M9 conceptual sketches

[Harry Lime]

I put these together and was curious to see what people think.
The first approach is more traditional in nature.

Spec: Traditional design

- Heavy duty weather sealing to protect against dust and moisture.

- 'AE-L' lock button

- '-/+' button for adjusting exposure compensation and ASA (holding down
'set' button and -/+ adjusts asa)

- Much stiffer indents on the power/shooting mode lever

- 512 or 1024 Point RGB matrix metering, integrated in to the RF unit.

- Auto-ASA exposure mode. Camera adjusts asa so the shutter speed does not fall below a user specified speed.

- Live view

- Full Frame sensor if possible

- 16MP - 21MP. Preference for dynamic range over resolution.

- Uncompressed 16bit color

- No AA filter

- IR filter over sensor

- 5 fps max

- Optional heavy duty power pack (uses 2 x M8 style batteries for a total of 3)

[Tuolumne]

Crop factor?

/T

[Harry Lime]

This is the more modern design:

Spec Modern:

- Heavy duty weather sealing to protect against dust and moisture.

- 'AE-L' lock button

- '-/+' button for adjusting exposure compensation and ASA (holding down
'set' button and -/+ adjusts asa)

- Dial switch on rear for on/off/continuous/selftimer

-OLED readout on top plate showing shutter speed, shooting mode, frame counter, battery level etc.

- 512 or 1024 Point RGB matrix metering, integrated in to the RF unit.

- Auto-ASA exposure mode. Camera adjusts asa so the shutter speed does not fall below a user specified speed.

- Live view

- Full Frame sensor if possible

- 16MP - 21MP. Preference for dynamic range over resolution.

- Uncompressed 16bit color

- No AA filter

- IR filter over sensor

- 5 fps max

- Optional heavy duty power pack (uses 2 x M8 style batteries for a total of 3)

[Harry Lime]

Crop factor?

/T

Hopefully full frame...

If that's still not possible, were back to APS-H (x1.33)

[marke]

Cool, Harry. How about a thumb rest?

[Harry Lime]

Cool, Harry. How about a thumb rest?

That's a tough one.

Obviously we no longer have an advance lever and it's not coming back.
Thumbs up! may block the AE-L and EV compensation buttons.

I though about a thumb rest that pivoted out of the top plate, but I'm not sure how crowded it is in there...

Hopefully the edges of the AE-L or EV buttons will provide some grip.

It's a tough one. It would be simple to add a small thumb and palm rest to the back of the camera, but everyone would probably freak out, because it would change the shape of the body...

[Faintandfuzzy]

Interesting. I think the battery level indicator is kind of a waste, but maybe people will like it. I would like to see just a bit more of an indent and extension....kind of like a small grip to make it a bit more stable in hand.

A 16 mp sensor is all that is needed for a camera designed to be handheld. Any more than that is wasted unless you're using a tripod all the time. For me, huge dynamic range as highlight latitude is more important to gid rid of that digital look. A 16 bit A/D convertor and 12+ stops would be nice. Improved metering to better work with the increased DR and latitude would be welcome.

Oh heck....just give me Tri-X and an M7 and I'll be happy.

[35mmdelux]

Must be FF and sub $5000.

[Harry Lime]

Interesting. I think the battery level indicator is kind of a waste, but maybe people will like it.
On the battery pack? That's so you can check the level, without it being attached to the camera.


I would like to see just a bit more of an indent and extension....kind of like a small grip to make it a bit more stable in hand.

Well, I didn't want to get lynched for changing the body shape. I guess you could add a grip, like Tom A is working on.

A 16 mp sensor is all that is needed for a camera designed to be handheld. Any more than that is wasted unless you're using a tripod all the time.


I wanted a little more resolution for cropping.

For me, huge dynamic range as highlight latitude is more important to gid rid of that digital look. A 16 bit A/D convertor and 12+ stops would be nice. Improved metering to better work with the increased DR and latitude would be welcome.

Oh heck....just give me Tri-X and an M7 and I'll be happy.

I hear ya brother. 12 stops and 16it (or more).
Still shooting Tri-X...
;-)

[sonofdanang]

Interesting. I think the battery level indicator is kind of a waste, .....



Well, firm/software battery life predictors are excellent. I work in the extreme cold quite often and the only way to avoid all kinds of problems is to know when to switch (nods to those who remember the Tareyton ads) batteries.

Full-frame will have to be the spec. And spend, spend, spend on that A-D converter....

[Bill Pierce]

[quote=Harry Lime;977380]I put these together and was curious to see what people think.

Harry -

I'm deeply flattered that you chose to put the M9 thread on this subsite, subdivision or whatever you call it on the rf forum. I really think there have been some amazing and intelligent threads as of late.

I'm also grateful because I have been working like mad and haven't had an intelligent thought in a week.

Bill

[dfoo]

I would rather a jog wheel for exposure compensation, and a similar wheel on the opposite side of the camera for ISO.

[ali_baba]

my issues are as follows.

i find that i use my shutter finger to move the ss dial when metering.

i find that i use my thumb (and a thumbs up) to hold the camera (i use an m8 handgrip as well).

I don't think putting those controls where the thumb rests is a good idea at all.

if you give back the advance lever that's one thing, as it can be used to hold the camera. yet as is this just wouldn't work for me at all.

i think the wheel should be out front and the thumb space should be a grip or advance lever for a true discreet mode.

[Harry Lime]

Hey Bill

I tried to design it as a 'shooters camera'. Something that would be a viable tool for a modern day PJ, documentary or street shooter. In light of that where else to go but here for good feedback?
;-)

I have no illusions that Leica will see this and adopt any of these ideas. I'm not even sure how closely they listen to the gang at Magnum or other pros who are shooting M8 these days. It certainly doesn't seem so, judging from their recent actions.... But then again I consider the M8 a stop gap design that Leica had to rush out the door in order to stay in business... Hopefully the S2 points to the future and the M9 will be a very different beast (although I do have some beef about the S2 ergonomics...).

Feli

[Avotius]

What is the purpose of taking out TTL metering and putting it in the RF mechanism? It would make the RF even more complicated then it already is and non TTL metering systems are easily fooled by light coming from sources above the camera, ie. my old mamiya 6 would always get confused by sun shining on the meter that was not shining on the scene, ie in shadow areas.

Dont take out TTL metering, its just a step backwards. Also get rid of the white balance sensor thing, we dont want that ;)

[Harry Lime]

my issues are as follows.

i find that i use my shutter finger to move the ss dial when metering.

i find that i use my thumb (and a thumbs up) to hold the camera (i use an m8 handgrip as well).

I don't think putting those controls where the thumb rests is a good idea at all. if you give back the advance lever that's one thing, as it can be used to hold the camera. yet as is this just wouldn't work for me at all.

i think the wheel should be out front and the thumb space should be a grip or advance lever for a true discreet mode.

Well, I highly doubt that the advance lever is ever going to come back, so we may as well forget about that.

I don't think the buttons on the rear of the top plate will be a problem.

For one thing we hold the camera with two hand, cradling it from below to operate the lens. Your thumb can probably rest just ot the left of the AE-L button or between it and the EV buttons.

The AE-L and EV buttons are supposed to be right under your thumb, so you can operate them without taking your eye from the viewfinder. The problem with putting EV compensation on a dial is that you then need to look at the EV compensation readout in the viewfinder, which forces you to take your eye off the action. If instead EV comp. is operated by a button, you simply count the amount of clicks you are making and know exactly how much you have changed exposure. One click equals a change of -/+ 0.5 EV. Two click would mean -/+1 stop. A dial doesn't allow that sort of blind control. That's one thing I hate about my D700 and the lever on the R8/R9.

[Harry Lime]

What is the purpose of taking out TTL metering and putting it in the RF mechanism? It would make the RF even more complicated then it already is and non TTL metering systems are easily fooled by light coming from sources above the camera, ie. my old mamiya 6 would always get confused by sun shining on the meter that was not shining on the scene, ie in shadow areas.

Dont take out TTL metering, its just a step backwards. Also get rid of the white balance sensor thing, we dont want that ;)

Never intended to take out TTL metering for flash. It would probably be a dual metering system. TTL for the flash would probably remain inside the mount, as it currently is.

Unless you place the matrix meter sensor on a lollypop (in front of the shutter) like in the CL and M5, there is not other place to put it but in the rangefinder. The M does not have a mirror like an SLR, that the sensor can meter off of or though. The only mirror it has is in the RF unit.

In practice the whole metering system would be transparent to the user, just like it is now. The only difference that you would notice is that your exposures would be almost always dead on, even in tricky lighting situations.

[digitalintrigue]

Add a molded grip on the front and have a thumb-rest on the back, leaves room for the buttons. :)

[antiquark]

First of all, IANALU (I am not a Leica user!) :)

Maybe this would be a good thread to ask: what is the "essence" of a Leica? The Leica M9 should try to capture the essence of the Leica M series.

Here are, in point form, some of the things that make a Leica a Leica (IMHO):

- Superior lens quality.

- Compact form.

- Fixed focal length lenses, no zooms. (I guess the tri-elmar is sort of an anomaly there.)

- Rangefinder focusing mechanism, framelines.

- Manual control of exposure, maybe aperture priority.

- Manual control of ISO.

- Ability to shoot without continually checking the LCD (a.k.a., "chimping")

- Low light shooting capability.

- Sensor with film-like capabilities.

- Quiet shutter.


With those in mind, here is my interpretation of the specs for the M9 (or maybe more like the M7D):

- Typical rangefinder mechanism.

- Aperture priority like M7.

- No LCD.

- Possibly Fuji SuperCCD sensor for a film-like 12 stops of dynamic range.

- Images saved in RAW only, no JPGS, to preserve inherent quality.

- APS-C sensor, but up to 6400 ISO. That will permit smaller f/2.8 lenses to replace f/1.4 lenses, but with same image quality.

- Cloth shutter for quiet operation.


Note that this isn't meant to be taken seriously, I just think armchair engineering is sort of fun.

[amateriat]

Given that the closest existing film-based analog to the M8 is Konica's Hexar RF (which had a stillborn digital prototype), I think the M9's controls could be similarly streamlined without diluting the camera's "Leicaness."

- The Hex has exactly one (tiny-but-legible) LCD, on the top panel. This provides both frame-count and always-on battery-condition readout, so there's never a question of how much juice is on hand. (I like the idea of a charge indicator on the M9's battery packs; we had them on both AA and NiCad packs for the Nikon F2 and Minolta XK motor bodies, and most any laptop computer battery has 'em as well.)

- Getting a Grip: The Hex uses neoprene for the touchy-feely parts of the body, which, quite coincidently, can be (and, in the case of the HRF, were) shaped for better handholding. Just as effective as sculpting the metalwork thusly, and obviously cheaper. (Hell, you could even offer an "a la carte" custom molding option for the covering, which could be changed if and when the camera was sold to someone else.)

- Titanium covers. No excuses.

- Any color you like, as long as it's black epoxy. Warm to the touch, unobtrusive, and tougher than lacquer or enamel. The mark of a camera that's meant to be used, not merely ogled.

A few other non-Hex-centric things came to mind just now:

- Bluetooth. Given the relative difficulty of removing the SD card from the M8, it would be nice to tether the M9 "live" to either a laptop or external storage device when one is in the middle of a serious shooting jag that makes confetti out of even 16GB cards.

- A dust-cleaning regimen that doesn't induce psychosis (i.e. does not involve Service Dept. intervention).

That's all. But, Harry, you're really on the right track here, IMO


- Barrett

[MikeL]

Given that the closest existing film-based analog to the M8 is Konica's Hexar RF....

- Barrett

I didn't know Konica made a rangefinder. Is it as durable as a Leica?

(;))

[DougFord]

The next camera Leica should design is a small, light weight interchangeable lens camera for PJ/documentary work.
Digital FF, 20mp +
Auto focus lenses with manual focus capability
LCD, live view with vari-angle capability, fold-able and locked against the body if unused.
EVF
new lens mount design
Body shape somewhat like the sigma DP1 with a molded grip. The size of the camera should be kept as small as possible, hopefully not too much bigger than the DP1.
Sub frame made of light weight alloy with some sort of polymer body, perhaps a form of zytel. The entire camera would be unfinished, weather proof, flat black textured polymer.
With the lens and battery removed the camera would be unbelievably light in weight and mass. Sans battery and lens with body cap installed, when thrown as far and high as humanly possible and allowed to land on the hard ground would still be fully intact, ready to load with both battery and lens.
To start with, three new special built auto focus prime lenses, 28mm, 35mm and 65mm.

[sonofdanang]

One thing I would like is, in conjunction with an LCD with live view (on a pivot, of course), and with the colour accuracy of the later Nikon dSLRs, would be a white balance tied to a control wheel. I can tune most of my dSLR bodies WB but it, in most cases, takes tweaking up and down, then escaping to check, then tweaking. It'd be nice to see the change immediately....

Cheers all,

S

[amateriat]

One thing I would like is, in conjunction with an LCD with live view (on a pivot, of course), and with the colour accuracy of the later Nikon dSLRs, would be a white balance tied to a control wheel. I can tune most of my dSLR bodies WB but it, in most cases, takes tweaking up and down, then escaping to check, then tweaking. It'd be nice to see the change immediately....

S
Damn...I knew I was forgetting something. That drives me a bit nuts when shooting digital as well. Thanks for this!

I didn't know Konica made a rangefinder. Is it as durable as a Leica?

(;))
Mike, Mike, Mike...I can't take you anywhere, can I? ;)


- Barrett

[dfoo]

If instead EV comp. is operated by a button, you simply count the amount of clicks you are making and know exactly how much you have changed exposure. One click equals a change of -/+ 0.5 EV. Two click would mean -/+1 stop. A dial doesn't allow that sort of blind control. That's one thing I hate about my D700 and the lever on the R8/R9.

I don't know about the D700, but the 5d jog wheel is "clicky". Therefore with a wheel it would be the same thing... count the clicks. The advantage of a wheel over buttons is clear. Harder to accidently push, one control instead of two, easier to operate blind.

[Harry Lime]

I don't know about the D700, but the 5d jog wheel is "clicky". Therefore with a wheel it would be the same thing... count the clicks. The advantage of a wheel over buttons is clear. Harder to accidently push, one control instead of two, easier to operate blind.

I was a Canon shooter for several years (1-V) and had a 5D, before I sold it and went Nikon (D700), because I really disliked the EOS ergonomics.

One particular problem was that the dials would move quite easily, if brushed up against. The large dial on the back of my 1-v/EOS controlled shutter speed or AF points and every time you let the camera rest against your body, it would move change your settings. You could lock it, but that was a PIA in practice.

You're right that you can count the clicks on a dial wheel, but it's much harder to do, especially when you are moving or in the of the middle action. Just imagine yourself trying to delicately spin that dial one click, 2mm, while you are being pushed by a crowd at a demonstration and trying to keep track of the action. I've done it and it stinks. Pressing a button is faster and more intuitive.

It is surprisingly difficult to accidentally press one of the these button. I know that from shooting with both EOS bodies and the D700. Both the AE-L and EV buttons would have a rim that surrounds them, making it difficult to activate them, unless you deliberately intend to. The current buttons on the M8 need this rim, because they are very easily depressed by your palm when the camera is gripped.

[victoriapio]

I like ALMOST every suggestion, but would vote against the additional space required by "super battery" array. Keep the body small, small.

Great ideas and a very interesting thread.

O.C.

[Harry Lime]

Auto focus lenses with manual focus capability

If it's autofocus, it's no longer a rangefinder but a Contax G2/G2...
Do you mean AF in addition to the optomechanical rangefinder?

Body shape somewhat like the sigma DP1 with a molded grip. The size of the camera should be kept as small as possible, hopefully not too much bigger than the DP1.

I don't think you can fit a full frame or APS-H size chip in a camera that small. The DP1 is almost too small, to hold with some authority. At some point the size becomes 'fiddly'. It has to have a certain amount of heft.

[Harry Lime]

I like ALMOST every suggestion, but would vote against the additional space required by "super battery" array. Keep the body small, small.

Great ideas and a very interesting thread.

O.C.

Thanks.

The external battery pack would be optional for heavy duty or prolonged use. Wedding shooters and journalists would probably want it. It should be no bigger than a Leicavit or Rapidwinder.

Without the optional battery pack the camera would be the same size as an M8.

[Harry Lime]

Add a molded grip on the front and have a thumb-rest on the back, leaves room for the buttons. :)

How about a palm rest like the R6.2 uses? I have an R6.2 and the palm grip makes it very comfortable to hold. That way nothing would interfere with the AE-L and EV buttons.

[victoriapio]

Being a photographer, it would help if I read the first post as the "optional" battery array is plainly stated. :D

Thanks.

The external battery pack would be optional for heavy duty or prolonged use. Wedding shooters and journalists would probably want it. It should be no bigger than a Leicavit or Rapidwinder.

Without the optional battery pack the camera would be the same size as an M8.

[nbphoto]

LCD's drain the battery, as does cocking the shutter etc. I would like to see a digital M9 with an advance lever for cocking the shutter, no display, simple spot metering etc. Have an iso selector similar to the m6, and nikon like ae lock just under the advance lever. Should display shutter speed and f number in the viewfinder. Shots left, and battery condition could be displayed in the view finder for minimal additional buttons. it should be full frame, 12+ mp, cloth shutter, only shoot in raw, and take compact flash.

[aizan]

i love it when people photoshop cameras. :)

- instead of the removable base plate, use normal hinged doors for the battery and memory compartments.

- get rid of the usb socket and blue dot (the brightness sensor)

- built-in image stabilization

[philipp.leser]

- Bluetooth. Given the relative difficulty of removing the SD card from the M8, it would be nice to tether the M9 "live" to either a laptop or external storage device when one is in the middle of a serious shooting jag that makes confetti out of even 16GB cards.


Bluetooth is very slow (at the most 2 MBit/s, i.e. 256 KByte/s). It would take 20 seconds to transfer a single 5 MByte RAW file.

Wifi would work, but the drain on the battery would be substantial.

Regards,
Philipp

[tom.w.bn]

This is a really fruitful discussion except the posting of such running gags like "no lcd".
No one will ever produce such a camera for max. 50 customers who don't want an lcd.

I like the layout of the buttons for ae-lock and compensation.

Someone called for an APS-C size sensor. Why making the sensor smaller as todays size of the M8?

I don't want a cloth shutter. I want a fast shutter - at least 1/4000

[Gabriel M.A.]

I put these together and was curious to see what people think.
The first approach is more traditional in nature.

Silly, silly silly...don't you know that Nikon has already made the greatest digital rangefinder the world has ever known?

Why waste your time on concrete, tangible ideas, when we already have the bestest theoretical Uberkamera of all time? :o

[digitalintrigue]

Articulating LCD, flip it closed if you don't want to use it :)

[antiquark]

Bluetooth, image stabilization, matrix metering, autofocus, X-frames per second, LCD live-view, flip-out LCD, 1/4000 shutter...

That type of "everything including the kitchen sink" design simply isn't part of the Leica tradition. But then again, maybe Leica has to forget their history if they want to survive these days.

[tom.w.bn]

Bluetooth, image stabilization, matrix metering, autofocus, X-frames per second, LCD live-view, flip-out LCD, 1/4000 shutter...

That type of "everything including the kitchen sink" design simply isn't part of the Leica tradition. But then again, maybe Leica has to forget their history if they want to survive these days.

That's it. Today you can't run an enterprise only with traditional products / concepts / technologies.

[Harry Lime]

That's it. Today you can't run an enterprise only with traditional products / concepts / technologies.

True, but products that try to be all things to all people, instead of doing a limited set if things better than anyone else, tend to fail in the marketplace.

It is a silly idea to try to turn a rangefinder in to a pseudo SLR. That's like trying to use a fork to eat soup and a spork is stupid, unless you have nothing else.

There is a place for a digital rangefinder in the market, but Leica has to build a product that is mature in terms of design and performance. If they then market and price it properly, it will sell.

[tom.w.bn]

True, but products that try to be all things to all people, instead of doing a limited set if things better than anyone else, tend to fail in the marketplace.

It is a silly idea to try to turn a rangefinder in to a pseudo SLR. That's like trying to use a fork to eat soup and a spork is stupid, unless you have nothing else.

There is a place for a digital rangefinder in the market, but Leica has to build a product that is mature in terms of design and performance. If they then market and price it properly, it will sell.

You are right. That's why I like your first specification. Not too many gimmicks inside.

[Harry Lime]

You are right. That's why I like your first specification. Not too many gimmicks inside.

Yeah, the more I look at the two, the more I like the traditional model.

The M8x already does most things I want, with the exception of a few small, but serious design flaws that are easy to correct. And to be honest none of the additions, like the two buttons, are radical departure from where we already are. Weather sealing and a more advanced metering system are invisible to the user, except that your camera won't short out in the rain and your exposures are more accurate. Making the indents on the power switch stiffer is something Leica should have done years ago.

[digitalintrigue]

I haven't really seen any gimmicks in this spec. Bluetooth as mentioned is too slow for file transfer, but it could be usable for controlling the camera remotely. That might be gimmicky for some, but not for others. Who is the gimmick arbiter? :)

1/4000 shouldn't be a problem, the M8.2 has that. The M8 had 1/8000, even nicer for using wide apertures in bright situations.

Image stabilization: this is cool, enables another couple of stops for low light. Especially cool if the sensor is not all that great at ISO 6400.

Matrix metering, autofocus, X-frames per second, LCD live-view, flip-out LCD:

These are standard features of the competition. LCD live-view would mean that every M9 would have a built-in modern Visoflex. Hardly gimmicky. :)

RD-1 has flip-out LCD, that's been out 5 years, not really leading edge technology there.

Let me know when I can place an order. :)

[antiquark]

Let me know when I can place an order. :)

You already can:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmcg1/
:)

[digitalintrigue]

Oh, well I already have one of those. :) This concept is somewhat of a merger of the best features of G1 and the D700 into an RF.

[tom.w.bn]

You already can:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmcg1/
:)

Gave it back. I just didn't find the menu option for switching from crop factor 2 to 1.33 or 1.0 ;)

[Bill Pierce]

A long time ago, Leitz had the Leica School. It presented lecturers like Walter Huen to interested groups, often the journalism departments of universities. For 2 days Walter would talk about not only about Leitz, but about photographic technique in general. When talking to students, he even mentioned Canon lenses as economical alternatives until they could afford Leica lenses (and I’m sure the powers to be at Leitz were choking back cries of “Do you have to do that?”)

There was a constant flow of journalists through the Leitz headquarters in Rockleigh and Wetzlar. You could literally find yourself having a beer with the president of Leitz USA or the parent company in Germany.

No question Leitz was interested in the needs of journalists and that their cameras were exceptionally popular tools with that group. But I don’t think this was an act of selfless devotion to our trade on the part of Leitz.

I think they recognized that the needs of the journalist paralleled the needs of their most important customer, the advanced amateur. He needed a small, portable camera that could take on a variety of situations minimizing the use of flash or tripods, a viewfinder that let you see easily and even anticipate (everything sharp, including what was about to come into frame) in a variety of situations and was capable of delivering a very high quality image.

I don’t know when Leitz decided that the advanced amateur really wanted a camera with custom colored leather in limited editions named after celebrities (and probably easily affordable only to other celebrities), but I regret it.

I think Harry’s proposals are brilliant - and, in terms of Leitz’s marketing philosophy, delightfully old fashioned. It will be interesting to see whether modest innovations something like Harry’s or a red leather, Paris Hilton limited edition M8 will appear first.

[tmfabian]

you know, on the other forum i mentioned not liking the idea of where the "new" shutter dial was located, however the more i look at this new design, the more I'm digging it...and the battery pack is something that should have been introduced as an accessory a long time ago and if this comes to fruition, i'm slappin down the cash on a pre-order right away. I particularly like the idea of the OLED...it's such neat technology.

part of me wants to see a cloth shutter again with an advance lever, but if they can get rid of the whirr at the end of the shutter recock, the metal blade shutter is actually pretty quiet and introduces a level of durability since i roll without lens caps (although I will say that last night, after a few drinks I was cleaning some dirt off the cover of my m7 and had the lens off and accidentally shoved my sausage finger right into the shutter...luckily the pressure plate didn't allow me to push a hole in it, but a metal blade shutter would surely be off for repair right now haha.)

[victoriapio]

Ditto losing the removeable bottom plate. Please a weather tight door on the permanent bottom plate is fine that would hide the card and the battery pack.

[Harry Lime]

I think they recognized that the needs of the journalist paralleled the needs of their most important customer, the advanced amateur.

I don’t know when Leitz decided that the advanced amateur really wanted a camera with custom colored leather in limited editions named after celebrities (and probably easily affordable only to other celebrities), but I regret it.

Leica needs to get back to listening to working professionals and professionals who understand how to shoot with a rangefinder. In most businesses technology trickles down from the top. That's another reason why they need a tiered product line, with bodies priced low, mid and high.



I think Harry’s proposals are brilliant - and, in terms of Leitz’s marketing philosophy, delightfully old fashioned. It will be interesting to see whether modest innovations something like Harry’s or a red leather, Paris Hilton limited edition M8 will appear first.

Thanks Bill, very kind of you. As for the Paris Hilton edition, it looks like a Panda and Safari model beat it to the puch, but how far behind can it be? These special editions are a good sign that they need to spice up the M8, because it is reaching it's exparation date in the market place, from a technological standpoint. Time for a replacement in one year or less and it better be good (and priced correctly).

[Dante_Stella]

How about adopting the Hexar's top-mounted EV comp dial? And the front-edge mounted shutter speed wheel that can be turned with the right index finger without displacing one's grip?

Given that the closest existing film-based analog to the M8 is Konica's Hexar RF (which had a stillborn digital prototype), I think the M9's controls could be similarly streamlined without diluting the camera's "Leicaness."

- The Hex has exactly one (tiny-but-legible) LCD, on the top panel. This provides both frame-count and always-on battery-condition readout, so there's never a question of how much juice is on hand. (I like the idea of a charge indicator on the M9's battery packs; we had them on both AA and NiCad packs for the Nikon F2 and Minolta XK motor bodies, and most any laptop computer battery has 'em as well.)

- Getting a Grip: The Hex uses neoprene for the touchy-feely parts of the body, which, quite coincidently, can be (and, in the case of the HRF, were) shaped for better handholding. Just as effective as sculpting the metalwork thusly, and obviously cheaper. (Hell, you could even offer an "a la carte" custom molding option for the covering, which could be changed if and when the camera was sold to someone else.)

- Titanium covers. No excuses.

- Any color you like, as long as it's black epoxy. Warm to the touch, unobtrusive, and tougher than lacquer or enamel. The mark of a camera that's meant to be used, not merely ogled.

A few other non-Hex-centric things came to mind just now:

- Bluetooth. Given the relative difficulty of removing the SD card from the M8, it would be nice to tether the M9 "live" to either a laptop or external storage device when one is in the middle of a serious shooting jag that makes confetti out of even 16GB cards.

- A dust-cleaning regimen that doesn't induce psychosis (i.e. does not involve Service Dept. intervention).

That's all. But, Harry, you're really on the right track here, IMO


- Barrett

[Matt(1pt4)]

Yes to both. The way the Hexar's shutter speed dial hangs slightly over the edge is far better than the Leica design.

While we are contributing DNA from other camera families, what about using the OM's around the lens-mount shutter speed dial as white balance dial? No need to dig into menus for anything then.

[Harry Lime]

How about adopting the Hexar's top-mounted EV comp dial? And the front-edge mounted shutter speed wheel that can be turned with the right index finger without displacing one's grip?

Interesting solution, but I think two dials would make the top of the M8 cluttered. It also places the shutter speed dial in an odd place, so it no longer falls under your index finger.

[samoksner]

I don't think it needs any menus at all.

Have a nob for shutter speeds, a nob for ISO and MAYBE a selector for preset WB, no auto WB to keep internal computer stuff to a minimum. A selector switch for RAW, JPG, RAW + JPG and that's it. So what, we've added 2 nob /lever/selectors compared to an M6?

I don't need an LCD to see what I shot, i don't see what i shoot on film! It's a leica, with no mirror blackout, their is no reason to not know what you got when you got released the shutter. And to be honest, I don't see what I need an LCD for on my Canon 5D except to look at images (and I only do that because it's irrisistable to not look at what I just shot, but when my LCD was broken and I had no image review, I was almost glad)

If the sensor could be 1.3 or better crop that would be awesome, i can deal with 1.3x. As for frames, i would love to be able to select frames ONE at a TIME. The lever can individually select 28,35,50,75,90,135 (or the equivalent considering the magnification). I hate having my 35 frame crowded by some junk in the middle, but then again, I'm quite used to my M6 so this is very minor. How about a little red light that comes on in the very far corner of the rangefinder when i only have space for 25 pictures left on the card?

I don't need AE, don't need a top LCD, or a back LCD, just the usual M7 meter readout in the rangefinder as long as shutter speeds are displayed.

I would love to have a shutter crank, so that it doesn't make that sound the M8 makes right after taking a picture. Winding the crank could be like turning the camera ON so that we don't encounter the issues that the M8 switch had (swithcing from S to C and worse to self timer). A good old style self timer, the wind back on a spring type, works for me. A crank would also alow for better grip like we are used to on film M and act as an ON OFF switch, pull it out for ON, keep it in for OFF.

I don't however, care much for the bottom plate design of the M8, I understand the legacy behind it, and it's fine on my M6, but for digital, it's overkill, however, if it means Leica will save money by producing less parts by keeping the bottom plates generic, that's fine.

You don't need to make it out of brass, make it out of the polycarbonate stuff the use for Canon / Nikon digital cameras since no one is going to keep one of these for as long as they keep an M3 or any film M. If it's simple and made with a cheaper exterior, Leica will sell more and will be able to afford to make newer models more often. They could even sell the brass top and bottom plates for an extra $750 if they want to those who feel like they need it. How much can some brass plates cost? Cheaper materials since digital is not timeless.

I don't need 15fps, in fact i'd rather the camera save some electronics and not bother with multiple fps in the first place. After all, it's a leica, not a canon. As far as I'm concerned, I don't need burst at all.

I don't need shooting modes modes, or anymore flash control then i have on an M6 TTL.

The frame counter can stay :)

I really don't see the use of a rear LCD unless i totally forgot something, i would rather not have it use up batteries, cost more to manufacter and make the whole thing bulky.


If it's priced at $2500 and not made quite as well as an M3 , so what? As long as it's built as well as quality DSLRs are today, I would buy 1 the day it's announced. I would sell all i can the day i get it in my hands and buy a second one the day after that.
I think most people feel this way, keep it simple and consider it's purpose, it's a digital, not a timeless M3. It's a camera for everyday people that appreciate Leica glass, not for collectors, collectors won't keep a company alive, photographers will. If everyone who bought a M9 if it came out tomorrow, also bought an M10 in 4 years and an M11 4 years after that, Leica would be doing just fine.

[Dante_Stella]

Harry, put briefly, your traditional design doesn’t really address what I perceive to be the range of operational deficiencies of the M8 (or more accurately, what has driven me up the wall for the past two years). My list would be significantly different. It also could be done (presumably) without any massive re-engineering of the camera.(a) Kill the metering and flash-ready “lag.”

(b) Speed up the shutter recycling, even if it makes the camera louder. If you need to make it quiet, do it like Konica did with the Hexar AF and have a mode where you can slow down the motors.

(c) Admit defeat with Metz’s kludgy and slow (pop-pop) M-TTL and license Nikon’s D-TTL flash system (not i-TTL or CLS, which would actually cost money to license). While they’re at it, add an SC-18 style plug to the side of the camera. When you need to use an external finder to see a 28mm field of view (on a 21m lens), it’s obnoxious that you can’t connect a flash. I love the fact that the $950 Universal Wideangle Finder M doesn't have a pass-through for a flash signal.

(d) Add an audible (or vibratory) clipping indicator to eliminate the need to check histograms all the time.

(e) Eliminate the self-timer setting from the top deck. This isn't a super telephoto camera, it isn't a macro camera, and people who take self-timer pictures of themselves can learn to live with using a menu so the rest of us don't miss the moment.

(f) Add an exposure compensation dial to the outside of the camera and move the shutter speed dial to the front right corner. Using buttons for compensation doesn’t tell you anything about the setting unless the screen is turned on.

(g) Put a center button on the jog wheel for doing a 100% blowup immediately to check critical focus.

(h) Add more steps to the LCD contrast settings.

(i) Uncompress the RAW files (we have SDHD now) and allocate more data to highlights for better recoverability. Adopt Kodak’s Digital Exposure Correction for in-camera JPGs.

(j) Dustproof it.

(k) Have manual lens selection and auto-calibration.

(l) Ditch the absurd bottom-plate loading.

(m) Click white balance (eyedropper).
Some things on your list for the traditional spec, like a full-frame sensor and Matrix meter are beyond Leica’s R&D capabilities. Making it 16-21Mp would exceed the focusing accuracy of the RF system and lenses as collimated. If one thing were changed about the sensor, it should be increasing the dynamic range. Other things you suggest (auto ISO, no AA filter, AE lock) are features of the existing M8 (maybe it is an explicit statement that you would keep them)?

The modern spec camera? Well, nothing should make this camera any heavier, any bigger, any uglier or any more like a DSLR in controls – because at that point, a D700 (especially with the AA filter removed) is going to be better in most ways. If you really want to go modern, add these to the list above:(a) Go to an ERF that can actually compensate for the focus shift of fast lenses. The ERF could also drive ultrasonic AF lenses. The prism RF is out of its depth in focusing the 75mm Summilux (among others) due to these forward-backward shifts.

(b) Ditch the loud and bulky mechanical shutter – go to one like on the D1x.

(c) Use RFID chips in the lenses instead of 6-bit coding. If I were Leica, I would use this to eliminate 6-bit “hacking.” Better yet, have the lens transmit the set aperture into the camera for recording.

(d) Use plastic covers. The brass covers on the M8 comprise 25% of its weight.
I’m not holding my breath.

Dante

[Harry Lime]

I don't think it needs any menus at all.

Sorry, but almost nobody is going to buy a digital camera without an LCD display.It's just not going to happen and it's really not all that practical.

[Harry Lime]

Harry, put briefly, your traditional design doesn’t really address what I perceive to be the range of operational deficiencies of the M8 (or more accurately, what has driven me up the wall for the past two years). My list would be significantly different. It also could be done (presumably) without any massive re-engineering of the camera.

It was an evolutionary approach. I have ideas for a whole new camera, but people were already firing up the torches and getting out the pitchforks, because I added two buttons to the camera.

Kill the metering and flash-ready “lag.”

Sure, why not.


Speed up the shutter recycling, even if it makes the camera louder. If you need to make it quiet, do it like Konica did with the Hexar AF and have a mode where you can slow down the motors.

Sure, that would be nice, but only if they can keep the camera silent. I think most M shooters take single or a few measured shots at a time and silence is very important to them. It sure is to me. 5fps would be nice for certain type of work, when noise is not an issue, so multiple shooting modes would probably be the solution.

Admit defeat with Metz’s kludgy and slow (pop-pop) M-TTL and license Nikon’s D-TTL flash system (not i-TTL or CLS, which would actually cost money to license). While they’re at it, add an SC-18 style plug to the side of the camera. When you need to use an external finder to see a 28mm field of view (on a 21m lens), it’s obnoxious that you can’t connect a flash. I love the fact that the $950 Universal Wideangle Finder M doesn't have a pass-through for a flash signal.

Sure.

Add an audible (or vibratory) clipping indicator to eliminate the need to check histograms all the time.

Good idea. Another one would be an exposure mode that doesn't clip the highlights in the first place.

Eliminate the self-timer setting from the top deck. This isn't a super telephoto camera, it isn't a macro camera, and people who take self-timer pictures of themselves can learn to live with using a menu so the rest of us don't miss the moment.

I'm neither here nor there on this one. I think a bigger probem is the half-assed selecter switch, that will move if you look at it cockeyed.

Add an exposure compensation dial to the outside of the camera and move the shutter speed dial to the front right corner. Using buttons for compensation doesn’t tell you anything about the setting unless the screen is turned on.

Dials are no good for fast shooting. You have to slow down and concentrate on counting clicks or watch the readout change in the viewfinder / display. When you press a button you know exactly how much you have adjusted the EV compensation by (it should also show up in the viewfinder). Every push equals -/+ a fixed amount. Buttons are also easier to manipulate, without having to devote a lot of attention to them.

Put a center button on the jog wheel for doing a 100% blowup immediately to check critical focus.

sure.

Add more steps to the LCD contrast settings.

Check

Uncompress the RAW files (we have SDHD now) and allocate more data to highlights for better recoverability. Adopt Kodak’s Digital Exposure Correction for in-camera JPGs.

Agreed. There is no reason why Leica shouldn't allow you to write an uncompressed file if you wanted to.

Dustproof it.

Yes. Professional level protection against dust and moisture. A $6,500 dollar digital camera without this is a bad joke.

Have manual lens selection and auto-calibration.

Yes, if possible.

Ditch the absurd bottom-plate loading.

I like the baseplate.

Click white balance (eyedropper).
Good idea.


Some things on your list for the traditional spec, like a full-frame sensor and Matrix meter are beyond Leica’s R&D capabilities.

Leica isn't developing their own chip, so it's not a problem of their internal R&D department. If someone in the market comes up with the technology to make this possible, Leica would order one.

There is no reason why Leica couldn't develop a good matrix metering system. It's not rocket science.

Making it 16-21Mp would exceed the focusing accuracy of the RF system and lenses as collimated.

You could say the same about most AF systems. Focusing accuracy would not be an issue, unless you were shooting wide open, but stopped down you should be ok. You certainly would see the benefits of 21MP when shooting at something like f8.

If one thing were changed about the sensor, it should be increasing the dynamic range.

Agreed. DR ueber alles. I want a sensor that delivers a solid 12 stops of real range @ 32bit color. Probably not possible for several reason, but that's a different story.

Other things you suggest (auto ISO, no AA filter, AE lock) are features of the existing M8 (maybe it is an explicit statement that you would keep them)?

Keep them.

The modern spec camera? Well, nothing should make this camera any heavier, any bigger, any uglier or any more like a DSLR in controls – because at that point, a D700 (especially with the AA filter removed) is going to be better in most ways. If you really want to go modern, add these to the list above:[INDENT](a)


Go to an ERF that can actually compensate for the focus shift of fast lenses. The ERF could also drive ultrasonic AF lenses. The prism RF is out of its depth in focusing the 75mm Summilux (among others) due to these forward-backward shifts.

Sure, but at that point you longer have a Leica M, but a Contax G2 or Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1.

My suggestion would be to increase the length of the optomechanical RF and learn to live with a little slack in the system.

Being a rangefinder the M series has always been about compromises. It's never been very good at using long lenses and very wides need brightline finders. The results from the camera have always been something of a compromise in terms of focus and framing accuracy. Using an RF camera is not an exact science. If you examine prints from negatives that have been made with Leicas over the past 75 odd years you will notice that the vast majority of them where focus could be deemed critical are off just ever so much, yet we are talking about some of the most famous pictures in history. An RF is more about making a sketch, than a detailed rendering. Absolute accuracy is not a rangefinders raison d'être. That's what an SLR is for.


Ditch the loud and bulky mechanical shutter – go to one like on the D1x.

It's been many years since I shot a 1Dx, so I'm a little fuzzy on how loud it was. I think it also used the sensor as the shutter at very high speeds. I can't remember what the trade off was for going this route.

Use RFID chips in the lenses instead of 6-bit coding. If I were Leica, I would use this to eliminate 6-bit “hacking.” Better yet, have the lens transmit the set aperture into the camera for recording.

How about a simple chip, like in Nikkor lenses? RFID takes a lot more juice to run. It could also increase electronic interference etc.


Use plastic covers. The brass covers on the M8 comprise 25% of its weight. Sorry, but you lost me on this one.


I’m not holding my breath.

Me neither.

[Matt(1pt4)]

'An RF is more about making a sketch, than a detailed rendering.'

At 21MP, that's going to be an awfully big sketch ;-)

I'm not all that interested in AF or ERF, but it seems some system for dealing with focus shift is necessary. The Hexar AF did this with a fairly simple AF system, its only shortcoming in practice being the lack of parallax correction for the AF point indicator.

[Bill Pierce]

Glancing through the entire thread, looking for what folks want in a digital rangefinder, it seems that the one thing that is not mandatory is the rangefinder focusing itself. Even when the cams and feelers are within factory tolerances, it's possible to come up with lens and body combinations that aren't dead on when wide open. That is certainly not to say that other focusing systems are automatically superior, but they do eliminate that specific problem.

In general, folks seem to want a small, quiet camera that is rugged and durable, one with relatively simple and easily accessable controls, and a bright line viewfinder system. They want high-speed lenses that deliver quality results wide open (and, I presume, that also means they want a system without mirror bounce to coax the least image degradation out of hand-held slow shutter speeds). They want a sensor that delivers good results at high ISO's.

This could be everything from an M8 with a better sensor and a thumb wind to a variant on the mini 4/3's (the Maxi 8/3's). But, apparently, it wouldn't have to be a rangefinder, just as long as it didn't have a mirror and a pentaprism, just as long as it wasn't a DSLR. Instead of the Rangefinder Forum we would have the When The LED Lights Up You're In Focus Forum.

Any thoughts?

Bill

[Al Kaplan]

Bill, it's beginning to sound like a philosophical discussion on the existance of God. Does God exist? It depends on how you define "God".

[Dante_Stella]

Harry, on that button-for-EV thing, I'm struggling to think of any serious camera that achieves EV compensation via buttons, except possibly the Hexar AF, and even then, the top deck display would always display the compensation until you told it to display something else. DSLRs have blind click wheels, but they also have in-viewfinder displays.

Take a look at the Hexar RF top deck - this is a good model for a future digital M:
Really hard-detent main selector whose "tail" sticks out of the front of the camera so you can easily feel whether the camera is turned on. If you have to have a self-timer on the main switch, this is the way to do it;
Coaxial ISO and EV controls (that trigger a compensation indicator in the VF);
Shutter speed dial (also hard detents) near the rear edge where you can move it with your thumb;
Shutter speed dial that locks in AE or AEL (you can easily switch between the two, and to get off them, you press the button in the middle), is unidirectional (unless you hold the center button), and is virtually impossible to knock out of position.You would never have to turn on the screen to see any major exposure setting relevant to RAW shooting. This design also captures your AE/AEL function. Put in the clip indicator, and voilà.

Inside the VF, the Hexar has a graphic shutter speed display running up the side. You can see the meter-indicated shutter speed versus the selected speed and how many stops they are apart. This would be a nice feature with the M8, which really only tells you in generalities where your exposure is versus metered.

By the way, what you can't see in this picture (rushed as it was - have to get to some Valentine's day stuff) is that Leica shamelessly lifted the left-side battery-and-frame counter design from the Hexar RF. On the right, you'll also see that Leica also copied the 3-position main selector switch as well.

[kuzano]

[quote=Harry Lime;977380]
I'm also grateful because I have been working like mad and haven't had an intelligent thought in a week.
Bill

My work does not require intelligence either!!:D

[Harry Lime]

Harry, on that button-for-EV thing, I'm struggling to think of any serious camera that achieves EV compensation via buttons, except possibly the Hexar AF, and even then, the top deck display would always display the compensation until you told it to display something else. DSLRs have blind click wheels, but they also have in-viewfinder displays.

So, just because everyone else does it wrong, do we have to follow suit?
:rolleyes:

I think dials fall in to two categories:

The problem with small dials, as found on most DSLR, is that they take all of your attention to operate. You have to either pause to count the clicks, which are only a fraction on an inch apart and /or look at the readout in the display to check what you are doing. In either case you have to take your attention off the action in front of you.

On the other hand the dials on something like the M or Hexar have very heavy and distinct indents, so it is possible to adjust them and know what you are doing, without having to pay too much attention.

Buttons are nice, because if you know what your starting point is and how much of a change each press will affect, you can operate them blindly. Pressing a button requires very little CPU power from your brain and therefore is not very distracting.

I've used dials on several cameras I own or have owned, including a Canon 1-V, 5D and currently the D700 and never liked them for the above reasons. As a matter of fact I sold all of my Canon gear, because their entire interface is founded on dials. In particular I really disliked the large command dial on the rear of the EOS series. So, I switched to Nikon, because among several other reasons, I felt that they had better ergonomics.

Another alternative is a lever like on the R8/R9 and S2. Not the ideal solution for everything, but it works nicely for EV.

Take a look at the Hexar RF top deck - this is a good model for a future digital M:
Really hard-detent main selector whose "tail" sticks out of the front of the camera so you can easily feel whether the camera is turned on. If you have to have a self-timer on the main switch, this is the way to do it;
Coaxial ISO and EV controls (that trigger a compensation indicator in the VF);
Shutter speed dial (also hard detents) near the rear edge where you can move it with your thumb;
Shutter speed dial that locks in AE or AEL (you can easily switch between the two, and to get off them, you press the button in the middle), is unidirectional (unless you hold the center button), and is virtually impossible to knock out of position.You would never have to turn on the screen to see any major exposure setting relevant to RAW shooting. This design also captures your AE/AEL function. Put in the clip indicator, and voilà.

That's a very nice layout and I think it works very well.


Inside the VF, the Hexar has a graphic shutter speed display running up the side. You can see the meter-indicated shutter speed versus the selected speed and how many stops they are apart. This would be a nice feature with the M8, which really only tells you in generalities where your exposure is versus metered.

I agree. The M9 should display a few more bits of information in the viewfinder. Shutter speed and EV comp are the first that come to mind. It would be nice if there was the option to choose what is turned on or off in the viewfinder, via the menu.

Leica could also implement a 'Info' mode on the rear LCD that shows an overview of the current settings. Both Nikon and Canon introduced this on their new cameras and it's very handy.