View Full Version : M5 - Re-Discovering Leica
A while back I used to own 3 different Leica cameras - M3, M6 and IIIF. While all were good and useful, I really never got very attached to them. While I liked a small size and old quality feel of the IIIF, I really didnt care for it's squinty viewfinder. Plus most of my lenses are M-mount, so that camera didnt see much use and got sold.
M3 and M6, while not bad never really excited me all that much, even after CLA on both I still felt that they just were not "me". What made me sell them - was discovering Konica Hexar RF. In many ways a much better camera for me. Yet desire to have "all-mechanical" camera was still there, so to fill that gap I got a Bessa R2M. Great camera, yet I only used it once, as Hexars see all the action usually. At one point Canon 7 came into picture, and while a great camera, fact that it's LTM - makes it far less usable for me.
So after reading a thread on Leica M5 and doing some research (there is a great article on pnet on M5) I thought I'd give one a try. All it's features sounded interesting, plus since it looks and handles somewhat different from a "traditional" M leica made me take a serious look at one. Well, whats a better way to do it other than to get one and see what develops ;)
Today I received my new to me black 2 lug M5.
Fisrt impressions - What an AMAZING camera. It feels much better in my hands. Great viewfinder. Easy to focus. Changing shutter speeds is a breeze. Very solid Wetlar built. I love the racheted rewind on the bottom.
Before, I always hated bottomloading of all my Leicas. For some reason this one loads much easier. I think a bit different loading system was implemented (but I'm not 100% sure), but it just does it right!
It's light meter is much better to me than one in M6. - just feels more intuitive to me. All in all - after just one day - I'm very impressed! Time will tell if this love affair will last, but for now it'll be hot and heavy! ;)
I wish I didn't go for the "most popular" M, like I did before, but rather started with this one. I really don't get why this camera was not success when it was introduced and I can perfectly see why prices of it keep going higher and higher, surpassing all the other Ms (other than M7 and MP). Can't wait to run my first film through it!
Have fun with the M5 Krosya. There was a couple of things that I really liked about mine when I had it ... the meter, aside from very low light, is excellent and the shutter speed dial is brilliant with it's fingertip control.
Compared to an M it is a bit of an ugly duckling ... I didn't mind it's looks though!
Heeey! Who are you calling uglyyyy? ;) It's beautiful!
J J Kapsberger
01-12-2009, 20:59
Before, I always hated bottomloading of all my Leicas. For some reason this one loads much easier. I think a bit different loading system was implemented (but I'm not 100% sure), but it just does it right!
On my M5 the take-up spool can be pulled out. With the base plate off, hold the camera right side up so that gravity causes the spool to extend out enough for you to get hold of it. Carefully pull it out. The film can be loaded in similar fashion to an M2/M3. Does yours have this feature?
The M5 is nice !! :cool: Only problem I see with the M5 is that one has to handle and use this camera to find it out. :D
For fast and heavy 50mm lenses like the Canon 50/1.2 or Noctilux it is the ideal M camera, makes handling much easier.
photogdave
01-12-2009, 22:02
Same type of meter as the CL - I also prefer it to the M6. I would be 100% happy if I could just get a match-needle meter and the M5 shutter dial on my M6!
Congrats Krosya, you're a member now! That protruding shutter speed dial was such a clever invention that even Canon copied it in its wonderful EF SLR. I have both the M5 and the EF and love them dearly. If only after the demise of the M5 Leica would've implemented this single improvement in its later retro-looking Ms, we would have had much quicker and easier RFs.
I have had two in the past, sold them both to try the other M's. Good news my third M5 will be here in the morning. I too will be back in the M5 cult, great camera. Lets keep it quiet so the prices stay low for us. Good luck with your new camera.
On my M5 the take-up spool can be pulled out. With the base plate off, hold the camera right side up so that gravity causes the spool to extend out enough for you to get hold of it. Carefully pull it out. The film can be loaded in similar fashion to an M2/M3. Does yours have this feature?
I didnt check if it can be pulled out. I already have film in it, so I cant check, but I think I dont have that feature, as loading diagram on the bottom is basically the same as it was with M6. But spool itself is a bit easier to operate/grab leader of the film with than M6. And I like it this way, as I didnt care for the way M3 had it with a pull out spool. M6 was better, but film leader would slip off sometimes. In my M5 it seems to grab it pretty secure, so I think it's the best one I used so far out of all Leicas I've had.
If I remember correctly, the spool of all M5 cameras can be pulled out and correctly oriented (that is according to the drawing) re-inserted. A nice feature especially in cold weather.
thomasw_
01-13-2009, 00:11
Krosya, I am happy that another M5 user appreciates its bottom rewinder and its awesome light metering. I wish the MP came with match needle metering...less distracting than leds imo.
As much as they're a nice camera I think they've become somewhat of a curio for Leica fans. You can't really call yourself an M shooter until you've at least tried an M5 and a lot of people also probably get one assuming it will be THE camera for them ... it wasn't for me.
Like my M7 and a few other variants it's gone ... and I've return to my M2/M3 combo!
waileong
01-13-2009, 00:47
How do you guys deal with the mercury battery issue?
How do you guys deal with the mercury battery issue?
Mine has an adapter (have never checked it ...) or you could use a Wein-cell. You can also have the camera adjusted to 1.5V and use P625 cells with 1.5 V.
waileong
01-13-2009, 01:11
From my research, wein cells are expensive. Can the meter really be adjusted to 1.5V? Because from what I understand, the problem is not the adjustment, it's because alkaline 1.5V batteries don't give a constant voltage during their life, hence resulting in inaccurate meter readings.
As I have read it is better to use Silver-Oxide 1.5V cells instead of alkaline battery types. The former have a discharge curve more similar to mercury cells. There is a good information on this problem at the Leica FAQ (http://www.nemeng.com/leica/012e.shtml) site.
I use Wein cells. They last about a year in the Dutch (rather humid) climate. They cost me about 6.50 US$. Insignificant in comparison to the amount of film I use in one year. I haven't yet tried to dismantle the cells. I understand that you could open the exterior shell and replace the actual battery with a cheapo Zn-air hearing aid battery. Anybody tried that?
Nokton48
01-13-2009, 03:41
Krosya,
Enjoy the M5. Try out your Canon F1.2 on it, the overall package is perfectly-handling. Or other big lenses, like the 90mm F2 Summicron, or my 85mm F1.5 Canon. Love the meter, I've -never- had a problem seeing the needle, even at night. Don't know what people are talking about, they should try it before they comment. Love mine and keeping it, after two years of use.
Bigfoot & Bubba extend a hearty "Welcome aboard!"
It appears that Memphis has assumed the duties of Secret Handshake instructor. Thanks! About time I got some relief. :D
Batteries: I managed to assemble a stash of PX625 mercury cells. I recently replaced a Gossen Luna-Pro with a Luna-Pro SBC so I only have to feed Bigfoot & Bubba my precious mercury cells.
Wein Cells: They work and they work well while they work. Once they stop working, it is a very simple matter to seperate the battery from the washer that makes them the same size as the PX625 mercury cell. In fact, the Wein cells are nothing more than a 675 battery in a ring to equal the size of the PX625. When the battery is dead, after 6-12 months, place the battery in the open end of a 1/2" hex socket. Stand the socket up on a sturdy surface. Get something metal that is slightly smaller than the battery diameter. I used a punch that is 1/8" to 3/16" in diameter. Strike the punch with a hammer and the battery pops out of the washer. Piece of cake. A 675 hearing aid battery press fits in the washer. It took a lot longer to type the instructions than to actually perform the separation.
Enjoy your M5. Let the others grumble and mumble about all of the things that are wrong with the M5. We know the truth.
Cheers! :cool:
I traded my M5 many years ago, and I never really gave it a chance to stay with me. I was new to leica cameras and to RF photography, and having bought three Leica M cameras within a few month scared the heck out of me. I sold an M4-MOT and the M5, and I kept the M3.
Tuolumne
01-13-2009, 08:48
I get my Wein cell PX625 replacements from Sammy's Camera (http://www.samys.com/product_detail.php?item=8773). Since when is $6.29 for a camera battery expensive? It's about the cost of 1-2 rolls of film, and it lasts forever. I don't really understand the issue here.
/T
Let it be noted that this is the first M5 Celebration Thread of 2009.
Wein Cells: No worries. No problem. Not expensive at all.
However, the Wein cell is a 675 hearing aid battery in a spacer/washer gizmo to make it fit in cameras. For the very Budget Constrained, the battery & washer can be seperated and cheap cheap cheap 675 hearing aid batteries can be substuted. One more tip for the Budget Hampered: If the hearing aid battery has 4 holes, cover two with a speck of clear nail polish. They may last longer that way.
Always leave your M5 shutter uncocked. That does more for battery life than anything else you can do.
here you go. 30 675 batteries for $15. Isn't that 50 cents each? After buying two Wein cells of course.
http://shopping.microbattery.com/s.nl;jsessionid=0a010c441f4361648aa2174044f1a2cea3 a0a6589376.e3eTa3aSaxmTe34Pa38Ta38Nchr0?it=A&id=6252&sc=2&category=694
Case closed on the M5 battery non-problem.
Glad to see such appreciation for the M5.
I love mine - and after seeing local quickie labs (Target, etc.) stop locally developing film - I'm left with two options: re-learn to develop my own or wait for the lab (and eat through my budget).
It was my first M, so I didn't know what everyone else was complaining about. It feels solid, nice and heavy and it is great to shoot with.
When my M8 finally came in the mail, I was surprised at how light and chintzy it felt next to the M5.
As far as the battery issue, I also use 675 batteries with a rubber ring around it to secure it in place. I have noticed that the meter accuracy starts to dissipate after a couple of months (thank goodness for the ability to check the battery level).
As other, more established RFFers have noted, welcome to the club.
I think I liked it better when all the "real" Leica owners hated the M5. Back then I had a chance of maybe affording one. :)
Nokton48
01-13-2009, 15:21
If you leave the lens tightly capped, you don't need to leave the shutter uncocked.
The attitude by the non believers here at RFF to the M5 is tame compared to p.net.
I mentioned in a thread there a long time ago that I had an M5 and someone told me it was a ... "butt ugly piece of sh!t."
They're nice like that over there!
Keith's old M5 came to me, and after a bit I passed it along to Madoc (Gabor).
I've had and sold (or traded) an M2, M3, M5, and M6, as well as a few CL's, a few Bessa R's, an R2, a Canon 7, and a Canon VI-L.
I've re-bought and now have 2 M2's and a CL.
The M5 is a camera that you either "click" with, or you don't. Everyone has different taste buds.
sepiareverb
01-13-2009, 16:17
On my M5 the take-up spool can be pulled out. With the base plate off, hold the camera right side up so that gravity causes the spool to extend out enough for you to get hold of it. Carefully pull it out. The film can be loaded in similar fashion to an M2/M3. Does yours have this feature?
I never thought to try this, but I shall the next time I load. I've got some Fuji 800 in the M5 now, a third of a roll left, but a rather bright day again tomorrow. Perhaps I'll pull out an ND filter...
Oh to the OP: with a slight modification a Rapidgrip can be fitted to the M5- my arthritic hand is much happier that way.
Oh to the OP: with a slight modification a Rapidgrip can be fitted to the M5- my arthritic hand is much happier that way.
Thanks for the info. Could you post a pic of how this works with the grip - as it was going to be my next purchase?
Here is my new toy:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3258/3194868567_aea7b296f5_o.jpg
Looks nice !! :) Welcome to the club ! :D:cool:
Wow... VERY nice...makes me want to finish off this roll in the M5 now just to fondle the damn thing.
:angel:
KoNickon
01-13-2009, 20:42
The M5 is the apotheosis of Leica rangefinder development. Everything after it is a reworking of familiar themes.
There, I've said it.
Just took a closer look - and yep - film spool comes out if needed, but I prefer to load it while it's in the camera. But anyway- thanks for the tip.
So, now I have another question - whats a good strap for the M5 - mine is 2 lug version, so any good straps for it out there? Or regular straps should work Ok? Mine came with a very generic one and I'll want to upgrade.
hans voralberg
01-14-2009, 06:59
Artist & Artisan strap ;) Or Luigi, I use Luigi strap and love them
Artist & Artisan ... (I had a spare one so it was an easy choice :D)
Could you post a pic of what that Artist & Artisan looks like on M5, please?
sepiareverb
01-14-2009, 13:10
I've got a Domke gripper on my M5- just undid the straps to take off the rings, and threaded it onto the camera.
Congrats to the OP on the new M5... you're going to love it. I too use a Domke gripper on it, works nicely.
On the subject of batteries I believe one advantage in using the Wein air cell is that it holds its voltage all the way until it croaks, unlike traditional batteries. I have had a great deal of luck with them so far, no issue.
Anyway, enjoy the M5 and welcome to the "club"!
Kent
Nokton48
01-14-2009, 14:58
I will also recommend the Domke Gripper strap for your M5, that's what I'm happy with, especially if I'm using a big lens.
Remove the rings and it goes on no problems. Have one on my M2, as well.
Bigfoot lives in half of a Leica ever ready case and is supported by the case's original strap. Bubba hangs out on the Domke Gripper that he came with. I have at least 3 Op-Tech straps doing nothing. One of these days I'll remember to try them on an M5.
KoNickon
01-14-2009, 20:27
Mine has a common Tamrac black and silver "flame" pattern strap that's mainly used on SLRs, with plastic quick release tabs so the main part of the strap can be removed for packing (or to use with another camera with the same system). The color scheme goes well with the black chrome, and the width of the strap fits the two end lugs very nicely.
here are mine
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=66834&stc=1&d=1232002559
here are mine
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=66834&stc=1&d=1232002559
Black for "black-and-white" and chrome for "chromes" I guess... Beauty's
PaulRicciardi
01-15-2009, 16:38
Ya know, the M5 is really growing on me...roundg, those are both lovely
Personally I reallty enjoy the M5. Love the meter presentation in the VF.
My twin M5 setup.
M5 dual lug with 50/2 DR
http://www.kuglin.net/photos/_T0E6083.jpg
a M5 dual lug with 50/2
http://www.kuglin.net/photos/_T0E6057.jpg
At times like this I wish Bubba had the chrome finish.
Nokton48
01-16-2009, 16:13
With M5 case from Mr Zhou, E-clypse rubber eyecup, Domke Gripper strap, 50mm Rigid Summicron w/R1 E39 Wetzlar filter, hairtie, and TomA Softie.
BTW M5's spot meter is -awesome- at reading through the E39 Wetzlar colored filters. Exposures are right on the nose, so far.
These silver-chrome M5 look all very tempting ... :) But no way, not another camera .... :bang::eek:;)
chris7521
01-16-2009, 22:28
The M5 was my first Leica and it's my favorite. I think it is a beautiful camera in black. Sure it is not compact like other Leica's but, it works as good as any of them. There will always be people who love it and for many like me, it's not because it is some curiosity.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/chris7521/IMGP4127m5.jpg
These silver-chrome M5 look all very tempting ... :) But no way, not another camera .... :bang::eek:;)
Oh oh, that sounds like you've been infected... I bet you'll have one within two months... ;)
J J Kapsberger
01-17-2009, 10:45
I think it is a beautiful camera in black.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo121/chris7521/IMGP4127m5.jpg
Yes, there's definitely a black M5 in my future.
I pity the detractors. They just don't know real sexiness when they see it.
visiondr
01-17-2009, 11:11
Yes, there's definitely a black M5 in my future.
I pity the detractors. They just don't know real sexiness when they see it.
...Like women with big knarly feet and hairy upper lips. :p
J J Kapsberger
01-17-2009, 11:18
Yes, like your fellow cyclists. Exactly. (Now I know why you're into that)
visiondr
01-17-2009, 11:21
Oh, you, my friend, are one funny guy! All the women cyclists I know are petite without hirsutism.
Rui Morais de Sousa
01-17-2009, 13:24
I also use a Leica M5 for some years now, and I've been somewhat amazed how people's minds have changed over the years. If I remember well, I bought mine in Photo Reichardt in Wiesbaden, Germany, around 1980. I was living in Germany then. Bought it used, in mint condition. I already had other M models, so using a Leica was not new to me. In those times, the M5 was enjoying, at least in Germany, the cult status of the best camera Leitz had ever built. People praised not only the light-meter, by then a novelty by Leica, but also the shutter quietness, the protruding shutter speed dial, the built quality, and so on and so on. Resuming: having a Leica M5 was the only way of really getting the Leica "nirvana", everything before was almost worthless (I am exagerating a little, but that was the kind of talking you could hear...).
So I find it strange to see the M5 guilty of beeing the worst Leica ever, something ugly and useless, etc., etc. "The camera that almost killed Leica!".
The M5 was introduced in 1971, so I think that maybe now we can be able to try to put it in perspective: it was not the M5 that ruined Leica. The phenomenon was general to all the very fine german camera industry. They somewhat overslept over their prestige and arroganz of it's leading post in the industry. When they finally woke up, the market was invaded by a much cheaper, in some ways a lot more modern, and after all not-that-bad competition. The japanese had done their home work and were taking over! Think about 1971: what do you think a pro (or somebody who wanted to look like one) wanted to buy then? A Nikon F, of course! Maybe a Canon, but probably not a rangefinder. Much less a much more expensive rangefinder! The rangefinder was old-fashion by then. We, rangefinder lovers just could sit and watch the market shrink and shrink... That was, in my opinion, paired with not so much interesting SLR models, what almost killed Leica, as it killed (or almost killed) so much more very fine german camera/optical companys: Zeiss Ikon, Exakta, Meyer Görlitz, Steinheil, Astro Berlin, Rollei, Voigtländer, and many more. No, the M5 was not to blame, it was then a very desirable camera, only to much expensive and out-dated by nature of the market. In fact, if we stop and think a little, it is a wonder that there are still rangefinders at all. Thank's God for the rangefinder renaissance! I surelly love rangefinders!
Back to M5: what do I think? That both sides (pro and con) exagerate. I don't think that the M5 is better than the M4, or any other M, but it surely is a damm good camera! I prefer the shape of the other M's, on my camera the protruding shutter-speed dial turns too easily so I don't notice that I am using a different speed than I set, the meter has "lazy" CDS cells (although very efficient!), the batteries are not easy to find, I don't enjoy the rewinding knob in the botton, and I don't aprecciate the two strap holders putting the camera sideways.
I know that there is a remedy for almost all said above (other mechanics built in the dial, converting the batterie chamber, mounting a third strap retainer, Luigi's half-case, etc), but I still can't change the size and weight of the camera. That can be even good for people with bigger hands, but I am a small type of guy. My hands prefer the round-shape.
My veredict: if you have already a M5 enjoy it, it's a great camera, if you can get one for a good price and in good shape, go for it if it suits your taste. But don't discard your other M's and go crazy looking for an M5, thinking only the M5 can take you to heaven. Both positions, pro and con, are using a lot of exageration! Rui (http://ruimoraisdesousa.blogspot.com/)
Rui,
Thanks for your thoughts on this subject. Very interesting to know some historical facts and thoughts on M5.
As far as last part of your post - while I agree with some of it - having had Leica M3 and m6, I really am enjoying M5. My hands are not that large, yet I do like a bit larger size of M5. I absolutely LOVE shutter dial the way it as, as well as how meter is in a viewfinder. M5 feels ( I know - subjective) soooo much better than M6. Smoother, more solid in some ways I can''t really explain. And my M6 and m3 were both CLA'd. I also really like film rewind on M5 - it's nicely hidden out of the way, unlike one on M6 I always got caught on things, or very uncomfortable to use one that M3 has. Plus on M5 it's racheted! Awsome idea! Even when Leica went back to the "traditional" body style after M5 - I think they should have used some of the advancements from M5. But oh well, - I'm glad I decided to try M5, as for a while I thought I'd never get a Leica - other options just seemed better for me.
Is it a perfect camera? No, probably not, but as you say - it's a very good one!
Rui Morais de Sousa
01-17-2009, 16:04
Thanks for your answer Krosya.
We should better follow our own feelings, and stop caring so much about other people's minds. Sure, it is very interesting to know other user's opinions (that's why we are here in the forum talking with one another, right?), but in the end we should follow our intuitions and make our own decisions. What best suits me, might not suit you and vice-versa.
You are completely right: there is no such thing as The Perfect Camera! As much as I love Leicas (for over thirty years now!), I won't even think of using them for lots of jobs I (have to) do. For certain tasks, there are much better suited cameras, as it is also true that there are certain types of photography that are better mastered with a Leica. As you can see in the photograph above, I run the gammutt from 35mm (and digital, a kind of 35mm for me...), all the way up to 8x10 inches. If I could afford it, I might even be tempted by going larger/bigger...
Time has brought me a good lesson: I use the camera that I feel like using, or I think is better to use, I don't run behind what's fashionable, acceptable, political correct, or whatever. After all it is me who carries them and stucks my nose on them! It is me who presses the shutter!
I wish you a lot of fun and a lot of great images with your M5!
Rui (http://ruimoraisdesousa.blogspot.com/)
HenningW
01-17-2009, 19:48
I should preface this by stating that I started with a IIIg and Ig and a bunch of lenses, then when the M4 came out sold my screw mount kit and went M. When the M5 came out, I sold one of my M4's for it and used the M5 for 3 years.
There were definite pluses and minuses. I liked the viewfinder info and meter, even if it was sluggish. The concept of the overhanging shutter speed wheel was great; the execution not quite as good as it was rather floppy. The two side lugs were stupid; it made it very hard to use multiple cameras with different strap lengths like I and many others did. The bottom rewind didn't work at that time with Fuji films as they didn't have the lugs to make it possible. At least that's fixed now. I had my Super Angulon fixed so it didn't raise the meter arm, and the Hologon of course came with that fixed. I got a new 28/2.8, which was a bit better than the old one in any case.
Other things that've been mentioned, like loading, shutter quietness and smoothness were no different in my experience than M4.
So after three years it was gone. Unfortunately I then got an M4-2 to replace it, complete with winder. What a disaster, both the camera and the winder. I should have kept the M5 until the M6 came out. In any case, I traded the M4-2 in for an M4 again, and used those until well into the 80's.
The M6 lacked the nice viewfinder display, but the meter was better, it was a better fit for me. As for the big lens thing, I never felt the M5 was better or worse with the 50/1.2, 90/2 or 135/2.8.
Leica tried hard with the M5, but due to slow sales never got a chance to really develop and fix the things that needed it.
Henning
Nokton48
01-17-2009, 20:26
How many M8's would they sell, if they also offered an alternative, at 1/3 to 1/2 the price of the M8?
Goldorak
01-17-2009, 22:28
How many M8's would they sell, if they also offered an alternative, at 1/3 to 1/2 the price of the M8?
Let's face it, the Leica CL wasn't the real problem. The real problem has always been the too high price tag of any Leica M model, thus making the Leica CL (fakely) appealing.
A CL is a joke plasticky camera. It asks for an extremely awkward hand positioning, it feels flimsy, the short baselength and film loading all make it an unworthy Leica. The CL is, to me, really worth 1/10th of any M camera and not 1/3rd. False economy all the way.
Nokton48
01-18-2009, 06:44
Maybe you're right, I do think it's all about high prices. I do also think they lost some M5 sales, due to people buying the CL. Maybe they learned a tough marketing lesson. Personally I've never wanted a CL, although I've handled them, mostly at camera shows.
I buy user-grade Leitz cameras and lenses, often at bargain prices, based on what I see advertised all over. I really was happy to get my chrome M5 for $510, and it's even got a name engraved (kind of cool), lots of rubs and a few teeny dings. But if it was perfect, I'd be afraid to throw it in my day bag, and use it. Prices seem to be going up. If I could find another chrome M5 for $510, I'd buy it right now.
richardl
01-19-2009, 10:28
Hi,
I have updated the wiki page on the M5 including the a comprehensive series of links. Any feedback or corrections would be appreciated.
Richard
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