RFF Classified Guidelines Revised

[CameraQuest]

Thanks to some recent problems, RFF Classifieds have been revised as follows:

2) PAYMENTS to Seller: Paypal and postal money orders are good ways to make payment and have some recourse if the item is not as advertised or not received. It is strongly recommended that buyers do NOT make payment by bank wire transfer or Western Union, as this allows the buyer little recourse if there are problems. Sellers may not require payment by bank wire transfer or Western Union.

Thanks
Stephen

[oldoc]

Thanks, Stephen.
There are fruitcakes among us.
I purchased a Summilux from tonys today, only to have the idiot have second thoughts about the sale and email me later an say that he was retaining the lens.
I have learned my lesson. Buy from folks with more posts, and tell the others to go to hell...
Michael

[peter_n]

tonys is a member. The ad is still in the classifieds. I thought it was a nice lens too...

[oldoc]

Absolutely NOT Tony Rose, we are talking about an idividual member who negotiates a sale, then, after a money transfer, decides not to sell, but leaves the ad on classifieds.
Rose is as honorable as the day is long. It is RFF membership which has unstable people.

[bob338]

i got pretty upset a few months ago when someone listed a canon 25mm very cheap and reneged on the deal. naturally, he had 0 posts.
i think most of this would be solved by adopting the stevehoffman.tv classifieds rules that i've suggested a bunch of times; 30 days and at least 50 posts. it really weeds out the idiots...

bob

[oldoc]

No LOST money, just 1700 dollars and a lot of time wasted on someone who had 4 posts reneging on a purchase.

[oldoc]

Still posted as a pre-aspherical Summilux in the lenses area of the RFF classifieds. Ad still not withdrawn despite a very clear email from me.

[oldoc]

Nikonwebmaster, why advertise the lens if you are not gonna sell it??
Ad had been around for about 2 days.
I hesitated, noting that he only had 4 posts, but thought, heck, I only had that many once as well....
So much I know...
Thoroughly agree with Bob338

[35mmdelux]

30 days and at least 50 posts. it really weeds out the idiots...

bob


AND references as well.

[oldoc]

Yeah, 35, I have seen you say that before....
Excellent counsel.

[kshapero]

Thanks, Stephen.
There are fruitcakes among us.
I purchased a Summilux from tonys today, only to have the idiot have second thoughts about the sale and email me later an say that he was retaining the lens.
I have learned my lesson. Buy from folks with more posts, and tell the others to go to hell...
Michaelyes you should buy only from frequent posters or someone with good references, but just because you should not :cool:buy from a poster with say 2 posts does not mean he needs to go to hell. Chill out dude.

[mgd711]

Despite being fairly new here I agree with the idea that people have to have a minimum number of posts and maybe also a minimum length of time as a member before being allowed to sell.

I've bought ton's from E Bay and a few items from guys here but will never used anything other than Paypal to pay for the goods.

[kshapero]

Absolutely NOT Tony Rose, we are talking about an idividual member who negotiates a sale, then, after a money transfer, decides not to sell, but leaves the ad on classifieds.
Rose is as honorable as the day is long. It is RFF membership which has unstable people.
Dude, CHILL OUT. Come to think of it, you are one those newbie posters you were talking about.

[CameraQuest]

i got pretty upset a few months ago when someone listed a canon 25mm very cheap and reneged on the deal. naturally, he had 0 posts.
i think most of this would be solved by adopting the stevehoffman.tv classifieds rules that i've suggested a bunch of times; 30 days and at least 50 posts. it really weeds out the idiots...

bob

Some people join RFF just to sell excess gear. Some people visit RFF just to buy gear. Not too long ago we had classified problems from several members who had posted for years.

Problems can happen at either end of the sale, to experienced and non experienced members alike. There will be no time or posting requirements in order to place ads.

Stephen

[35mmdelux]

There will be no time or posting requirements in order to place ads.

Stephen

well, there you go, Oldoc. the judge has spoken. P.

[George S.]

Some people join RFF just to sell excess gear. Some people visit RFF just to buy gear. Not too long ago we had classified problems from several members who had posted for years.

Problems can happen at either end of the sale, to experienced and non experienced members alike. There will be no time or posting requirements in order to place ads.

Stephen

Wow. Common sense. Thank you, Stephen. I wouldn't want to see a minimum 50 posts before someone is allowed to sell. They could just waste everyone's time posting 50 useless comments, mucking up the discussions to get to the magic 50.

[kshapero]

I saw a RFF ad from a guy with only 2 posts. He gave a 100% Positive at Ebay over 400 sells. And a reference from, I think, PhotoVillage. I bought the item. All went well.

[oldoc]

Well, you'll note my message was not to insist that there needs to be a requirement to sell for the forum. With all due respect to the head bartender, I CAN, however, reserve the manner in which I choose to spend MY money to those who are more well-known or more frequent visitors. I have bought things here before, and have seen members go out of their way to be a straight arrow. As a matter of fact, I have done so myself, and there are several RFF members who will confirm this. All I can say is that the people I have dealt with ho had a history here valued their membership more, and I suspect they would not want the folks they communicate with every day to think they had stiffed another member. Although I am not he bartender, nor a member for years, I have a lot of respect for a number of the people here.
Further, there is no need to "chill out", as has been suggested in a flippant, silly manner in this thread. Until you have had the thought that someone is about to try to walk away from a deal with YOUR 1700 dollars, you probably should refrain from blanket statements such as "chill out, dude" to people who have had the experience. Frankly, it makes you sound like you have an immediate and personal familiarity with mind-altering drugs, and causes others to give very little credence to your thoughts.
To others, thanks for the human concern, and for their appropriate righteous indignation. I don't need to chill because I am not "hot", just raising an important (in my opinion only) point.
And to the Head Bartender, thanks for being there, and "cheers"...

[kshapero]

Thanks, Stephen.
Buy from folks with more posts, and tell the others to go to hell...
Michael
As I politely said before, chill out, is the required response. We've all been burned before.

[oldoc]

GeorgeS's point is extremely well taken, BTW.
There are certainly ways to get around the rules if you want to do so.
The important lesson here, for all of us is not to sell, or buy in haste and regret in leisure. No one forces us to use this part of the forum. It is voluntary.
"Do unto others ..." is a good guide here as it is in life in general.
I forgive the mistake, and I am sure, after contact, that the seller is remorseful, so it is not about him. I won't even mention member name. Just keep in mind that there IS another person on the other end of the deal, and do unto others...

[dcsang]

Well, this is Stephen's forum and he can do with it as he pleases; rules and all :D That said, I watch and wait and see who sells in the classifieds - those regular members, I have no concern with - the odd member who only has a few posts but has been around a while, I'll ask references from, those with 0 posts and just joined a couple months back I'll mention that references may be a good idea but I'll avoid buying from.

Stephen's not implementing any rules and, as I said, his forum, his rules - all I know is there's still a $5 fee (which is inexpensive compared to Fred Miranda which charges $25 per year - depending on how much gear you sell annually) per sale that goes to "someone" (either Jorge or Stephen) at the end of the day so limiting who can sell would not be in their financial interest, especially if they're running and paying for a busy forum such as this one :)

Cheers,
Dave

[back alley]

limits can be imposed by the buyers.
if you don't want people selling who have less than 30 posts then just don't buy from people with less than 30 posts.

buyer beware...

[35mmdelux]

I've noticed alot of sellers recently with zero (0) posts. Makes you wonder. I always pass on these opportunities.

[35mmdelux]

"Frankly, it makes you sound like you have an immediate and personal familiarity with mind-altering drugs, and causes others to give very little credence to your thoughts."

LOL. Oldoc, you have a way with words.

[maddoc]

I bought my Noctilux here at RFF from a member with at that time quite low posting count (I had actually never seen any post from him before I bought that lens) and it turned out to be one of the smoothest and safest transactions ever. :) Interestingly, most of the gear I have sold here (and that was a lot) was bought by members who just joined to be able to PM me and there was never any posting from them.

"Buyer beware" and using Paypal is a better approach than minimum posting count or membership time, IMHO.

[tonys]

Hello All,

I'm the offending party here in the deal involving Michael.

I have privately apologised to Michael for backing out of the deal. It is clearly the wrong thing to do.

Michael, my apologies again.

Tony

[JohnM]

Given his reaction, Tony, you're probably better off this way.

Cheers.

John

[David Murphy]

Thanks to some recent problems, RFF Classifieds have been revised as follows:

2) PAYMENTS to Seller: Paypal and postal money orders are good ways to make payment and have some recourse if the item is not as advertised or not received. It is strongly recommended that buyers do NOT make payment by bank wire transfer or Western Union, as this allows the buyer little recourse if there are problems. Sellers may not require payment by bank wire transfer or Western Union.

Thanks
Stephen
These are reasonable propositions, however I want to make a few points. Wire transfers are very common in Europe where banks tend to be considerably more small-customer friendly. Here in the US they are expensive, often a hassle, and yes, sometimes a vehicle for fraud. PayPal offers little protection for the buyer or seller. PayPal "buyer protection" applies to the seller and to purchases made through eBay only. There was a time early in the life of PayPal where this protection was for all usage. It has limitations, even with eBay purchases however. I regard it primarily as a marketing gimmick. For some reason the concept of "buyer protection" for PayPal outside of eBay seems to persist, a tribute to PayPal's savvy marketing.

If a buyer uses a credit card to pay through PayPal the credit card charge can be reversed by an unhappy or fraudulent buyer regardless of what PayPal wants. This is one reason PayPal tries to dissuade the use of credit cards. This is a great danger for sellers taking PayPal for expensive items - they can lose everything in a chargeback and it has happened to many.

USPS Money orders can be cashed if the post office has the funds on hand. This puts cash in the hands of the sellers, so there is little risk for sellers so long as they make sure they can cash them before they ship the goods. USPS Money order fraud is rampant, so I recommend cashing the MO first!

Western Union transfers, like most other payment systems have been savaged by the PayPal/eBay marketeers since they compete with PayPal. What is rarely pointed out however is that they are perfectly safe for the sellers since cash is put in their hands and quickly. Western Union is most useful when selling to individuals in countries that have broken postal systems and are risky to ship to, or where the banking systems are underdeveloped (and generally both). This affords those individuals who can buy in those countries that possibility when otherwise they could not (assuming they are willing to accept the risk and expense). This is a common money transfer system in the third world, where cash is still king, and individuals are generally accepting of it.

In summary, there is no current payment system that can protect both parties. All systems either share risk or slant risk asymmetrically to the buyer or seller. Trust is therefore the most important element. The greater the amount of money that is changing hands the greater that element of trust should be. Personally I have a HIGH level of trust in members here, almost without exception.

[oldoc]

Perhaps it would be revealing to canvass as many members as possible to see just how frequent classified issues are. Judging from what I can tell, most members have not had an issue. That would be my opinion, or hope. Maybe trust is a thing best kept under wraps these days: I really don't want to believe that. I have had one other deal canceled, with a member well-respected here. It was handled very differently, and we are still friends, and I email HIM about his opinion, even as recently as this week.
I don't any more know what the answer is than I understand JohnM's point in his contribution to this thread (other than taking a backhanded swipe at me and several others here, undeserved) but I do know that I plan on selling two or three things soon, once I find a nice 50lux preaspherical. It is a little refreshing to be considered a "newbie poster" or newbie at anything when you are in your 50's, so I'll take it in a complementary manner. We all need to keep this sort of event in mind when we sell or buy.
I do respect tonys for his response: it takes more character to admit wrong than it does to "blow it off". I'd hate to think everyone here has been burned here before. I think Stephen would have written a far different OP if this were the case.

[mwooten]

Hello All,

I'm the offending party here in the deal involving Michael.

I have privately apologised to Michael for backing out of the deal. It is clearly the wrong thing to do.

Michael, my apologies again.

Tony

Tony,
Good on you to man up in public.

--(another) michael

[tonys]

Thanks Michael,

Owning up was the least I could do.

What I did was wrong.

The whole system breaks down if people engage in this fashion.

I thank Michael "Oldoc" for giving me a good old fashioned "kick up the backside".

I wont be doing it again.

Regards,

Tony

[__hh]

Looking back at my previous experiences here at RFF, I have been involved in (and have been guilty of making) deals just to find out that either the seller or buyer having a change in circumstances (or remorse) and asking to back out.

I think the most important thing is to try and contact the counterpart in a prompt, courteous and professional manner. What ever happens, one has to make sure that all funds are repaid accordingly in a timely manner.

I was the "other guilty party" in Michaels' other experience, but I am grateful that things worked out for both of us.

I have also had sellers changing their mind on the sale after I have paid the agreed $$$ amount. Yes, I was disappointed (just the same way as I have disappointed others).

At the end of the day, I see that no-deal-made (assuming that neither party has lost anything) is collectively much better than a regrettable deal.

[Daan]

What's the difference between paying with paypall or bank transfer?
I'm selling some stuff in the classifieds and i don't have paypall. Bank transfer at least in the netherlands is a pretty normal way to pay.

[sepiareverb]

All but one deal I've made through the classifieds has been perfect, even with those of low post count. A simple request for and checking of some references can go a long way. Wire transfers involving Europe and the US can be a bit tiresome if one doesn't live in a city- my local bank never managed to get it to work in one case. And there are occasionally the immensely frustrating troubles with shipping- eh nobbylon? In my experience, every case, even with difficulties, everything has remained friendly- not something I can say about ebay. And here I've actually spoken with sellers & buyers on the phone, I consider that a plus.

Having been on the seller side of a bad transaction I'm now more careful than ever to be sure I've got everything right before I hit "Place This Ad".

[Disaster_Area]

From what I've seen, sour deals, either here or on FM etc are like plane crashes... you only hear about the ones that go down in flames, the millions that make it there safely every year never make the headlines. I trust this site and others more than I'll ever trust eBay even IF paypall protects ebay. On the whole you're buying from people that:

A) generally know all the ins and outs of what they're selling and can identify faults in items an ebayer would put "10/10 MINT!!" on.

B) want to continue using this service to buy and sell, as we've seen the bad apples get exposed pretty quickly and get the boot

C) eBay is walmart, this is your local swap meet only bigger... we're a community with a face, names, history and a vested interest in not being ripped off ourselves. I've always been afraid that this and other sites would become food for the rampant scams/frauds/thieves that frequent eBay/Kijiji/Craigslist etc but it seems to continue not happenning and I'm really happy about that.

[oldoc]

Some people get very angry over lots of things. Some couldn't be angered over much of anything. You can't tell from reading their posts WHICH is the case. To think you can implies a greater degree of knowledge than any of us actually has in our lives. I think the lesson here is to read what is written carefully, and not try make too many assumptions about what others' thoughts or emotions might be. To make assumptions, and come to conclusions based on them, often makes us look very bad, very unfair, or very foolish and intolerant of the feelings of others. Would ask the post even mentioning the possibility of Tony Rose being involved in a bad deal (by mistake, obviously) be removed by moderator.

[kshapero]

Some people get very angry over lots of things. Some coukdn't be angered over much of anything. You can't tell from reading their posts WHICH is the case. To think you can implies a greater degree of knowledge than any of us actually has in our lives. I think the lesson here is to read what is written carefully, and not try make too many assumptions about what others' thoughts or emotions might be. To make assumptions, and come to conclusions based on them, often makes us look very bad, very unfair, or very foolish and intolerant of the feelings of others.
Like telling others to go to hell?

[digitalintrigue]

Clarification on the rule change:

"2) PAYMENTS to Seller: Paypal and postal money orders are good ways to make payment and have some recourse if the item is not as advertised or not received. It is strongly recommended that buyers do NOT make payment by bank wire transfer or Western Union, as this allows the buyer little recourse if there are problems. Sellers may not require payment by bank wire transfer or Western Union."

The last sentence: does this mean sellers CANNOT require payment by bank wire or Western Union?

[oldoc]

Now that you mention it, yes.
But "chill out,Dude" or, more directly, "you're just angry because...." come to mind just as much, or more.
Because you can THINK some things without SAYING them.
My practice of buying and selling will change here, without question. There has been a good deal of important information exchanged here.
Then there are the other posts...

[David Murphy]

Paypal gives you almost total buyer's protection, if you do not receive the item, you will get your money back. A wire transfer offers no such protection.

However if you know the seller well, or the seller is highly recommended or well known, a wire transfer is fine. I have done it many times.
Not quite correct. The main point I have been trying to make here is that there is no such thing as PayPal Buyer Protection outside of eBay (and even eBay limits it in various ways). This article outlines the facts pretty well:

http://thebrewsnews.com/2009/05/04/paypal-buyer-protection-vs-paypal-buyer-complaint-process/

Read the PayPal terms of service, which are complicated, lengthy and generally totally rigged in favor of PayPal. PayPal is not an honorable business. If you don't believe me look at the many Web sites out there filled with countless PayPal horror stories (I have one or two of my own). Thus trust is all we really have: the original Buyer/Seller Protection!

[dcsang]

I would agree with David that Paypal is not foolproof - outside of Ebay there's little that can be done - after all, Paypal is in it for Paypal - they don't give two sh*ts about the guy/girl who's lost $100 on a purchase if they didn't buy via Ebay.

I have offered and informed, for all those in Canada, to use Interac Email Transfer - a service offered by most of the major Canadian banks ( http://www.interac.ca/consumers/productsandservices_ol_emt.php ):
BMO Bank of Montreal
CIBC
Prospera Credit Union
RBC Royal Bank of Canada
Scotiabank
TD Canada Trust

Costs are less to the seller (who usually absorbs the excessive PayPal fee) and the money is received almost immediately INTO THE SELLERS BANK ACCOUNT (unlike PayPal). Because of that I usually cut a bit better of a deal (be it shipping via express shipping or a reduction in the cost of the item) with the buyer.

There are a lot of options out there - PayPal may be the most widely known but it's far from the "perfect" option for many folks :)

Cheers,
Dave

[sanmich]

It seems indeed that trust is the most valuable thing here.
I think the feedback system is not very active.
I have no real idea how to improve it, but a real, rich enough feedback would really do the trick in terms of knowing who you are dealing with.
For example, you could learn that a certain person is not extremely careful when examining the gear he sells, but is a perfect gentleman when it comes to solve the issue (happened to me more than once). You could chosoe to go further in your questions with such a seller, or chose not to take chances if it's international etc...
A detailed feedback with different parameters would really make the place safer and nicer IMHO.

And Michael, I'm sure the whole experience was not very pleasant, but freeing some steam over a forum is usually not very helpful and turns the whole atmosphere (if everyone feels free to call other by names and advise other on places to visit) into a boxing ring.
In my book, you have not complained about a problem or argue about it, but simply been rude and insulting to Tony and Akiva.

[PhotoMat]

On potentially risky transactions, I use a credit card when paying via PayPal as opposed to a transfer from my bank account as an added layer of protection, . I've purchased some high-ticket items and have gotten some great deals from sellers on Ebay with low feedback numbers simply because others have been reluctant to bid because of low feedback. You have to start somewhere. Making several banal posts on an online forum doesn't necessarily make one an honorable person. As a buyer, it is my responsibility to conduct a little due diligence on my part. As a seller, I try to establish a clear and helpful line of communication with buyers that extends beyond the sale. That being said, we always take a gamble when we buy online, and for the most part, people are honest and things proceed as planned.

[oldoc]

The question is, though, what are the markers for "potentially risky" transactions. That is what I am now struggling, not insulting, with. I have to admit, I must be somewhat blessed: I have had 215 positive feedbacks on ebay both as a buyer and a seller, which admittedly is relatively a small sample. I have sold a number of things successfully here, and bought some nice things here as well, making friends all the way along. It came as a surprise to me that PayPal is not as safe as some say it is purported. That is based primarily on a lack of problems, mostly.
Yes, I have had small items broken and refunded, even though it was the shipping company who carried the blame. You hear about scams, etc. on ebay when you read this forum, but there again, I haven't seen this in roughly 230 transactions.
I admit I am uncertain how to recognize the riskier ones, unless I get an email from Nigeria about a cash transfer, or one about a lottery in Australia...

[historicist]

As far as I know Paypal offers basically no protection outside of ebay and only additional costs to the seller coupled with convenience (especially for transactions where international bank transfers might be expensive).

In England it is very uncommon to pay by bank transfer, while in the EU it is pretty normal - on German ebay anyway, almost no one even accepts Paypal.

I would personally never buy anything in a purely private sale (rff, anywhere) where I could not afford to lose the payment. Anything high value, the amount of money you might save is far outweighed by the reliability of dealing with a reputable shop which will stand behind its products and offer a guarantee. And there are very few things that are so rare and unusual that a month or two of waiting won't turn them up at a reputable shop at a good price.

[JohnM]

I think 215 feedbacks is a pretty solid number -- if I was entering into a deal where the other guy has 215 positive transactions, I'd be comfortable.

As it pertains to RFF, I'm always more comfortable dealing with names that I recognize - I don't "know" anyone here, but if the guy on the other side of the transaction is familiar from his/her posting, I'm more at ease.

The first contact is also important to me. I can't explain it, but sometimes you just a bad vibe from someone - it's completely subjective, but I generally follow my instincts when it happens.

[nobbylon]

What's the difference between paying with paypall or bank transfer?
I'm selling some stuff in the classifieds and i don't have paypall. Bank transfer at least in the netherlands is a pretty normal way to pay.

Paypal is a pain in the @@se. I'm in the Nederlands also and bank transfer is the way nearly every transaction I do gets performed.

I've sold quite a lot of high end items on here and requested payment via wire transfer and I've only once had someone not want to do it. No problem, I get it that some people are more cautious than others.
I've also bought some high end kit with transfer on here.
It is about trust and I think it's up to every individual to decide if they are happy or not.
The most difficult logistically was when I sold to Sepiareverb in the US, but between us on the phone we sorted out wire transfer and shipping no problem. Paypal doesn't offer the same protections cross continent outside ebay anyway and I do think Stephen, that you should consider personal agreement between members as an option,
It's a TRUST thing!

[bob338]

It's a TRUST thing!


should i trust the guy in Russia with 0 posts that has PM'd me three times about buying my M6 in the classifieds and shipping it to a different address in Minnesota?

bob

[digitalintrigue]

Perhaps there could be a system of 'trusted sellers/buyers.' I'm not sure how it would be implemented or even if Stephen would be interested in such an idea, but it may be worth a look.

[PhotoMat]

The question is, though, what are the markers for "potentially risky" transactions.

Aside from the obvious scam markers, communication plays a big part in my risk assessment of an online transaction. If I ask specific questions regarding an item, I expect the seller to be equally specific and address each question. If, after a few emails, the seller continues to be vague or unable to directly answer my query, I choose to avoid dealing with the individual. I also judge the quality of the communication -- if the seller conducts himself in an intelligent and professional manner, then things will most likely be O.K. If the seller sounds like a doofus, chances are he probably is.

Regarding feedback and post history, who would you deem as more trustworthy -- a four year member with 100 posts or a four month member with 400 posts? More often than not, it just boils down to your gut feeling. The more you talk with an individual, the better you will get a "feel" for what that person is like.

[oldoc]

Probably not, Bob...
Wish they were all that simple.
How about the person with no posts here but a bag FULL of the best gear you could think of, all aspherical, 35lux, M7, etc., who has "been a member of the photonet community for many years"?

[35mmdelux]

Wasn't Bernard Madeoff the highest trusted financier on Wall St before he absconded with $60 Billion? The list goes on...buyer be ware.

[digitalintrigue]

Of course, buyer and seller beware. Sure would be nice to have a better (more well known) feedback system. I haven't had any bad deals here, either buying or selling. I did have one seller that was rather flaky (bob338 knows who I'm speaking of) and he was, predictably, a new member. But there was no money loss, and there wasn't a scam of any sort.

[35mmdelux]

PayPal is not an honorable business. !

I sold an M6 on ePrey only to have the $1200 reversed on Christmas eve 2008, two weeks after Paypal had approved the transaction and I had shipped the camera to NYC.

After multiple emails to Paypal and finally phone calls, they told me I had to eat it because I had not requested a signed return card from the buyer (the green one). Insurance and delivery confirmation was not accepted as proof of delivery.

Stunned, I emailed the buyer multiple times and he was reluctant to believe my story at first lthough I included screenshots of the pertinent data. Eventually he followed up and 2 weeks later sent me a check to cover. In total, 5 weeks after I shipped the camera I received pmt. It took him 3 more months to settle with Paypal and get HIS money.

Moral: Dont trust Paypal. Look at Paypal as but one element of the deal.

[digitalintrigue]

Curious why they reversed it?

Anything over $250 needs a signature release, delivery confirmation is not good enough. This is all spelled out in the ebay/paypal seller protection guidelines.

[nobbylon]

should i trust the guy in Russia with 0 posts that has PM'd me three times about buying my M6 in the classifieds and shipping it to a different address in Minnesota?

bob

Bob,
did you read over the bit where I said it was up to each individual to decide if they are happy or not?:bang:
j:)

[bob338]

Probably not, Bob...
Wish they were all that simple.
How about the person with no posts here but a bag FULL of the best gear you could think of, all aspherical, 35lux, M7, etc., who has "been a member of the photonet community for many years"?

my first thought with anyone selling a bag full of that kind of gear would be that it's probably stolen.
secondly i would wonder why they weren't selling it over on pnet where they have a track record.

bob

[bob338]

Bob,
did you read over the bit where I said it was up to each individual to decide if they are happy or not?:bang:
j:)

i understand what you're saying. i'm trying to point out that it is much easier to develop that trust when there are guidelines in place that aren't simple suggestions. right now anyone with $5 can post anything they want on here and keep your money. you really have no recourse if you get screwed other than a very difficult and questionable process with paypal. if you use money orders, you have to involve the postal service and possibly small claims court. if you wire or m/o someone money out of your home country, you'll likely never get it back.
i don't understand the resistance to this 30 days/50 posts idea. what harm would it do anyone? let the creeps take their headaches to another venue...

bob

[oldoc]

Careful, Bob, you might insult someone, too....

[bob338]

Careful, Bob, you might insult someone, too....

i sure don't want to insult anyone. this is by far the best photography website around and i would hate to see it start to resemble pnet or the leica user forum, or whatever it's called.
it is supposed to be a community and i don't consider people selling
a.imaginary gear,
b.their grandfathers precious leica full of fungus, or
c.a 'brand new, 2 rolls i swear!' m7 for $1200
to be part of the community.
i'm not an isolationist by any means, but these ads seem to be 1 step away from being inundated with daily threads asking 'what is this leica i found in my fathers closet worth?'

just my .02

bob

[kshapero]

should i trust the guy in Russia with 0 posts that has PM'd me three times about buying my M6 in the classifieds and shipping it to a different address in Minnesota?

bobsure, after you have received the money and your bank tells you it is good.

[35mmdelux]

Curious why they reversed it?

Anything over $250 needs a signature release, delivery confirmation is not good enough. This is all spelled out in the ebay/paypal seller protection guidelines.

Insured packages must be signed for and its posted on the Postal Sevice website for easy retrieval. I did this and paypal could have viewed it as well if they wanted to.

Why were the charges reversed after paypal approved? I speculate that the buyer's CC may have been shy a few bucks of the total (Christmas season) and therefore the whole thing bounced. With the Billions transacted by PP they should have a system in place to catch insufficent funds.

Today, I look at the whole package before I ship. Number of buys, amount transacted, location, and the value of the item sold. Any of these dont look right I wont ship.

[35mmdelux]

sure, after you have received the money and your bank tells you it is good.

I've made several 'Blad shipments to the Ukraine, bless their hearts. Each time I received Western Union substantial pmts and ship Express Global. They come in under Europe, since ePrey doesnt have a EurAsia check box. However, I no longer ship to Ubekistan given the political turmoil, sorry.

[dcsang]

i sure don't want to insult anyone. this is by far the best photography website around and i would hate to see it start to resemble pnet or the leica user forum, or whatever it's called.
it is supposed to be a community and i don't consider people selling
a.imaginary gear,
b.their grandfathers precious leica full of fungus, or
c.a 'brand new, 2 rolls i swear!' m7 for $1200
to be part of the community.
i'm not an isolationist by any means, but these ads seem to be 1 step away from being inundated with daily threads asking 'what is this leica i found in my fathers closet worth?'

just my .02

bob

I agree with Bob here regarding this being a COMMUNITY - this is how I personally treat it, and, I believe, others treat it as well. It is, by far, the most civil Net/Web forum I've visited save for the old PDML (which was EXTREMELY civil for a mailing list). I would hope it will continue to stay that way but there's been enough posts recently regarding the classifieds that seem to suggest, at least to me, that something needs "tweaking" (be it the process, the rules, the potential buyers being more informed before buying/trying to buy, etc.)

As stated earlier in this thread - there will be no changes and Stephen mentioned that some folks strictly join "just to sell gear" - and that's fine - let's remember, Stephen's not "losing" anything by allowing these folks to sell and, in fact, it would be to financial detriment were he to consider holding back or barring any 0 post member to do so; but seeing as how these folks are not contributing, I don't think I'll be chancing my hard earned (and slowly declining) bucks by trying to purchase their wares.

You rolls the dice and you takes your chances...... just follow your gut instinct and listen to your significant other and you'll usually be fine :D

Cheers,
Dave

[jamiewakeham]

...who would you deem as more trustworthy -- a four year member with 100 posts or a four month member with 400 posts?

A fair point - there are quite a few semi-lurkers with records such as mine. References are worth their weight in gold.

Cheers
Jamie

[yoyo22]

The only way of protection when doing business with strangers online is using an escrow service with a good reputation.

[Spider67]

should i trust the guy in Russia with 0 posts that has PM'd me three times about buying my M6 in the classifieds and shipping it to a different address in Minnesota?

bob

Paying via Paypal from Europe and asking the American seller to send it to an American adress.......to make things easier for him!
Best regards
Des

[johannielscom]

...

Problems can happen at either end of the sale, to experienced and non experienced members alike. There will be no time or posting requirements in order to place ads.

Stephen

When using PayPal, ask the seller to send you an invoice, containing the exact item description and serial number of the item. These data should match the data shown in the ad. If not, don't pay.

When paying, reply with the same item data in the description of the payment.

When going about like this, if anything is fishy, you'll at least have the PayPal claims' conditions covered.

In the end, there's only so much you can do. Using the above approach has proven sufficient in my case, so far.

[digitalintrigue]

If the system were ill-designed, yes. Such a system wouldn't be designed to cajole those who are otherwise uncomfortable with online buying, rather, to give some sense of security to those who are.

Again, just a thought.

[peter_n]

I think a lot of angst could be avoided if PayPal users just read their User Agreement, understood the services provided by their shipping carrier of choice (enough so that they comply with eBay's "Seller Protection" policy for example) and did their due diligence on sellers when buying.

I bought something from an RFF'er last week and he was blazing because he'd been locked out of his PayPal account. Something had gone wrong with it and PayPal wanted his SSN as partial proof of his identity. He absolutely refused to give it so he's screwed. However the default "confirmation" setting in a PayPal profile is your Social, but it can be quite easily changed to a credit card number for example. He probably never scanned his profile so he didn't know what the company would ask for to determine his identity, now he's locked out of his account and very, very mad.

When I sell I always ship by USPS and use Delivery Confirmation and an electronic return receipt (costs $1.10) where necessary. The electronic return receipt service comes via a PDF email attachment and includes an image of the buyer’s signature. USPS tracking is now fairly respectable so you can cover the basics of the so called seller protection plan on eBay if you use these services.

A bit of research combined with due diligence while not perfect can really help. The problem is that the relevant information is very poorly organized on many carrier sites, the USPS site is a nightmare for example. Finding information on eBay isn't much easier. It is easy to give up and rely on "trust" but if you stick to it you can lower the probability of losing money quite dramatically.

[CameraQuest]

Its a holiday weekend so I won't contact Paypal to get the details till next week.

However I know that Paypal buyers can hold up or reverse payments OUTSIDE of Ebay because it has happened to me.

If there is some sort of multi tiered levels of responsibility going on with Paypal between professional and private sellers, I don't know -- yet.

Stephen

[__hh]

Trust, commonsense, and some background checks go a long way. I have sold items here a number of times to RFF members who have a PayPal US address, yet they have requested that the item be shipped to a different location (country) because they are either dual citizens or they are there for work.

Alarm bells ring of course, but after a few discussions and background checks I was satisfied that the RFF members were genuine.

At the end of the day, no hard & fast rule will work for all occasions. Use the most valuable tool - our noggins....

[davelrods]

My first couple posts were to negotiate that sale. It went extremely
well and I've been here ever since.