you'll either reach for the bifocals or give up in frustration.
I think the best option will be to use an autofocus lens and an auxiliary viewfinder.
Perhaps the camera will have an electronic viewfinder so that you can focus manually. Otherwise, I don't expect using this camera with manual focus lenses to be an enjoyable experience if you're relegated to using the LCD screen.
I'm looking forward to seeing the official photos and specs for this model.
BillBingham2
06-10-2009, 05:24
Myself I'm hoping for two different EVFs. One lower cost for use with wide angles. Something of a High EyePoint, around $100 street. Like the Ricoh. The other much better quality for work with short and long telephotos, street around $500. But it really needs to be as good as a good DSLR viewfinder.
I'm also hoping for two different body styles.
It's going to be interesting to see how Olympus sets the world on it's edge again.
B2 (;->
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