looking for affordable new RF

[Rudolphono]

Hi.

Im looking for a new 35mm rangefinder for action MTB pictures, night exposures, portraits, architecture and detail shots for every day use. (small and light)
I prefere a complete mechanical camera. A exposure meter would be nice.
Vignetting and distortion ... i don`t care. (i love toycameras):angel:

I need affordable and fast lenses:
for the beginning: 50mm lens and wide-angle-lens 21-28mm
later: full frame fisheye 12-15mm, and a ~90mm portrait lens

Is there a affordable solution for me?
About 1000€ (1260$) for the camera and a fast 50mm + 21-28mm wideangle lens would be nice.
Thanks for your help and sorry for my shool english again.

Ralle

[Fred Burton]

You are in M6 range, but fast and wide lenses are usually expensive. Perhaps a used CV R2 with a couple of CV lenses. You'll have to use an external finder for the wide end, though. I love my R2 with the 50 1.5 Nokton.

[ferider]

Welcome Ralle.

Leica M2 (around US 600), CV 50/1.5 and 28/1.9 (US 300 each) should get you there. It doesn't get much better than this, and 28 is usable on an M2. Your English is fine.

Cheers,

Roland.

[payasam]

I find myself agreeing with both Fred and Roland.

[meven]

How about a Bessa R2M or R3M with CV Nokton 50/1.5 or Canon 50/1.4 and CV Ultron 28/1.9 after that you might have enough spare cash for a CV Skopar 21/4 or Super Wide Heliar 15/4.5.

On top of that, compare to the M2 option, you'll have a built-in meter.

[sanmich]

Hi Ralle

I have not used the CV Nokton, and I know lots of people rave about it.
I would advice a canon 50mm f/1.4 which doesn't stop to amaze me (I guess the price is around the nokton too, around 300$).

I have a VC 28mm 1.9 for sale. Contact me if you are interested.

I will forgive you about your English only if you forgive me about mine...:)

Take care and welcome to the forum.

Michael

[Rudolphono]

Hi.

Yes, the CV cams are nice.
I´m in love with the R4 at the moment.
The only differece between the R4M and the R4A is the shutter?
What´s exactly the difference for me?

All the nice lenses got these M 39 connection.
For example the Nokton 50mm and the Super Wide Heliar 15 mm.
Can i use them for the R4 without loosing quality.
Are there better lenses for the R4?

I can`t find something on the german Voigtländer Homepage about this problem.

Thanks for your help.

Ralle

[mabelsound]

The R4M is all manual and the shutter will work without batteries; the R4A has AE and the shutter is electronically controlled. I have the R4A and it's a very well made, pleasing-to-use camera! LTM lenses work flawlessly with an adapter--there should be no decrease in picture quality at all.

[ferider]

I would advise against using a 50/1.5 on the R4* at least wide open and close up. Effective baselength might be too short. Other than that, LTM/M adapters work great.

Roland.

[Uwe_Nds]

Ralle,
Check out www.fotopartner.de - they've got good offers: "Voigtländer Tauschaktion-Details" at the bottom of their page linked to their "Sonderaktion":
R4A or R4M with the 4.0/21 Skopar & Adapter for 699 EUR.
Add a Nokton 1.5/50 for 299 EUR and you are still (just) within your budget.

Cheers,
Uwe

[Rudolphono]

Effective baselength might be too short.

Im sorry, what's that supposed to mean?

@ Uwe_Nds Thanks for the info. Nice Price.


Gruß Ralle

[Uwe_Nds]

Ralle,
The baselength is more or less the distance from the centre of the viewfinder to the centre of the small rangefinder window right of it.
Effective baselength is then the baselength multiplied by the viewfinder magnification.
A larger effective baselength is more accurate to focus.

Schöne Grüße
Uwe

[ferider]

Im sorry, what's that supposed to mean?

@ Uwe_Nds Thanks for the info. Nice Price.

Gruß Ralle

A rangefinder is limited in its accuracy. Generally, the closer you focus, the faster and longer the lens, the more accuracy is required. "Effective baselength" (or "EBL") of a rangefinder is "physical baselength" (the distance between the two rangefinder windows) x "viewfinder magnification". The longer the EBL of a camera is, the easier you can focus long and fast lenses at close focus. For the 50/1.5, the R4* EBL is just too small. Simply put, if you use that combo, you risk out of focus shots.

See also, for instance: http://www.nemeng.com/leica/031b.shtml or http://www.cameraquest.com/leica.htm.

Gruß

Roland.

[Rudolphono]

Oh, ok, that wouldn't be good.
Thanks for the explanation.
Is there another good 50mm lens for the R4A I can use?


Ralle

[ferider]

Its not that you can not use the Nokton on the R4, Ralle, just not at f1.5 and close up. At f2 it will be OK, or at 3m and onwards. Depends what you want to use it for. At infinity all rangefinders are accurate ! :)

I guess a smaller 50, like the 50/2 Heliar, 50/2.5 Color Skopar, an M-Hexanon 50/2, a Summicron, etc, are good options too. Also, a smaller lens will be less visible in the viewfinder.

Best,

Roland.

[mabelsound]

What people mean is that, at a very wide aperture, a lens has a very shallow depth of focus, and unless a rangefinder has a nice long baselength, the focus is thus liable to be a bit inaccurate. You will have no trouble focusing that f/1.5 at smaller apertures--but wide open you may have a few blurry pics.

In actual practice, I find the R4*'s baselength to be plenty long.

[Rudolphono]

Ok, now i am a little bit dizzy.
If I'm using most of the time the 50mm; 21/25 or 28mm and the 15 mm lens.
What is the right CV for me?

R4: tiny 50mm viewfinder-frame, big one for 21mm, viewfinder external for 15mm
R3: big viewfinder for 50mm, 21mm + 15mm viewfinder external
R2: (like R3)



Thanks again.

Ralle

Edit: I think I`ve got it!

R2 + 50mm + 35mm +15mm lens

[thomasw_]

I agree with Roland about the M2 and a faster 50. You will be frustrated using a faster 50 or longer lens on any M mount body with a smaller EBL. I recommend picking up your M2 and lenses used. For a 50, I'd go with a canon 50/1,4 or a 50/1,2 if you can find a deal. The 28/1,9 is a great lens but big.

[whitecat]

Get a Zeiss Ikon 35.

[ferider]

OK. I understand the dizzyness. Let me try to un-roll it, by picking the lenses first:

Like that:

1) You want a fast general purpose around or less than US 300, 50mm lens. Really, the only good choices are Canon 50/1.4 or Nokton 50/1.5.

2) wide angle: 21/25 cann't be bought (yet) faster than f2.8. If you want fast, 28 is your only choice, and the 28/1.9 is affordable and great.

3) Then, the next logical choice is either 21 and/or 15. There are really only the CV 21 and 15 lenses in your price range. I personally would only go with the 15. 50/28/15 is a great progression (factor 1.8).

Then pick a camera that can handle fast 50 and 28 without external viewfinder, frameline or not doesn't really matter. Add an external finder for the 15.

This is why I came up with M2, as it's the cheapest if you are patient (there was one in the classifieds in your price range today). But R2*, ZI, Hexar, M4-2 and M4-P (and of course more expensive Leicas) are possible, too. Hexar, ZI & M4-P have 28 framelines.

Makes sense ? Cheers,

Roland.

PS: then again, you could buy an M2 and (only) 35/1.2 and be done with it :) ;)

Ok, now i am a little bit dizzy.
If I'm using most of the time the 50mm; 21/25 or 28mm and the 15 mm lens.
What is the right CV for me?

R4: tiny 50mm viewfinder-frame, big one for 21mm, viewfinder external for 15mm
R3: big viewfinder for 50mm, 21mm + 15mm viewfinder external
R2: (like R3)



Thanks again.

Ralle

[payasam]

For once, Roland, I must disagree. Ralle's aims include "portraits ... and detail shots". Logic, to me, would suggest a lens in the 75 to 105 range.

[sanmich]

For once, Roland, I must disagree. Ralle's aims include "portraits ... and detail shots". Logic, to me, would suggest a lens in the 75 to 105 range.

I think Ralle himself said he was willing to start with a 50 (which BTW can be a great portrait FL).

The detail thing do address the issue of minimal focusing distance. The canon may not be the best lens for that with its 1m limit. I think the Nokton is also limited (0.9?). I don't see other affordable fast 50's with close focus at 0.7 (Now that I think about it, it's a bit strange, although fast+close focus may be stretching the lens design)

[ferider]

For once, Roland, I must disagree. Ralle's aims include "portraits ... and detail shots". Logic, to me, would suggest a lens in the 75 to 105 range.

Mukul, I would completely agree with you for myself, loving teles and having a whole collection. I just thought they were excluded.

Cheers,

Roland.

[payasam]

Roland, Ralle says "a ~90mm portrait lens" -- not to begin with but "later". Being a conservative sort of fellow, I'd say a 50 and a wide should be followed not by a super-wide but by a ~90mm.

[Rudolphono]

Thanks a lot for your help.
I reflected about all the possibilities with different focal length.
And I think I need a 15mm, 28mm, 50mm and a portrait lens with more than 50mm.
The Voigtlaender doesn't have a 28mm frameline.
So its absolutely essential for me to buy a Zeiss Ikon. :angel:

ferider ... you were talking about a 28/1.9.
I only found 28/2 lenses.
What lens are you talking about exaktly?

Ralle

[ferider]

Hallo Ralle,

the older version of the CV fast 28mm Ultron. f1.9 and Leica Screw Mount. Not available new anymore (discontinued) but available on the the used market. Looks like this:

http://ferider.smugmug.com/photos/255931836_8xVHu-L-1.jpg

Cheers,

Roland.