Nokton 35 1.2 or Summicron 35 ASPH?

[mllanos1111]

I know these are very different lenses but they both have the look I'm after. The part I'm struggling with aside from the money is ergonomics.
I haven't found a Nokton I can try so I'm a little blind on this one.
Everyone says it's HUGE, but to me huge is my Nikkor 85 1.4.
Is it close to that? How does it feel on the ZI?
I'll be using it for street shooting so what matters to me first is the smoothness of the focus.
The Summicron is nice but a bit slower and of course more expensive. I can purchase a new one from my friend that works for a division of Leica for $2100 or I can buy a used one.
The Leica I would have to wait a bit longer in order to get all the funds together and the Nokton I could purchase now.
So is the Nokton too large for a walk around lens for street?
Thanks for responding to my ramblings.

[Tom A]

Yes, the 35f1.2 is big, but if you only are going to be carrying one lens/one body it is OK. The 35f2 Asph is bigger than the old 35f2 IV and quite a bit heavier. As you say, they are two different lenses, the Nokton 35f1.2 is quite remarkable for its performance - and almost 2 stops faster! There are times when f1,2 can be the difference between a "keeper" and a "shaker" at the ragged edge shutter speeds.
The Summicron 35f2.0 Asph will give you very sharp edged images, even at f2 - but then most every modern 35 can do that. The ZM Biogon 35f2.0, any of the Summicron 35's and Konicas Hexanon 35f2 will do almost as well.
If you can get a f1.2 Nokton now - I would go for it. If you find that it is too big, it has an advantage of being easy to re-sell, with little loss if you decide on the 35f2 Asph later.
I have been using my Nokton 35f1.2 on my ZI for a while. I find that the "stock" hood works better than the "vented" one. The diameter of the lens does cause it to show a bit in the finder, but with the standard hood less so.

[kipkeston]

nokton and a skopar gets my vote

[back alley]

are you concerned about size for fear of losing your stealthiness?
if so, i wouldn't worry too much. when i go out with my sony a300 digital no one seems to notice me any more than when i have the zi and tiny 35/2.8 on it. (my choice for a 35)

go for the nokton as it seems to have taken on a cult status and i figure that that many folks can't be wrong.

joe

[Nando]

I have both because I was able to get a Nokton and Summicron-ASPH for less than the Summilux-ASPH by itself. In my opinion, Nokton works well on a lighter Bessa body than on a heavier M. The ZI is lighter than an M, right? The Nokton and my Bessa-T with the metal CV 35mm finder is a match made in heaven! I normally use the Summicron most of the time and only take the Nokton when I know I will need its low-light capabilities. I've taken the Nokton out during the day many times and the size never bothered me much. I think that most dSLR's with their kit lenses are bigger than my Bessa-T and Nokton 1.2.

I could live with a Nokton by itself. It performs beautifully at every aperture. It is big for an RF lens and its nice to have a smaller 35mm or 28mm when you don't feel like carrying the Beastly Nokton. Instead of a Summicron-ASPH you might want to consider a Nokton 1.2 paired with a 35mm Skopar as suggested above or a 35mm Biogon-C.

[ferider]

Huge for the Nokton means intruding about 1/3rd into your 35mm frameline on a normal M body. For me this is not acceptable.

The Summilux/Summicron ASPH are astonishingly good lenses. Their high resolution is well documented. I have yet to see an MTF chart for the Nokton or a comparison between it and the Summilux. It's mostly Nokton owners that tell you qualitatively that performance of the two lenses is equivalent. And yes, in this league MTF charts do matter to me, in addition to bokeh, etc.

If the budget matters, by all means get the Nokton. If it doesn't get both and see for yourself. In the end it's a very personal decision.

Roland.

[Keith]

Huge for the Nokton means intruding about 1/3rd into your 35mm frameline on a normal M body. For me this is not acceptable.

The Summilux ASPH is an astonishingly good lens. Its high resolution is well documented. I have yet to see an MTF chart for the Nokton or a comparison between the two lenses. It's mostly Nokton owners that tell you qualitatively that performance of the two lenses is equivalent. And yes, in this league MTF charts do matter to me, in addition to bokeh, etc.

If the budget matters, by all means get the Nokton. If it doesn't get both and see for yourself. In the end it's a very personal decision.

Roland.


Maybe on a normal M body but not on the Ikon ... I was curious and put the Nokton on my Zeiss and was surprised to see that it it's only just visible. A tenth at the most!

On my M2 you see a lot more of it but definitely not a third and the M2 seems to be my prefered body for this lens now.

[Rafael]

On my M2 you see a lot more of it but definitely not a third and the M2 seems to be my prefered body for this lens now.

I don't think that Roland is claiming that the Nokton blocks 1/3 of the viewfinder, but rather that it extends 1/3 into the frame (i.e. if you drew a diagonal line through the viewfinder from the bottom right to the top left, the Nokton would cover 1/3 of the line.). On my M4, the edge of the Nokton almost reaches the bottom right corner of the 135 frame. I would estimate that it covers 5/8 of the bottom right quadrant of the viewfinder.

[ferider]

I don't think that Roland is claiming that the Nokton blocks 1/3 of the viewfinder, but rather that it extends 1/3 into the frame (i.e. if you drew a diagonal line through the viewfinder from the bottom right to the top left, the Nokton would cover 1/3 of the line.). On my M4, the edge of the Nokton almost reaches the bottom right corner of the 135 frame. I would estimate that it covers 5/8 of the bottom right quadrant of the viewfinder.

Exactly Marc. Thanks :)

From flickr user fieros_suck:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/77/180262623_e0678cca72.jpg

on the R2a.

Of course intrusion depends on distance of lens mount and viewfinder, which is larger on M2 (I know) and even larger on the ZI (is it ?). It does not depend on magnification though.

Best,

Roland.

[Keith]

Exactly Marc. Thanks :)

From flickr user fieros_suck:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/77/180262623_e0678cca72.jpg

on the R2a.

Of course intrusion depends on distance of lens mount and viewfinder, which is larger on M2 (I know) and even larger on the ZI (is it ?). It does not depend on magnification though.

Best,

Roland.


You've got me measuring things now. I projected the Ikon's and the Leica's 35mm frame lines onto an A4 sheet and did the measurement. Diagonally the sheet measures 36 cm ... the Nokton's protrusion on the Ikon is 7cm and 9cm for the Leica.

I remember putting the Nokton on my R3A and was amazed at how much of the viewfinder it blotted out on that!

[ferider]

Cool idea, Keith. With hood or without ?

Roland.

[Keith]

Cool idea, Keith. With hood or without ?

Roland.


Without Roland ... I seldom use the hood on the Nokton and it never seems to cause a problem with flare ... it would add onother couple of centimeters though!

Those Ikons have a damned impressive viewfinder ... and the M2 is not far behind it!

[BillBlackwell]

I know these are very different lenses but they both have the look I'm after...

This statement confuses me. You couldn't have picked two modern lenses more diverse from one another. Assuming you are just using your words loosely - very loosely - then on the whole I would agree with Tom. The Nokton is nearly two stops faster and it will render a more traditional (with less contrast) look for your street shots compared to the Asph Summicron.

Just for the heck of it, exactly what "look" were you referring to?

[mllanos1111]

Well yes I did write this up in a hurry and I did a poor job of explaining.
I've been looking at tons of pictures from both lenses and I like the way these lenses render the image as far as contrast, Bokeh and color from the color shots I've seen as well.
I mostly shoot B&W but on occasion I do shoot color.


This statement confuses me. You couldn't have picked two modern lenses more diverse from one another. Assuming you are just using your words loosely - very loosely - then on the whole I would agree with Tom. The Nokton is nearly two stops faster and it will render a more traditional (with less contrast) look for your street shots compared to the Asph Summicron.

Just for the heck of it, exactly what "look" were you referring to?

[mllanos1111]

Thanks everyone for all the comments this really does help clear things up.
Tom your always very helpful!
I'm going to try out the Nokton and go from there, if for some reason it doesnt work for me I wont lose much. I look at it as an inexpensive rental.

Thanks

[35mmdelux]

FWIW: William Eggleston shoots with the 35/1.2 Nokton (silver). I know this piece of trivia and a dime wont get me a cup-o-java.

[mllanos1111]

I'm going to pick up the Nokton and see how it handles for me. I've had some wonderful lenses but some of them just didnt feel right to me. Sometimes the focus was too stiff, I'll see how this one feels.
Thanks

[noimmunity]

I seldom use the hood on the Nokton and it never seems to cause a problem with flare ... it would add onother couple of centimeters though!

Same here, Keith.
I like the way it feels and looks (chrome) on my ZI, and without the hood there is virtually no VF blockage.
A great lens and easy to use.

[mllanos1111]

Well I finally got my Nokton 35 1.2 and so far I love it!
I dont feel it's too big since I'm use to SLR lenses it feels like a 50mm to me.
I've only shot a couple rolls with it so far but I like what I'm seeing.

[cmogi10]

I remember the Nokton having a really long focus throw, is that correct?

[Tom A]

The Nokton has a longer focus throw than most other 35's, but the large diameter makes it easy to handle. The longer throw also makes it easier to "pin point' focus - which you need at f1.2!!!
I have the 35f1.2 in M mount and also in Nikon RF mount - on the latter the throw is even longer. the Nikon has an almost 270 degrees throw from close to infinity. Of course, that lens sends shivers down the spine of Nikon collectors. Only three were made as an experimental series. OK, Mr Kobayashi wanted one, I wanted one and the Head Bartender wanted one. That was enough market research for us. It works REALLY well on the R2S with the meter too!

[mllanos1111]

It actually isnt bad, I can pretty much get everything i need very quickly.
It handles like a much smaller lens

[Johann Espiritu]

I got the Nokton in December 2007 then the Summucron a little over a year after. As everyone says, they're very different from each other, and made for different purposes.

When size and stealth doesn't matter as much, I take the Nokton. Shots as 1.2 are just something else, and the lens is damn sharp. When I don't want to stick out, I take the Summicron (my Nokton is chrome, making it even more of an attention grabber; the 'Cron is black).

Make a quick search on my flickr to see samples from both. They draw so differently from each other, it's quite amazing.

[papasnap]

I remember reading a post from Tom A (if I've remembered correct) about a magnum photog friend of his, who would spend all day with a 35mm summicron then at 6pm switch to a 35mm summilux. That made a whole lot of sense to me, so after having the f1.2 nokton for a couple of years, a few months ago I also picked up the 35mm summicron asph (felt odd to spend more than twice as much on the "backup" summicron than my "primary" nokton!)

They're both great lenses, you're a winner with either but if I could only have one it would be the f1.2 nokton - the extra speed is worth it's (not unsubstantial :) ) weight in gold once the light goes dim!

In fact, since tragically leaving my much loved M6 TTL 0.58x + 35mm summicron asph in a cab a week or so ago - and the pair subsequently disappearing from the face of the earth - I do only have the f1.2 nokton! It's back doing duty on my zeiss ikon, where it was a year ago..

I definitely miss the summicron asph - the size was great for me, I liked the square hood, and the image quality was extremely good. But the nokton can do everything it can, plus a whole lot more in dim light.

Here's a quick breakdown of what I thought of the two (by category and winner):

Image Quality (at same apertures): Tie, I'd say. Both terrific, summicron bit contrastier, nokton slightly less so (either can be an asset, depending on the shot). Nokton a bit smoother, summicron asph a bit sharper (esp. in regards to bokeh). Nokton has better flare control. But (maybe flare aside) all of these points are splitting hairs really, as far as the average viewer of photos would be concerned - myself probably included. If someone had borrowed my camera and both lenses to shoot a roll, and left it no wider than f2, I'd probably be unable to tell which lens was used for which shot - might be able to hazard a guess based on bokeh or presence of flare... if there were harsh examples of either, I'd suspect the summicron :)

Handling: Nokton. Both handle very well, it's mostly a matter of preference. Big and steady vs compact and easy to move quickly; focus ring vs focus tab; slightly slower (but more precise) buttery focus vs quick fast focus. The smoothness of the nokton is a delight, I find myself absent mindedly turning the apperture ring just because it's so damn smooth :)

Size: Summicron. Although the heft of the big nokton is actually something of an asset when it comes to holding it steady, if I could magically shrink the nokton a bit I probably would, say by 20 - 30%. The summicron is about as small as a lens can get for me without being uncomfortable for me (I find my voigt 35mm f2.5 pancake II to too small for comfort).

"People friendly-ness": Summicron. It's no more "invisible" than the nokton, but it is a bit less intimidating. I did feel a little bit more at ease being intrusive with the summicron than the nokton, but I'm sure that was mostly in my own head. I think when I do have the money again I'll probably get another compact 35mm f2 lens (biogon/summicron) - for this reason, even if I don't really think it actually enabled me to get shots I otherwise couldn't.

Aperture range/versatility: Nokton nokton nokton. It has more to give at both ends - f1.2 vs f2, f22 vs f16. It's fairly often at night I'm in a situation where I'm down to say 1/8 sec at f1.2, so any loss in speed (even to f1.4) could ruin it. At the other end, it's only rarely I need f22 but it does happen - since I basically only ever shoot 1600 speed film, if out on the harbour in middle of the day even f22 and 1/1000 can still blow out at 1600.

Price: Nokton nokton nokton. It's a total bargain. It would be a total bargain if it cost twice as much as it does, but I sincerely thank Cosina/Mr Kobyashi it doesn't! If they had stuck a leica badge on it and charged triple, I bet people would think it was an amazing deal.. and in a way they're right, as it would still cost less than a new 35mm summilux too, if I recall the price correct.

See below for wide open f1.2 nokton shot I took (on provia 400x +2 stops), just a quick scan (still haven't learnt how to fully use the 5000 ED, I've only had it a week). For me, this demonstrates the qualities I like so much about the f1.2 nokton.

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/1607/kurtmarrickville011000.jpg

[principe azul]

papasnap,

seriously cool shot... thanks for sharing

[nome_alice]

I use the 35/1.2 on a Bessa R2A and haven't found the protrusion into the framelines to be a problem when shooting.

Before I got the 35/1.2 I was using the 35/1.7 Ultron and when I first mounted the lens at home and walking through the house pointing it at stuff I was so disappointed at the amount of intrusion into the framelines, but once out shooting properly realised it didn't pose a problem to me at all.

Just get the 35/1.2 You won't be sorry!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/3117410667_b65aa702ed_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nome_alice/3117410667/)

[mllanos1111]

Well I've been loving this lens so much that is doesnt leave the camera!
I recently posted a series of night shots here in the gallery that I took the other night in Pasadena. They were all at 1.2 and the lens was amazing.