Black IIIb and lens

[Dralowid]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LEICA-UNUSUAL-BLACK-111B-WARTIME-CAMERA_W0QQitemZ140287019834QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ Photography_Film_Cameras_ET?hash=item140287019834&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LEICA-UNUSUAL-BLACK-111B-WARTIME-CAMERA_W0QQitemZ140287019834QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ Photography_Film_Cameras_ET?hash=item140287019834&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)

Item number: 140287019834

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LEICA-RARE-90mm-3-ELEMENT-BLACK-ELMAR_W0QQitemZ140287012253QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_P hotography_Film_Cameras_ET?hash=item140287012253&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LEICA-RARE-90mm-3-ELEMENT-BLACK-ELMAR_W0QQitemZ140287012253QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_P hotography_Film_Cameras_ET?hash=item140287012253&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318)

Item number: 140287012253

Opinions Getlemen please!

Whatever one might think, and I not aware of this camera even as a conversion, the camera wear is seems extraordinarily even.


Michael

[john neal]

Michael,

Interesting. The serial is certainly in the right range for a IIIb, but I didn't know there were any black ones, never mind "Heer" ones around - thought that was equivalent to the Holy Grail? I agree about the wear pattern, too even - and wouldn't even a black body have had a chrome speed selector knob?

I think I would want to commission an internal examination, just to make sure the collars & cuffs match, before I parted with too much cash. If genuine, it would be a nice thing to have.

'Fraid I can't comment on the Elmar, I'm not up on lenses much.

[Dralowid]

John,

I agree.

Surely this is a later repaint. This calls into question the WH and the Heer, after all, surely you wouldn’t repaint a Heer.

If it were a conversion (and I wish it was!) the combined view/rangefinder window would be most unusual. Even very late conversions keep the separate windows.

If it were a conversion from something TO a IIIb it would have an earlier number.

As far as I know, black knobs and dials are a very post-war thing, see Swedish Army/Three Crowns/whatever.

So, I have been looking for a black IIIb for years but I’ll keep away from this one, it is all too good to be true (apart from the ‘wear’) and someone with even less knowledge than myself will probably bid high.

Michael

[LeicaTom]

This is another one of those "faked" Military cameras coming out of a UK collection, first was that DANA Grey 1946 IIIC and then the fake Black collapsible Summicron and now this one ~ keep away from this camera 100% fake engraved repaint!
* note the fake overall worn patina, the Russian and Polish fakes are often done like this! *

Tom

PS: ..... that lens is also a non Leitz paintjob as well

[Dralowid]

...mind you, it isn't as nice as the fake black stepper(?) IIIc that was for sale somewhere on the West Coast last summer. Sold for big money.

Poor old IIIb didn't really deserve to be messed around like this...


Michael

[LeicaTom]

...mind you, it isn't as nice as the fake black stepper(?) IIIc that was for sale somewhere on the West Coast last summer. Sold for big money.

Poor old IIIb didn't really deserve to be messed around like this...


Michael

Ohh that Stepper IIIC/from III Black paint MAY have been original, after talking to a few Leitz old timers, they said that some very strange conversions were made during WW2 and at times serial numbers were also carried over to a replacement cameras altogether.....

That camera is STILL for sale at Camera West so much that I still know.....


Tom

[Dralowid]

Oh no, don't!

I'll have to check it out again...

Michael

[Dralowid]

$2195.00 Black stepper IIIc converted from III

With the collapse in the £ vs the $ this makes for an expensive Christmas present for myself!

Michael

[M2user]

LEICA HISTORICA PUBLICATION "SCREW CAMERA PRODUCTION" 1925-1960.
lists:-
Leica IIIb 295301-295305 in Black "schwarz" 5 cameras produced 1939.

This camera is listed in the batch 349301-351000 produced 1940 but the total for this batch is stated as 1100 cameras and should total 1700.
This highlights that Leitz factory production records of these early wartime batches contain many errors including e.g. IIIc's listed as IIIb's.
The missing 600 cameras in the above batch could therefore be Leica IIIb's supplied to the military in small consignments and not recorded in the factory records as such.
It could very well be that this is a genuine military camera.
That the German military was using Leica IIIb's has been recorded in British military records of this period and particularly the Luftwaffe aircraft shot down over Britain nearly always carried Leica IIIb's and to find a IIIc in a captured Luftwaffe plane even as late as 1942 was very rare.

[John Lawrence]

I'm not qualified to say whether this is genuine or not. My only comment is regarding the wear on it. My black paint Leica III exhibits a very similar wear pattern on it - and that's definitely not fake and never been re-painted (was sat on once though!).

[LeicaTom]

I`m running this by Jim Lager to see what he thinks, that will be the final word.......

Tom

[Paul T.]

I look forward to hearing more.

My reservations on first seeing this camera were more about the seller - all his recent positive feedback is Private, which means we can't see if he's ever sold a bona fide item, and all his bidders are anonymous - in innovation which is supposed to prevent scams, but more often seems to be used to prevent anyone warning bidders off fakes and counterfeit items.

[Dralowid]

I stand to be corrected...but surely black knobs are strange (apart from Swedish?)?

Anyone have any other examples?

Michael

[LeicaTom]

Just got word back from Jim Lager, he said he didn`t trust it, so buyer beware!!!!!

Tom

[P. Lynn Miller]

Sorry to expose my ignorance, are you saying this camera is not even a Leica or that it is a hacked Leica?

Whatever it is, this a camera I could put to use on a daily basis, just wish it had a black lens like the Leica O...

[Dralowid]

I'd suggest that it is a real Leica IIIb with the appropriate number that has been subsequently painted and engraved.

It is possible that it is original but if it is, it is very unusual indeed (and I apologise). If it is original it is a very valuable camera, see M2user's post.

In the world of birdwatching, about which I know even less, the rule to adopt is to assume that the bird you are studying is neither rare nor unusual...then you are probably right!

Michael

[P. Lynn Miller]

Sadly, I have no interest in the camera as a collector, just as a user. I am looking for 'pocket' camera, and am thinking that a Leica LTM with a collapsible lens could just be the answer. And I prefer black cameras, so this one caught my eye as well worn user to live in my pocket.

Off-topic, but did Leica ever make the collapsible 50 in black similar to the lens on the new Leica O?

[John Shriver]

Black III's are the newest LTM cameras that are reasonably prolific in black, and thus not pricey. By the IIIa, they start to take off in price. Even a chrome IIIb is pricey, thus a legitimate black IIIb is very pricey.

[P. Lynn Miller]

John,

Sorry to be dense... are you saying that as Leica progressed through the III-series, from the III to the IIIa to the IIIb and etc, that the cameras became more predominantly chrome with fewer and fewer black cameras being made?

[chippy]

John,

Sorry to be dense... are you saying that as Leica progressed through the III-series, from the III to the IIIa to the IIIb and etc, that the cameras became more predominantly chrome with fewer and fewer black cameras being made?


pretty much Lynn, the early ones were generaly black, cheaper and easier to produce than chrome or nickle--remembering that chrome wasnt used much or availble for cameras in general in the very early days, nickle was used but mostly for lenses and hardware peices..

as time went on (IIIa ect) chrome was considered the choice finish on a camera (more durable and shiny fancy), painted camera in those days usualy considered a cheaper camera and not as preferable to chrome, so not as many black cameras made. ...the fact that black paint doesnt wear as well as chrome in most instances means there are less black camera available now in nice condition so they fetch a higher price...it seems people like whatever they cant have easy :D so black tends to fetch high price now (just like the grey paint camera of the IIIc era, not better a finish, in fact an inferior finish to good quality chrome but sort after nowadays). no doubt if most were made black than people would want the chrome instead..

the LTM's are beautifull little camera to use , but if you are simply after a nice compact user camera there are other choices that may suit better, using the old LTM's is fun, but by more modern standards they have their drawbacks...but if you enjoy using something that is 'period' , has a great mechanical feel to it and a few 'pita's' that you can forgive (i think is how people refer on the net to things have little arkward things about them) then they are great...

[Dralowid]

I work on the assumtion that an ltm black camera later than a II or a III is most likely to be a conversion or something very rare indeed.

Apparently there was a batch of serial numbers put to one side for black IIIa, but it is said that none were produced. There are plenty of black IIIa cameras around and these are conversions, mostly from I and II and have serial numbers to match.

Black cameras in worn condition used to be amongst some of the least expensive Leicas around but this is no longer the case.

If you want an affordable 'user', I'd look for IIIc and IIf. And if you have just a tad of the collector in you, the black dial IIf is surprisingly inexpensive for something made in small numbers.

Michael

[john neal]

Well, it looks like the folks on the video game thought that was a genuine deal - it closed at
£3,858.85 :eek:

I hope that somebody doesn't get a nasty surprise when they send it off for a CLA!

[Dralowid]

Blimey, wonder what they know that we don't...or maybe they don't???

Michael

[John Lawrence]

Someone has deep pockets....

[john neal]

Blimey, wonder what they know that we don't...or maybe they don't???

Michael


Michael,

I guess we will never know.

I wonder if it was the same guy who walked into MW Classic one Monday and bought every black Barnack they had in stock?

[LeicaTom]

Wow!

Over $4,500 for a questionable camera?

I wish I could know who bought this, I`d sell him my collection for $10k then he`d be sure to be getting some original stuff :)

Tom

[Dralowid]

I was keen to bid a 'normal balck conversion' price plus a bit but it ran away far too soon...

...but...

...I still couldn't understand the black knobs.

Has anyone seen any cameras from that period that had black knobs?

(post '45 I know of IIIf and IIIg Swedish army)

Somebody put my mind at rest, I'm fretting!

Michael

[LeicaTom]

Like I said Jim Lager said it was a doubtful camera (made out of fantasy)

The Swedish Army IIIF`s and IIIG`s had the black knobs, they were the ONLY postwar cameras made like that.

Tom

[Dralowid]

"they were the ONLY postwar cameras made like that."

Tom,

Can I assume they were the ONLY ltm cameras made like that?

Michael

[Rob-F]

Is that an "X" after the serial number? I couldn't quite tell if it was an "X" or a "K" but I don't know why it would be a "K." I never heard of a IIIbK. But I never heard of a IIIbX either.

@Lynn: there are examples of the 50mm Elmar, latest version, finished in black; though the barrel part is still bright chrome in the ones I've seen.

[Vince Lupo]

Not sure if this is right or not, but wasn't it an asterisk? And doesn't that mean that the serial number was issued twice? Or it was a 'double delivery'? I could be wrong!

[LeicaTom]

Hmmm I wonder why so many of you doubt what Jim Lager had to say about this camera......I really think that when he says "hands off" it`s a no no and a waste of good money , and not a camera to lose sleep over.

Ohh Vince, drop me an email I have new information about your MOOLY Motor and when it was made etc.

Tom

[Harry Lime]

With all very due respect to Mr Lager, for a serious evaluation the camera really needs to be examined in person and possibly partially disassembled. He himself would probably agree with that.

But it is a strange camera and I fully agree with Mr. Lager that there is reason to be skeptical. I don't believe I have ever seen a black paint WM camera, let alone one with black knobs (except for the post war Swedish ones).

It would be interesting to examine the paint. Does the paint on the knobs match the body? If the paint was analyzed, would it date as modern?

[demian]

Agreed.

<EDITED: ah forget it...why do I become so involved?! deleted>

[Rob-F]

Hmmm I wonder why so many of you doubt what Jim Lager had to say about this camera......I really think that when he says "hands off" it`s a no no and a waste of good money , and not a camera to lose sleep over.

Tom

Tom: Not sure who that was directed at. I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that I doubt Jim. I'm sure it's not authentic. But I wonder what was intended by the engraving after the serial# ?

[LeicaTom]

But I wonder what was intended by the engraving after the serial# ?

Ohh so much of what we know the * asterisk is donoting double delivery/reissued serial number from damaged destroyed camera or just for issue records denoting reissue etc. (double number etc. etc. I know of Chrome IIIC K`s that are double delivery ** issued three times same number ~ 1943/45 and 45)

The * asterisk seemed to be far too clean, also it`s hard to say if it wasn`t put there by the factory, while most asterisk`s I`ve seen before, were stamped a little high or lower than the serial number line......

Tom

[Rob-F]

OK so it's an asterisk then. I couldn't make it out well enough on my screen. Aging eyes. So, interesting that the asterisk aroused suspicion because it looks too good. This reminds me of a story I read once about a counterfeiter who was caught by the treasury department because he was doing a better job of engraving and printing than the US Bureau of Engraving and Printing! In the story, when he got out of jail, they bought his press from him and hired him!

[Dralowid]

If every Leica ‘expert’ were all as knowledgeable and infallible as they think they are, there would be no market for these ‘interesting variations’.

I am inclined to start a new thread:

I am a Leica Expert because...


Michael