Leica engraving mistakes [Archive] - Rangefinderforum.com

colyn

11-22-2008, 18:05

I'm wondering if Leica bodies, lens, etc that have engraving mistakes are really considered more valuable than a properly engraved version.

I just saw a Elmar 9cm on eBay that is engraved "Elma" and the seller is asking more than the usual going price for its condition..

Below is my IIIc which is engraved "Gern" instead of "Germany"

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3051/2828404367_60c1c671da_o.jpg

elshaneo

11-22-2008, 18:32

I've never heard of this kind of engraving mistakes by Leica, it is certainly very rare I guess, but honestly I would not buy one as I think that it will somehow sell and have more value than the normal ones because of its rarity, I might be wrong though...

PhotoMat

11-22-2008, 19:30

Are you sure it isn't a Russian engraving mistake?

colyn

11-22-2008, 20:03

Are you sure it isn't a Russian engraving mistake?

If you are referring to my IIIc it's a genuine Leica and not a Russian fake. The Elmar on eBay is also genuine..

Fabrice2

11-22-2008, 23:09

Was the IIIc engravings handmade in the 40s?? Because the "GERN" looks handmade and the D is wider at the bottom compared to a IIIf... ?

gertf

11-22-2008, 23:58

A quick google search for leica iiic images appears to show that most do not have 'Germany' engraved, such as this one sold by kevincameras.

http://kevincameras.com/gallery/album899/leica_3c_373895_2

Or this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Leica-IIIc-Red-Curtain-Rare-WarTime-camera_W0QQitemZ290275324723QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFil m_Cameras?hash=item290275324723&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

chippy

11-23-2008, 00:37

the early IIIc didnt have Germany engraved-the later ones did. there is nothing obviously fake about the camera at all. the 'D' looks normal as well.

as good as Leica are they did make mistakes...but whether this makes them more valuable or collectable is arguable (i doubt it in this case). if it was a coin or stamp misprinted/stamped it certainly does make them more valuable and colectable, but i suspect with leica SM camera the opposite is possible...mainly due to the fact that some/many of SM's are/have been faked and now people are suspicious/paranoid of everything that is out of the ordinary (sometimes for good reason no doubt) and prefer to pay for something that wont arouse critisim from others. just a thought

gertf

11-23-2008, 00:42

chippy, as long as it works, I'd gladly pay less for a camera with funky engravings :)

chippy

11-23-2008, 00:47

wouldnt bother me at all either, gertf. a bonus if it can be had cheaper!

edit; just to add, it does make an interesting talking point (or dull if you are explaining it to someone that doesn't give a rats lol), to think how it happend...perhaps some new young lad was employed and the lunch bell rang so he stopped mid way through engraving :)

Roger Hicks

11-23-2008, 00:52

chippy

11-23-2008, 01:17

Yes, Leicas with engraving mistakes are sought after by some collectors, precisely because they are so rare. There is no detail so trivial that it is not quicken the heart of a Leica collector somewhere. Think of the way stamp collectors prize mis-engraved stamps, too. The parallel is exact.

Cheers,

Roger

yes i tend to agree Roger, which is why i likend it to coins and stamps as well. it 'should' make them more valuable...and perhaps it does in certain circles of collectors...but i wonder if the vaule of such cameras isnt undermined lately given all the negative critisism we hear, when ever they see something out of the ordinary and instanly call 'fake'/ it must have some impact on the market i think...

Roger Hicks

11-23-2008, 01:26

yes i tend to agree Roger, which is why i likend it to coins and stamps as well. it 'should' make them more valuable...and perhaps it does in certain circles of collectors...but i wonder if the vaule of such cameras isnt undermined lately given all the negative critisism we hear, when ever they see something out of the ordinary and instanly call 'fake'/ it must have some impact on the market i think...

Dear Andrew,

I don't think so.

I've known quite a few serious Leica collectors for decades now, and not many of them are taken in very often. The criticism is usually (a) of obvious fakes that would not deceive anyone or (b) from people who fancy themselves far greater experts than they are or (c) taken from dubious internet sources -- or, of course, any combination of the above.

Cheers,

R.

chippy

11-23-2008, 02:02

an excellent breakdown Roger, you are a skilled writer! you even made my smile broadly. :)

i guess we could say that many knowledgeable, long term or experienced collectors would pay more. however it is still possible that a number of possible less experienced buyers whom rely on some internet sources would be hesitant or discouraged from throwing their hat in the ring to bid/buy. whether the absence of these people in the market effect the end value of the camera...? i guess we never know

jody36

11-23-2008, 02:34

ClaremontPhoto

11-23-2008, 03:17

...from people who fancy themselves far greater experts than they are...

This brings to mind the chairperson of the Ferrari owners' club who was shown photos of a real Ferrari and a high-quality reproduction.

Without hesitation he spotted the impostor and wrote at length about the details which were incorrect.

But he had got them the wrong way round; and so was actually nit-picking the real car.

bottley1

11-23-2008, 03:21

I own a Leica 90mm f2 ASPH Apo-Summicron M, and it used to be engraved "po-Summicron" on the lens hood. I was pretty proud of that lens, i can tell you. Well, it went for 6-bit encoding to Solms, and the buggers put the "A" back on. I was well annoyed. :eek: I find it now impossible to "bond" with the "new" lens...... :(

Roger Hicks

11-23-2008, 04:25

This brings to mind the chairperson of the Ferrari owners' club who was shown photos of a real Ferrari and a high-quality reproduction.

Without hesitation he spotted the impostor and wrote at length about the details which were incorrect.

But he had got them the wrong way round; and so was actually nit-picking the real car.

Dear Jon,

Wonderful story!

I've done three or four books on Ferraris, and there's a name for people like that in the classic car world: rivet counters.

The trouble is, the people at Ferrari often didn't count too accurately...

Cheers,

Roger

colyn

11-23-2008, 17:16

edit; just to add, it does make an interesting talking point (or dull if you are explaining it to someone that doesn't give a rats lol), to think how it happend...perhaps some new young lad was employed and the lunch bell rang so he stopped mid way through engraving :)

It seems most of the mistakes I've come across are on cameras etc that were made 1946-47....maybe new employees after the war who were not very well trained???

RF_newbie

11-23-2008, 21:27

i love it Colyn.

chippy

11-24-2008, 00:30

It seems most of the mistakes I've come across are on cameras etc that were made 1946-47....maybe new employees after the war who were not very well trained???

yeah me too colyn (and jody), and if not mistakes then variations of a camera model i often find (not specifacally leitz but other makers) using pre-war parts ect (more so late 45 and 46 for built up camera i think)...it does make it interesting, i can only imagine what it was like back in those days. no doubt leica had new workers and mistakes would have been made. it must of been an unsettling or unsure time, more so for young people...the reasons could be endless for mistakes, people, electicity, whatever! to stretch the imagination one could even think that perhaps someone was at the machine engraving and a new authority was overlooking and he felt uncomfortable to be seen engraving Germany ...bit of a stretch but you never know

looks a gem (or Gern) of a camera though...;)

John Lawrence

11-24-2008, 05:44

Well just to buck the trend - I've got a Leica IIIa from the '30s that does not have the DRP / DBP engraved on the top plate in the usual place, or indeed in any place!

All original as well, so goodness only knows who / what wobbled on that day of production!

martin_t

11-24-2008, 14:07

That's probably what happened. The worker engraved
the wrong letter, checked with his/her supervisor and
got a thumbs up. 'Gern' is an adverb, meaning gladly
or with pleasure. Probably produced a lighthearted
moment, welcome in those very tough times.

Sherry told me once that she dislikes working on the
immediate post-war IIICs. 'Some of them just don't work right'.
I discovered this firsthand with my 4026xx. The shutter
gave me fits at first. with the first curtain insisting on losing
tension. This went on for week or so and then it just
straightened itself out. No problems since. It's likely a
curtain spring that wasn't anchored to the shaft exactly
right, then finally took hold.

Mine has no 'Germany' engraved and no writing at all
on the bottom instruction plate.

LeicaTom

11-24-2008, 14:26

It`s not about engraving but all the #396xxx and #397xxx issue Stepped Rewind Platform Leica IIIC`s
(Dec 1945 to June 1946) have the instruction plates instaled UPSIDE DOWN! (or backwards!)

Very unique and confusing for many I`m sure ;)

Tom

colyn

11-24-2008, 16:15

i love it Colyn.

As do I..

It makes for interesting conversation when I show it..

Gabriel M.A.

11-24-2008, 17:39

If there is something that makes it "collectible", it would be a "mistake" like this.

I think you should put it up on eBoy with a starting bid price of $10,000.

There is no telling what a professional collector would pay! Merry Christmas.

:D

colyn

11-24-2008, 17:42

icebear

11-24-2008, 18:30

Maybe it was engraved by a Russion POW in the Leica factory in Wetzlar - looks pretty Russian to me :cool:.

CLE-RF

12-01-2008, 15:15

Hi all, for some time now there has an M3 with M2 engravings been listed on the great auction site, here (http://cgi.ebay.nl/Leica-M3-body-black-paint-lacquer-on-the-list_W0QQitemZ370106410962QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Ph otography_Film_Cameras_ET?hash=item370106410962&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A4%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318).

http://i9.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/b0/fe/9d32_1.JPG

The camera is genuine, as it comes with a number of Leitz documents ensuring authenticity.

Seems no black M3 collector is interested though, since it's been around for quite some time now on the auction site.

Only goes to show, Leica did make mistakes, even quite large ones like this...

dll927

12-01-2008, 16:01

As long as somebody is sure it's really an M3!!

There have been occasional stories of postage stamps being misprinted before somebody discovered the mistakes. In at least a couple of cases, it made the misprinted ones go sky-high in price for collectors. Probably nowdays they would just print a few million more of the "mistakes" to prevent that from happening.

But M2s and M3s were made at the same time, so it figures one of two might have been mislabeled --- or mis-engraved.