Some Simple 4/3 Questions

[ClaremontPhoto]

I am intrigued by this format.

Is it mini DSLR? The Olympus seems to be, but the Panasonic seems not to be SLR.

I assume the Olympus uses a mirror, but not hinged.

Does the Panasonic have a viewfinder?

One of them (I forget which) has an optional 25mm lens. What would that be in familiar 35mm terms?

Sorry that the questions are so basic, but there is no camera store here and no photo magazines either.

Are any other manufacturers making 4/3 cameras?

[Ronald_H]

You have to distinguish between 4/3rds and micro 4/3rds.

The original 4/3rds is a conventional SLR format, so with a moving mirror. Micro 4/3rds does not have a mirror, so cameras and lenses can be smaller. The only micro 4/3rds camera on the market at the moment is the Panasonic G1. It has an (electronic) viewfinder, and an excellent one at that. More models from Olympus and Panasonic are rumoured to follow.

Standard 4/3rds lenses will work on micro with an adapter, but not the other way round.

For both formats the crop factor is 2, so a 25mm lens will become a 50mm lens

Hope this helps.


Btw, lots of discussions and articles are dedicated to the Panasonic G1 / micro 4/3rds. Google a bit and you'll find lots of info. Although it is not perfect, and slightly pricey, it IS a very nice camera in its own right. But for many people the possibility to use M glass (or Canon FD, or Nikon F or whatever) with adapters is very intruiging. Manual focus is extremely well implemented too, so everything will work, albeit with a crop factor of 2.

[digitalintrigue]

Here is a good comparo between 4/3 and µ4/3:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0808/08080501microfourthirds.asp#analysis

[ClaremontPhoto]

Thank you both, this now looks simpler that there is only one camera.

The marketing stuff at Olympus led me to believe that they have one too.

I'll look into it some more.

[bmattock]

The marketing stuff at Olympus led me to believe that they have one too.


They will have, I believe:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08092208olympus_micro_four_thirds.asp

[kuzano]

Btw, lots of discussions and articles are dedicated to the Panasonic G1 / micro 4/3rds. Google a bit and you'll find lots of info. Although it is not perfect, and slightly pricey.

I have been watching a Canadian seller on eBay for over a month now. The user ID is prodigital2000. In the month of December they have sold the one lens kit on the Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 for auction prices between $495 and 600. Interestingly, they also sell as many as they put up on Buy It Now for $599 and $649.

However they have sold over 40 in December at auction, as low as $495. They list about 4 to 6 a day and none go unsold.

The cameras they sell have international warranty. They have over 70,000 feedbacks at 99% positive.

I know where I'm going for mine. I am not affiliated with them in any way.

There are a few 4/3rds user groups. One is fourthirds-user.com and another is forum.fourthirdsphoto.com

I am waiting on the Olympus compact with the m4/3 format, the 4/3 sensor and the interchangeable lenses. My impatience has me looking strongly at the Panny G1. I have been shooting Olympus 4/3 since the e300 originally came out.

It's a great format if you're not heavily invested in the Full Frame digital myth and don't want to carry those big honking cameras.

The panasonic is opening many doors as a bridge camera to reasonably priced and sized interchangable lens bigger sensor options. Many have been pleasantly surprised by the EVF and how it gains up in brightness in low light situations.

I certainly hope the Olympus makes it to market soon.

[Gabriel M.A.]

Contax 645, Pentax 645, Mamiya 645, Bronica's MF rangefinder, etc., they're all 4/3 format. (4*1.5=6, 3*1.5=4.5).

What was once old is yet again new.

[rover]

I have been interested too in the new M43 format. The Pani G1 reviews well at lower ISOs, but falls off over ISO 400 re noise. I am sure this will be addressed in later models to perform more similar to standard 4/3 cameras as they use the same sensors. The fast optional lens coming in 2009 is a small 20/1.7 which will perform as a fast 40mm. The Pani has an EVF, the Oly prototype has no viewfinder, though speculation says that the final camera may have one, or even a RF like direct viewfinder. It has been said before I believe here at RFF. The G1 with that 20mm lens will be like a digital Canonet.....maybe, something to look forward to I think.

[digitalintrigue]

Two threads regarding G1 noise:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4599

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4699

[rover]

Thanks, even more interesting now.

And check the second link, the photo taken with the CV75. Just another reason to get the G1 and/or the CV75!!! Much to much GAS potential here.

[bmattock]

It's a great format if you're not heavily invested in the Full Frame digital myth and don't want to carry those big honking cameras.

And what myth would that be? That bigger sensors have advantages that smaller ones do not?

I'm fascinated and interested in the four-thirds standard. I'm not turned off or frightened by APS-C sized sensors, Foveon, or even full-frame (35mm film-sized) sensors. I was unaware that four-thirds was going to be a new religion.

[digitalintrigue]

http://www.rangefinderrestorations.com/photo_posts/g1novo40.jpg

[ClaremontPhoto]

So, is this G1 like the size of say an Olympus Trip?

[Pherdinand]

Sso... How much do they cost, these m-to-micro-4/3rd adapters?

[Ronald_H]

If the G2 comes out (with HD video) I'll buy one. And an M adapter too.

No matter how much I like my fleet of old manual cameras, and the results I get from them, you have to embrace the future as well. So much integrated into a small, really capable camera, fantastic!

Sure, build quality isn't Leica, or even high-end Nikon. Sensor isn't up to FF standards (noise, DR) but it's still very good and waaaayyyy better than any compact. I'm going to like it.

[digitalintrigue]

So, is this G1 like the size of say an Olympus Trip?

http://dtedesco.smugmug.com/photos/410416569_eCKPt-XL.jpg

http://dtedesco.smugmug.com/photos/410416285_Ni5Rk-XL.jpg

[rover]

compared to the G10, thank you.

I have a canon g7, which is the camera a G1 (or an M43) would replace in my house.

[kuzano]

And what myth would that be? That bigger sensors have advantages that smaller ones do not?

And it might no be a myth if they would develop the ISO and Dynamic range, instead of packing more pixels on the sensors, not to mention we are years away from a pleasing camera dimension with a full frame sensor.

Mo Pixels is Betta... Sorry, that story is getting old.

[Fred Burton]

But high ISO and dynamic range are irrelevant to the intended users of these cameras. Panasonic wants to sell millions of these things at the lowest possible price to average consumers of compact cameras. They are not going to spend money on the wants of at most a few thousand people who want to stick expensive glass on them.

[JoeV]

...The Pani has an EVF, the Oly prototype has no viewfinder, though speculation says that the final camera may have one, or even a RF like direct viewfinder. It has been said before I believe here at RFF. The G1 with that 20mm lens will be like a digital Canonet.....maybe, something to look forward to I think.

The way that I read the details of the u4/3 format from the consortium's website, the intent of the format is smaller cameras via smaller lensmount, and dispensing with optical viewfinders alltogether, instead using live-view EVF.

The "crux of the biscuit" (to quote Frank Zappa) is how the first Olympus offering is engineered. Panasonic, to their credit, chose the route of using the highest resolution, cutting-edge EVF they could find (from their Pro HD camcorder line); the problem is that Olympus has no such pro video line from which to borrow. So they may choose to farm out their EVF from Panasonic, or use an EVF of less quality.

What I'm alluding to is that the quality of the G1's EVF is NOT intrinsic to the format, rather the result of good engineering decisions on Panasonic's part. This is in no way guaranteed in an Olympus offering, although they're smart enough to see how high the bar has been raised with the G1; I wouldn't be surprised if their initial model is delayed due to these concerns.

~Joe

[Pherdinand]

LOL, that Canon DSLR looks like a 4x5 reflex next to it!

So...Nobody knows, how much are those m-to-micro-4/3 converters? I mean, approximately!

[Pherdinand]

Another, perhaps weird question:
Is autofocus working and okay for manual focus (M) lenses and adapter?

I mean, if they move the chip, why couldn't it work...? :)

[digitalintrigue]

Heh, Zappa quotes on RFF, don't see that too often. :)

€149 for the Novoflex MFT/LEM.

If Oly sticks to their Pen history, and to their Photokina mockup, their first offering will be essentially a G10 with interchangeable lenses and no optical VF. No EVF, no LCD on a swivel.

To me this would make it somewhat more difficult to use manual focus lenses, even if they had the focus assist like the G1. I'm trying to visualize the process of zooming in on the LCD to focus while holding the camera at arm's length, looking at the LCD on the back of the camera.

If indeed Oly goes that design direction (ala Pen F), it's probably because they want to people to buy their offering of pocketable µ4/3 lenses (primes, I hope!)

Will the Oly have in-body VR? Remains to be seen, since not all of their 4/3 models have it.

I'm impressed with what Panasonic has done the first time out with the G1. Yes, they want to sell ten zillion of these, but the last firmware update improved manual focus operation. Now, I wonder who exactly does that cater to? :)

[oris642]

The Milich adapters will be $150 for the LTM mount and $250 for the M-mount.



So...Nobody knows, how much are those m-to-micro-4/3 converters? I mean, approximately!

[digitalintrigue]

I think the M-G1 Milich will be $220, at least that's what he quoted me a couple of weeks ago.

[Pherdinand]

uhh
let's see, the adorama price is 800 usd at the moment (let's forget now that the very same thing is above 1000 euro over here...). Add a 200 bucks adapter to that. Suppose you have some lenses already, it's still up to 1000$ or more!
I'm a bit disappointed. :(

[Pherdinand]

They want to sell ten zillion of these? At 800 bucks which only includes a cheap and slow kit zoom?
oh man. Am i that far behind the world economy?

[bmattock]

And it might no be a myth if they would develop the ISO and Dynamic range,


Whatever makes you think that usable ISO is not increasing, or that dynamic range is not increasing? To the best of my knowledge, both get better with every generation of sensors, full-frame as well as APS-C and so on.


instead of packing more pixels on the sensors, not to mention we are years away from a pleasing camera dimension with a full frame sensor.


I don't even know what you mean by a 'pleasing camera dimension'. What?


Mo Pixels is Betta... Sorry, that story is getting old.

I've certainly said no such thing.

If that's all you think the so-called 'full frame' sensor offers, then you are woefully ignorant about the physics and economics of photography.

A larger sensor gives the opportunity to place larger sensors on the imaging surface, which results in less 'noise' that has to be processed out. This also has had the pleasant effect of increasing those things you seem to feel full-frame sensors do not have, including higher effective ISO and dynamic range.

A larger sensor, like larger film sizes, gives better control over depth-of-field effects.

A full-frame sensor can take advantage of the existing plethora of excellent lenses originally developed for 35mm film cameras at their intended focal lengths (rather than the doubling effect of 2x crop on four-thirds sensors), as well as taking advantage of the huge amount of research already done for lens design and optimization done for lenses made for this format.

In terms of digital image sensors, all else being equal, larger equals better, as it does in the film world. A lower percentage of enlargement to reach a common printing size, such as 8x10 or 11x14 will tend to look better - hence the superiority of medium format to 35mm format film for billboards, etc.

Smaller sensors have their place, and they continue to get better, so eventually some of the inbuilt disadvantages to smaller sensors will no doubt disappear. However, the advantages of a larger sensor over a smaller one in terms of DOF will remain, it's just physics.

So I do not know what this 'myth of full-frame' is. No myth, just facts.

And as usual - I do not harbor any ill-will towards smaller sensors, and I do not see this as an 'us versus them' battle - but as always, some do. If they like rangefinders, then SLRs suck. If they like film, then digital sucks. If they like the four-thirds standard, then all other sizes suck - and so on. Isms are what sucks, my friend. Get over yourself.

[back alley]

uhh
let's see, the adorama price is 800 usd at the moment (let's forget now that the very same thing is above 1000 euro over here...). Add a 200 bucks adapter to that. Suppose you have some lenses already, it's still up to 1000$ or more!
I'm a bit disappointed. :(

they can be had on ebay from 500 bucks and up.
the kit lens is far from cheap, it is slow but incredibly sharp. not many kit lenses have asph elements and ed glass.
cq will have adapters soon, selling at $175.

[digitalintrigue]

Not sure about Europe but they are going for under $600, sometimes under $500 if you shop right.

[digitalintrigue]

So I do not know what this 'myth of full-frame' is. No myth, just facts.

Perhaps the 'myth' being referenced is that small sensors can't produce quality photos...if that's the argument, it's just not true.

The noise situation is very overblown, IMHO. We thought nothing of the grain inherent with pushed Tri-X, and now it for some reason it seems any trace of noise is completely unacceptable.

All these 100% crops on the web are to blame. The only people I know that make huge enlargements (for trade show displays, etc.) aren't using small sensors, they know what they are doing, and the people that view these are not putting their eyes a few inches from the print. :)

[Pherdinand]

Just checked quickly the Adorama 'kit price' (didn't see it witout the lens, though) and on a "where's cheaper" Dutch site.

Thanks for the info, by the way!

[bmattock]

Perhaps the 'myth' being referenced is that small sensors can't produce quality photos...if that's the argument, it's just not true.


I agree. And again, I caution against 'isms'. I like both large and small sensors just fine. It's not a religion, for crying out loud.

Why I can't like both is beyond me, but apparently, we are supposed to take a stand for one camp or another and call the other names. I won't play.

[gdi]

Not sure about Europe but they are going for under $600, sometimes under $500 if you shop right.


Please delete these posts - they are making the prices skyrocket, and I don't have one yet!

[Gabriel M.A.]

I was unaware that four-thirds was going to be a new religion.

Everything is a religion when it comes to brands. Except Leica, of course, everybody has the right to trash it for whatever reason, it's in the Declaration of Human Rights, somewhere. :rolleyes:

[Gabriel M.A.]

http://www.rangefinderrestorations.com/photo_posts/g1novo40.jpg

Hawt dang. I think I just found me-self a new camera.

[Tuolumne]

They want to sell ten zillion of these? At 800 bucks which only includes a cheap and slow kit zoom?
oh man. Am i that far behind the world economy?

The kit lens is wonderful. It can hold its own against almost any digital zoom. Possibly even fixed fl.

/T

[JoeV]

I'm looking forward to using my old MD Minolta glass with this new camera. I have a Tokina 80-200/F2.8 that would, on the G1, be equivalent in angle of view to a 160-400 @ F/2.8 (at all focal lengths.) Maybe I'll have to take up birding just to enjoy using this combination. Or surveillance!

~Joe

[digitalintrigue]

the kit lens is far from cheap, it is slow but incredibly sharp. not many kit lenses have asph elements and ed glass.

Comparisons of the kit lens and a 50/2 Summicron on Digital Outback
(http://www.outbackphoto.com/CONTENT_2007_01/section_gear_cameras/20081119_Panasonic_G1/index.html)

"Note: We currently test DSLRs with over 20MP resolution. To be honest nothing is more fun than the G1 with the Leica lenses."

[Nh3]

The kit lens is wonderful. It can hold its own against almost any digital zoom. Possibly even fixed fl.

/T

There is a simple reason for that. The lens is specifically designed and fine-tuned with G1's sensor characteristics in mind...

[Jamie Pillers]

A great LOOKING little package. It appears this advancement by Panasonic & Olympus will lead to some interesting camera kit configurations. However, the kit shown is now a "portrait" kit... that lovely little Nokton 40 is now an 80! :-(

This technology advancement is definitely moving in the direction I'm interested in... being able to use the lenses I already own on a compact digital camera capable of high IQ at high-ish ISO. However for me a roadblock remains... the high 2.0 crop factor. I like to use wide-angle prime lenses. To use the G1, I'd have to abandon my existing 25, 28, and 35mm lenses and buy the CV 12 and 15. So I continue to wait for the DMDC ("decisive moment digital camera") - a small compact camera with ISO noiseless up to 400, no shutter lag, a big bright viewfinder, and a full-frame sensor. As I've said before, I think we'll see such a thing sometime in the next five years. And the G1 is pointing in the right direction! :-)

[back alley]

i'm not willing to wait 5 years, might not have 5 years, so i am playing with the g1 now.
the kit lens is great, the 45-200 is making some fine images (mine is on the way) and i already have 4 wondeful zeiss m lenses that i can play with as soon as the adapter arrives.
my 21 will be a (slow) 42 and i can live with that on the street.

maybe stephen will send me a 12 to play with ...;)

joe

[digitalintrigue]

The kit lens is great and will cover the 28 and 35mm equivalent focal lengths.

I'd caution anyone considering a G1 who doesn't already have M lenses -- unless the size advantage that an M lens offers is your ultimate priority, SLR lenses are generally cheaper and will focus closer. They are of course usually bigger/heavier.

So far, my favorite alternative lens is the 24/2.8 Nikkor, which is about the same size on the G1 as the kit lens. It focuses much closer than any 24mm M-mount lens does, and has floating elements for close range correction, which to my knowledge, no M-mount lens will have. Also has great bokeh. :)

[Ronald_H]

Another, perhaps weird question:
Is autofocus working and okay for manual focus (M) lenses and adapter?

I mean, if they move the chip, why couldn't it work...? :)


I guess they could engineer it... but they aint gonna. The sensor moves, but it's only to shake off dust.

[shadowfox]

I can attest to the ability of the 4/3rd format to render shallow DOF. Much better than the typical digital P&S sensors.

Apparently most people don't care about this, but I do.

I am waiting for one camera, the size of Ricoh GRD, Sigma DP, Panasonic LX3, that has the 4/3rd format sensor in it. Fixed lens.

It maybe from Olympus, or if Panasonic is smart, that's what the LX4 will be.

[bmattock]

Another, perhaps weird question:
Is autofocus working and okay for manual focus (M) lenses and adapter?

I mean, if they move the chip, why couldn't it work...? :)

The Contax AX film SLR cameras worked this way.

http://www.focalfix.com/reviews/film/contaxax.shtml

Since the Lumix G1 doesn't have to move a mirror and prism assembly along with the 'film' (sensor) plane, I suspect it could be done.

Will it be done? I have no idea. I think you have a very cool idea, though.

[digitalintrigue]

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8769&thumb=1&d=1225419849

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8770&thumb=1&d=1225419849