Dangerous Madrid? [Archive] - Rangefinderforum.com

DxPhoto

11-24-2008, 18:01

I am thinking of taking a mini vacation in Madrid. But i heard a lot of things saying it's kinda dangerous there, for tourists (such as robberies, fake cops and so on).:( ...

obviously i will be carrying my cameras, and I don't want to lose them. I am thinking of leaving my M and taking the G1 with me in case anything happens.... Any advices and suggestion?? Compare to NYC, I was able to hold my M on hand all the time on the street (during the day).

Also, is there a good photo lab in Madrid that I can use? I don't think i can get my film hand checked in Spain so i'd better just have them developed (c41/e6) there.

Thanks.

Pablito

11-24-2008, 18:07

Spain, and quite a few other European countries, is full of pickpockets and bag snatchers especially around crowded places and tourist attractions. Just hold on tight to your stuff. If youre careless you'll surely lose your stuff, if youre careful it's highly unlikely. Very little violent crime or armed robbery; generally it's grab and run. And they run fast. And they know where they're going. They pretty much just vanish.

dovevadar

11-24-2008, 18:25

Hi, I spent 9 days alone in Madrid without any problem. Thing is not to carry back pack. use a sling bag and have a look.. Know what is going on.. the pick-pockets knows you know your stuff right from your face rather than a silly blur tourist who only cares about sight-seeing. They are usually the victims. I have noticed some teens on the street, they look at me from top to toe.. surely up to no good i thought, instead of walking on I gave them eye contact and they looked elsewhere... Madrid is a beautiful place with nice people. There are so many police on petrol at every street esp on weekends. Generally its a very safe place.

as for photo labs.. I only came across 1. Its down the street of puerta de sol, the same street which you will see burger king, modern chain hotel puerta de sol.. walk down the street (opp direction of puerta de sol (central square)... the shop is on your left. Im not sure about the price of items in madrid.. but I deperately need a cf card reader which they were selling for 20euros (very expensive for a brandless one).

hope this helps :cool:

peter_n

11-24-2008, 18:48

Madrid is beautiful and the people are very friendly. You'll be totally safe there. I took a Domke F-2 and two M bodies and three lenses and came back with everything. :) Just be careful where there are crowds, places like the Rastro at weekends. There are pick-pockets about. I would love to go back...

serpia

11-24-2008, 18:59

It's been a couple of years since I was there, but I felt very safe, especially in the city center where there are always lots of people. I don't know where you're from, but store hours are odd by American standards, so finding a lab open when you expect it might be hard.

There have been threads on X-ray machines, and based on what I read in them I would not worry about that, but I tend to stick to slower film.

DxPhoto

11-24-2008, 20:06

is it nice in December? :)
i guess a tamrac bag is too obvious?

And thank you all for your replies and help!!

photomoof

11-24-2008, 20:25

is it nice in December? :)
i guess a tamrac bag is too obvious?

And thank you all for your replies and help!!

Only if you carry it with the free Tamrac t-shirt, that says "I am a tourist with lots of cameras, in my Tamrac bag."

Lived there for a short time during the worst of the cocaine epidemic, it was a bit much, but manageable. The crime in southern Europe takes a bit of time to adjust to, but is seldom violent.

yanidel

11-24-2008, 21:07

These kind of beliefs kind of upset me and I don't understand how this happens. Yes, like any big city, you might get your bag snatched or wallet stolen. But this happens only to careless people.
I lived in Madrid for 5 years and never even perceived it as "dangerous Madrid" but as "wonderful Madrid". Lot of socializing, fun and open hearted people, so please, go there thinking you will have a great time, do not go if you were going in to the Bronx, this is simply not true.

Paco

11-24-2008, 22:14

I live in Spain .Spain is a very safe country. but there's always take certain precautions with the bags, the cameras .... especially on the terraces of the bars .... the centers of large cities there are always thieves in search of careless or confused tourists, who are easy victims. Madrid receives millions of tourists. We should not be afraid, but to walk on certain locations and hours have determined your risk around the world. photo lab FOTOCASION street Ribera de curtidores 22 best photography shop in Madrid . you do not have to be worried and bon voyage.

waileong

11-24-2008, 22:41

Well, I lost my backpack there with my train tickets, clothes, gloves and camera Atocha trains station. It was stolen when I put it on the floor as I was distracted by my kid.

Sadly Madrid, like other European cities, has lots of illegal foreigners from Africa (they swim over from Algeria or Morrocco?) but some come from as far away as China. You'll see them on the streets selling DVD's and fake goods, etc.

And because of the integration of the European community, once they are in an EU country, they no longer have to produce passports at border checkpoints, so it's easy for them to spread out through the EU.

Hence I saw the same kinds of illegal immigrants when I was in France.

Bottom line-- hold on tight to your belongings, don't get distracted by people who drop things in front of you, etc.

I am thinking of taking a mini vacation in Madrid. But i heard a lot of things saying it's kinda dangerous there, for tourists (such as robberies, fake cops and so on).:( ...

obviously i will be carrying my cameras, and I don't want to lose them. I am thinking of leaving my M and taking the G1 with me in case anything happens.... Any advices and suggestion?? Compare to NYC, I was able to hold my M on hand all the time on the street (during the day).

Also, is there a good photo lab in Madrid that I can use? I don't think i can get my film hand checked in Spain so i'd better just have them developed (c41/e6) there.

Thanks.

gertf

11-24-2008, 23:01

Hence I saw the same kinds of illegal immigrants when I was in France.

You should join up with the local immigration police, being able to identify illegal immigrants on sight and all.. :p

Otherwise good advice all around. Enjoy yourself but look after your gear.

My two cents:

Wear pants, somehow people in shorts and sandals stick out.

You can thread your bag straps with piano wire to avoid someone cutting it with a knife if you're worried, but you may not get on the plane without taking it out if its picked up by the x-ray machine.

Rayt

11-24-2008, 23:13

javimm

11-24-2008, 23:33

Hi.
I've live in Madrid since I was born, and I'm 31. I've travelled to a lot of places around the world, and I can say that Madrid is no different to any other european city. I've been to Paris, Amsterdam, all around Germany, Hungary, Prague, etc, and I haven't felt more secure there than in Madrid.

Having said that, you have to take care about what you carry and NEVER lose contact with it. If you leave it for 2 seconds in the floor in a tourism place like Plaza Mayor or Puerta del Sol, you're going to get robbed. Just carry and unbranded little bag, sling type, and you'll be ok. As it's been said, 90% of the robbers in Madrid are foreigners, most of them coming for eastern europe, Rumania, mainly. They almost never assault, but get your things and run away. Don't trust foreign little children neither. Eastern europe gangs use them to rob, so beware.

About what you've heard about fake cops. Well, don't know where you've heard it, but I can say it's completely false. The police is very useful and helpful, even more with tourists.

Plaza Mayor is a great place to go in Christmas. Ecen better on Sundays. Lots people, strange performers... fantastic for photographing. If you see someone there with a black M6 on Sunday morning, maybe you find a fellow RFF member.

Enjoy your trip. You'll love it. Don't be scare and don't let any unfounded fear ruin your vacation.

Edited to add:
About photo labs, I can recommend Fotocasion as someone recommended. It's mainly a shop, but I think they send film outside for developing.

Another lab is Dinasa. They're a top pro lab. Some of the photographs you can see in Reina Sofia Museum (I don't know if thoses photographs are still exhibited; they belong to the Museum Collection) have been printed there. Top notch work. This isn't a 1-hour lab though.

yanidel

11-24-2008, 23:49

Wear pants, somehow people in shorts and sandals stick out.
ah ah ah good one, you meant Americans right ? ;)

yanidel

11-24-2008, 23:51

I was standing next to my friend when he got his wallet snatched in the Paris subway a few years ago and lost 2000 Euros. There were 6 of them and they put of a "show" to distract him. It was impressive.
Did your friend get a kind of Darwin award ? ;) Sincerly, taking 2000 euros in a subway was not a very wise move, especially since credit cards and checks are accepted in almost 100% of places.

Roger Hicks

11-24-2008, 23:59

Sure, there are sneak thieves everywhere there are tourists -- I lost a camera bag in Delhi 25 years ago, in part of an elaborate scheme that involved turning off the lights in a railway carriage and 'helping' us in -- but as everyone else says, once you're aware of that sort of thing, the risks diminish very greatly indeed.

My favourite 'fear of travelling' story was someone who asked, "Are English pubs safe?"

Cheers,

Roger

ClaremontPhoto

11-25-2008, 00:00

Sadly Madrid, like other European cities, has lots of illegal foreigners from Africa (they swim over from Algeria or Morrocco?)

You cannot swim from north Africa to Europe, and anyway most of these economic migrants work in low paid agricultural jobs such as tomato farms.

...but some come from as far away as China. You'll see them on the streets selling DVD's and fake goods, etc.

There is a well-established Chinese community in Iberia. I know many Chinese people personally and cannot agree with your assessment. They sell good quality stuff at low prices, and work very hard indeed.

And because of the integration of the European community, once they are in an EU country, they no longer have to produce passports at border checkpoints, so it's easy for them to spread out through the EU.

Just like people can travel across the USA you mean?

Hence I saw the same kinds of illegal immigrants when I was in France.

Many of the people you may have seen there are French citizens from overseas 'departments'.

I feel safe if I don't dress like a tourist, don't gaze about over much, and do carry a local newspaper.

Rayt

11-25-2008, 00:01

Did your friend get a kind of Darwin award ? ;) Sincerly, taking 2000 euros in a subway was not a very wise move, especially since credit cards and checks are accepted in almost 100% of places.

I told him not to carry so much cash. I guess in some situations it is ok to blame the victim.

teo

11-25-2008, 00:02

Seriously, to find dangerous Madrid you should be used to live in the desert or in some Amish community...

...and... immigrants swimming from Africa? I know who to bid on in the next Olympics... ;-)

Rayt

11-25-2008, 00:07

Seriously, to find dangerous Madrid you should be used to live in the desert or in some Amish community...

...and... immigrants swimming from Africa? I know who to bid on in the next Olympics... ;-)

Sometimes the boats sink and the asylum seekers have to swim. Some countries encourage their sinking more than others apparently.

Socke

11-25-2008, 00:28

No problem at all, I was in Madrid very close to Grand Via and Puerto del Sol. Shot e100 and e200 as well as APX100 and 400.
I got away unbruised and the film developed well when back home.

Only hassles, I had to take out the cotton from my Zippo lighter, take out the film of my camera and remove my belt when I boarded in Bremen and again in Paris where I changed my plane.
Not so on the way back :)

Oh, when you walk through the street with all the hookers at night, don't mind putting your camera away, they just don't care. At least for Contax Gs :)

gertf

11-25-2008, 00:31

Socke

11-25-2008, 00:35

Slightly off topic, how are European airports regarding hand checking film? We're going to London (both Heathrow and Stansted)/Salzburg/Bangkok/phuket over Christmas, anyone have experience with airports there?

Gert

They don't! At least Bremen <-> London, Bremen <-> Paris and Hamburg <-> Viena, that's where I travel often.

I haven't used anything over ISO400 in a long time, but 4 years ago my Delta 3200 went through X-Ray scanners in Bremen, Frankfurt, Varadero and back trough Varadero and Munich without any problems.

gertf

11-25-2008, 00:48

Thanks Socke, I'll probably just bring ISO400 film in that case. I can always push it if necessary.

Cheers,
Gert

ZeMane

11-25-2008, 01:25

Hi!!Another "madrileño" here!!!

Do not worry too much about safety during your holidays. Madrid is as dangerous/safe as any other european city. Just use your common sense and take care of your wallet/belongings in the subway, bus, bars and other crowded places. Even at night you should not worry... even more, enjoy the active night-life in the city centre!!

I 100% subscribe previous positive comments and especially that from ClaremontPhoto about inmigrants.

As for developing your film, there are several places all around downtown (C41, 1hr/24hr minilabs). Fnac, El Corte Ingles and some small photography shops near the Puerta del Sol, Plaza Mayor, Callao areas could do the job fine.

Enjoy your holidays and feel free to contact me if you want to share some beer/coffee or need some indications.

Zé

ClaremontPhoto

11-25-2008, 02:06

...and the asylum seekers have to swim.

How did your 'illegal immigrants' morph into 'asylum seekers'?

Are the people who cross the Rio Grande from Mexico into the USA 'asylum seekers' too?

The vast majority in both cases are economic migrants. People from poorer countries who come to look for work, and send money back to their families.

Recently I went to pick up money from a local Western Union office, and the clerk could not understand that I was collecting money instead of sending money. That's all he ever does, send money.

gertf

11-25-2008, 02:17

Recently I went to pick up money from a local Western Union office, and the clerk could not understand that I was collecting money instead of sending money. That's all he ever does, send money.

Going a bit off topic but interesting discussion nonetheless.

My wife is half Tongan, and most of her Tongan family sends money home to their parents, sisters, brothers, cousins, or whomever else they may choose to support. These remittances make up 27% of the country's GDP!

I find it interesting that countries that were 'founded' by immigrants, such as Australia and the US, now keep others out that are coming in search of a job that will help them support their families back home. And they're automatically labelled illegal immigrants or illegal asylum seekers.. tsk tsk

My favourite label is still 'illegal refugee'. Behold the irony..

Some remittance statistics:

The World Bank reported that inward remittances totaled $276 billion in 2006, double the $131 billion in 2000 and the $102 billion in 1995. Some $206 billion in remittances flowed to developing countries.

India received the most remittances in 2006, $26.9 billion; followed by Mexico, $24.7 billion; China, $22.5 billion; Philippines, $14.9 billion; and France, $12.6 billion. As a share of GDP, remittances were 32 percent of Moldova's GDP in 2005; 27 percent of Tonga's GDP; 26 percent of Guyana's GDP; and 23 percent of Haiti's GDP.

Gert

ClaremontPhoto

11-25-2008, 02:20

How will Britain ever host the 2012 Olympic Games if migrant workers don't go there now to build the facilities?

gertf

11-25-2008, 02:32

We still have politicians that want to restrict migration from non-white countries. One in particular is very concerned over 'diseases brought to Australia by African migrants'.

It's nice to see the world has moved on from the racist attitudes of the past..

To the OP, all the best for your trip to Madrid! I'm sure you'll be fine and you won't have any problems. I'd be more worried of drunk Pommies on booze tours than pickpockets :p

ClaremontPhoto

11-25-2008, 02:33

As for developing your film, there are several places all around downtown (C41, 1hr/24hr minilabs). Fnac, El Corte Ingles and some small photography shops near the Puerta del Sol, Plaza Mayor, Callao areas could do the job fine.

I've never had film developed in Madrid, but can vouch for Fnac and El Corte Ingles from going to other cities. They are both high quality stores which you'll find in the shopping districts and they will do good work.

Fnac is into media. As well as developing your film there will likely be a photo exhibition, DVD's for sale, televisions, books, and a juice bar.

El Corte Ingles is a chain of Spanish department stores.

Whichever, just tell 'em Zé and Jon sent you.

Sparrow

11-25-2008, 02:36

How will Britain ever host the 2012 Olympic Games if migrant workers don't go there now to build the facilities?

following the economy’s “downturn” finding building workers isn’t a problem, British ones to boot, all the others are off home in search of a better lifestyle :)

ClaremontPhoto

11-25-2008, 02:46

nbphoto

11-25-2008, 03:10

Regarding hand checking of film at european airports:

I have taken my medium format rig to Spain and Italy recently a few times. If you dont speak the language you have NO chance. I put my film in a lead lined bag and it goes through in my cary on luggage. At Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton and Stanstead I have requested hand checking. Once, was fine, they gave it a cursory look. Once they unwrapped 100 rolls of 120 film and swabbed the lot for traces of explosive. Once they flatly refused and xrayed it out of the bag. Once I didnt say anything, it went through the xray in the bag and was un-noticed. Once I tried the same thing, but they noticed the bag, then hand searched the contents briefly.

At all non english speaking airports I dont say a thing, and let the bag pass through with its contents intact. Its been spotted twice and hand checked.

In summary. If you are taking iso 400 or slower film then you can happily pass through a few machines, just get it processed asap. If you have anything fast.. buy a lead lined bag. NEVER declare it for hand checking especially if you dont speak the local language. Just let it get scanned in the bag. Chances are they wont spot it.

Put 1 roll of 3200 in the bag. If picked up, you can plug this out first and say "look, fast film, not xray safe" and hope you have a knowledgabe security officer. Of course all the above depends on the day, the world threat at the time, what the guard had for breakfast, when their next break is, if you look like a muslim terrorist or drug traffiker etc

As for camera safety in Spain. I have never had a problem. To most casual criminals a film camera is an antiquated worthless piece of junk. You wallet will be of far more interest. I would recomend some black electrical tape over the Leica red dot to make it look a bit bland. Keep your bag to your side, not behind you and zipped etc. Put the camera at the bottom of the bag and some junk ie rolls of film, maps, guide book etc on top. If you are really evil.. get a ball of blue tack about 2" in diameter. Put some pins in the blue tack, head first sot make a ball of needles. Put this in your camera bag.. Prying hands may be distracted by this.. you, knowing its there can be more careful removing your gear.

Sparrow

11-25-2008, 03:26

Sparrow/Stewart:

A good friend of mine, Antonio, is a skilled artisan. A year ago he told me he was about to retire. Later, we chatted about the 2012 Olympics and he changed his mind and has gone there to work, not only for the build but also for the remodeling after the games.

He'll work 50 weeks a year, and spend two weeks a year with his family in Portugal.

I know he's living in a room in a boarding house shared with another worker, and he's saving every single penny he makes to buy his daughter a house in about 2014.

There are not enough skilled and motivated workers in Britain to do what Antonio is doing.

It's a win win situation.

Jon; the Olympics is about the only thing that’s certain to be built over here at the moment, I agree about the work thing, an Albanian friend of mine has gone from refugee to home owning farther of two by dint of hard work.

But then I suppose Balkan politics could focus someone’s mind on life’s priorities

micromontenegro

11-25-2008, 04:01

Living in a really dangerous city, and nevertheless always carrying expensive cameras all around, these threads leave me a little dizzy. Madrid is a heaven of safety compared to where I live... but only common sense and awareness of your surroundings will make you and your cameras safe. A bag left in the floor, no matter for how little time, is asking for it to be taken, be it in New York, Buenos Aires, London or Prague. BTW, as someone mentioned, your camera is of very little interest, and the thief will propably be very dissapointed when he opens the bag.

Thardy

11-25-2008, 04:07

I was standing next to my friend when he got his wallet snatched in the Paris subway a few years ago and lost 2000 Euros. There were 6 of them and they put of a "show" to distract him. It was impressive.

Yeah, I witnessed this several times in France and Italy. The "entertainment" was provided by people who I thought were native European. The little shows got annoying after seeing it a few times.

Those africans who swam over just seemed to mind their business selling stuff.

ClaremontPhoto

11-25-2008, 04:11

I just won an 'iPod' from a slot machine.

Except it's only a replica iPod. It's really a taser with the stun sent through the ear pods.

Now that would scare a thief if s/he found it first near the top of your bag...

BUT you don't need such measures. I live here and I can spot tourists from way off. Dress local, move local, eat and drink local. Blend in. Like said upthread wearing shorts and sandals is a giveaway, so is going into a cheap back street bar and asking for a Campari.

ClaremontPhoto

11-25-2008, 04:12

Those africans who swam over just seemed to mind their business selling stuff.

Do you think these Chinese people swim also?

And carry counterfeit DVD's with them?

Matt(1pt4)

11-25-2008, 04:43

Hand checking or developing film in country is completely unnecessary. I've traveled extensively with high speed (Neopan 1600, Delta 3200 etc) film and pushed film, and I've never had a roll fogged by any airport machine.

As for holding onto your valuables, the easiest way to avoid trouble is just don't carry very much stuff. A camera in hand, a lens in a pocket, passport and credit card in the money belt, and you'll be fine in places much more dangerous than Madrid. If you are really worried, just keep the number of your consulate handy; they can get you home again no matter what you've lost.

Have fun!

Austerby

11-25-2008, 04:43

wearing shorts and sandals is a giveaway, so is going into a cheap back street bar and asking for a Campari.

That's a new one on me. I'm rather partial to a campari and soda - I had no idea I'd immediately betray my origins by doing so. :bang:

Steve Bellayr

11-25-2008, 04:46

I sometimes use a non-descript shoulder bag I picked up in a thrift store. It looks slightly worn. Camera & lenses stored in pouches. It looks like a bag with maps and sandwiches. I carry a climbing carabiner & when the bag is not attached to my shoulder I can clip it to a table or chair that I am sitting on. The carabiner is excellent on handbags & computer bags, etc. With a little work you can rig something up to attach to your belt. Carabiners & small lengths of rop are available at climbing stores & they last forever. (You will not need a locking carabiner.)

chadmopix

11-25-2008, 13:36

I spent a little under a week in Madrid and felt relatively safe. However, I stayed very near to the Atocha train station. It was very central but some the the surrounding streets seemed to get a bit rougher as you wandered away. I happened across what a Red-light district not too far from our hotel (and promptly turned around I might add!) on a Friday evening, and that was the only time I felt uncomfortable with the people around me. I would be a little wary, but no more so than most other major cities.

I did see a small camera shop/studio on Paseo de las Delicias, which again, is only a block or two behind Atocha station. It was always closed when I went by so I'm not entirely sure of what services they have.

Madrid seemed very nice, but was a little difficult to get around to some of the more well-known attractions (if indeed that's what you're going to see) as they are very spread out across the city.

One final note, I found some of the workers in the train station and other 'tourist' hubs to be quite rude and unhelpful, so if you're fluent in Spanish it may be an advantage.

-Chad

Rey

11-25-2008, 13:45

Two years ago, I spent 3 weeks in Madrid and other cities in Spain. Compared to some larger cities in the States and Latin America, it's a cakewalk. Just keep your cameras close to your body at all times and be aware, which is just common sense at all times. Otherwise I wouldn't worry about it.

DxPhoto

11-25-2008, 16:46

Hi, Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.... I guess my subject line was too short and it was misleading... I just wanted to find out if Madrid is dangerous to tourists, especially if I go solo and don't speak the language. I didn't mean to offend anyone in Europe and I hope one day I will travel around Europe in a road trip....
Thanks again.... :)

gertf

11-25-2008, 16:54

DxPhoto: I'm sure you'll enjoy yourself!

demian

11-25-2008, 19:48

I agree with much above and so should you.

There is no violent crime as one hears of (and lives with) in the States.

It is always pickpocketing really and con-men (& women!!...& children!!!)

Spanish and Portuguese are the kindest people I have ever known. They do not have that provincial arrogance of Italians, whom I too adore...

Itlians will defend their pride as to why things do not work, etc. "oh we are a poor country, etc. (vis a vis, insecure)

Spanish simply say, "yes, it is like this...stupid, but it is.."And give you a grin..

Having travelled extensively 31+ countries and living in Europe as well for years now, it has become habit to cover/watch/protect your bag etc.. Never put your wallet in your back pocket, turn your bag in front of you and cover it with your arm, keep important items (passport, etc) well hidden so when your mind wanders (and it will!) you don't have to keep alert all the time.

It is like driving.. A lot to remember at first, but it all becomes second nature after a while.

When within metro or bus in the States people become so offended when I turn my bag away from them in habit as if I think they are a thief...Alas, this will be a habit for life I am afraid!

Backpacks on the back are a no-no.

I have known well travelled people who have had there wallets and items removed from within their bags/purse, and not known it as the thief re-zipped the bag and closed it *all* without them knowing about it. Even entire backpacks taken from beneath their own chair while sitting a moment..

Not Spain, but elsewhere in Europe. Italy, France, Praha..

You want something you can keep your arm over, across your body to swing around front when necessary..especially when concentrating on other things like photography. one can easily go into your bag as you are concentrating on other things. With something around your shoulder you can swing it around to your front and protect it as you take a shot.

This is my suggestion.

Above all, go relaxed, like you've been there. Sure its fine to ask questions, just be smart who you ask. goto tourist office or other business until you become more comfortable with the place and see who is who. Be aware of your surroundings and be smart. That's all.

Nothing can give you confidence/experience you need now, but don't become paranoid from some advice above as if you must be a spy trying to "fit in".

The future happens whether we worry about it or not. Just enjoy the ride and be aware of your surroundings. Pickpockets are very sly...it is really impressive..but don;t worry nobody is going to kock you over the head and run.

The worst that will happen is you'll get lost...so what?! It's the journey not the destination. right?

Have fun

elude

11-26-2008, 02:32

Be confident and don't look like a tourist. Have fun.

Pherdinand

11-26-2008, 03:02

photomoof

11-26-2008, 10:46

Some people just get robbed wherever they go. It is in their nature.

Paul T.

11-26-2008, 10:49

...ah, Italian design. It still rules.

sonofdanang

11-26-2008, 11:13

photomoof

11-26-2008, 11:18

And you were able to determine the legal status of these individuals using what method? Please.

They had on their swim suits, with the Algerian Swim Team logo.

Everywhere you go in Europe the Algerian Swim Team is milling about, raising money for the Olympics.

40oz

11-26-2008, 19:52

Seriously, where does the idea come from that it is somehow more dangerous where you vacation than where you live?

Gabriel M.A.

11-26-2008, 20:17

Some people just get robbed wherever they go. It is in their nature.

It is in their nature to get robbed? That ought to be an interesting gene.

Gabriel M.A.

11-26-2008, 20:20

Seriously, where does the idea come from that it is somehow more dangerous where you vacation than where you live?

It is often easier to perceive anything that you don't know or understand as more dangerous than that which you know or (you believe) you understand. And I say "you" in the general sense, not You "you".

It's...emm...in their nature.

photomoof

11-26-2008, 20:23

It is in their nature to get robbed? That ought to be an interesting gene.

I had a friend -- it was in his nature to get beaten up in bars. He would find the worst bully and sit down next to him.

Gabriel M.A.

11-26-2008, 20:26

I had a friend -- it was in his nature to get beaten up in bars. He would find the worst bully and sit down next to him.

If it was in his nature, then they ought to study him. But probably a psychologist will crack the code and point to some serious lack of self-esteem. Which (the esteem issue) I guess can be in somebody's nature. I guess. ::scratches head::

DxPhoto

01-02-2009, 19:09

Hi,

I did finish the trip and I must say people in Madrid are very very nice. I don't speak Spanish at all, with a little dictionary I was able to get around. Everyone was very willing to help me.

I didn't have much trouble in the subway either. The subway is clean and very easy to get around, without knowing much about Spanish.

Not dangerous at all :)

Did attend the show "El Mundo Femenino" and it was wonderful and it was free too. Madrid is very artistic city, bounding the rich history. It was just so nice. I wish I could be there longer and the weather could be nicer.

Thank you ZeMane. Too bad we didn't meet, but there must be other chances.

Happy new year too all.

-d

faris

01-02-2009, 21:15

I have travelled countless times through all the major cities and a quite a few provinces all over Europe many many times. never have i felt unsafe or have had anything stolen.

The US has illegal immigration too!

Madrid is a super place and the Spanish are a wonderful people..so enjoy
your trip. Be careful but not paranoid!

Have a safe and memorable trip.

ZeMane

01-02-2009, 23:57

Hi Dawei,

Glad to know you enjoyed your stay here in Madrid. It was a shame not being able to meet :confused: ... however there will be further opportunuties in the near future, sure.
BTW, you can join the European RFF Meeting, to be hold in Barcelona next april... the city is really beautiful, and hopefully the weather should be much better at that time of the year...

Any Madrid shots to show???

Best wishes for the new year 2009.
Regards,

Zé

peter_n

01-03-2009, 07:05

Is Barca playing at home the weekend of the meet?

Efra1

01-03-2009, 08:06

ClaremontPhoto

01-03-2009, 08:24

Is Barca playing at home the weekend of the meet?

You would never get tickets for Barca at home in Barcelona.

But a Barca match on a TV in a bar in Barcelona... you'd get some good photos of the fans without tickets.

Olsen

01-03-2009, 12:53

Interesting discussion, this; 'where is it safe to travel'. I will draw your attention to the Travel Reports and Warnings of 'Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada' available both in English (http://www.voyage.gc.ca/countries_pays/menu-eng.asp ) and French; (http://www.voyage.gc.ca/countries_pays/menu-fra.asp )

Generally, I agree with the assessments. Several Foreign Offices around the world issues similar Travel Reports, but I find this Canadian one good and balanced.

I have to smile of cause, of this on Norway; (http://www.voyage.gc.ca/countries_pays/report_rapport-eng.asp?id=225000 )

'... Avoid poorly lit areas, especially the streets behind Oslo's Central Railway Station after dark'.

- 'Poorly lit areas' are difficult to avoid in a country with 'polar darkness' some 2 - 3 months a year.

- 'avoid....the streets behind Oslo Central Railway Station' - an area which includes Oslo's main police station and happens to be the route my wife takes to work each morning - and back in the afternoon. - In the dark. A brave woman, my wife, - according to the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

For young travellers to Norway, I would rather warn against the hefty alcohol consumption on an ordinary Saturday night here in Oslo, and the violence it brings with it.

Further:

Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada have just recently issued an 'Avoid Non-Essential Travel' for parts of Malaysia; ' to the islands off the east coast of Sabah, including Sipadan and Langkayan islands where the kidnapping of foreigners has occurred in the past'.

- OK. I am going to another island off the Malaysian East coast; Tioman Island, - in April... I'll be fine, I am sure.

Reuters warns today that law and order has broken down - practically, in Guatemala and that petty crime is rampant, as well as civil war like conditions rage between drug cartels. And guns all over the place. A very unsafe situation for tourists. Conditions, I think, that most national foreign services should warn their citizens against. More so than warning against the potential danger of 'terrorists'. Generally, I would avoid, and warn against, Central and South America, - with certain clearly defined exceptions. Too much guns around.

ZeMane

01-04-2009, 00:46

I'm afraid that weekend Barça plays here in Madrid, actually in Getafe (http://maps.google.es/maps?f=q&hl=es&geocode=&q=Coliseum+Alfonso+Perez,+getafe&sll=40.396764,-3.713379&sspn=7.996964,14.150391&ie=UTF8&ll=40.326262,-3.715138&spn=0.007819,0.013819&z=16&g=Coliseum+Alfonso+Perez,+getafe), a suburb in the south...

19/04/2009 Getafe - Barcelona

As ClaremontPhoto suggested, it could be fun and interesting to watch the match at a bar in Barcelona...

Zé

Is Barca playing at home the weekend of the meet?

ZeMane

01-04-2009, 00:52

Hi, I´m in Madrid too, and we will meet in Barcelona in April,,,, where are the post for the European RFF Meeting ?

Reggards

Hola Efra1,

Here's the link to the Barcelona meeting thread (http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=934566). Hope to see you there.

salu2,

Zé

ClaremontPhoto

01-04-2009, 01:12

Olsen

01-04-2009, 01:44

The British Foreign Office offers this advice (http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travelling-and-living-overseas/travel-advice-by-country/europe/norway) about Norway.

I see that i could only bring 10kg of meat and cheese with me, and to be careful of eating mussels.

I think that this 'Travel Advice' from Commonwealth Foreign Office is accurate. I have been poisoned eating blueshells myself, so the warning is timely. Our strict drinking & driving laws are a nasty suprise to many foreigners here. - You get 21 days in jail if your blood contains more than 0,5 pro mille alcohol. You get heavily fined if you blood contains tracable alcohol at all when driving (tecnincally, the limit is 0,2 pro mille).

There is one inaccuracy here I would contest. Norway is not very expensive if you can deduct our VAT which you can get refunded when leaving Norway. For instance; check the prices here of Leica goods from the Leica importer that will grant you close to 20% (VAT) off these prices:

http://www.farnes.no/aspx/loginVnet.aspx?ReturnUrl=%2fDefault.aspx

And:

http://www.farnes.no/aspx/produkter.aspx?l=3&t=1387&g0=26&g1=49&g2=247&g3=488&visavdeling=&g0txt=&g1txt=Optikk&g2txt=Leica%20-%20Klikk%20her&g3txt=M-Optikk

Olsen

01-04-2009, 02:02

The advice say: '..You should be aware that credit cards are generally not as well accepted as a means of payment in Norwegian supermarkets and petrol stations as they are in the UK - but this situation is improving all the time. You can send money electronically to Norway via Forex, which has five offices in Oslo. Details of its opening hours and addresses can be found here (http://www.forex.no/). Money can also be sent visa Western Union, which has offices in Oslo and Bergen...

This is inaccurate. Credit cards have been available in super markets and gas stations for as long as I can remember. I have been traveling exstensively around all of Scandinavia for the last 25 years and can confirm that Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark were the first countries in Europe where you could travel around 'with no cash at all', only use credit cards. While both Forex and Western Union has limited operations here in Norway. This due to that the banks handles foreign exchange services - both cheaper and better particularly for people that have a credit card/bank account.

tom_uk

01-04-2009, 04:07

Generally, I would avoid, and warn against, Central and South America, - with certain clearly defined exceptions. Too much guns around.

My daughter spent about 4 months in 'southern' South America in the early part of 2008. She visited Chile, Peru, Bolivia & Argentina, mainly staying in hostels, using basic public transport, and had a fine time. Of course, those countries may well not be the same as 'northern' Suth America, e.g. Colombia.

The only truly bizarre thing that happened to her was that she visited an old silver mine in Bolivia where the miners would do their thing for visitors. However, she had to take the essential supplies that the miners needed with her: a) coca leaves, and b) dynamite. Both of these could be bought in the local village market. Follow this link: http://www.travelblog.org/South-America/Bolivia/Potosi-Department/Potosi/blog-265723.html for a picture of her holding her dynamite....

stefan_dinu

01-04-2009, 06:14

...
As it's been said, 90% of the robbers in Madrid are foreigners, most of them coming for eastern europe, Rumania, mainly. They almost never assault, but get your things and run away. Don't trust foreign little children neither. Eastern europe gangs use them to rob, so beware.
....

I was reading this topic especially to find assertion like the one above.
For me, as a Romanian, is very sad when I read that. It is simply not true. 99,99% of the robbers are gypsies. They come from INDIA!!! Not Romania. They spent some time in Romania, and now they are European gypsies. Think about this: those robbers go from Spain to America to rob and steal. They become Robbers from Spain? Is this how it is working.

And to hear something funny, in Rajasthan (where the gypsy people are coming from- north west of India), they all believe that gypsy people are in fact Spanish. From Spain. :) Isn't this funny? Truth being said, their appearance is much, much more closer to Spanish than Romanian, which have lighter colored skin and hair. :)

And to make things clear, the reason for wrinting all this here is very strong for me. Because this type of information makes it difficult for me to pursue my passion. A lot of people from ebay or from here, had suspitions about me when I wanted to buy something. Of course, he is from Romania, better avoid him. I am not posing as a victim but this is true. For me it was much more difficult to buy a camera. And impossible to sell one. :) I got stuck with over 24 cameras for this reason.

And to be on topic, Madrid is very safe from my point of view. I traveled a lot and I found Spain on the safe side, but like anywhere else you have to pay attention to your stuff.

iamzip

01-04-2009, 06:30

Camera armor just released a strap with embedded steel cable:

http://store.made-products.com/products/toughstrap-safegrip-set

Other than that, I haven't been to Madrid but was pickpocketed in Italy, by two girls that couldn't have been much older than 7. Fortunately I had all my cash / traveller's checks in a travel wallet worn around my neck and under my shirt, I only had my international student ID in the wallet. So since they didn't get any cash they had the gall to come back to me, hand me the wallet and ask for a reward like they "found" it!

So if Madrid is anything like Rome as far as pick pockets, yes, just be careful, keep nothing in your pockets, and use a travel wallet.

Oh, no one bothered my A1

Pherdinand

01-04-2009, 06:38

Stefan,

I don't think the comment was meant t hurt your feelings, and I also don't think the comment was referring to the ethnicity of the thieves, but more where "they are coming from" i.e. which country they are coming from, what is their passport saying, what language they are speaking.
It is really sad, i agree with you, because of some infamous few we all get problems (i also have the red passport).
However, on one hand i can understand the people. That's how people are. They generalize in order to reduce the risk.
It is similar of what you were writing by the way, when you said, they are "gipsies and come from INDIA".
You certainly don't want to say that all people from India should be banished because they are thieves? But for simplicity, you just said, they come from India.
I have a very good Indian friend, who happens to be one of the most honest persons i've ever met. He was rather surprised of the bad image of the gipsies here in Europe and almost ashamed of having the same roots.
But then again, it is also not true that all gipsies are thieves, far from it.

So, don't take it as an offense on yourself. People generalize. We all do.

ClaremontPhoto

01-04-2009, 06:40

People generalize. We all do.

No, many of us do not.

Pherdinand

01-04-2009, 06:53

well, i think we all do at some level. Look at it like this example, Jon:
Guns are banned. (i mean in most countries, except some well known examples.) Why? because of the few that would abuse them.
You cannot take liquids in the hand luggage. Why? Are all liquids dagnerous? No, it's just because a few bad guys tried something, now we all are forbidden.
Most if not all laws are based on generalizations, to reduce a risk.
another example: Somebody from a "less wealthy" country like Ukraine needs a visa to enter Portugal. Why ? All Ukrainians are criminals or something?
Of course not, but this is how the ones in power try to reduce the risk. By applying rules to all people of a "category".

It sucks, but people are not angels.
Exept myself, of course :angel:

ferider

01-04-2009, 06:54

I was reading this topic especially to find assertion like the one above.
For me, as a Romanian, is very sad when I read that. It is simply not true. 99,99% of the robbers are gypsies. They come from INDIA!!!

Stefan,

not only is post #72 wrong in its facts, but it is racist and offensive.

Roland.

ClaremontPhoto

01-04-2009, 07:13

well, i think we all do at some level.

No, again, many of us do not generalize.

If you have stereotypes based on ethnicity, or skin color, or whatever, and apply those to people you meet do not tell yourself that "we all do it". (And so that's OK.)

Many of us do not do it.

iamzip

01-04-2009, 07:17

No, again, many of us do not generalize.

If you have stereotypes based on ethnicity, or skin color, or whatever, and apply those to people you meet do not tell yourself that "we all do it". (And so that's OK.)

Many of us do not do it.

Scientifically speaking, while many of us would like to believe that we are completely unbiased, it has been shown that most people do have some inherent bias. I don't quite remember where I read this, but I did read it.

p.s. this is getting off subject, the OP asked for travel advice and perhaps we should restrict the discussion to that.

Pherdinand

01-04-2009, 07:20

i never said it's OK.
But hey, whatever, Jon. I see it is a too sensitive subject for you.

ClaremontPhoto

01-04-2009, 07:24

iamzip:

Pherdinand says we all generalize.

And you say most of us have some bias (but you cannot remember where you read that).

Doesn't this sound rather weak?

ferider

01-04-2009, 07:27

Pherdi,

in the > 10 years I have lived in the US I have never heard it mentioned here. But racial prosecution of Sinti and Roma has been a big issue in European history, including an estimated half million people being killed in German concentration camps.

A very sad subject really.

Moving back to the OP's question:

Madrid is not more dangerous than any other big European city. Enjoy your trip.

Roland.

Pherdinand

01-04-2009, 07:34

is there one single nation that did NOT commit some kind of genocide during our short history as human race? I can't think of any. First person to come up with an answer, can have a free miniature 220 microF capacitor (fits and revives minolta x-300).:)
It's just a matter of how long ago it was and how many are left behind to complain.
Would be better to learn from it, instead of blaming each other. But i guess it's easier this way.

iamzip

01-04-2009, 07:54

iamzip:

Pherdinand says we all generalize.

And you say most of us have some bias (but you cannot remember where you read that).

Doesn't this sound rather weak?

*sigh*

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/magazine/33738529.html

"Psychologists say we're biased toward the perception that other people are more biased than we are."

I'm not arguing one way or the other, just reporting what I read.

stefan_dinu

01-04-2009, 08:25

Stefan,

not only is post #72 wrong in its facts, but it is racist and offensive.

Roland.

I agree that what I wrote could be read like this.
But I am not a racist. I do have gypsies friends and even people that work for me. But there is a problem with criminality. In Romania, while they are 10% of the population now, they make 85% of the crimes here. Especially theft and robbery. These are facts. Why is happening here, while in the native country (rajasthan) they are very friendly and is the last place on earth where you can get robbed? I don't know. So, it must be our fault because they are not integrated. Maybe, but this is another issue. And this is speculative. But the facts (the overwhelming percentage) are real.
Another fact is that after joining the EU, the criminality in Romania was lower, because most of the gypsy people left for richer countries. To work, beg or steal. Those are facts. I saw them with both my eyes stealing and begging around Europe.
In conclusion, to help you check the facts, I repeat them:
- gypsy come from north of India (widely accepted fact)
- in Romania most gypsy are not criminals;
- a large majority of criminal activity in Romania is done by gypsy;
- in all the western countries I saw gypsy people begging (Paris, Amsterdam, Rome, London, Barcelona, Madrid, Valencia, etc.) and even stealing (in Rome);
- every week we see at news plains full of gypsy people sent away from Spain, Italy and France because of criminal activity.

If you ever come to Bucharest, take your Leica and best lenses and I will drive you in the middle of the gypsy area. If you make it out of there with everything in place, I will pay for your trip. It is possible you make it. But highly improbable. ;)

And what are the wrong facts you talk about in my first post?

Beniliam

01-04-2009, 09:12

Im from Madrid. I consider Madrid like a safe place. There are places that maybe can be dangerous, normally these places are outskirts, but depends the hours can be localized in the center of the city. The risk/danger is a very subjetive perception, you can walk for example in Montera Street, that is a busy street, in the real center of the city and dont feel danger, but around you can walk a pimp, a prostitute, a policeman or a kid. Use the common sense for move around the city. Normally, spanish people are communicative, and can help you if you need it. One of the best things of Madrid, is that you are very near to other venerable cities like Toledo, Avila, Segovia, Cuenca, El Escorial, Salamanca...

ClaremontPhoto

01-04-2009, 09:16

Beniliam:

It is good to see you back here, talking good sense.

gertf

01-04-2009, 09:53

is there one single nation that did NOT commit some kind of genocide during our short history as human race?

Norway springs to mind..

photomoof

01-04-2009, 10:03

Norway springs to mind..

You do not count the brutal cruelty of the vikings? (see c.790 to c. 1050.)

Also review King Olaf.

gertf

01-04-2009, 10:14

photomoof

01-04-2009, 10:50

photomoof, I'd think the brutal cruelty of the first Christians of Norway worse in many respects, but point taken. I'd forgotten that Norway was in fact a unified kingdom before the unions with Sweden and Denmark, my bad

Even gentle Denmark was a major force in establishing new world slave trading. Cruelty is a fact of human nature, it would appear. (Denmark to its credit was the first modern nation to attempt to abolish slave trading, although like the US, it was slow on the uptake)

endustry

01-04-2009, 11:51

javimm

01-04-2009, 11:54

Stefan, when I was talking about romanians gangs, I was only talking about romanian gangs and not referring to all romanian people in general. There are many more romanians here in Spain that work very hard to make a living, and those are a many more than the robbers. I wasn't walking about race either.

I apologize if what I said hurt your in any way. That wasn't my intention.

And yes, everybody generalize. When you say that the Summicron 50/2 is a great lens, you say it based on your particular sample. You'd have to try all 'crons been made to say that, but nobody has.

For the OP: I'm glad your like Madrid. Sure you had a great time :)

eia41

01-04-2009, 14:17

I am relieved that DxPhoto asked our advice only on security in Madrid (or any European city for that matter)

In the late 50's and most of the 60's, the advice given by mothers/aunts/friends etc, to yound American girls en-route on a holiday to Europe was to "Watch out for those young lecherous Southern Europeans intend on depriving you of your virginity and possibly getting you pregnant"!!

Well, how the world has changed...

photomoof

01-04-2009, 14:40

Madrid is the only major Western city I have been in where a guy actually tried to open my camera bag in broad daylight as it hung from my shoulder. Luckily my wife was paying more attention than I was and called him off quickly (I then told him in Spanish what he could go do with his mother.)

This said, I didn't find Madrid to be dangerous and I am someone who likes to go into off-the-beaten-path neighborhoods. Just stay sharp and you should be fine.

My favorite happened in Saville.

I watched a elderly man with a cane walk up to a rental car, stopped at a light, reach in and remove a purse from the front seat passenger, then hobble away from the scene, the tourists in the car frozen in fear/inaction.

MickH

01-04-2009, 14:46

Saville?

Was it this bloke?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Savile

johnastovall

01-04-2009, 14:47

Don't see anything in the U.S. State Department travel information that would cause me any worry.

Spain (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1024.html#crime)

I would feel much safer there than in our southern neighbor, Mexico (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/pa/pa_3028.html).

Olsen

01-05-2009, 07:21

You do not count the brutal cruelty of the vikings? (see c.790 to c. 1050.)

Also review King Olaf.

You will hardly find any historical facts documenting that the vikings were any more cruel than the other peoples of Europe at their time.

King Olav? You mean King Olav The Saint?

He was killed by 'the farmers' at the Battle of Stiklestad at year 1033, - in a sort of revolution, due to that he tried to implement 'Christianity and a Common Law Equal to Everyone'.

The only cruel thing King Olav did was to 'pull down London Bridge'.

- We are very sorry about the bridge, - it won't happen again...

photomoof

01-05-2009, 07:32

Actually in the US we do not speak Norwegian, except in the Midwest, so it is usually Olaf (Óláfr Tryggvason).

Olsen

01-05-2009, 08:15

Olaf (Óláfr Tryggvason).

Oh, that fellow. He was most famous for his enormous long ships. First a 'snicke' called 'The Crane', of 30 'rooms', with two oarsmen per room, that is 60 oarsmen. Then he built 'The Long Snake' ('Ormen Lange'), possibly as long as 54 meters and with a crew of 130 men.

Olav Tryggvason fell at 'The Battle of Svolder' (possibly Øresund) when jumping overboard with 'two chests full of gold' under his arms.

Yes, Olav Tryggvason had some nasty ways of convincing people to 'take to Christianity'. Like making them swollow snakes. But some of the 'refusers' he pardoned. Like the guy with this long and golden hair they were about to behead. He was held by his hair, but pulled back his head before the axe hit his neck. The guy holding his hair got his arms chopped off. This was such a nasty trick that Olav Tryggvason pardoned him...