Thoughts on the future of the MP ? [Archive]

BillBlackwell

01-12-2009, 09:47

Are the production numbers of MP's dwindling, and could this camera become a special order only a la carte model ?

Yes, and yes.

Production has already ceased on the M7 - it is only a matter of time until Leica stops producing the MP as well.

urban_alchemist

01-12-2009, 11:31

Yes, and yes.

Production has already ceased on the M7 - it is only a matter of time until Leica stops producing the MP as well.

Source please.

BillBlackwell

01-12-2009, 11:40

Source please.

I came from a reliable Leica source - off the record. Leica is currently burning through existing inventory. Expect the official M7 discontinuation announcement by mid-summer.

J J Kapsberger

01-12-2009, 11:43

End of the road for new film Leica Ms?

BillBlackwell

01-12-2009, 11:46

The MP will be the last...

It really isn't so hard to believe is it?

katgut@earthlink.net

01-12-2009, 12:42

How can Leica--or any other company for that matter--guarantee parts availability for years afterwards (how many is it? Can't remember).
Seems a little too good to be true.

35mmdelux

01-12-2009, 12:56

The MP will be the last...

It really isn't so hard to believe is it?

Well it is hard to believe in the sense that the basis of the company -- the glass -- will be left with no platform. And, the M8 isnt anything to write home about. By shutting down the MP the company will virually self-implode.

BillBlackwell

01-12-2009, 13:33

Well it is hard to believe in the sense that the basis of the company -- the glass -- will be left with no platform. And, the M8 isn’t anything to write home about. By shutting down the MP the company will virtually self-implode.

The M8/9 will continue to be improved upon. Like it or not, digital is here to stay and film is on its way out. If Leica is depending on film M cameras to keep them going, they are doomed for sure.

The thinking is to keep the MP as an a-la-carte camera. When I asked, "will the M7 remain in the a-la-carte program once the official announcement is made?" The answer came back - "I don't know..."

Keep in mind too, that the S2 was announced as Leica’s new flagship camera. The Leica M might actually be discontinued – again.

Keith

01-12-2009, 13:41

Well it is hard to believe in the sense that the basis of the company -- the glass -- will be left with no platform. And, the M8 isnt anything to write home about. By shutting down the MP the company will virually self-implode.

That's interesting ... the thought of a company producing lenses for a platform it no longer supports with any substance! If they were to do this they'd virtually be handing the batton to Zeiss and Cosina to maintain a future supply of new M mount film bodies for their uber expensive glass.

I would love to know what Mr Kaufmman is really thinking some times!

newsgrunt

01-12-2009, 13:55

The idea of Leica only producing a digital rf is utterly baffling to me. With the price of digital M's what they are, they're shirley going down what I think is the wrong path if they deep six film cameras. I'm not a film evangelist but still...

Austerby

01-12-2009, 14:02

Doesn't ring true to me - it'll be just as easy to keep both models in the product line indefinitely and no need to let one go. I would expect them to produce batches from time to time, then run down the inventory then produce some more when the demand is there. No reason to discontinue the M7 at all.

KM-25

01-12-2009, 14:10

35mmdelux

01-12-2009, 14:27

The S2 has a completely different set of lenses, all unproven in the market and outsized priced. This will surely do them in. One camera, one lens $10,000 -- I do not see these in IRAQ or the Amazon.

The M8 is way behind the competition. It needs much more than incremental "improvement." Understood that digi IS the future for now. But I doubt that Leica, the conservative company it is, will cut its arm off by dumping the MP to head in a market where they are picking up the rear. I suspect the MP will continue at least until the near future as did Rolex not discontinue it auto-wind line even tho quartz keeps better time.

Mackinaw

01-12-2009, 14:38

There was a similar thread on the Leica Forum about this in late November. One of the contributor's said, "When we visited Solms this summer, so not that long ago, we were told that both the M7 and the MP are still in production. We were also told that MP sales outnumber M7 sales by quite a bit. An interesting comment from a Leica official was that sales of the M8 had surprisingly boosted sales of the M7 and MP, and that Leica was quite satisfied with MP sales."

Full thread here:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/70489-last-film-leica-m7-mp.html

Keith

01-12-2009, 14:47

People..seriously, in this economy and at a B&H sticker price of $4,395, just how many new MP's are actually selling? They are starting to go for 2 grand on the used market.

Like it or not, things *are* going to get real tough for Leica...

I was curious to see how much the MP sells for in the land of OZ. A google search revealed $5800 AUD! :eek:

The same seller has the M8 listed for $5500.00 ... which is absurd when you think what it actually takes by comparison to create the digital M with all those electronics shoe horned into an innapropriate platform designed at least fifty years ago.

What is the MP after all? Being realistic it's possibly what may turn out to be the last upgrade of the fifty five year old M3. If the S2 doesn't succeed with the M8.2/M9 only ever having a niche market, (not enough dentists in the world) you really have to suspect that Leica have nowhere to go!

BillBlackwell

01-12-2009, 15:01

Let me clarify something - the information first I posted on this thread I can assure you as being "true and accurate" relates to the M7 - not the MP. "It is only a matter of time until Leica stops producing the MP as well" are my words and my supposition.

As to the platform - Leica seems fully committed to the M line as indicated by the new lenses recently announced. However, it seems pretty clear that Leica's sites for the future are centered on the digital age (as well they should be).

If Leica's survival is dependent upon the sale of film cameras, then they will fail. If the survival of the M system is dependent upon the sale of film M cameras, then the line will fail (again). I don’t see how anyone can rationally dispute this.

Having said that, a token film M camera (the MP) in the line is certainly within the realm of possibility. But IMHO, it will most likely be made-to-order (a-la-carte).

Keith

01-12-2009, 15:55

As much as Leica appear to lack a strategy at times that will see them succeed in the future ... I for one hope they do!

It took balls to create the M8 in the current starburst of digital technology that really doesn't have a lot of space for a digital rangefinder to thrive. It also takes balls to persue a design when all is not going well ... and lets face it there have been problems that fans of the concept have had to get their heads around to make the camera work for them.

2009 may just be their make or break year!

MCTuomey

01-12-2009, 16:19

i'm adept at stating the obvious, so:

if film use resurges, and shooters buy new leicas to shoot resurgent film, then leica will make and sell more film M bodies. if not, the number of M bodies leica will make and sell will surely dwindle. if bill's contact is correct, the latter appears to be the case.

no one else has the chutzpah to market USD 3,000+ 35mm film cameras now. not nikon, canon, zeiss, cosina. why would that be? my feeling is ... the makers don't see any earnings potential in that portion of the market.

let's hope for a reasonably decent supply of technicians and parts to support our habit of burning film in the leicas that are still in use ... niche practitioners that we are. lotta love needs to go out to our repair people and film supply houses, no doubt.

dof

01-12-2009, 16:43

As I recall, when Leica introduced the MP, they did so with the promise of parts availability for the next 50 years.

Then again, this is also the same company that promised a "perpetual upgrade path to the latest technology" for the M8. Somehow though, I believe that as long as Leica is in business they'll be more in keeping to their word about supporting parts for the MP.

-J.

MCTuomey

01-12-2009, 17:07

let's look at the marketing proposition of new film leicas analogically in order to negate the considerable affection invested in the brand by many RFFers.

how many people would buy a brand new 1974 BMW automobile today for USD 45,000?

i don't say this to suggest MP owners are foolish or quaint or whatever (i'd love an MP myself but lack the funds). i am suggesting that the marketing concept behind the MP is very limited in its application.

tom_uk

01-12-2009, 23:54

S/h TTLs are a steal at the moment, certainly in the UK. This must be hurting new M7 and MP sales.

Here's my experience. In the past year I have returned to Leica photography. I've bought two new lenses - OK, they're only Summarits, but they are new - and a s/h M6TTL. So I can certainly imagine that production of the M film bodies might be a bit stop-start. While I understand the areas in which both the M7 and MP are (differently) better than my TTL, I can't persuade myself that the difference is that great. However the price difference is enormous - 2.5 times. I paid £800 for my s/h TTL, from a premium dealer. They also had a solitary s/h M7, at £1200 (IIRC). Other than that it would have been new bodies, at a cost of over £2000. Deciding to economise on the camera part, and spend more on the lenses (i.e. buy new ones) was easy.

elshaneo

01-13-2009, 00:25

I personally believe that even if Leica decides to stop the production of Leica M film cameras, it's not going to be a big problem because there are still a lot of quality second hand Leica M cameras still available, and we all know that the rangefinder camera market is tiny compared to the DSLR market.

Last year, I managed to get myself a second hand Black Paint Leica MP at a great price deal when the economy was strong and also when the Australian dollar was very strong compared to the US Dollar, but I don't think that I'll ever sell my Leica MP though...

Debusti Paolo

01-13-2009, 00:57

here in Italy,ofiicial m7 and mp prices are 3000 euro!

TJV

01-13-2009, 01:36

Almost every other company has stopped production of film bodies so it's no surprise if the M7 goes, really. The Nikon F6 is long discontinued, Canon only make a plastic EOS and Olympus don't even make the MJU compacts anymore.

We're a dying breed. I wish we weren't, I really do. I hated my M8 for many reasons but liked it - enough to make me somewhat regret giving it back - for other reasons. Sadly, if I was to buy another digital body now I couldn't afford the M8 again or M8.2. It's the only digital camera in history to sell for nearly $3000NZ RRP more after two years on the shelf from first release. But I guess that's life and economics, two things I'm not so experienced in. I'd love to use my little Leica lenses on the future M's but doubt I could afford it any time soon. So I stick with film and my little desktop scanner and hope for a turn in fortune for a small German company.

stefan_dinu

01-13-2009, 01:49

BMW automobile today for USD 45,000?

A brand new BMW from 1974 will probably sell much more than 45.000 for collectors.
I don't care how much time they will produce MP. The important thing is that I manage to get one when I had the money. And even more important is that I use it and works like a charm. And the most important thing is that I can make photographs that look different than any digital files produced by an M8 or other current digital camera.

Sparrow

01-13-2009, 01:54

A brand new BMW from 1974 will probably sell much more than 45.000 for collectors.
I don't care how much time they will produce MP. The important thing is that I manage to get one when I had the money. And even more important is that I use it and works like a charm. And the most important thing is that I can make photographs that look different than any digital files produced by an M8 or other current digital camera.

even second hand ;)

http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-page.php/carno/45825

now a brand-new m2 repro......................

MCTuomey

01-13-2009, 02:19

that's kinda my point, stewart and stefan. the market for such an item, whatever the price, is limited to the very few (as you point out, collectors, for example). similarly, an MP and certainly the M7 are a rather slim proposition for leica from an earnings generation point of view. no economies of scale since the production will be so limited, so cost and price will be correspondingly high. in other words, very much a niche camera for the well-heeled or those very few who like them enough to sacrifice to buy one.

like any "dying breed" among camera makers and users, we can only hope enough people continue to shoot film with leicas to keep the 2nd-hand market and service and parts support alive.

tom.w.bn

01-13-2009, 02:22

we can only hope enough people continue to shoot film with leicas to keep the 2nd-hand market and the service and parts support alive.

Yes. That's the problem of Leica. A lot of people (or even too many people) only buy 2nd-hand equipment. I am astonished every year how Leica can survive this customer behaviour.

Lilserenity

01-13-2009, 02:46

I had little choice other than to buy second hand (in fact all my cameras have been second hand, and lenses come to that...) as I don't have an extravagant salary to blow ~£2100 for a new MP or M7. (I'd go for the MP myself) At present that would take me a year or so to save for without any glass. As it stands I was able to purchase my M2 on only two month's worth of savings which was a no brainer for me (plus I have really fallen for the M2's simplicity and frames.)

I don't have any plans to shoot digital, I love using film too much (I adore working in my darkroom, well the bathroom) and I don't have any real concerns that I won't be able to buy film -- it'll be around for some time yet.

However, it is still a shrinking market and at the point Leica is losing money producing film cameras (manufacturing cost vs. retail cost) they should cut loose. Why? Because we probably all want Leica to hang in there and even if they only produce digital M mount cameras, at least they will continue to produce M mount glass and that's important.

Come to think of it, with their recent new M mount lenses, I don't think they will be abandoning the M system yet. That said, I am resigned to agreeing the M7 must now be on borrowed time, the MP less so.

Sparrow

01-13-2009, 02:47

Any top “Brand” needs a flagship, at one time Maserati commanded the same prestige as Ferrari, but Maserati stopped racing and the brand slipped, I would guess Leica are more keen to preserve their image. Anyway some people buy a camera to take pics with, and some people buy them to drive around in their Ferrari.

Pickett Wilson

01-13-2009, 03:23

As a film based photographer (slr's and rangefinders), I would morn the passing of cameras like the M7 or MP, but realistically, like many others, I can't afford to buy these cameras new. What would impact me most would be the loss of Cosina's film based rangefinder cameras and lenses. That's the price world I live in for new equipment, and they may be more vulnerable to the decline in interest in new film based cameras than a status marke like Leica.

chut

01-13-2009, 05:09

I'm not certain that the BMW analogy is apt. Perhaps high end audio would be a more appropriate parallel to Leica users. Audiophiles spend enormous amounts of money on vacuum tube amplifiers and compressed air tonearm turntables. Purists contend that analog sound is still superior to digital.

A Leica owner is also more likely to own a vinyl collection, a classic car/motorcycle, a vintage espresso machine, a sailboat, a fountain pen, etc.

It will always be a niche market, but I feel there will always be people who 'Think Different' and will continue to buy MPs and other film cameras.

Besides, there are people out there still shooting on glass plates, and they're not too worried.

qruyk12

01-13-2009, 05:29

Heh, why would you buy a Rolex for $8000 when you can have a Timex that keeps better time for $80? Everyone has their reasons but in the end you really do get what you pay for.

In the end, most people buy what makes them happy. The rest buy what they think makes them look important.

tom.w.bn

01-13-2009, 05:43

Found this video where you can see
a) many analog leicas of the photographer Jim Rakete
b) a small interview with dr. kaufmann where he pronunces the focussing on digital

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mwrlb4_tL0&feature=related

Slightly off topic because there is nothing about MP in that video.

ewoq

01-13-2009, 05:59

Keith

01-13-2009, 13:12

i like jim rakete a lot. i recently went to one of his exhibitions in frankfurt, stunning work.

but his quote that you need a leica and nothing but a leica for that kind of images is just ignorant...

Agreed ... I remember when I first saw that clip I found that comment offensive and stupid! That whole Leica superiority thing just goes round and round ... yes they're a great camera but so are all the Nikon F's that recorded stunning images under extreme conditions from Vietnam and numerous other war zones around around the world.

dave lackey

01-13-2009, 16:19

Agreed ... I remember when I first saw that clip I found that comment offensive and stupid! That whole Leica superiority thing just goes round and round ... yes they're a great camera but so are all the Nikon F's that recorded stunning images under extreme conditions from Vietnam and numerous other war zones around around the world.

Yeah, Keith, but which one has a chicken helmet for image stabilization?

OT...sorry;)

bohdan

01-14-2009, 08:12

Having lived in Germany and understanding their mindset, it is my contention you will have nothing to worry about with the Leica support.

Germans tend to move at a steady pace when it comes to manufacturing and production. If they have, in fact, decided to discontinue the MP/M7 then that is their business decision that makes sense to them and they only came to that conclusion after years of research.

Reputation is big for a company like Leica. If they left us high and dry without support and parts, they would really suffer for any future business. Once a company abandons it faithful in Germany, they will loose the customers' business and never get them back.

On that note, my M2 is 51 years old this year and I still don't have problems getting parts.

EmilGil

01-14-2009, 08:31

[...] On that note, my M2 is 51 years old this year and I still don't have problems getting parts.

Mechanical parts can be produced by anyone with access to a workshop and a CNC milling machine. Electronic parts are more difficult...

bohdan

01-14-2009, 08:48

Mechanical parts can be produced by anyone with access to a workshop and a CNC milling machine. Electronic parts are more difficult...

Yes, that is true. I've never really tried to send my M2's light meter in, never saw the point. However, I would think they they would not have the 'whateverthehellitis' that goes bad on them.

sanmich

01-14-2009, 09:48

Mechanical parts can be produced by anyone with access to a workshop and a CNC milling machine. Electronic parts are more difficult...

There is no way you can reproduce the manufacturing of every mechanical piece to specs without the original plans.

Canibalism is much more realistic a solution....

Al Kaplan

01-14-2009, 10:43

bohdan

01-14-2009, 12:05

Bohdan, I'm pretty sure that Quality Light-Metric in Hollywood, CA can get the MC or MR meter on your M2 up and running again. They just "made like new" my pair of Weston Master V meters that are almost that old.

I will check that out. I was thinking of bringing it to Steve's in Culver City to see what he said. I work in El Segundo, so it is not that far of a ride for me. Thanks a lot, Al.

It's got what I recall being a high/low switch and it only works in one of those modes. I am sure that is something they could fix.