View Full Version : Bloody Vertical Line Problem
I have faced with a huge vertical line problem with my Leica M8. I have 10 more months for guarantee so I sent it back. But since some other users reported the same problem for their copies I am very concerned in the long run. Even if they supply me a new one, I may not be sure about that it won't happen again in some time and if I am in a out of guarantee situation then this would make me really crazy.
I am thinking about what if almost all M8s have this vertical line problem but some will become apparent in the long run, when people use their M8s much more. I have used many DSLRs from Canon and Nikon and I did not suspect any such problem. I think we should determine how much per cent of M8s have this problem.
If any of you guys have any idea about this issue please let us know that. And users of M8, please check whether you have this problem. Since you need to check for it carefully in order to detect, maybe some of us do have this problem but they are not aware of it.
Respect,
Serkan
kipkeston
01-15-2009, 01:30
That's interesting. I've seen a vertical line on mine in the lower right corner with high iso (2500) and severely underexposed. Otherwise it doesn't show up and obviously I try to avoid such conditions.
tom.w.bn
01-15-2009, 01:52
Whatever the vertical line problem is. Do you mean the banding problem that can happen when you hava light directly from the front?
Could you please be more specific or direct me to some sample pictures?
Thank you.
kipkeston: I think I had this one on high iso settings but recently another huge vertical line becomes apparent at all iso settings. And that was depressing. That's why I am concerned about in long run.
tom.w.bn.: I don't have the files with me right now. I may upload them but you can see some other examples in this forum with the "vertical line problem" tag. and that is not the banding problem. I also got banding problem but I think M8s already have that one and it only emerges in some certain situations.
Goldorak
01-15-2009, 19:56
That's the dreaded but well known Leica M8 problem.
emraphoto
01-15-2009, 20:03
well, i know that line... you'r m8 is pooched. they will more than likely replace it and if they don't, demand it.
it's a sensor problem that was prevalent in the first batch of m8's.
all the folks i know who had the issue ended up with a new m8, me included.
the good news is the replacement m8 they sent me worked flawlessly for a year and a half of daily use... heavy, daily use.
tmfabian
01-15-2009, 20:04
That's the dreaded but well known Leica M8 problem.
here, let me fix that for you...
That's the dreaded but well known digital sensor problem.
I've been teaching a class on studio lighting this semester and just 2 weeks into it I've seen 3 cameras have sensor fails out of 2 classes of 10 students each from both nikon and canon and each camera was less than 6 months old.
Remember...digital cameras, no matter how many megapixels they can cram into them right now/how advanced we think they are, are still a young technology and are subject to these kinds of issues which is why warranties are important.
Gabriel M.A.
01-15-2009, 20:52
I've seen 3 cameras have sensor fails out of 2 classes of 10 students each from both nikon and canon and each camera was less than 6 months old.
Oh no! Not flawless dirt-cheap it can leap off tall buildings, fly faster than a speeding bullet and X-ray vision Uber-Nikon! Is this the beginning of the end for Nikon?
Surely you must be lying and be on Leica's payroll :rolleyes:
Goldorak
01-15-2009, 20:53
Fix what for me?
The M8 (maybe only the early ones?) are notorious for this particular problem, and like emraphoto said, Leica will or at least should replace the camera regardless if it is under warranty or not. That problem is too present in the M8 line. Everybody knows it, Leica knows it.
Some Nikon or Canon cameras may have this problem but I think it is not that common. If only early production M8s do exhibit this problem, Leica must have been call all this M8s back to Solms. But as Goldorak said, if even it is present in the M8 line now, that may be huge disaster for Leica. And also what if the problem emerges after your guarantee period is over? Do you have any idea how much Leica will charge you to replace M8 sensor?
emraphoto
01-15-2009, 23:13
i may be wrong but i don't think it is a problem that comes on gradually... i think the sensor displays the problem or it doesn't. it may take you a while to notice, or it may take a certain circumstance to show it's face.
just send it off, email a file or two showing it to the person you have called and are holding accountable at leica (hint hint) and say you want it replaced. if you let them "check it out" or "try and fix it" it will be months before you see it. as well confirm all the items you sent off with the m8 as it goes back to leica. email it to said leica rep and make sure you get it all back.
it sucks to lose the camera for a while but in the long run you are going to want a new one. try and squeeze another year of warranty out of them.
Emraphoto, this is not like that. I don't have a huge vertical line in my photos previously (after using it about a year). Maybe a few vertical line in high iso setting but not this one which can be detected in all iso settings. Recently, a huge vertical line which also have a light spot on it, has emerged. It seems this is a gradual problem and this makes me crazy about this camera.
I am considering to exchange my M8 (if they send me a new one and also in Turkey, guarantee agreement conditions do have a clause of sending new one if it can't be repaired in 30 days) with a M7 and film scanner.
emraphoto
01-16-2009, 05:31
yeah, mine wasn't huge either... quite thin actually. but hey, when you are paying that kind of $ for a camera then it shouldn't be an issue.
i am sure they will have to replace it as the only fix possible is a new sensor.
good luck!
tom.w.bn
01-16-2009, 05:58
Did some research about the vertical lines, took some photos to check it. No problem.
Good for you Tom. Hope you don't see them in the future. Leica service called me today. He said he saw and reported the problem to SOlms and behaf of that problem he detect 3 dead pixels.
Does anyone have any idea about what Leica would do if the guarantee period over? They may stand back to their cameras after guarantee is over.
Praxis Unitas
01-25-2009, 02:48
Upgrade the shutter or something. Then it will be under warranty again. It's expensive (and a workaround that shouldn't be required), but the shutter is nice, too.
LeicaMSeattle
03-05-2009, 08:24
I just sent my M8 in to Leica because of fluorescing pixels along with one dead pixel where a line extends through the image from. I discovered these artifacts after a recent shoot where I was shooting ISO 640 @ f2 in the darker regions of the image. The pixels show up as red, blue, and green spots in about half of the images.
Is this an example of the Problem?
Voigtlander 12mm. M8, no warranty :(
http://thedarkness.co.nz/labs/files/banding.jpg
endrenovak
03-21-2009, 06:46
indeed,the issue is there. just noticed it yesterday and found this thread now.
camera is 2 weeks old, new rather. "my line" - perhaps we can call it - Miline
is just in the middle of the image area, like halving it. oh. yeah, really nice :mad:
sepiareverb
03-21-2009, 07:36
Is this an example of the Problem?
Voigtlander 12mm. M8, no warranty :(
http://thedarkness.co.nz/labs/files/banding.jpg
at least he's pointing to it.;)
b.espahbod
03-21-2009, 14:04
M8 10702 is fixed this & problem will never happen but for the 10701 its still a ticking bomb
I have 333XXXX sn M8, and have the same line problem, sent to Leica today :(
I have 3107xxx with no blue line problem. Also have # 3101xxx that has a vertical one-pixel blue line from edge to edge about 2760 pixels to the right of the left edge of the horizontal frame. 640 ISO.
Not so visible with noise reduction in processing or with jpeg output, but with sharp no-noise reduction TIFFs it's most obvious in dark areas of the image seen at 100%. I've had the camera for over a year, but had never done this level of pixel-peeping until I heard about the blue line problem and set out to check my gear.
The M8 with that problem has just been sent to PopFlash, where I bought it as a "demo" with no warranty card, and they assure me they'll work it out. Good service. I enclosed with the bare camera body a CD with two original DNG files and processed matching TIFFs with orange arrows at each end of the line. I'll see if I can create and attach a 100% crop...
Endre, yours looks different... maybe some kind of banding?
at least he's pointing to it.;)
Yea I know, it’s a bit weird aye.
Is this an example of the Problem?
Voigtlander 12mm. M8, no warranty :(
http://thedarkness.co.nz/labs/files/banding.jpg
No. In certain circumstances (bright highlight just on the edge of the image) every M8 will do this. There is no cure. Fortunately it does not happen too often. I saw it in three shots in 20.000
Just receive my M8 after hot pixel-line repair from NJ, look like OK, shutter now is much smooth, no more clacked sound, interesting, they replaced CCD.
What's the easiest way to test for this? I can't see it shooting in a variety of lighting situations, is it only seen in RAW? Does it show on the LCD at all?
No. In certain circumstances (bright highlight just on the edge of the image) every M8 will do this. There is no cure. Fortunately it does not happen too often. I saw it in three shots in 20.000
sepiareverb
08-02-2009, 06:07
What's the easiest way to test for this? I can't see it shooting in a variety of lighting situations, is it only seen in RAW? Does it show on the LCD at all?
The green bloom should appear on the LCD, the line won't, it is 1 pixel or 2 wide, so a walk across a developed RAW file shot at higher ISO's viewed at 200% is the way to look.
If you are out of warranty I was told it would be $1500 to replace the sensor in NJ.
There seem to be a couple different types or variations of the line problem. See my details in post #23. Since then it's gone back to Leica USA and got a new sensor, with thanks to Tony at PopFlash for handling it smoothly. You can bet I closely examined current 100% TIFFs having no noise reduction and assured myself there's no problem now.
sepiareverb
12-21-2009, 16:01
Mine seems 100% as well since coming home.
Mine seems 100% as well since coming home.Very comforting isn't it, to have the problems thoroughly banished! I took mine on vacation recently, working perfectly other than a bit of dust on the sensor. Ah.... :)
darkspark
12-22-2009, 11:16
Since then it's gone back to Leica USA and got a new sensor, with thanks to Tony at PopFlash for handling it smoothly...
Do you have the name of the contact person at Leica USA? I'm trying to get mine fixed/sensor replaced, but so far 2 reps I've been talking to are not very helpful in this regard and only say that this is part of the M8 algorithm...(so on and so forth) and is not offering me a sensor fix/replacement
Hi -- Sorry, I had my dealer handle it. A lady from Leica USA did phone for confirmation and a first-hand description of the problem after she got the first fax from the dealer, but I didn't get her name. As I described in detail the blue line appearance and orientation it was clear she recognized the symptoms. I also had the shutter and viewfinder upgrades done at the same time for convenience.
Gabriel M.A.
12-22-2009, 14:24
Do you have the name of the contact person at Leica USA? I'm trying to get mine fixed/sensor replaced, but so far 2 reps I've been talking to are not very helpful in this regard and only say that this is part of the M8 algorithm...(so on and so forth) and is not offering me a sensor fix/replacement
They must be either temps or really incompetent. If you get a third person to say this to you, do get their name. They should be fired for talking out of their ...
darkspark
12-22-2009, 16:19
They must be either temps or really incompetent. If you get a third person to say this to you, do get their name. They should be fired for talking out of their ...
Oh, I've been emailing with people higher up who have the word "manager" in their titles (I don't want to be more specific and get them in trouble)... I kept getting transfer from one level of people to another. And mind you, my problem has more than just one-pixel line at high ISO; but in some cases--multiple lines, and in one of my pictures--a wide streak of bright blue band going across a picture (around 5-10% of the picture width). Of course I sent samples to show the range of my problem (4 different original DNGs)... After a month of waiting for email replies, now still I'm waiting for an email reply from another "manager" (higher up)...
I'm starting to think that they are caring less and less about M8 service after the M9 came out(?)... My M8 is out of warranty as I bought it used from a forum member. Though I paid Leica USA (NJ) out of my own pocket to have the M8 CLA'ed and checked just over a month ago. (I found the vertical line problem not long after getting it back from Leica.)
How should I persuade them into understanding and have the sensor replaced? Any suggestions? I've already mentioned that I know that it's a fairly common problem and a number of online forum members were able to get the sensor replaced... (why not me?? :bang: ) And from the replies I got from different people at Leica USA (NJ), they all seemed to be surprised by my DNG files... taking weeks to look over the problem of what's going on with the DNGs...
Help? Please?
I’m waiting to hear back from LEICA support to see how much they want to charge me to remap the sensor.
In the mean time, there is free software called pixel fixer that will remove the line caused by a dead pixel. All you need to do is download the software and add the pixel coordinates for the dead pixel and it can batch process your DNG files and remove the vertical lines.
http://www.pixelfixer.org/
Too bad Pixelfixer doesn't run on Mac. On my shots taken before the sensor was fixed by LeicaUSA, I have been removing the line in the TIFF files manually. I locate the line (always in the same place, so relatively easy), Select All, move the near border of the selection to be adjacent to the line, hit the appropriate arrow key, which moves the selected part to close up the unwanted line. Save and go to the next. Of course this won't work on TIFFs that were rotated a bit in RAW processing...
Oh, I've been emailing with people higher up who have the word "manager" in their titles (I don't want to be more specific and get them in trouble)... I kept getting transfer from one level of people to another. And mind you, my problem has more than just one-pixel line at high ISO; but in some cases--multiple lines, and in one of my pictures--a wide streak of bright blue band going across a picture (around 5-10% of the picture width). Of course I sent samples to show the range of my problem (4 different original DNGs)... After a month of waiting for email replies, now still I'm waiting for an email reply from another "manager" (higher up)...
I'm starting to think that they are caring less and less about M8 service after the M9 came out(?)... My M8 is out of warranty as I bought it used from a forum member. Though I paid Leica USA (NJ) out of my own pocket to have the M8 CLA'ed and checked just over a month ago. (I found the vertical line problem not long after getting it back from Leica.)
How should I persuade them into understanding and have the sensor replaced? Any suggestions? I've already mentioned that I know that it's a fairly common problem and a number of online forum members were able to get the sensor replaced... (why not me?? :bang: ) And from the replies I got from different people at Leica USA (NJ), they all seemed to be surprised by my DNG files... taking weeks to look over the problem of what's going on with the DNGs...
Help? Please?
I full CLA should have gotten you a certificate for a full year guaranty - I am starting to get the feeling somebody over there has taken a dislike against you....
M8 10702 is fixed this & problem will never happen but for the 10701 its still a ticking bomb
From what I can see the 10702 is the chrome version, and the 10701 is the black version.... are there other differences?
If not how can it be that the vertical line problem is fixed in the chrome but not the black version?
Regards
Jim
Well, Jim... As it happened, my chrome 10702 DID have the problem, and the camera was fixed at LeicaUSA last July. My black 10701 did not have the line problem then, but recently I've seen a hot pixel appear at higher ISO, so I need to look into that further.
If you download a program called crossover it will work.
Too bad Pixelfixer doesn't run on Mac.
darkspark
01-30-2010, 20:39
I full CLA should have gotten you a certificate for a full year guaranty - I am starting to get the feeling somebody over there has taken a dislike against you....
I thought so, but I can't get a confirmation from them about sensor replacement (which is the worst case fix, correct?)... [They say that they don't know for sure what's wrong with my camera, even after sending in a number of picture samples and explained my case more than once to each person I contacted.]
And without confirmation, I really don't want to waste shipping cost (nearly $100 from the west coast/insured) + a few months waiting without my camera, just to find out that it's going to cost me a lot more (high hundreds, if not thousand of dollars?) for sensor replacement--in which case I will refuse and buy an M9 instead.
Now, I just try to shoot my M8 at low ISO to avoid the line... and save up for an M9...
Leica USA really disappointed me with their customer service, for just this simple issue of letting me know clearly what I should do, and possible costs [or whether it's covered under CLA warranty] in my case. I don't see how it should be too complicated for any of them to find out.
Has any M8.2 been reported for this problem or did Leica tighten the QC with the introduction of the M8.2?
I am on the verge of getting a used M8.2 and feel a bit uncertain regarding the reported issues.
Menos, I have not heard of M8.2 having this line problem. But in any case I would advise buying a used digital-M from a good dealer who will offer a warranty and provide good customer service. When I finally heard about this, and discovered my chrome M8 had it (took a careful search of full-scale TIFFs having no noise reduction), my dealer PopFlash arranged service at Leica and acted as intermediary in shipping and getting the repair at no charge and upgrades done.
It seems that the very first batch of M8s that came out were flawed in various ways. The sensor was one, high ISO performance was another, banding and moire effects, also when very long exposures were used. All through 2007 it was 50-50 you got a proper M8 but by the end of that year the new batch was better. I never had a single problem with my M8 and I have had it for 2,5 years (and over 5000 pics). Covered or not by a guarantee one should definitely send the camera for repair, problems like banding will only get worse.
Doug and Symeon, this sounds encouraging.
I am sure, to check the camera closely.
Do Leica batteries come with a sufficient charge out of the box, to do a few dozen test frames? I would buy a second battery anyway and I am afraid, the dealer is rather careless about fully charging second hand camera batteries.
I bring a computer and plan, to scrutinize the files closely.
I bought the one, I saw at the dealer - it is sweet so far!
Everything, that has been reported about the M8 seems to fit (including the downsides as forbidden ISO 640 and rough shutter release feel,…).
It does not show a dead pixel line or unusual banding in black frames so far.
I like it so far.
Menos, I have not heard of M8.2 having this line problem. But ....
I had to do without my M8.2 for six weeks
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=76482&stc=1&d=1264781063
remphoto
02-07-2010, 08:56
After being treated like that why would you then spend 7000 more with them for a M9? I know leicas are (were) special but there are limits. I thought so, but I can't get a confirmation from them about sensor replacement (which is the worst case fix, correct?)... [They say that they don't know for sure what's wrong with my camera, even after sending in a number of picture samples and explained my case more than once to each person I contacted.]
And without confirmation, I really don't want to waste shipping cost (nearly $100 from the west coast/insured) + a few months waiting without my camera, just to find out that it's going to cost me a lot more (high hundreds, if not thousand of dollars?) for sensor replacement--in which case I will refuse and buy an M9 instead.
Now, I just try to shoot my M8 at low ISO to avoid the line... and save up for an M9...
Leica USA really disappointed me with their customer service, for just this simple issue of letting me know clearly what I should do, and possible costs [or whether it's covered under CLA warranty] in my case. I don't see how it should be too complicated for any of them to find out.
Thanks, Jeicob, I'm now better informed! :o
Gabriel M.A.
03-04-2010, 18:40
forbidden ISO 640
Here's some Nukular Dispair ISO 2500 :rolleyes:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2348/2051721824_4e4f1d5533.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gabrielma/2051721824/)
M8 + 50mm f/1.4 Summilux pre-asph E46 @ ultra ultra super duper forbidden ISO 2500
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